Trial by Folly: The Arianne Martell Reread Project [TWOW Arianne I spoilers]

[Hrafntýr]

<snip>

However, given the response we've seen to other women in the story and their sexuality, many tend to draw criticism from it. I think on the first read it's easy to peg her as superficial and wanton, which isn't made much better by the fact that Arys is our first real look at her and he has the same thoughts. His misogynistic thoughts color this chapter. This is why I really struggle with Martin's male-gaze decision in that chapter. I think it's hard to talk about Arianne's reputation in the fandom without pointing to these inherently sexist mechanisms at play in her story.

<snip>

I've struggled with that, too, though I've sort of reconciled myself to it by acknowledging the extent to which it mirrors the reality for any beautiful, sexy woman who also happens to be smart, charismatic and competent: her beauty and sexual self-confidence call forth sexist stereotypes, both in-world and in readers. I think GRRM does this a lot, making readers complicit in judgments of characters, inciting our attractions or aversions, only to later make us ashamed of how easily we'd been manipulated. But alas, if read superficially, the Queenmaker chapter might do little to undermine the sexist perspective established in Arys' chapter.

Arianne's arc would be completely different had we opened with her pov, a woman with political designs, acting to fulfill them, and only later have seen her through the eyes of others. Arys would have been a laughingstock (however ridiculous and misplaced we might think his chivalry, it's hard to completely dismiss his sincerity) and an utter tool, and Arianne herself might then have come across as yet a different stereotype, the scheming bitch, from which we were somewhat saved by Arys' pov. I'm sure it needn't have been written that way (we might have seen her own insecurities earlier on), but it seems like it might have been a risk.

It's hard for me to judge that male-gaze pov decision without knowing where Arianne's narrative will take her. I read the "Queenmaker" designation, like the other non-personal-name titles, as an indication that the narrative is one of finding one's identity, with the non-name titles being temporary roles adopted along the way before the character comes into his or her own.

In this chapter, Arianne is not there yet. She's still out to get Doran's attention; despite all the wonderful analysis in this thread of the ways in which Arianne is starting to feel more confident in herself as an independent political player, part of me thinks that there might still have been an unconscious desire to get caught, that this might have been the "fucking the pool boy" stunt that finally got Doran's attention (and kudos to Julia Martell for that excellent analogy!). I'm not saying that she didn't want to crown Myrcella or draw Dorne into war with the IT and set herself up as the new ruler of Dorne, but I think that in her mind there may have been two possible scenarios: the plan worked, or it failed and her father would finally have to confront her. The "this was not supposed to happen" is in response to a third scenario that she hadn't at all envisioned, since she was still operating within of framework of considering her actions from her father's perspective.

While I think that some part of Arianne might have wanted that, the beautiful analyses you all have offered demonstrates the incredible personal development we see in the course of this chapter, that Arianne was actually starting to think about next steps, about how she would move things forward; she started to escape the developmentally stultifying prison of her (supposed) rejection by her father. Only to be landed in a more literal prison!

[Dornish Vinegar]

Gah guys this is so cool, we've getting so much good analysis! This is so so cool, y'all are great :wub:

<snip>

But yeah, I absolutely love how DV’s analysis focused on her psychological processes (almost like it’s a specialty :P), because I think it’s easy to fall into the trap of agreeing with Arianne’s self-deprecation.

Some may say ;)

But yeah Cheb, that's a great analysis of what's contributed to Arianne's impression in the fandom, excellent breakdown. It's nice having it verbalized like that, in a way that we can describe and communicate to others. You know, if we ever feel like preachin' dat Arianne gospel

I love that "Dornish je ne sais quoi," that is so what it is. I agree that Quentyn doesn't really seem to possess it, but that Arianne has it in spades. If she does ever decide to vie for Dornish independence, if she does it after she's fully developed as a person and learned the lessons she's been learning, Westeros had better watch the fuck out.

I certainly think that we're suppose to be contrasting Arianne and Quentyn, I mean Arianne basically tells us to.

And Arianne is a master of projection, the Quentyn in her head is exactly like her, and wants what she wants. The real Quentyn is... nothing like that. He's a nice guy, he does his best. If he were Prince of Dorne he would be... okay. He would do his job no matter how uncomfortable to made him. People would follow him out of duty, probably, but I doubt he would arrange for the assassination of the Tyrell overlord of Dorne, raise the whole place up in a rebellion that undid several years of military occupation in two weeks, and lock the Aemon the Dragon Knight in a cage suspended over a snake pit.

Arianne would do those things. (Or try to, anyway.) She would have told Rhaenys Targaryan to fuck off. I mean, she told her father to fuck off when he had a sword over her head, she definitely dragon-staring-down material. And she seems to have that Martell je ne said quoi, that certain fire to her that allowed all the historical Martells we've heard of take what is essentially a random collection of ethnic groups in a not ideal physical environment and turn it into the closest thing Planetos has to an Nation State.

