Trial by Folly: The Arianne Martell Reread Project [TWOW Arianne I spoilers]

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I mostly blame Doran for the communication breakdown. Arianne is his heir and needs to know his plans, whatever her shortcomings may be. The only justification for not telling her would be if Doran were convinced that she was such a liability that she had to be disinherited. If that were so, then it should be done publicly, with the agreement of his vassals.

Being Queen of Westeros would have been no sinecure either. Queens have households to manage, and often act as regents or diplomats. Again, he should have been educating her.

As I see it, Doran needed everybody to believe he and Dorne were weak. The only one who apparently knew what Doran was up to, was Oberyn. The most people shares a secret, the most likely is such secret to end up being common knowledge.

Do it! :drool:

Ok. I'll finish with my Dany/Cersei essay (for the upcoming re-reading) and I'll make a re-read of SunTzu first (which is rather short) and see what we can find. :)

[Chebyshov]

I mostly blame Doran for the communication breakdown. Arianne is his heir and needs to know his plans, whatever her shortcomings may be. The only justification for not telling her would be if Doran were convinced that she was such a liability that she had to be disinherited. If that were so, then it should be done publicly, with the agreement of his vassals.

Being Queen of Westeros would have been no sinecure either. Queens have households to manage, and often act as regents or diplomats. Again, he should have been educating her.

I agree that Doran (being the adult) should have communicated a whole lot better. Granted, he had no idea that she was nervous about her birthright, and we do see him teaching her some lessons ("words are like arrows..."), but it was far too passive, which is pretty much his Achilles heel.

From his POV, Arianne likely started acting out a whole lot once she was 14, 2 years before he planned on telling her. Their relationship had to have taken a nose-dive, and he saw his really angry daughter growing close with people for whom he had legitimate reasons to fear their abilities to keep a secret. Maybe he blamed a lot of his strained relationship with Arianne on Mellario leaving? Meaning he probably took it a bit personally, but didn't feel like he could offer any comfort to his daughter.

At the end of the day though, he sized her up wrong. She is so much his daughter, and absolutely could keep a secret. The problem was that neither one of them would address the tension. Had Arianne ever laid the birthright claim at his feet in the 9 years, I don't doubt he would have come clean about Viserys. She thought Doran hated her. To know how much he cared would have set things straight. Conversely, had Doran understood for one second where Arianne's behavior was coming from, he would have reached out more and eased her concerns.

So while Doran is the parent, and this is more his fault than hers, neither one was coming from an unreasonable place.

Ok. I'll finish with my Dany/Cersei essay (for the upcoming re-reading) and I'll make a re-read of SunTzu first (which is rather short) and see what we can find. :)

Yes! I can't wait :cheers: .

Also, loving the av. Was this before or after "your father's lands are beautiful"?

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Also, loving the av. Was this before or after "your father's lands are beautiful"?

After. He hit his head so hard that he doesn't remember anything.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I agree that Doran (being the adult) should have communicated a whole lot better. Granted, he had no idea that she was nervous about her birthright, and we do see him teaching her some lessons ("words are like arrows..."), but it was far too passive, which is pretty much his Achilles heel.

From his POV, Arianne likely started acting out a whole lot once she was 14, 2 years before he planned on telling her. Their relationship had to have taken a nose-dive, and he saw his really angry daughter growing close with people for whom he had legitimate reasons to fear their abilities to keep a secret. Maybe he blamed a lot of his strained relationship with Arianne on Mellario leaving? Meaning he probably took it a bit personally, but didn't feel like he could offer any comfort to his daughter.

I think Doran still sees Arianne as the young girl that she was (like Hotah also seems to do), not the woman she is now. Or at least, he has trouble viewing her as an adult, as an "equal", in that matter. Possibly caused by her acting out, indeed.

[Julia Martell]

So much to say, too much French homework to say it! Just a few quick points.

I find it really sad that this is probably the most they've said to each other outside of small talk for nine years.

They both came into this conversation perfectly willing to continue the pattern they've been maintaining. She with her BS about the honour of Dorne, which is, like, pretty far down on her list of grievances at this point, and him with the detached sermons and the lying to her face. The real talk only really starts when he asks her what she wants and she calls him out on Quentyn-gate.

Both these guys are a little snarky, aren't they? "Best stop swallowing, you're like to choke on it." "How nobel of you." Heh.

How hilarious/sad is it that he tells her that a little mistrust is good for a princess, and then five minutes later, tells her off for mistrusting her brother?

Did anyone else feel the cockles of their hearts warm a little when Doran used the term "princess" to refer to someone with actual military and political authority, rather than to someone's daughter in a pretty dress?

[Chebyshov]

I think Doran still sees Arianne as the young girl that she was (like Hotah also seems to do), not the woman she is now. Or at least, he has trouble viewing her as an adult, as an "equal", in that matter. Possibly caused by her acting out, indeed.

Yeah, he definitely did. Plus Daddy being weirded out by her libido didn't help matters either. Why did he do nothing about her fucking Daemon? Like at least just give her a talk about proper consorts. If she had been made queen, I doubt she'd have been permitted a paramour. I feel like there was a way to address this behavior without giving his plans away, but he was uncomfortable and/or guilty over her mother's departure.

They both came into this conversation perfectly willing to continue the pattern they've been maintaining. She with her BS about the honour of Dorne, which is, like, pretty far down on her list of grievances at this point, and him with the detached sermons and the lying to her face. The real talk only really starts when he asks her what she wants and she calls him out on Quentyn-gate.

And what's notable about that is that Arianne meant to break the pattern and be contrite. Yet the pain and the built-up tension from the past decade prevented any kind of emotional movement on her part, even after facing a kind of hell for one [or two(?)] months, which she fully understands could become her reality.

In fact, it's Doran's passive demeanor that sets her on edge. I think had he seemed angry, had she gotten a rise for, in, it would have proven to her on some level that he cared about her. Yet the only time he gets emotional is when he realizes that he's taken for granted Arianne understanding his love for her. I'm getting rather vermklempt thinking about that.

[Chebyshov]

I have thoughts to add:

There's often criticism that Arianne's arc is about her learning to submit to her father's will. I think the ADWD chapter we'll get next week flies in the face of that, but a lot of the conversation between Doran and Arianne plays into that. In a way, it's really frustrating that their conversation ends with "fire and blood," because in my head-canon, they remain talking into the wee hours of the morning. The chapter ending where it does only begins to show us Doran's demeanor change...starting with his parchment-thin voice full of grief. But he only has like 2 lines afterwards that we witness.

Yet for most of this chapter, a lot of what Doran says to Arianne has a very condescending tone. As if he's handing knowledge down to her and she should listen because he knows best. This makes me wonder if this was his idea of giving her "lessons" over the years. The best example of this tone can be seen here:

“I told them to place a cyvasse table in your chambers,” her father said when the two of them were alone.

“Who was I supposed to play with?” Why is he talking about a game? Has the gout robbed him of his wits?

“Yourself. Sometimes it is best to study a game before you attempt to play it. How well do you know the game, Arianne?”

“Well enough to play.”

“But not to win. My brother loved the fight for its own sake, but I only play such games as I can win. Cyvasse is not for me.”

Julia Martell pointed out to me that this passage felt like a sermon...he's not engaging with Arianne so much as he is explaining her failings. No wonder she's not receptive or forgiving towards him.

I think Doran may have had the case of the smug over the years. He prided himself on being a great player, so clever to never lose a Dornishman's life until Oberyn, and it's not like that's something he put his stamp of approval on. I'm not saying it went to Doran's head...he's far from egotistical. It's just that he hadn't received negative feedback for the way he played the game. He believed himself smart and full of knowledge about the subtleties of politics. Hey, he successfully arranged a marriage that would help topple the current ruling family and position his family near the top. He kept Dorne out of the WOT5K. While objectively his actions and follow-through for these plans is questinable, you can't deny that he kept the Dornishmen safe over the years...a value that we don't see him question until ADWD (won't get into that today though :)). So he can chastise Arianne's "reckless" plan and think about how she should read books and study cyvasse to be more skilled because that's what he did, and it's worked well for him.

And then Arianne absolutely disabuses Doran of the notion that his gameplay should be handed down from high. In all his careful planning, he overlooked his best asset and completely misjudged her character. He couldn't understand where her anger came from, and just wrote it off. He allowed for conditions that led Arianne to believe that he hated her and wished to replace her. That blunder had to make him question everything, especially given that he needed Arianne to get him out of it. Doran's own gameplay fucked everything up royally, and while Arianne can be blamed for her false assumptions, Doran's oversight of the issue (to me) seems more egregious.

Truthfully, I don't think Doran meant to be so patronizing in the conversation. This is probably just how he thinks he should educate/parent. But I have a feeling that after she came clean about seeing the letter, their conversation was one that put them on far more equal footing. I really wish the chapter continued on...those two had 10 years of lost time for which to make up. Just yet another Arianne/Doran parallel: both being a bit over-confident in their own skills/smarts at the game, and both finally get the feedback they respectively need in this chapter.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Both these guys are a little snarky, aren't they? "Best stop swallowing, you're like to choke on it." "How nobel of you." Heh.

Especially Doran´s "how nobel of you" and “You did everything you could to stop him from dishonoring his vows, I am certain,” made me chuckle ..

I have thoughts to add:

There's often criticism that Arianne's arc is about her learning to submit to her father's will. I think the ADWD chapter we'll get next week flies in the face of that, but a lot of the conversation between Doran and Arianne plays into that. In a way, it's really frustrating that their conversation ends with "fire and blood," because in my head-canon, they remain talking into the wee hours of the morning. The chapter ending where it does only begins to show us Doran's demeanor change...starting with his parchment-thin voice full of grief. But he only has like 2 lines afterwards that we witness.

In my head, the same :)

[Julia Martell]

So here's what I did, because I'm insane. What follows is a line by line analysis of the entire conversation between Arianne and Doran in the second half of The Princess in the Tower. There are many things I gloss over because my focus is on their relationship and conception of each other. All the quotes are in spoiler tags because this monster is more than 5000 words long.

By the time she was ready, dusk had fallen. Arianne had thought that Hotah would escort her to the Tower of the Sun to hear her father’s judgment. Instead he delivered her to the prince’s solar, where they found Doran Martell seated behind a cyvasse table, his gouty legs supported by a cushioned footstool. He was toying with an onyx elephant, turning it in his reddened, swollen hands. The prince looked worse than she had ever seen him. His face was pale and puffy, his joints so inflamed that it hurt her just to look at them. Seeing him this way made Arianne’s heart go out to him . . . yet somehow she could not bring herself to kneel and beg, as she had planned. “Father,” she said instead.

When he raised his head to look at her, his dark eyes were clouded with pain. Is that the gout? Arianne wondered. Or is it me?

Arianne’s concern for Doran’s physical wellbeing isn’t surprising. It would never, in a million year, occur to either of them to actually harm the other.

“A strange and subtle folk, the Volantenes,” he muttered, as he put the elephant aside. “I saw Volantis once, on my way to Norvos, where I first met Mellario. The bells were ringing, and the bears danced down the steps. Areo will recall the day.”

“I remember,” echoed Areo Hotah in his deep voice. “The bears danced and the bells rang, and the prince wore red and gold and orange. My lady asked me who it was who shone so bright.”

Doran doesn’t want to be having this conversation at all. This is the worst kind of small talk and serves only to delayl what must come next.

Prince Doran smiled wanly. “Leave us, captain.”

Hotah stamped the butt of his longaxe on the floor, turned on his heel, and took his leave.

I told them to place a cyvasse table in your chambers,” her father said when the two of them were alone.

“Who was I supposed to play with?” Why is he talking about a game? Has the gout robbed him of his wits?

“Yourself. Sometimes it is best to study a game before you attempt to play it. How well do you know the game, Arianne?”

“Well enough to play.”

“But not to win. My brother loved the fight for its own sake, but I only play such games as I can win. Cyvasse is not for me."

He is straight up telling her off for her stupid plan here, comparing it to a badly played game of cyvasse. The problem, as Cheb has mentioned, is that this is more like a sermon than anything, a judgement from on high rather than engaging with her and trying to teach her. If this is how he’s imparted his little bits of wisdom that Areo had quoted in the past, we should be too surprised that Arianne didn’t soak them up.

He studied her face for a long moment before he said, “Why? Tell me that, Arianne. Tell me why.”

I’d be very curious to know what exactly he thought her motivation was. My guess is he thought she had the same opinions as the Sank Snakes.

“For the honor of our House.” Her father’s voice made her angry. He sounded so sad, so exhausted, so weak. You are a prince! she wanted to shout. You should be raging! “Your meekness shames all Dorne, Father. Your brother went to King’s Landing in your place, and they killed him!”

“Do you think I do not know that? Oberyn is with me every time I close my eyes.”

That’s bullshit. It’s not that Arianne doesn’t care about his handling of the political situation, but as we’ve discussed, that’s not “why” she did it. He definitely isn’t conforming to her notion of what a prince should be, but that’s only a small part of it.

She’s pissed off, I think, because even after her giant fuck up, even after his brother’s death, she still can’t get a rise out of him. She would settle for any emotion at this point, she would rather have his anger than his indifference.

“Telling you to open them, no doubt.” She seated herself across the cyvasse table from her father.

“I did not give you leave to sit.”

“Then call Hotah back and whip me for my insolence. You are the Prince of Dorne. You can do that.”

I like the symbolism here. Doran hasn’t given her permission to sit down and play, but she’s going to do it anyways. And he doesn’t seem to have the will to stop her either. He’s just going to have to accept it; she’s playing now.

And here is another example of Arianne unsuccessfully trying to get a rise out of him.

“She touched one of the cyvasse pieces, the heavy horse. “Have you caught Ser Gerold?”

He shook his head. “Would that we had. You were a fool to make him part of this. Darkstar is the most dangerous man in Dorne. You and he have done us all great harm.”

Arianne was almost afraid to ask. “Myrcella. Is she . . . ?”

“. . . dead? No, though Darkstar did his best. All eyes were on your white knight so no one seems quite certain just what happened, but it would appear that her horse shied away from his at the last instant, else he would have taken off the top of the girl’s skull. As it is, the slash opened her cheek down to the bone and sliced off her right ear. Maester Caleotte was able to save her life, but no poultice nor potion will ever restore her face. She was my ward, Arianne. Betrothed to your own brother and under my protection. You have dishonored all of us.”

“I never meant her harm,” Arianne insisted. “If Hotah had not interfered . . .”

“. . . you would have crowned Myrcella queen, to raise a rebellion against her brother. Instead of an ear, she would have lost her life.

“Only if we lost.”

“If? The word is when. Dorne is the least populous of the Seven Kingdoms. It pleased the Young Dragon to make all our armies larger when he wrote that book of his, so as to make his conquest that much more glorious, and it has pleased us to water the seed he planted and let our foes think us more powerful than we are, but a princess ought to know the truth. Valor is a poor substitute for numbers. Dorne cannot hope to win a war against the Iron Throne, not alone. And yet that may well be what you have given us. Are you proud?” The prince did not allow her time to answer.”

Translation: you suck. I’m not going to discuss the accuracy of Doran’s assessment of her plan, that’s outside the scope of the little write up, but there are two interesting things in this section. Firstly, Arianne barely tries to defend herself, she doesn’t need Doran to tell her what went wrong. If she defends anything, it’s her intentions, she never meant for anything bad to happen to Myrcella. For all her anger and sense of alienation from her father the thing she cares about the most is what he thinks of her.

Secondly, Doran is berating her for not having information that only he could have given her. It’s common, albeit mistaken, knowledge that Dorne is a military powerhouse. How was she to know it wasn’t true, especially given the fact that she’s not a warrior.

“What am I to do with you, Arianne?”

Forgive me, part of her wanted to say, but his words had cut her too deeply. “Why, do what you always do. Do nothing.”

“You make it difficult for a man to swallow his anger.”

“Best stop swallowing, you’re like to choke on it.” The prince did not answer.

Again, Arianne’s first instinct is to be honest with him, but his behaviour towards her and her pride make that impossible, so she returns to her old pattern, scorn.

“Tell me how you knew my plans.”

“I am the Prince of Dorne. Men seek my favor.”

Someone told. “You knew, and yet you still allowed us to make off with Myrcella. Why?”

“That was my mistake, and it has proved a grievous one. You are my daughter, Arianne. The little girl who used to run to me when she skinned her knee. I found it hard to believe that you would conspire against me. I had to learn the truth.”

Arianne is criticizing him for his inaction again, and he offers his justification: he couldn’t imagine that she would conspire against him, not until the evidence was absolutely indisputable. He sees her as still a child who’s not capable of conspiracies, yes, but more importantly he has taken it for granted that their relationship is still what it was then.

“Now you have. I want to know who informed on me.”

“I would as well, in your place.”

“Will you tell me?”

“I can think of no reason why I should.”

“You think I cannot discover the truth on my own?”

“You are welcome to try. Until such time you must mistrust them all . . . and a little mistrust is a good thing in a princess.”

Arianne doesn’t show interest in reliving happy memories like Doran does, possibly because she believes all his acts of affection when she was a child were a lie, an act. She’s trying to keep things business, rather than talking about how things used to be between them.

Doran tries to hand down some more wisdom, and again, probably with the best intentions.

This is the line that really made me fall in love with Doren, btw, “a little mistrust is a good thing in a princess.” (by “princess” he means someone with power :wub: ) and it proves that he doesn’t really intend to disinherit her, even now.

“You disappoint me, Arianne.”

“Said the crow to the raven. You have been disappointing me for years, Father.” She had not meant to be so blunt with him, but the words came spilling out. There, now I have said it.

This is one of her biggest fear, that he would confirm her suspicion of his disappointment. And yet even now she’s worried about hurting his feelings. God, I love her.

“I know. I am too meek and weak and cautious, too lenient to our enemies. Just now, though, you are in need of some of that leniency, it seems to me. You ought to be pleading for my forgiveness rather than seeking to provoke me further.”

“I ask leniency only for my friends.”

“How noble of you.”

“What they did they did for love for me. They do not deserve to die on Ghaston Grey.”

Again, Arianne doesn’t take an opportunity to defend herself. Maybe she doesn’t think she deserves forgiveness.

Doran is perhaps beginning to suspect that something's going wrong for him, she’s not behaving as he expected. As Rhaenys said, he imprisoned her to try to break her will, and it obviously didn’t work as well as he hoped.

“As it happens, I agree. Aside from Darkstar, your fellow plotters were no more than foolish children. Still, this was no harmless game of cyvasse. You and your friends were playing at treason. I might have had their heads off.”

“You might have, but you didn’t. Dayne, Dalt, Santagar . . . no, you would never dare make enemies of such Houses.”

“I dare more than you dream . . . but leave that for the nonce. Ser Andrey has been sent to Norvos to serve your lady mother for three years. Garin will spend his next two years in Tyrosh. From his kin amongst the orphans, I took coin and hostages. Lady Sylva received no punishment from me, but she was of an age to marry. Her father has shipped her to Greenstone to wed Lord Estermont.”

As we’ve discusses at length, Arianne wasn’t playing. And yet again, she doesn’t defend herself. But you can tell the criticism hit home because she scorns him, again.

Doran displays a very Arianne-like characteristic here. He puts the blame where it belongs, with her, not her friends. (And let’s assume Doran actually didn’t have anything to do with shipping Spotted Sylva off to marry an old dude, it doesn’t seem like something he would do anyway.)

“As for Arys Oakheart, he chose his own fate and met it bravely. A knight of the Kingsguard . . . what did you do to him?”

“I fucked him, Father. You did command me to entertain our noble visitors, as I recall.”

His face grew flushed.

Poor Doran. I’m not going to fault him for being scared shitless of the fact that his child has reach sexual maturity. Dragons ain’t got nothing on that concept.

Arianne does take this opportunity to throw the whole party planning gig in his face, though, which I also don’t blame her for.

“Was that all that was required?”

“I told him that once Myrcella was the queen she would give us leave to marry. He wanted me for his wife.”

“You did everything you could to stop him from dishonoring his vows, I am certain,” her father said.

It was her turn to flush. Her seduction of Ser Arys had required half a year. Though he claimed to have known other women before taking the white, she would never have known that from the way he acted. His caresses had been clumsy, his kisses nervous, and the first time they were abed together he spent his seed on her thigh as she was guiding him inside her with her hand. Worse, he had been consumed by shame. If she only had a dragon for every time he had whispered, “We should not be doing this,” she would be richer than the Lannisters. Did he charge at Areo Hotah in hopes of saving me? Arianne wondered. Or did he do it to escape me, to wash out his dishonor with his life’s blood? “He did love me,” she heard herself say. “He died for me.”

Doran’s uncomfortable about his daughter’s libido, but really he doesn’t care that she had sex with Arys, he cares that she “dishonoured” him. Not in a bullshit Ser Barristan patriarcal way, but in a way that basically means she manipulated him into doing something he knew was wrong. And she knew she was doing it, too.

Again, (yup it’s a pattern) she doesn’t defend her actions, she knows she can’t, she defends Ser Arys instead, she’s the one who’s been dishonoured by her actions, not him. He did it because he loved her.

“If so, he may well be but the first of many. You and your cousins wanted war. You may get your wish. Another Kingsguard knight creeps toward Sunspear even as we speak. Ser Balon Swann is bringing me the Mountain’s head. My bannermen have been delaying him, to purchase me some time. The Wyls kept him hunting and hawking for eight days on the Boneway, and Lord Yronwood feasted him for a fortnight when he emerged from the mountains. At present he is at the Tor, where Lady Jordayne has arranged games in his honor. When he reaches Ghost Hill he will find Lady Toland intent on outdoing her. Soon or late, however, Ser Balon must arrive at Sunspear, and when he does he will expect to see Princess Myrcella . . . and Ser Arys, his Sworn Brother. What shall we tell him, Arianne? Shall I say that Oakheart perished in a hunting accident, or from a tumble down some slippery steps? Perhaps Arys went swimming at the Water Gardens, slipped upon the marble, hit his head, and drowned?”

Finally, Doran has reached the point he wants to make. “Look at this huge and immediate problem you caused, Arianne.”

“No,” Arianne said. “Say that he died defending his little princess. Tell Ser Balon that Darkstar tried to kill her and Ser Arys stepped between them and saved her life.” That was how the white knights of the Kingsguard were supposed to die, giving up their own lives for those that they had sworn to protect. “Ser Balon may be suspicious, as you were when the Lannisters killed your sister and her children, but he will have no proof . . .”

Doran wasn’t really asking for her advice, of course, but these two think alike, as we’ve discussed, so they come to the same conclusion: Myrcella has to lie.

“. . . until he speaks with Myrcella. Or must that brave child suffer a tragic accident as well? If so, it will mean war. No lie will save Dorne from the queen’s wroth if her daughter should perish whilst in my care.”

He needs me, Arianne realized. That’s why he sent for me.

“I could tell Myrcella what to say, but why should I?”

In my head canon, Arianne always bursts out laughing at this point. I know it’s not in the text, but it happens in my head every time.

I think this line is indicative of what Doran expected from her. He expected her to have a Sand Snake attitude, to solve this problem with violence. He expected to have to break her will, have her beg for forgiveness, and then to command her from on high to tell Myrcella what to say. But here she is, not cowed or penitent, and actually anticipating his plan. This is not going according to plan. And Doran hates it when stuff doesn’t go according to plan.