Have any of you seen the TNG episode Tapestry? (If not, go see it, it's very good.) Sometimes you need to have that fuck up in your life, that one big regret, to grow into your potential.

Those are my random thoughts on Arianne versus Quentyn.

I love that "Dornish je ne sais quoi," that is so what it is. I agree that Quentyn doesn't really seem to possess it, but that Arianne has it in spades. If she does ever decide to vie for Dornish independence, if she does it after she's fully developed as a person and learned the lessons she's been learning, Westeros had better watch the fuck out.

What's TNG?

In addition to Arianne's desert survival skills, she is also a very competent horsewoman, not being tired after their long ride and easily vaulting into the saddle at a moment's notice.

Nice catch! I didn't even think of that, but that is very impressive now that you bring it up.

Re: Quentyn not thinking of Arianne all that much, IIRC the interesting thing is that he doesn't think about how he was supposed to become the Prince of Dorne either, nor does he feel any resentment over losing this chance. Could it be that Doran actually never sent that fateful letter in the form that Arianne saw? That Doran also kept Quentyn in the dark? That would compound all the tragic misunderstandings that the letter caused between father and daughter.

And I can only agree with the analysis of Arianne here, as somebody, who is very capable of planning and keeping secrets and who has learned much more from Doran than the latter was willing to give her credit for. Outwardly, Quentyn may have seemed more like Doran, but inwardly, Arianne is much more like her father. Doran was even the one who married a not-completely suitable woman, which subsequently led to problems, so, it isn't like he had been always deliberate and rational when young!

That's an interesting idea that Doran never actually sent the letter to Quent. It really would compound the tragedy of the whole situation, like you say. I'd love to keep that possibility in mind if we ever do a Quentyn reread. Seems like just the kind of thing GRRM would do.

And that's a good point about the inward and outward similarities between Doran and his children, I definitely agree! The layers of identity and parent-to-child relationships in these Arianne chapters, and indeed in the Areo and Quentyn chapters, are so many and so provocative. Those are definitely themes through all the characters and POVs, I think, but there's something about these Dornish ones that is just so compelling. I don't know what it is!

Speaking of which, I wonder about the repeated stress on Dorne not being able to fight off the Lannister-Tyrell alliance, or prior to that, the certainty that Robert would have been able to crush them. I mean, Dorne was never afraid to tussle with the rest of Westeros before, and on the whole has been able to hold it's own, even if at grievious cost. It is one thing for Doran to be unwilling to incur that cost, but quite another to claim, despite all the historical precedents, that Dorne would have been literally doomed.

Hear, hear! Thanks for putting that to words. That's why I'm so interested in lethality of the Dornish desert in the autumn and the winter. It just seems like if they have those natural defenses across all seasons, there's not much to the idea that Dorne would be easily defeated like some people seem to like so much. They've go the passes that they can close off, they've got a desert that'll kill by the thousands, and a coastline that isn't really conducive to any sort of amphibious landing, and a history that says they just are not easily tangled with.

[Chebyshov]

What's TNG?

http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/facepalm.gif

(sorry, I had to)

And that's a good point about the inward and outward similarities between Doran and his children, I definitely agree! The layers of identity and parent-to-child relationships in these Arianne chapters, and indeed in the Areo and Quentyn chapters, are so many and so provocative. Those are definitely themes through all the characters and POVs, I think, but there's something about these Dornish ones that is just so compelling. I don't know what it is!

Yeah, I used to attribute it to feminist issues (certainly a factor), but the Martells are just an incredibly well-developed family (minus the Snakes...sorry gals; though we still understand their motivation at least). It kills me that the show is taking away the two interesting siblings in that family and instead we get aged-up, hunky Trystane.

I've struggled with that, too, though I've sort of reconciled myself to it by acknowledging the extent to which it mirrors the reality for any beautiful, sexy woman who also happens to be smart, charismatic and competent: her beauty and sexual self-confidence call forth sexist stereotypes, both in-world and in readers. I think GRRM does this a lot, making readers complicit in judgments of characters, inciting our attractions or aversions, only to later make us ashamed of how easily we'd been manipulated. But alas, if read superficially, the Queenmaker chapter might do little to undermine the sexist perspective established in Arys' chapter.

Arianne's arc would be completely different had we opened with her pov, a woman with political designs, acting to fulfill them, and only later have seen her through the eyes of others. Arys would have been a laughingstock (however ridiculous and misplaced we might think his chivalry, it's hard to completely dismiss his sincerity) and an utter tool, and Arianne herself might then have come across as yet a different stereotype, the scheming bitch, from which we were somewhat saved by Arys' pov. I'm sure it needn't have been written that way (we might have seen her own insecurities earlier on), but it seems like it might have been a risk.