“A spasm of anger rippled across her father’s face. “I warn you, Arianne, I am out of patience.”

“With me?” That is so like him. “For Lord Tywin and the Lannisters you always had the forbearance of Baelor the Blessed, but for your own blood, none.”

This is as close of Doran ever comes to legit losing his temper. He feels he’s losing control of the conversation.

Arianne accuses him, basically, of caring more about his job than he does about his family. He spends all his time talking to people who treat him like shit, the people who murdered his sister, and none talking to her.

“You mistake patience for forbearance. I have worked at the downfall of Tywin Lannister since the day they told me of Elia and her children. It was my hope to strip him of all that he held most dear before I killed him, but it would seem his dwarf son has robbed me of that pleasure. I take some small solace in knowing that he died a cruel death at the hands of the monster that he himself begot. Be that as it may. Lord Tywin is howling down in hell . . . where thousands more will soon be joining him, if your folly turns to war.” Her father grimaced, as if the very word were painful to him. “Is that what you want?

”

Doran must have been quite stung by her accusation, because he actually starts telling her The Plan. Maybe he actually cares what she thinks too.

The princess refused to be cowed. “I want my cousins freed. I want my uncle avenged. I want my rights.”

Finally, some real talk from Arianne.

“Your rights?”

“Dorne.”

“You will have Dorne after I am dead. Are you so anxious to be rid of me?”

Doran has no idea what she’s talking about. He still thinks she did it because she holds him in contempt for being weak.

“I should turn that question back on you, Father. You have been trying to rid yourself of me for years.”

“That is not true.”

We’ve discussed this, at great length, as the only reasonable assumption Arianne could have arrived at, for several reasons.

Doran denies it emphatically. Why? Because he has no idea why she should feel this way.

“No? Shall we ask my brother?”

“Trystane?”

“Quentyn.”

“What of him?”

“Where is he?”

“He is with Lord Yronwood’s host in the Boneway.”

“You do lie well, Father, I will grant you that. You did not so much as blink. Quentyn has gone to Lys.”

“Where did you get that notion?”

“A friend told me.” She could have secrets too.

“Your friend lied. You have my word, your brother has not gone to Lys. I swear it by sun and spear and Seven.”

I imagine something like “ “I was so careful. How could he know?” is going through his head. There’s, again, a pretty neat parallel between Doran and Arianne; they know each other’s plans but not the motivation behind them. Results: disaster.

Doran is desperately trying to salvage his lie. He lies to her face twice in this short passage. “Panicing” might be too strong a word, but he’s certainly completely thrown off his game for a moment.

Arianne could not be fooled so easily. “Is it Myr, then? Tyrosh? I know he is somewhere across the narrow sea, hiring sellswords to steal away my birthright.”

Just like Doran begins to put his cards on the table by beginning to explain The Plan, Arianne starts to put her cards on the table.

“Her father’s face darkened. “This mistrust does you no honor, Arianne. Quentyn should be the one conspiring against me. I sent him away when he was just a child, too young to understand the needs of Dorne. Anders Yronwood has been more a father to him than I have, yet your brother remains faithful and obedient.”

Oh, Doran. Remember, like, five minutes ago? “Until such time you must mistrust them all . . . and a little mistrust is a good thing in a princess.” We shouldn’t be too hard on him though, this is a very stressful situation for him.

He takes this opportunity to veer the conversation back to his intended topic: why Arianne sucks and needs to ask forgiveness.

Pro-tip: NEVER compare your children to each other like this. He unknowingly touches on the heart of the matter, he’s done the same thing to Arianne that he did to Quentyn; he distance himself from both of them at a young age, physically from Quentyn, emotionally from Arianne, for the sake of Dorne, but he only seems to realize it in the one case.

“Why not? You favor him and always have. He looks like you, he thinks like you, and you mean to give him Dorne, don’t trouble to deny it. I read your letter.” The words still burned as bright as fire in her memory. “‘One day you will sit where I sit and rule all Dorne,’ you wrote him. Tell me, Father, when did you decide to disinherit me? Was it the day that Quentyn was born, or the day that I was born? What did I ever do to make you hate me so?” To her fury, there were tears in her eyes.”

And there it is. Arianne, probably quite hurt by being compared to Quentyn in that way, (seriously, never do that) she lays it all out. “Stop bullshitting me, stop telling me I owe you my faith when you don’t have any in me and never have.”

It’s hard to blame her for becoming emotional. The question of why her father finds her so inadequate that he feels the need to disinherit her has been THE question that’s formed her entire self-concept since her early adolescence. I don’t know what would be more traumatic, having her fears confirmed at this point, or having her entire self-concept torn down and having to built a new one from scratch.

“I never hated you.” Prince Doran’s voice was parchment-thin, and full of grief. “Arianne, you do not understand.”

Grief is an interesting word to use here, like he just realized he’d lost his daughter as surely as he’s lost his siblings. To his credit, he gets how much he screwed up right away. He knows he owes her an explanation now.

“Do you deny you wrote those words?”

“No. That was when Quentyn first went to Yronwood. I did intend for him to follow me, yes. I had other plans for you.”

Doran defend himself here in a way that Arianne never did. Somehow, she managed to get the upper hand in the conversation, she’s the one asking questions now.

“Oh, yes,” she said scornfully, “such plans. Gyles Rosby. Blind Ben Beesbury. Greybeard Grandison. They were your plans.”

She gave him no chance to reply. “I know it is my duty to provide an heir for Dorne, I have never been forgetful of that. I would have wed, and gladly, but the matches that you brought to me were insults. With every one you spit on me. If you ever felt any love for me at all, why offer me to Walder Frey?”

Despite what I’ve been saying, Arianne does defend herself a little here, possibly taking her cue from her father. She’s telling him that she’s always been aware that she’s had a duty, that she’s also willing to make sacrifices for Dorne. She’s decidedly not the marrying type, but she would have done it and gladly. But she does have her limits.

As I discussed in my section last week, her really beef with these blind dates is that she feel they prove that, not only does he not want her to have a worthy consort, but he doesn’t want her to be personally happy.

“Because I knew that you would spurn him. I had to be seen to try to find a consort for you once you’d reached a certain age, else it would have raised suspicions, but I dared not bring you any man you might accept. You were promised, Arianne.”

“Promised? Arianne stared at him incredulously. “What are you saying? Is this another lie? You never said . . .”

Arianne has completely lost trust in Doran at this point. Her first thought is that he’s lying to her again. He’s desperate to win her back, he decides to release even more information.

“The pact was sealed in secret. I meant to tell you when you were old enough . . . when you came of age, I thought, but . . .”

“I am three-and-twenty, for seven years a woman grown.”

“I know. If I kept you ignorant too long, it was only to protect you. Arianne, your nature . . . to you, a secret was only a choice tale to whisper to Garin and Tyene in your bed of a night. Garin gossips as only the orphans can, and Tyene keeps nothing from Obara and the Lady Nym. And if they knew . . . Obara is too fond of wine, and Nym is too close to the Fowler twins. And who might the Fowler twins confide in? I could not take the risk.”

Doran already probably realizes by this point that the biggest risk he could have taken was not telling her anything. Even if he’s not wrong about her ability to keep a secret, and most of us seem to agree that he was mistaken about that, it was still a huge risk to keep her in the dark.

She was lost, confounded. Promised. I was promised. “Who is it? Who have I been betrothed to, all these years?”

“It makes no matter. He is dead.”

That left her more baffled than ever. “The old ones are so frail. Was it a broken hip, a chill, the gout?”

So telling her this much truth still isn’t enough, in fact it seems to have made it worse, she down to making personal digs at him now. (Which, yeah, not classy Princess.)

“It was a pot of molten gold. We princes make our careful plans and the gods smash them all awry.” Prince Doran made a weary gesture with a chafed red hand. “Dorne will be yours. You have my word on that, if my word still has any meaning for you. Your brother Quentyn has a harder road to walk.”

Doran is understandable very bummed about the inability of any of his plans to work out, even his relatively simple one to have a conversation with his daughter. Arianne can probably sympathize with that, at this point. His very explicit acknowledgement of the fact he’s lost her trust is heart wrenching.

As an aside. I think we can assume Arianne knows exactly who he’s talking about here. Everyone seems to know the story of the Beggar King’s end.

“What road?” Arianne regarded him suspiciously. “What are you holding back? Seven save me, but I am sick of secrets. Tell me the rest, Father . . . or else name Quentyn your heir and send for Hotah and his axe, and let me die beside my cousins.”

This is Arianne greatest moment of emotional vulnerability. She makes it very clear how much Doran’s actions have hurt her, and how for granted he’s taken her knowledge of his love for her, and his whole family.

She makes it clear as well, his only choice is to tell her everything, or lose her forever.

“Do you truly believe I would harm my brother’s children?” Her father grimaced. “Obara, Nym, and Tyene lack for nothing but their freedom, and Ellaria and her daughters are happily ensconced at the Water Gardens. Dorea stalks about knocking oranges off the trees with her morningstar, and Elia and Obella have become the terror of the pools.”

This reassurance is the turning point for Arianne, even more so than his reassurance over her status as heir. She said earlier in the chapter that if he harmed the Sand Snakes, she would never forgive him. She needed to know this before they could start mending their relationship.

“He sighed. “It has not been so long since you were playing in those pools. You used to ride the shoulders of an older girl . . . a tall girl with wispy yellow hair . . .”

“Jeyne Fowler, or her sister Jennelyn.” It had been years since Arianne had thought of that. “Oh, and Frynne, her father was a smith. Her hair was brown. Garin was my favorite, though. When I rode Garin no one could defeat us, not even Nym and that green-haired Tyroshi girl.”

Arianne seems more willing to reminisce with him now. She knows he loves her, and that makes thinking about her happy childhood a less painful experience.

“That green-haired girl was the Archon’s daughter. I was to have sent you to Tyrosh in her place. You would have served the Archon as a cupbearer and met with your betrothed in secret, but your mother threatened to harm herself if I stole another of her children, and I . . . I could not do that to her.”

Once again, Doran proves to Arianne, and to us, that he puts his family before his scheme for revenge. There’s a clear division between what he’s willing to do “for Dorne”, that is, more or less anything, including send his son away and straining his marriage, and what he’s willing to do to fulfill his desire for vengeance, that is, as little as possible. Now, here he is confronted with the knowledge that he did sacrifice some thing important for his scheme, and he’s doing everything he can to take it back.

His tale grows ever stranger. “Is that where Quentyn’s gone? To Tyrosh, to court the Archon’s green-haired daughter?”

Arianne hasn’t put the pieces together, but she believes him now.

Her father plucked up a cyvasse piece. “I must know how you learned that Quentyn was abroad. Your brother went with Cletus Yronwood, Maester Kedry, and three of Lord Yronwood’s best young knights on a long and perilous voyage, with an uncertain welcome at its end. He has gone to bring us back our heart’s desire.”

He’s asking her for information. Like honestly, not sarcastically. We’ve come quite a ways in eleven pages. With all these details, we get the impression that he’s going to completely open up to her, and trust her.

She narrowed her eyes. “What is our heart’s desire?”

“Vengeance.” His voice was soft, as if he were afraid that someone might be listening. “Justice.” Prince Doran pressed the onyx dragon into her palm with his swollen, gouty fingers, and whispered, “Fire and blood.”

Very dramatic closing. There’s a reason why it’s many people’s favourite line in the series.

So, before I did this analysis, I thought this was a scene about Arianne learning a lesson, now I'm not so sure. She learned her lesson in the first part, that when Princes make mistakes, other people get hurt. This part is about Doran learning a lesson. He learned that he's not the chess (cyvasse) master he thought he was, he learned that not trusting enough people can be as bad as trusting too many, and he learned that he can't take his relationships for granted, that just loving someone isn't enough.

[Chebyshov]

So, before I did this analysis, I thought this was a scene about Arianne learning a lesson, now I'm not so sure. She learned her lesson in the first part, that when Princes make mistakes, other people get hurt. This part is about Doran learning a lesson. He learned that he's not the chess (cyvasse) master he thought he was, he learned that not trusting enough people can be as bad as trusting too many, and he learned that he can't take his relationships for granted, that just loving someone isn't enough.

*Slow clap*

This is excellent (and now linked in the OP). I've got much and more to say (hopefully can get through it tonight), but just wanted to highlight the above. It's clear that Arianne learned her lesson in Part 1 of the chapter, which is why she doesn't feel the need to defend herself. Part 2 is about her father going along a shockingly similar journey, but within one conversation rather than months.

[Chebyshov]

Here's some of my thoughts after reading Julia's fantastic analysis:

On the Perfect Parallel of Arianne and Doran

Prince Doran smiled wanly. “Leave us, captain.”

Hotah stamped the butt of his longaxe on the floor, turned on his heel, and took his leave.

I told them to place a cyvasse table in your chambers,” her father said when the two of them were alone.

“Who was I supposed to play with?” Why is he talking about a game? Has the gout robbed him of his wits?

“Yourself. Sometimes it is best to study a game before you attempt to play it. How well do you know the game, Arianne?”

“Well enough to play.”

“But not to win. My brother loved the fight for its own sake, but I only play such games as I can win. Cyvasse is not for me."

He is straight up telling her off for her stupid plan here, comparing it to a badly played game of cyvasse. The problem, as Cheb has mentioned, is that this is more like a sermon than anything, a judgement from on high rather than engaging with her and trying to teach her. If this is how he’s imparted his little bits of wisdom that Areo had quoted in the past, we should be too surprised that Arianne didn’t soak them up.

Smug alert! He thinks he knows what games he can’t win, and how to avoid these pitfalls. He’s about to soon learn. This is Doran’s “one day the singers will make all of us immortal” moment. Actually, maybe signing the marriage pact or sending Oberyn to KL was. But you get my point.

He studied her face for a long moment before he said, “Why? Tell me that, Arianne. Tell me why.”

I’d be very curious to know what exactly he thought her motivation was. My guess is he thought she had the same opinions as the Sank Snakes.

“For the honor of our House.” Her father’s voice made her angry. He sounded so sad, so exhausted, so weak. You are a prince! she wanted to shout. You should be raging! “Your meekness shames all Dorne, Father. Your brother went to King’s Landing in your place, and they killed him!”

“Do you think I do not know that? Oberyn is with me every time I close my eyes.”

That’s bullshit. It’s not that Arianne doesn’t care about his handling of the political situation, but as we’ve discussed, that’s not “why” she did it. He definitely isn’t conforming to her notion of what a prince should be, but that’s only a small part of it.

She’s pissed off, I think, because even after her giant fuck up, even after his brother’s death, she still can’t get a rise out of him. She would settle for any emotion at this point, she would rather have his anger than his indifference.

Comes back to her wanting to get told off for sleeping with the pool boy. At least it would mean Doran hasn’t set her aside.

“Telling you to open them, no doubt.” She seated herself across the cyvasse table from her father.

“I did not give you leave to sit.”

“Then call Hotah back and whip me for my insolence. You are the Prince of Dorne. You can do that.”

I like the symbolism here. Doran hasn’t given her permission to sit down and play, but she’s going to do it anyways. And he doesn’t seem to have the will to stop her either. He’s just going to have to accept it; she’s playing now.

Really his only way to stop her is to chuck her back in that tower, and even there we see her using her intellect/intuition to win herself a letter to Fowler…it almost worked! We all know what Doran’s plans were for Arianne with Viserys, but seriously, did he expect her not develop any kind of political mind? The moment she read that letter was the moment she became a player, and if adventure to Highgarden wasn’t enough to make him realize that, then I can’t really help him. I guess some parents handle their kids growing up better than others :dunno:.

And here is another example of Arianne unsuccessfully trying to get a rise out of him.

“If? The word is when. Dorne is the least populous of the Seven Kingdoms. It pleased the Young Dragon to make all our armies larger when he wrote that book of his, so as to make his conquest that much more glorious, and it has pleased us to water the seed he planted and let our foes think us more powerful than we are, but a princess ought to know the truth. Valor is a poor substitute for numbers. Dorne cannot hope to win a war against the Iron Throne, not alone. And yet that may well be what you have given us. Are you proud?” The prince did not allow her time to answer.”

Translation: you suck. I’m not going to discuss the accuracy of Doran’s assessment of her plan, that’s outside the scope of the little write up, but there are two interesting things in this section. Firstly, Arianne barely tries to defend herself, she doesn’t need Doran to tell her what went wrong. If she defends anything, it’s her intentions, she never meant for anything bad to happen to Myrcella. For all her anger and sense of alienation from her father the thing she cares about the most is what he thinks of her.

This is similar to her approach with Hotah. Her biggest concern with regards to herself is that her intentions will be misconstrued and make her appear callous and bloodthirsty. Obviously we’ve seen Arianne’s concerns for others is placed above her personal well-being. What a good egg.

“That was my mistake, and it has proved a grievous one. You are my daughter, Arianne. The little girl who used to run to me when she skinned her knee. I found it hard to believe that you would conspire against me. I had to learn the truth.”


Arianne doesn’t show interest in reliving happy memories like Doran does, possibly because she believes all his acts of affection when she was a child were a lie, an act. She’s trying to keep things business, rather than talking about how things used to be between them.

This is a subtlety I never noticed before. Doran’s happy to think back in time, before Arianne’s pituitary gland became active and when they had a good relationship. He still wants that daughter, because the one he’s had for the past decade has likely been cold and angry with him…to his complete bemusement. It’s a depressing realization for a father that he doesn’t know his child at all, and that he just wants to go back in time when things made sense to him. More on that tomorrow ;).

This is the line that really made me fall in love with Doren, btw, “a little mistrust is a good thing in a princess.” (by “princess” he means someone with power :wub: and it proves that he doesn’t really intend to disinherit her, even now.

Even at this point in the conversation, because Arianne has not yet actually explained herself. That’s marked. We know that he needs Arianne, which is why they’re having the conversation at all (plus I’m sure he wanted to end her hunger-strike). But however long he was going to keep her in that tower, it doesn’t seem like it was to move her from power. Merely to separate her from her sources of power for a time and hopefully come to understand the anger. He always wanted to work through this.

“You disappoint me, Arianne.”

“Said the crow to the raven. You have been disappointing me for years, Father.” She had not meant to be so blunt with him, but the words came spilling out. There, now I have said it.

This is one of her biggest fear, that he would confirm her suspicion of his disappointment. And yet even now she’s worried about hurting his feelings. God, I love her.

Every time we go “how the hell did Arianne never confront Doran through all those years?”…this is it. She couldn’t bare him telling her that yes, he wanted Quentyn to follow him instead of her because he “hated her so.” His opinion of her matters so much, and it’s clear it’s because of how much she cares for him. “There, now I have said it,” means that no matter how much door-slamming there probably was in her adolescence, she’s never attacked him directly before.

“As for Arys Oakheart, he chose his own fate and met it bravely. A knight of the Kingsguard . . . what did you do to him?”

“I fucked him, Father. You did command me to entertain our noble visitors, as I recall.”

His face grew flushed.

Arianne does take this opportunity to throw the whole party planning gig in his face, though, which I also don’t blame her for.

This is why she had the chef prepare all his favorite foods. “You’re gonna make me party planner? I’m going to be the best mothaf**king party planner Sunspear has ever seen.”

“If so, he may well be but the first of many. You and your cousins wanted war. You may get your wish. Another Kingsguard knight creeps toward Sunspear even as we speak. Ser Balon Swann is bringing me the Mountain’s head. My bannermen have been delaying him, to purchase me some time. The Wyls kept him hunting and hawking for eight days on the Boneway, and Lord Yronwood feasted him for a fortnight when he emerged from the mountains. At present he is at the Tor, where Lady Jordayne has arranged games in his honor. When he reaches Ghost Hill he will find Lady Toland intent on outdoing her. Soon or late, however, Ser Balon must arrive at Sunspear, and when he does he will expect to see Princess Myrcella . . . and Ser Arys, his Sworn Brother. What shall we tell him, Arianne? Shall I say that Oakheart perished in a hunting accident, or from a tumble down some slippery steps? Perhaps Arys went swimming at the Water Gardens, slipped upon the marble, hit his head, and drowned?”

Finally, Doran has reached the point he wants to make. “Look at this huge and immediate problem you caused, Arianne.”

Did he put off saying this for so long because he couldn’t be humble when facing his daughter, same as her? Like, not that Doran realizes he should have anything to apologize for with her, but he did throw her in her own version of hell for two months and now needs her help. Maybe he went into the conversation prepared to forgive her, just as she went in prepared to beg for forgiveness, yet her demeanor made it impossible. So instead he kind of talks around the point for a while, making this passage his, “there, I have said it” moment.

Drinking game: from now on, every time Doran and Arianne parallel each other take a sip.

“A spasm of anger rippled across her father’s face. “I warn you, Arianne, I am out of patience.”

“With me?” That is so like him. “For Lord Tywin and the Lannisters you always had the forbearance of Baelor the Blessed, but for your own blood, none.”

This is as close of Doran ever comes to legit losing his temper. He feels he’s losing control of the conversation.

Arianne accuses him, basically, of caring more about his job than he does about his family. He spends all his time talking to people who treat him like shit, the people who murdered his sister, and none talking to her.

I think he has a case of “Forgive me, part of her wanted to say, but his words had cut her too deeply.” Her accusation does cut a little close to his bone. Keep in mind how he feels like an inadequate father for Quentyn, definitely for Arianne, an inadequate brother to both Elia and Oberyn. He worked to bring the downfall for justice, and in the process it was actually Doran who’s been robbed of everything he holds dear: his children and his brother, and now, maybe, Dorne’s peace.

The princess refused to be cowed. “I want my cousins freed. I want my uncle avenged. I want my rights.”

Finally, some real talk from Arianne.

“Your rights?”

“Dorne.”

“You will have Dorne after I am dead. Are you so anxious to be rid of me?”

Doran has no idea what she’s talking about. He still thinks she did it because she holds him in contempt for being weak.

“I should turn that question back on you, Father. You have been trying to rid yourself of me for years.”

“That is not true.”

We’ve discussed this, at great length, as the only reasonable assumption Arianne could have arrived at, for several reasons.
Doran denies it emphatically. Why? Because he has no idea why she should feel this way.

It’s about to come crashing down…this is his “Arianne felt as though an axe had caught her in the belly moment. Seriously, this parallelism is insane.

“No? Shall we ask my brother?”

“Trystane?”

“Quentyn.”

“What of him?”

“Where is he?”

“He is with Lord Yronwood’s host in the Boneway.”

“You do lie well, Father, I will grant you that. You did not so much as blink. Quentyn has gone to Lys.”

“Where did you get that notion?”

“A friend told me.” She could have secrets too.

“Your friend lied. You have my word, your brother has not gone to Lys. I swear it by sun and spear and Seven.”

I imagine something like “ “I was so careful. How could he know?” is going through his head. There’s, again, a pretty neat parallel between Doran and Arianne; they know each other’s plans but not the motivation behind them. Results: disaster.

Doran is desperately trying to salvage his lie. He lies to her face twice in this short passage. “Panicing” might be too strong a word, but he’s certainly completely thrown off his game for a moment.

I feel like this is his Obi-Wan style lie, “your father is dead.” In a sense, Quentyn’s destination isn’t Lys, so he hasn’t gone there specifically. It was just a stop. Still kind of shitty on his part though.

“Why not? You favor him and always have. He looks like you, he thinks like you, and you mean to give him Dorne, don’t trouble to deny it. I read your letter.” The words still burned as bright as fire in her memory. “‘One day you will sit where I sit and rule all Dorne,’ you wrote him. Tell me, Father, when did you decide to disinherit me? Was it the day that Quentyn was born, or the day that I was born? What did I ever do to make you hate me so?” To her fury, there were tears in her eyes.”

And there it is. Arianne, probably quite hurt by being compared to Quentyn in that way, (seriously, never do that) she lays it all out. “Stop bullshitting me, stop telling me I owe you my faith when you don’t have any in me and never have.”

It’s hard to blame her for becoming emotional. The question of why her father finds her so inadequate that he feels the need to disinherit her has been THE question that’s formed her entire self-concept since her early adolescence. I don’t know what would be more traumatic, having her fears confirmed at this point, or having her entire self-concept torn down and having to built a new one from scratch.

“I never hated you.” Prince Doran’s voice was parchment-thin, and full of grief. “Arianne, you do not understand.”

Grief is an interesting word to use here, like he just realized he’d lost his daughter as surely as he’s lost his siblings. To his credit, he gets how much he screwed up right away. He knows he owes her an explanation now.

Just like Arianne understood as soon as she saw Hotah. “I was so careful” gives way immediately to her “I never meant to…” This is almost exactly what happens to Doran. He’s trying to explain what he “meant” all those years. Yet as Hotah said, “What you meant does not matter, little princess.”

“Oh, yes,” she said scornfully, “such plans. Gyles Rosby. Blind Ben Beesbury. Greybeard Grandison. They were your plans.”

She gave him no chance to reply. “I know it is my duty to provide an heir for Dorne, I have never been forgetful of that. I would have wed, and gladly, but the matches that you brought to me were insults. With every one you spit on me. If you ever felt any love for me at all, why offer me to Walder Frey?”

Remember when Doran gave Arianne no chance to reply at the start of this conversation to say how he was disappointed in her? Oh hey, the tables, they have turned. Like, completely.

Despite what I’ve been saying, Arianne does defend herself a little here, possibly taking her cue from her father. She’s telling him that she’s always been aware that she’s had a duty, that she’s also willing to make sacrifices for Dorne. She’s decidedly not the marrying type, but she would have done it and gladly. But she does have her limits.

She’s defending her value, and defending her character, because that’s what Doran got wrong. Maybe her plan was stupid and would have failed…she believes him on that. But he is dead wrong for thinking she couldn’t have kept the secret about Viserys, for thinking she couldn’t learn the intrigues of politics, etc.

“The pact was sealed in secret. I meant to tell you when you were old enough . . . when you came of age, I thought, but . . .”

“I am three-and-twenty, for seven years a woman grown.”

“I know. If I kept you ignorant too long, it was only to protect you. Arianne, your nature . . . to you, a secret was only a choice tale to whisper to Garin and Tyene in your bed of a night. Garin gossips as only the orphans can, and Tyene keeps nothing from Obara and the Lady Nym. And if they knew . . . Obara is too fond of wine, and Nym is too close to the Fowler twins. And who might the Fowler twins confide in? I could not take the risk.”

Doran already probably realizes by this point that the biggest risk he could have taken was not telling her anything. Even if he’s not wrong about her ability to keep a secret, and most of us seem to agree that he was mistaken about that, it was still a huge risk to keep her in the dark.

What a kind of cool twist on “someone told.” Like, here’s Doran, making sure no one told, and where’s the value in that? It was his undoing.

“It was a pot of molten gold. We princes make our careful plans and the gods smash them all awry.” Prince Doran made a weary gesture with a chafed red hand. “Dorne will be yours. You have my word on that, if my word still has any meaning for you. Your brother Quentyn has a harder road to walk.”

Doran is understandable very bummed about the inability of any of his plans to work out, even his relatively simple one to have a conversation with his daughter. Arianne can probably sympathize with that, at this point. His very explicit acknowledgement of the fact he’s lost her trust is heart wrenching.

Can I just say, this is a man who is cowed. Arianne refused to be so, and mission accomplished. She wins the conversation.

As an aside. I think we can assume Arianne knows exactly who he’s talking about here. Everyone seems to know the story of the Beggar King’s end.

“What road?” Arianne regarded him suspiciously. “What are you holding back? Seven save me, but I am sick of secrets. Tell me the rest, Father . . . or else name Quentyn your heir and send for Hotah and his axe, and let me die beside my cousins.”

This is Arianne greatest moment of emotional vulnerability. She makes it very clear how much Doran’s actions have hurt her, and how for granted he’s taken her knowledge of his love for her, and his whole family.

We’re also seeing a vulnerable Doran, a voice thin and full of grief. I think they’re just both so emotionally drained, probably because they rode the exact same roller coaster of feels.

Very dramatic closing. There’s a reason why it’s many people’s favourite line in the series.

So, before I did this analysis, I thought this was a scene about Arianne learning a lesson, now I'm not so sure. She learned her lesson in the first part, that when Princes make mistakes, other people get hurt. This part is about Doran learning a lesson. He learned that he's not the chess (cyvasse) master he thought he was, he learned that not trusting enough people can be as bad as trusting too many, and he learned that he can't take his relationships for granted, that just loving someone isn't enough.

Now that they’ve both been torn down, they’re open to each other’s thoughts. I think they’re both really strongly empathizing with each other as well. Arianne just told her father that he should kill her unless he tells her what’s up. Can you imagine your child saying that to you?! This scene is absolutely Doran learning his lesson, because Arianne learned hers.

In a way, their punishments parallel each other. Arianne’s own personal hell is the isolation for 2 months, feeling that she’s been put aside. Doran’s personal hell is being confronted with the fact that his family is disappointed in him…he’s lost those close to him, and he’s done it in a way that could be misconstrued as love for his family’s murderers.

This was very fruitful, because it made me realize a perfect parallel I hadn’t seen before. Sure, we hinted at shades of it, but going line by line reveals to us how Arianne and Doran have almost an identical arc. I’m pretty sure my drinking game idea was a deadly one.

[Stannis's Lawyer]

The Watcher (Areo, ADWD)

Princess Arianne returned in time for the stuffed peppers. My little princess, Hotah thought, but Arianne was a woman now. The scarlet silks she wore left no doubt of that. Of late she had changed in other ways as well.

(As with The Captain of Guards and the Soiled Knight, this chapter is from a non-Arianne POV, and consequently focuses on many different topics and characters besides Arianne. The analysis will focus on Arianne, with random quotes that have nothing to do with Arianne in the final Trivia section.)

(Short) Summary

(Note: “Sand Snakes” here refer to only Obara, Nym, and Tyene)

Ser Balon Swann has arrived in Sunspear with the head of Gregor Clegane. Although both Doran and the Sand Snakes are pleased with the painful way that Gregor’s death, Ser Balon is disturbed that a knight died by poisoning. Doran claims that the Lannisters have finally delivered justice. During the feast, Ser Balon eats little and constantly shows signs of anxiety, and is not Doran agrees to send Trystane and Myrcella to King’s Landing, and proposes that they go by ship. When Ser Balon is taken aback and makes excuses about why they should not go by ship, Doran agrees to send them by land. They agree to leave for the Water Gardens the next day.

When Doran is alone with only the Sand Snakes, Ellaria, Arianne, a maester, and Hotah, the Sand Snakes criticize him for sending Trys north, basically calling him weak and cowardly, but Arianne defends her father, the first time we have seen her publicly do so. Arianne then offers to help Doran put his blanket on. After the maester leaves, the Sand Snakes discuss Gregor’s skull, calling it “a start”. Despite the protests of Ellaria Sand, the Sand Snakes continue to advocate war. Doran sends Ellaria away and tells the Sand Snakes that “the war has already begun”, then Obara replies, “Aye, our sweet Arianne has seen to that.” Arianne flushes. They then discuss the fact that Ser Balon will meet Myrcella the next day, and Arianne reveals that Myrcella will tell Ser Balon that Darkstar killed Arys, not Hotah. Tyene proposes that they kill Ser Balon and all the people who accompanied him south, including “sweet young squires”. Doran is angered, and asks the Sand Snakes if he can trust them in Oberyn’s place. The Sand Snakes swear by Oberyn to serve Doran.

Arianne then urges Doran to “tell them”, and Doran reveals that Cersei intends to have Trystane killed by her men who are pretending to be outlaws in the Kingswood who are working for Tyrion (probably a reference to Shagga). The Sand Snakes are (perhaps hypocritically) shocked and horrified that Cersei would kill an innocent boy, and Obara proposes to send Cersei a bag of skulls. Doran reminds her that Ser Balon has guest right, and makes Obara help Ser Balon track down Darkstar in High Hermitage, Nymeria represent Dorne in the Small Council, and Tyene become a septa in order to get close to the High Sparrow. The Sand Snakes then leave after saying the Martell words, which are much better than the Yronwood words.

After the Snakes leave, Doran says “They are their father’s daughters”, to which Arianne replies with a smile, “Three Oberyns, with teats.” Doran then laughs, for the first time in what seems like years (“It had been so long since Hotah last heard him laugh, he had almost forgotten what it sounded like”). They then discuss the Volantene fleet that is moving west (thought to be Dany’s fleet but actually Young Griff’s), and Doran implies that Arianne has a task related to this fleet. Doran says that if Quentyn is with them, he will bring them up the Greenblood. Doran asks Arianne to kiss him, and then says he will leave for the Greenblood at first light (which is possibly Doranese for midday) the next day. Doran then goes to bed, asking Hotah, "Until the Mountain crushed my brother's skull, no Dornishmen had died in this War of the Five Kings. Tell me, Captain, is that my shame or my glory?" Hotah replies that that is not for him to say.

Analysis

Princess Arianne returned in time for the stuffed peppers. My little princess, Hotah thought, but Arianne was a woman now. The scarlet silks she wore left no doubt of that. Of late she had changed in other ways as well. Her plot to crown Myrcella had been betrayed and smashed, her white knight had perished bloodily at Hotah's hand, and she herself had been confined to the Spear Tower, condemned to solitude and silence. All of that had chastened her. There was something else as well, though, some secret her father had confided in her before releasing her from her confinement. What that was, the captain did not know.

This is how Hotah describes the changes Arianne underwent lately. Since Hotah, “the Captain of Guards” and “the Watcher”, is a master of observation, he is probably correct here. So Arianne in The Watcher is different from Arianne in The Queenmaker. Let’s see how exactly she changed.

Doran and Arianne’s relationship

First of all, what is glaringly obvious is the fundamental change in Arianne and Doran’s relationship:

Her sister Tyene gave answer. "What [Doran] always does," she purred. "Delay, obscure, prevaricate. Oh, no one does that half so well as our brave uncle."

"You do him wrong," said Princess Arianne. "Be quiet, all of you," the prince commanded.

Beneath the coverlet, his legs were pale, soft, ghastly. Both of his knees were red and swollen, and his toes were almost purple, twice the size they should have been. Areo Hotah had seen them a thousand times and still found them hard to look upon.

Princess Arianne came forward. "Let me help you, Father."

Arianne and Doran’s relationship has changed massively. Although we knew from her POVs that Arianne still respected Doran before The Princess in the Tower, she never really externally showed the eagerness she has here to defend, and help, him. Since The Watcher is only approximately about three weeks after The Princess in the Tower, Arianne’s good relationship with Doran here happened rather suddenly, Since Hotah

and Arianne from TWOW

do not mention anything extraordinary happening between The Princess in the Tower and The Watcher, Arianne’s sudden change WRT Doran was a result of Doran’s revelations in The Princess in the Tower.

We knew that the two probably had a good relationship from the prior chapters, but IMO the abruptness with which the relationship was restored indicates that their bond used to be very strong. After all, Quentyn was sent away at a young age, and Mellario left soon after, so it’s only natural that they, especially Doran, would turn to each other for comfort. So, considering the strength of the bond, Doran’s letter must have been an especially huge betrayal to Arianne, and as Arianne’s relationship with Doran deteriorated, Doran must also have felt betrayed and confused, leading to the situation in AFFC.

It appears that Arianne and Doran both wanted, subconsciously at least, to go back to the “good old days” of Arianne’s childhood, but with Doran not being very communicative, that wasn’t easy. Arianne apparently tried to gain Doran’s attention many times, but that would have just made Doran think that Arianne was childish and troublesome, and therefore even less willing to trust her and share his secrets.

I found this interesting:

Some of the tension went out of the prince. Hotah saw him sag back into his chair. He held out his hand, and Princess Arianne moved to his side to hold it. "Tell them, Father."

Prince Doran took a jagged breath. "Dorne still has friends at court. Friends who tell us things we were not meant to know. This invitation Cersei sent us is a ruse. Trystane is never meant to reach King's Landing. On the road back, somewhere in the kingswood, Ser Balon's party will be attacked by outlaws, and my son will die. I am asked to court only so that I may witness this attack with my own eyes and thereby absolve the queen of any blame. Oh, and these outlaws? They will be shouting, 'Halfman, Halfman,' as they attack. Ser Balon may even catch a quick glimpse of the Imp, though no one else will."

Doran told Arianne about Cersei’s plan to have Trystane killed (BTW, what would Cersei even gain from this?). As we see from Obara’s response to this ("Give me back my spear, Uncle. Cersei sent us a head. We should send her back a bag of them."), it was important to ensure that the Sand Snakes did not know of this beforehand. So Doran now trusts that Arianne will not spill the beans, in stark contrast to this:

”Arianne, your nature…to you, a secret was only a choice tale to whisper to Garin and Tyene in your bed of a night. Garin gossips as only the orphans can, and Tyene keeps nothing from Obara and the Lady Nym. And if they knew…Obara is too fond of wine, and Nym is too close to the Fowler twins. And who would the Fowler twins confide in?”

As Rhaenys_Targaryen showed, Arianne can indeed keep secrets, despite what Doran thought. Doran now tells Arianne secrets, even important ones such as Cersei’s plans. It is impossible to know for certain if this means that Doran trusts her or if it is simply Doran realizing that keeping secrets from her leads to bad results, but I’m confident the former is the case.

Prince Doran shared his secret smile with her.

The little princess smiled. "Three Oberyns, with teats."

Prince Doran laughed. It had been so long since Hotah last heard him laugh, he had almost forgotten what it sounded like.

With his relationship with his daughter returned to normalcy (I couldn’t really find a suitable word here), Doran seems to have found more joy in his life again.

What I do find rather problematic is this:

Hotah thinks

Princess Arianne returned in time for the stuffed peppers. My little princess, Hotah thought, but Arianne was a woman now.

but later,

The little princess smiled

Hotah reminds himself that Arianne is no longer a child, but a few pages later he reverts to calling her a little princess. Since Hotah shares much of Doran’s view on the world, Doran might still view Arianne as a child.

Arianne and Grudges

Another interesting thing I noted:

Princess Arianne unfolded from the cushion where she sat and put a hand on Hotah's arm.

Remember that this is Areo Hotah, the man who killed Arys Oakheart. We know from TPitT that Arianne came to genuinely like Arys, yet she seems to bear no grudges against Hotah. Similarly, Arianne does not appear to bear any grudges against Doran, despite having some legitimate reasons to do so. Arianne is clearly a very forgiving person.

Arianne’s views on the Queenmaking plot

”This war has already begun."

Obara laughed. "Aye, our sweet Arianne has seen to that."

The princess flushed, and Hotah saw a spasm of anger pass across her father's face. "What she did, she did as much for you as for herself. I would not be so quick to mock."

We see that Arianne now views the Queenmaker Plot as something to be ashamed of; it seems likely that she will now be more cautious, like Doran, who plays only games he knows he will win. But I know Julia Martell will have much and more to say about this, so I won’t say much more.

However, note that Arianne still uses some of the tactics she used for her Queenmaking plot (which Doran would never use, for very obvious reasons)

When the spun-sugar skulls were served, Ser Balon's mouth grew tight, and he gave the prince a lingering look to see if he was being mocked. Doran Martell took no notice, but his daughter did. "It is the cook's little jape, Ser Balon," said Arianne. "Even death is not sacred to a Dornishmen. You won't be cross with us, I pray?" She brushed the back of the white knight's hand with her fingers. "I hope you have enjoyed your time in Dorne."

"Everyone has been most hospitable, my lady."

Arianne touched the pin that clasped his cloak, with its quarreling swans. "I have always been fond of swans. No other bird is half so beautiful, this side of the Summer Isles."

"Your peacocks might dispute that," said Ser Balon. "They might," Said Arianne, "but peacocks are vain, proud creatures, strutting about in all those gaudy colors. Give me a swan serene in white or beautiful in black."

Ser Balon gave a nod and sipped his wine. This one is not so easily seduced as was his Sworn Brother, Hotah thought. Ser Arys was a boy, despite his years.

Trivia

The white knight did drink, as was only courteous. His companions did likewise. So did the Princess Arianne, Lady Jordayne, the Lord of Godsgrace, the Knight of Lemonwood, the Lady of Ghost Hill ... even Ellaria Sand, Prince Oberyn's beloved paramour, who had been with him in King's Landing when he died. Hotah paid more note to those who did not drink: Ser Daemon Sand, Lord Tremond Gargalen, the Fowler twins, Dagos Manwoody, the Ullers of the Hellholt, the Wyls of the Boneway. If there is trouble, it could start with one of them. Dorne was an angry and divided land, and Prince Doran's hold on it was not as firm as it might be. Many of his own lords thought him weak and would have welcomed open war with the Lannisters and the boy king on the Iron Throne.

The most belligerent Dornish Houses are the Gargalens of Salt Shore, the Fowlers of Skyreach, the Manwoodys of Kingsgrave, the Ullers of the Hellholt, and the Wyls of the Boneway. Interestingly, the Ullers and the Fowlers are the Houses Arianne thought would save her when she was imprisoned.

Also, the Wyls apparently do not follow the Yronwoods’ lead. Their name sounds rather Rhoynar. Maybe they were placed in the Boneway after Nymeria’s War to weaken Yronwood power?

The feast continued late into the night, presided over by the grinning skull on its pillar of black marble. Seven courses were served, in honor of the seven gods and the seven brothers of the Kingsguard. The soup was made with eggs and lemons, the long green peppers stuffed with cheese and onions. There were lamprey pies, capons glazed with honey, a whiskerfish from the bottom of the Greenblood that was so big it took four serving men to carry it to table. After that came a savory snake stew, chunks of seven different sorts of snake slow-simmered with dragon peppers and blood oranges and a dash of venom to give it a good bite. The stew was fiery hot, Hotah knew, though he tasted none of it. Sherbet followed, to cool the tongue. For the sweet, each guest was served a skull of spun sugar. When the crust was broken, they found sweet custard inside and bits of plum and cherry.

:drool:

When the spun-sugar skulls were served, Ser Balon's mouth grew tight, and he gave the prince a lingering look to see if he was being mocked. Doran Martell took no notice, but his daughter did. "It is the cook's little jape, Ser Balon," said Arianne. "Even death is not sacred to a Dornishmen. You won't be cross with us, I pray?"

Dornishmen seem to be stereotyped as being profane in the Dornish Marches, for some reason.

The man was eight feet tall, there is not another like him in all of Westeros. If any such appears again, Cersei Lannister will be exposed as a liar before all the Seven Kingdoms. She would be an utter fool to risk that. What could she hope to gain?

:lol:

"I am not blind, nor deaf. I know that you all believe me weak, frightened, feeble. Your father knew me better. Oberyn was ever the viper. Deadly, dangerous, unpredictable. No man dared tread on him. I was the grass. Pleasant, complaisant, sweet-smelling, swaying with every breeze. Who fears to walk upon the grass? But it is the grass that hides the viper from his enemies and shelters him until he strikes."

Best Doran quote.

"We could kill him, to be sure," said Tyene, "but then we would need to kill the rest of his party too, even those sweet young squires. That would be ... oh, so messy. "

"Seven save us," whispered Tyene. "Trystane? Why?"

"The woman must be mad," Obara said. "He's just a boy."

Hypocrites!

"A start?" said Ellaria Sand, incredulous. "Gods forbid. I would it were a finish. Tywin Lannister is dead. So are Robert Baratheon, Amory Lorch, and now Gregor Clegane, all those who had a hand in murdering Elia and her children. Even Joffrey, who was not yet born when Elia died. I saw the boy perish with mine own eyes, clawing at his throat as he tried to draw a breath. Who else is there to kill? Do Myrcella and Tommen need to die so the shades of Rhaenys and Aegon can be at rest? Where does it end?"

[...]

"Oberyn wanted vengeance for Elia. Now the three of you want vengeance for him. I have four daughters, I remind you. Your sisters. My Elia is fourteen, almost a woman. Obella is twelve, on the brink of maiden-hood. They worship you, as Dorea and Loreza worship them. If you should die, must El and Obella seek vengeance for you, then Dorea and Loreza for them? Is that how it goes, round and round forever? I ask again, where does it end?" Ellaria Sand laid her hand on the Mountain's head. "I saw your father die. Here is his killer. Can I take a skull to bed with me, to give me comfort in the night? Will it make me laugh, write me songs, care for me when I am old and sick?”

:bowdown:

Questions for discussion

1. Why is the chapter from Hotah's POV? For narrative reasons? (note that IIRC Arianne I TWOW was originally in ADWD)

2. When the spun-sugar skulls were served, Ser Balon's mouth grew tight, and he gave the prince a lingering look to see if he was being mocked. Why did Swann feel like he was being mocked?

3. "Sisters, truly, I know the poison Father used. If his spear so much as broke the Mountain's skin, Clegane is dead, I do not care how big he was." Since killing Gregor in a trial by combat was presumably not Oberyn's plan A, how does Tyene know what poison Oberyn used?

[Chebyshov]

Yay, onward to ADWD! Thank you, Stannis's Lawyer for that summary and analysis :cheers: . Certainly the continuing evolution of Doran and Arianne's relationship is most notable here. I thought I had an idea of what I wanted to say about this going into today, but since Julia Martell's line-by-line analysis of the tPitT conversation, I'm frantically rewriting it.

So first:

1. Why is the chapter from Hotah's POV? For narrative reasons? (note that IIRC Arianne I TWOW was originally in ADWD)

Excellent question. The Watcher places us (once again) outside of Arianne’s head. At first I was thinking that it might have been because Arianne missed out on something when she chased after Obara, but the only thing we got during that time was food porn. And Arianne was even back in time for the stuffed peppers!

Another reason may be that Martin wanted to establish Hotah as a POV character that will continue into TWOW, so he didn’t want to give him the once and done treatment in AFFC. Hotah also gives us unique insight into Dornish players from a security-thread angle. That’s worth something. But in terms of Arianne, there’s a couple of reasons why an objective view of her in this chapter might have made the most sense:
Hotah is able to observe a change in behavior for both Arianne in Doran. He sees Arianne as being chastened, yet also privy to some knowledge. He looks at a much closer relationship than he’s seen before. Though Arianne would certainly be thinking about her dynamic with Doran (likely something about ‘how could I have doubted him ever,’ etc.), I don’t think her subjective view would show us just how kind of adorably affectionate they’re both being:

Princess Arianne lingered when her cousins had departed. Areo Hotah remained as well, as was his place. “They are their father’s daughters,” the prince said.

The little princess smiled. “Three Oberyns, with teats.” Prince Doran laughed. It had been so long since Hotah last heard him laugh, he had almost forgotten what it sounded like

Hotah’s been around Doran much more than Arianne as of late. He understands the value of a Doran laugh better.

This objective view also better frames the obvious parallels between Doran and Arianne’s journey. It’s easy to get stuck believing Arianne’s self-deprecation and view Doran as the “wise father, imparting his wisdom.” Yet as we’ve come to see through this reread, their emotional journey is nearly the same, and equally humbling. Looking at them through a window rather than Arianne’s eyes highlights this.

Further, Arianne [finally] knows too much. Had we been in her head, we’d have heard her thinking about the plot to kill Trystane from the start. She’d also be thinking about the Snakes’ upcoming mission. When Doran is talking about “certain things coming to pass,” dragons, Quentyn, and Dany would float to her mind. It’s not that this information is withheld from us in this chapter. But having it all readily accessible from the start may have been distracting, and not let the plot just breathe. Hotah is designed to be a perfect window, that we really just see action, with maybe a couple of minor insights. Arianne’s brain, on the other hand, doesn’t turn off. I love her for it, but I think for this scene, Hotah may have been the better choice.

Keep in mind, if Arianne I TWOW was supposed to be in ADWD (I think that’s right?), Martin didn’t want us to be out of her head for too long.

We also are able to get Hotah’s read on her:

My little princess, Hotah thought, but Arianne was a woman now. The scarlet silks she wore left no doubt of that. Of late she had changed in other ways as well. Her plot to crown Myrcella had been betrayed and smashed, her white knight had perished bloodily at Hotah’s hand, and she herself had been confined to the Spear Tower, condemned to solitude and silence. All of that had chastened her. There was something else as well, though, some secret her father had confided in her before releasing her from her confinement. What that was, the captain did not know.

It’s interesting to see how a 3^rd party is viewing her “difference.” While I don’t completely agree with his “chastened” remark (more on that later, though we touched on it in tPitT examinations), it is interesting that Doran confiding “some secret” in Arianne is palpable. Hotah’s able to capture just how significant this shift in their relationship truly was.

Because I’m a fangirl, I personally would have preferred this to be in Arianne’s head. But the criticisms I had for the Arys chapter don’t really hold up her. Aside from one thought about her womanly curves, Hotah’s more focused on family dynamics, which is fine by me. And perhaps for others who are more inclined to believe Arianne’s self-deprecation, Hotah’s POV is more suitable.

[Julia Martell]

Arianne’s views on the Queenmaking plot

We see that Arianne now views the Queenmaker Plot as something to be ashamed of; it seems likely that she will now be more cautious, like Doran, who plays only games he knows he will win. But I know Julia Martell will have much and more to say about this, so I won’t say much more.

However, note that Arianne still uses some of the tactics she used for her Queenmaking plot (which Doran would never use, for very obvious reasons)

I think it's a mistake to see the changes as being in Arianne alone. She respects her father now, as well as loves him, but he's learned to respect her too. The fact that they concoct a game plan based on her pretending to be a silly flirt and him pretending to be weak old man shows how much they've come to value each other and what they each bring into their new partnership.

And the way they present a unified front to the Sand Snakes is nothing less than a complete paradigm shift in their relationship. Obara, Nym, and Tyene are probably completely flabbergasted by it, poor things.

And what's more, it works. Getting Ser Balon to accept their version of events with Myrcella's injury and participate in the Darkstar hunt in apparently such a foregone conclusion that it happens off screen, and the Sand Snakes the Sand Snakes have sworn on the one thing that matters to them, that they will behave themselves.

As for her views on the Queenmaker plot: Arianne has now internalized all of Doran's criticisms about it and is punishing herself more than her father ever could. Hopefully, I'll be able to prove that next week. Doran has done the same with her criticism of him. That's why he was so quick to defend her; he blames himself. (Which is a little harsh.)

That's what I think.

[Stannis's Lawyer]

I think it's a mistake to see the changes as being in Arianne alone. She respects her father now, as well as loves him, but he's learned to respect her too. The fact that they concoct a game plan based on her pretending to be a silly flirt and him pretending to be weak old man shows how much they've come to value each other and what they each bring into their new partnership.

And the way they present a unified front to the Sand Snakes is nothing less than a complete paradigm shift in their relationship. Obara, Nym, and Tyene are probably completely flabbergasted by it, poor things.

And what's more, it works. Getting Ser Balon to accept their version of events with Myrcella's injury and participate in the Darkstar hunt in apparently such a foregone conclusion that it happens off screen, and the Sand Snakes the Sand Snakes have sworn on the one thing that matters to them, that they will behave themselves.

As for her views on the Queenmaker plot: Arianne has now internalized all of Doran's criticisms about it and is punishing herself more than her father ever could. Hopefully, I'll be able to prove that next week. Doran has done the same with her criticism of him. That's why he was so quick to defend her; he blames himself. (Which is a little harsh.)

That's what I think.

Yes, Doran has also changed, and a lot. Maybe I wasn't clear enough about that? He now values Arianne much more, and he finally starts doing some major things, starting with the Sand Snakes.

About the Queenmaker Plot: :agree:

[SeanF]

Many thanks for the good write-up.

The most interesting change in Doran is that he, Arianne, and the Sand Snakes are now at one. Doran is no longer thinking about whether he should go to war - but when.

We see this in his response to Ellaria's plea for peace. The Sand Snakes may be fond of Ellaria, but they're dismissive of her concerns. Doran is a lot more sympathetic to Ellaria, but ultimately comes down on the side of war. He still needs to know if he can trust the Sand Snakes. But, his purpose in sending Nymeria and Tyene to Kings Landing is to further his war aims.

I think Doran realises that time is no longer his ally. He's in his mid-50s, and increasingly riddled with gout. If he wants to complete the destruction of the Lannisters, and restore the Targaryens to power, he has to strike in the very near future.

What do readers think of Ellaria's speech? It's moving, and I think she's speaking for the author here. Vengeance has come to the murderers of Elia and her children, even if it's not as Doran intended. I don't think that ultimately Doran, Arianne, Tyene, Obara, or Nymeria will survive the war that is coming.

[Chebyshov]

Okay, here's some more of my thoughts!

A place of high honor

Bowing, he took the chest from the hands of the white knight and carried it to the dais, where Doran Martell sat in his rolling chair between his daughter Arianne and his dead brother’s beloved paramour, Ellaria.
…
The prince had placed his daughter between himself and the white knight, a place of high honor.

Yes, we finally see Arianne in the position she’s deserved this whole time. I’m actually wondering where Doran used to sit her in the years between her reading the letter and his departure to The Water Gardens. Even if he intended for Arianne to be the Queen, wouldn’t he have stuck her next to him to keep up the ruse that she’d inherit Dorne? My best guess is that Hotah remarks on her seating because as far as he knows, Arianne was just released from prison for her treason, so that’s the reason it’s notable.

We also see that it’s more than just Arianne’s place in the seat of high honor, she acts in this role as well…as Doran’s right-hand man if you will. She has been given quite the active role in Operation Feel-out-the-Swann. Keep in mind, both Doran and Arianne have heard rumors about Cersei’s plan to kill Trystane. They’re trying to corroborate this information, while keeping Myrcella out of sight until they get a read on his character.

Her plot to crown Myrcella had been betrayed and smashed, her white knight had perished bloodily at Hotah’s hand, and she herself had been confined to the Spear Tower, condemned to solitude and silence. All of that had chastened her.

Hotah notes that Arianne seems “chastened,” meaning “subdued,” “restrained,” “put in her place” (yes, I’m sure we all know the definition, but just wanted to hammer that home ;)). Granted, at past feasts she was probably acting a bit less “appropriately” for the heir-apparent. If we think back to Garin daring her to tie a knot in Grandison’s beard, even though she refused, it indicates that she may have had a rather light-hearted and joking demeanor at all past feasts (and why the hell not?). Also that she likely spent her time hanging out with friends, though I'm sure she entertained the noble guests when it mattered or suited her (Renly, Arys).

Therefore, seeing Arianne in her “place of high honor”/acting as a proper host would suggest that she has been “cowed.” Yet she’s not. Rather, Arianne has been given an important role by Doran and she is acting on it. How does she approach Swann? By using her charm and flirtation, just like always:

When the spun-sugar skulls were served, Ser Balon’s mouth grew tight, and he gave the prince a lingering look to see if he was being mocked. Doran Martell took no notice, but his daughter did. “It is the cook’s little jape, Ser Balon,” said Arianne. “Even death is not sacred to a Dornishmen. You won’t be cross with us, I pray?” She brushed the back of the white knight’s hand with her fingers. “I hope you have enjoyed your time in Dorne.”

“Everyone has been most hospitable, my lady.”

Arianne touched the pin that clasped his cloak, with its quarreling swans. “I have always been fond of swans. No other bird is half so beautiful, this side of the Summer Isles.”

“Your peacocks might dispute that,” said Ser Balon.

“They might,” said Arianne, “but peacocks are vain, proud creatures, strutting about in all those gaudy colors. Give me a swan serene in white or beautiful in black.”

Arianne smiled as she slipped into her seat again, and murmured something in Ser Balon’s ear. The knight did not choose to respond.

Arianne’s flirtations are right in front of Doran; he knows fully well what she is doing, and in fact endorses it. Both Martells are working their hardest to put Swann in an uncomfortable position and to feel out any potential weaknesses/see if they can get him to give-up Operation-Kill-Trystane. Arianne flirts with Balon and gives him offensive sweet-treats. Doran casually suggests a shift in the travel plans that sound so reasonable Swann has to struggle with how to counter them. Both Doran and Arianne act as if Tryst going to KL is their idea, and not Swann’s.

Hotah notes that [in his opinion] Swann won’t be as easily seduced as Arys, which from both Arianne and Doran’s perspective, is a negative. If Swann were able to be swayed by Arianne, then Myrcella’s risky lie has a higher likelihood of working, mitigating operation kill-Trystane. If Swann is really able to be swayed by Arianne, maybe he'd even confess the whole thing...look at what Arys did for her!

Doran intentionally using Arianne’s method of playing the game shows that she wasn’t really “put in her place," with her wild ways stamped out. Rather, Doran realized her value, as she did with his. They’ve developed a mutual respect. If anything, Doran is the one who is “chastened,” no longer in a position to hand down his wisdom from high. Like I said yesterday, Doran’s “risk” was not telling Arianne, and his greatest stumbling block was his false assumption about her nature. Arianne, on the other hand, isn’t so much “put in her place,” as much as she’s come to understand what her place is…what it always was. But wasn’t until Doran’s own “abasement” that this understanding could be reached.

Of course, I don’t fault Hotah for his evaluation of the situation. From the outside, Arianne is the one with a visible change in behavior. Doran’s demeanor remains calm and deceivingly passive. Internally though, they’ve both had their taste of guilt and self-doubt, and though it stripped them of their defenses, it also enabled their relationship to become incredibly close, respectful, loving, and communicative.

I also want to bring attention to just how much planning must have gone into Arianne and Doran’s manipulation of Swann. At some point, they had to have a conversation along the lines of “okay, so we’ve settled on our game plan: first you distract him with your boobs…see if we can’t just do this the easy way. Then I’m going to casually broach returning Myrcella. Maybe we'll have the skulls served just before that. Then, bring up how Tryst should go too, and I’ll throw out the idea of ships…”

Keep in mind that before last week's chapter, Doran and Arianne hadn’t had any sort of true or deep conversation in a decade. Yet their synchronization in this chapter suggests that they’ve had many, many conversations since. They’re incredibly close at this point, both physically, indicated by her place of honor, and mentally.

Shifted roles, shifted views

This war has already begun.”

Obara laughed. “Aye, our sweet Arianne has seen to that.”

The princess flushed, and Hotah saw a spasm of anger pass across her father’s face. “What she did, she did as much for you as for herself. I would not be so quick to mock.”

Doran snapping at Obara in defense of Arianne is notable. All Obara was remarking was that Arianne may have begun the war with Myrcella’s mutilation. This isn’t a giant leap of logic. Keep in mind how Doran framed the situation to Arianne:

“Ser Balon may be suspicious, as you were when the Lannisters killed your sister and her children, but he will have no proof...”

“... until he speaks with Myrcella. Or must that brave child suffer a tragic accident as well? If so, it will mean war. No lie will save Dorne from the queen’s wroth if her daughter should perish whilst in my care.”
….
“Be that as it may. Lord Tywin is howling down in hell... where thousands more will soon be joining him, if your folly turns to war.” Her father grimaced, as if the very word were painful to him. “Is that what you want?”

Had it not been for Arianne’s ability to sway Myrcella, the Martells would still be in deep shit. As it is now, Myrcella’s lie is risky, and that her harm came under Doran’s watch means they're far from safe. It would seem that Obara is just pointing out the obvious. Yet Doran’s reaction suggests that he is angered at any charge laid against Arianne, and is quick to defend her.

Ready for another parallel? Arianne snaps at Tyene for pointing out the obvious about Doran:

Obara slowed her pace by half. “What will you do, then?”

Her sister Tyene gave answer. “What he always does,” she purred. “Delay, obscure, prevaricate. Oh, no one does that half so well as our brave uncle.”

“You do him wrong,” said Princess Arianne. “Be quiet, all of you,” the prince commanded. Not until the doors of his solar were safely closed behind them did he wheel his chair about to face the women.

I want to talk about Arianne’s relationship with the Snakes in a different section, but this rush to Doran’s defense in reaction to perfectly reasonable charges mirrors Doran’s defense of Arianne to Obara.

Is Tyene wrong? No. Remember when Nym tells Doran “No more should you doubt this, my prince—my sisters and I shall not wait ten-and-seven years for our vengeance”? 17 years is a long time for Doran to have done nothing visible in terms of vengeance. So yes, saying he “delays“ is fair. Saying he “obscures” and “prevaricates” is also fair. It is with great hesitancy and at Arianne’s urging that he finally tells The Snakes the plan, and even with that, he certainly obscures elements of it with his “certain things come to pass.” We also know that he’s kept information from Ellaria, as he tells the Snakes “there are things Ellaria does not know and should not know. This war has already begun.” If that's not obscuring or prevaricating, then I don't know what is.

The point being, Tyene really doesn’t “do Doran wrong,” but Arianne is trying to defend Doran’s intent. Just like Doran did for Arianne, even though Obara wasn't doing her wrong. Apparently what Arianne and Doran "meant" (over what they did) does matter. Maybe Hotah's pithy idioms shouldn't carry so much weight in the fandom :dunno: .

It’s worth calling attention to Doran’s “spasm of anger” towards Obara This exact wording was used to describe Doran’s reaction to Arianne asking why she should bother to help Doran out:

“I could tell Myrcella what to say, but why should I?”

A spasm of anger rippled across her father’s face. “I warn you, Arianne, I am out of patience.”

In this context, the spasm of anger across Doran’s face is because he feels he is being wronged. He doesn’t yet know about Arianne reading the letter, so unless she’s just acting like a war-mongering crazed lunatic, there’s really no reason why she shouldn’t help him out…why she shouldn’t beg his forgiveness. I’d argue that Doran’s second spasm of anger, directed towards Obara, is because he feels that Arianne is being wronged. Even if her actions kind of started a war (they didn’t truly, but likely would have), Obara is misrepresenting Arianne’s motives, and it’s sort of an inherent slight to her person, even if Obara is down with it.

Doran now knows Arianne’s true motivations for the QM plot.

The princess refused to be cowed. “I want my cousins freed. I want my uncle avenged. I want my rights.”

While Doran likely became apologetic towards Arianne due to that last bit about her rights, his defense of Arianne to Obara indicates that he hasn’t quickly forgotten her more selfless motivations either. Arianne did want her cousins freed, and had it not been for the perfect Molotov cocktail of Oberyn’s death, his daughters’ imprisonments, and Quentyn’s oversea adventure, Arianne wouldn’t have acted. She had a multitude of reasons to crown Myrcella, and nothing was so simple as “to start war.” Even if Obara meant it as “praise” to Arianne, Doran’s anger shows just how much he understands Arianne’s actions and doesn’t blame her. Yet Arianne blames herself and not Doran, hence her flushing. It would seem that both characters are masters at internalizing fault (“Martell guilt,” anyone?).

Arianne’s changing relationships with everyone, not just Doran

I think it's a mistake to see the changes as being in Arianne alone. She respects her father now, as well as loves him, but he's learned to respect her too. The fact that they concoct a game plan based on her pretending to be a silly flirt and him pretending to be weak old man shows how much they've come to value each other and what they each bring into their new partnership.

And the way they present a unified front to the Sand Snakes is nothing less than a complete paradigm shift in their relationship. Obara, Nym, and Tyene are probably completely flabbergasted by it, poor things.

Julia is absolutely correct; it’s not just Arianne’s relationship to Doran that’s changed. There is now visible distance between her and her cousins.

Arianne snapping at Tyene is notable, not only because it showcases how defensive she now is of Doran, but because Tyene was the closest person to her, pretty much for her whole life. The only thing she didn’t share with Tyene was her suspicion about her birthright being in danger. So Tyene’s rather negative opinion of Doran is likely born of Doran’s passivity, in stark contrast to her father’s charisma. From what we know of Arianne, her early fantasies, and her opinions of Doran’s “meekness,” she was likely able to complain to Tyene about Doran without getting into the specifics of her fear of being set aside. So Tyene saying that Doran is going to “delay, obscure, and prevaricate” is probably not anything new for her to say, and it’s something that in the past, Arianne would have agreed with.

When Arianne says “you do him wrong,” that has to be quite the shocking moment for Tyene, and probably also took a lot of courage for Arianne to stand-up to her quasi-sister. Our girl feels so guilty for her assumptions about Doran, along with saying things very similar in the past (like to Arys, for example), that she can’t help but snap at Tyene right away. I think Doran’s “Be quiet, all of you,” serves to highlight that this was almost an uncontrollable outburst from Arianne, and the ultimate shift in her allegiance. That is immediately followed up by Arianne offering to help Doran with his blanket and rushing to his side. Tyene must have thought she was on quaaludes.

Also notable is that Arianne kind of stays out of her cousins’ conversation. We do see her running off to persuade Obara to come back to the feast towards the beginning of the chapter. Who knows what was said, but Arianne’s shown a penchant for reading people (other than Doran), and perhaps she was able to use Doran’s weird words of wisdom about her eldest cousin to understand her nature and what would be persuasive. "She [Obara] is chasing after something she can never catch." Complete speculation of course.

But other than that direct interaction, Arianne sits very quietly while the Snakes bicker with Ellaria. SeanF raised a really good point about Ellaria. Here she gives this amazingly passionate and beautiful monologue about the cost of vengeance…only to be ignored by the Snakes and then kind of dismissed by Doran, who adds after she leaves, “eh, there’s stuff I’m keeping from her anyway.” It’s all a bit uncomfortable. Because I’m looking at Arianne’s relationships right now, I’ll hold off on Doran’s treatment of her, though I’d have to guess he and Ellaria had conversations prior to this encounter where he was much more receptive to what she had to say.

I think when it comes to Snakes vs. Ellaria, Arianne feels uncomfortable. Arianne definitely cares for her younger cousins, and has to respect where Ellaria is coming from. But like Doran, she also knows that wheels are in motion (Quentyn, Cersei’s planned attack on Trystane) and that the war has already begun.

Even after Ellaria leaves and Obara calls out Arianne for nearly starting the war single-handedly, Arianne doesn’t open her mouth. She flushes, feeling embarrassed for what she now considers to be an ill-conceived and poorly executed plan, although in this reread, many of us have come around on that point a bit. Still, in her mind (and not to step too much on Julia’s toes next week), she feels that she

was a foolish willful girl, playing at the game of thrones like a drunkard rolling dice.

This is where her head is at now, indicated by her embarrassment at Obara’s “praise.”

So the only times Arianne speaks up? To defend Doran, then to defend Hotah. The latter:

“That was praise,” Obara Sand insisted. “Procrastinate, obscure, prevaricate, dissemble, and delay all you like, Uncle, Ser Balon must still come face-to-face with Myrcella at the Water Gardens, and when he does he’s like to see she’s short an ear. And when the girl tells him how your captain cut Arys
Oakheart from neck to groin with that steel wife of his, well …”

“No.” Princess Arianne unfolded from the cushion where she sat and put a hand on Hotah’s arm. “That wasn’t how it happened, Cousin. Ser Arys was slain by Gerold Dayne.”

We see her calmly lying to those who were once her closest confidants, as well as offering reassurance to Hotah. Smooth as butter :cool4: . And also indicative of Arianne’s very selfless nature. Yes, she’ll standup for her birthright. She’ll take charge of situations. She’ll see to her own honor. But at the end of the day, Arianne is not selfish, and will defend others far more easily than she’ll defend herself. A family trait.

After the Snakes promise on Oberyn’s grave to not be total nutcases:

Some of the tension went out of the prince. Hotah saw him sag back into his chair. He held out his hand, and Princess Arianne moved to his side to hold it. “Tell them, Father.”

I think Arianne wants everyone to get on the same page. We’re seeing in her sort of passive behavior with the Snakes that her allegiance has shifted completely to Doran, but it’s probably difficult for her to oppose her cousins. Remember when she spent an entire night screaming their names? She loves them, but she cannot explain why her dynamic with Doran has changed so markedly without coming clean about her birthright (which she’ll never do now knowing that it was a false assumption). So I think Arianne just wants to move forward, get them onboard, and fill the role of princess that she now knows Doran wants her to fill. Her physical actions show her loyalty, and also sort of encourages the Snakes to be receptive to what he's about to say.

Arianne concludes her interaction with the Snakes in a pretty abrupt manner:

“I know you will not fail us, cousins.” Arianne went to each of them in turn, took their hands, kissed them lightly on the lips. “Obara, so fierce. Nymeria, my sister. Tyene, sweetling. I love you all. The sun of Dorne goes with you.”

I’m really wondering if she had any conversations with the Snakes in-between this and her TWOW chapter, or prior to the feast. I can’t imagine had she and Tyene talked beforehand Tyene wouldn’t have been like, “yo, Doran sucks for locking me up,” to which Arianne probably would have defended him, so it does seem like this feast marks their first interactions. Maybe in her later TWOW chapters she’ll reflect more on this, but it is notable how brief their interaction was. This chapter shows us that it’s all about Doran and Arianne.

And frankly, this reread has shown us that it's all about Doran and Arianne. We've seen their beautiful parallel arcs, and this is the chapter where they're finally on the same page, moving forward with the same thoughts and motives.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Ok, Julia darling, I read. I'll comment later, because I'm hungry.

Also, Arianne and Aegon both received the same advice about trust, even phrased the same, almost. :P

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Also, Arianne and Aegon both received the same advice about trust, even phrased the same, almost. :P

Whilst both being heavily associated/surrounded by cyvasse.. :D

Will comment on more stuff tomorrow :)

[SeanF]

Chebyshov, very good comments. There's another reason for Arianne to put a distance between herself and the Sand Snakes. She now knows that she will be their ruler, and they will be her subjects. They have to get used to obeying her and her father now, so she won't tolerate disrespect towards her father.

Whether they'll see it the same way remains to be seen.