Excellent point. Obviously it speaks volumes about women in literature if we're picking between bubbly idiot and vile, scheming bitch, but thinking about it now, if we were in her head as she's manipulating Arys, that would have been a fairly negative first introduction. When she talks to him about her birthright at last, she is shaking and painted in a "vulnerable" light. Inside her head, she might have thought Sansa's "good, a tear is good" thing, and she'd be thought of as callous and entitled.

And you're right about GRRM purposely lulling us into thinking we understand a character or her/his arc, only to pull the rug out. Look at how opinions of Jaime have changed, or Sansa especially. Then again, Arianne falls victim to having an incredibly limited number of chapters in comparison, so there's not as much material to sway people.

[Dornish Vinegar]

http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/facepalm.gif

(sorry, I had to)

Yeah, I used to attribute it to feminist issues (certainly a factor), but the Martells are just an incredibly well-developed family (minus the Snakes...sorry gals; though we still understand their motivation at least). It kills me that the show is taking away the two interesting siblings in that family and instead we get aged-up, hunky Trystane.

I supposed I walked into that one didn't I! Lololololol

Don't worry, I'm sure the teenage love story will be worth it :rolleyes:

[Chebyshov]

You know, the more I think about this chapter, the more I think her choice in co-conspirators was just fine. Drey, Sylva, and Goldtooth were all being kind of silly, but that was really their function. They were the ones who kept everything lighthearted and kept the conversation anyway from the very reasonable questions/objections Myrcella might raise (and House Dalt and Santagar being implicated was an added bonus). It sounds like Arys kind of dropped the ball giving Myrcella any heads up, so it all fell to the QM crew, who also needed to focus on crossing the desert while actively committing treason, to keep things running smoothly. And they did.

Like, Myrcella's a kid, but she's no fool. When she's all "dafuq" about the throne, Arianne explains it quickly but then immediately jumps into introducing everyone. Then Sylva takes over Myrcella-duty by serving her food. On the journey, once Myrcella begins complaining, both Garin and Drey take over keeping her spirits up, by talking about the lands and her time in Dorne.

[SeanF]

Dornish Vinegar, thanks for the write-up.

I'll put my cards on the table, and say that I think this whole plot was a dreadful idea. Arianne was very lucky that it ended as it did.

Imagine if she had got to the Hellholt, and proclaimed Myrcella as Queen of Westeros. There are several alternatives:-

1. None of the Dornish nobility rally to an obviously doomed cause. The whole thing is a massive embarrassment for Prince Doran, who has to disown his daughter, perhaps surrendering her to Kings Landing to be tried for treason.

2. Some of the Dornish nobility do rally to the cause. There's civil war in Dorne between forces loyal to Arianne and those who are loyal to her father.

3. The plot succeeds. Arianne succeeds in overthrowing and arresting her father and brother, and Dorne goes to war with the rest of the Seven Kingdoms. Dornish military tactics are designed to defeat an invader, by making the price for occupying Dorne too high. They're not designed to facilitate a Dornish invasion of the Stormlands. Dorne would lose in any fight against the government in Kings Landing. Even if Arianne succeeds in maintaining a precarious independence, with Myrcella as a nominal ruler, she's placed her people in a very precarious position.

A further point, what happens to her father and brother if they're placed under arrest? So long as they're alive, they're a constant danger to her regime. We can guess the kind of advice that Darkstar and the Sand Snakes would be giving her. Or they might act to get rid of this threat without even consulting her.

[Chebyshov]

Dornish Vinegar, thanks for the write-up.

I'll put my cards on the table, and say that I think this whole plot was a dreadful idea. Arianne was very lucky that it ended as it did.

Imagine if she had got to the Hellholt, and proclaimed Myrcella as Queen of Westeros. There are several alternatives:-

1. None of the Dornish nobility rally to an obviously doomed cause. The whole thing is a massive embarrassment for Prince Doran, who has to disown his daughter, perhaps surrendering her to Kings Landing to be tried for treason.

2. Some of the Dornish nobility do rally to the cause. There's civil war in Dorne between forces loyal to Arianne and those who are loyal to her father.

3. The plot succeeds. Arianne succeeds in overthrowing and arresting her father and brother, and Dorne goes to war with the rest of the Seven Kingdoms. Dornish military tactics are designed to defeat an invader, by making the price for occupying Dorne too high. They're not designed to facilitate a Dornish invasion of the Stormlands. Dorne would lose in any fight against the government in Kings Landing. Even if Arianne succeeds in maintaining a precarious independence, with Myrcella as a nominal ruler, she's placed her people in a very precarious position.

A further point, what happens to her father and brother if they're placed under arrest? So long as they're alive, they're a constant danger to her regime. We can guess the kind of advice that Darkstar and the Sand Snakes would be giving her. Or they might act to get rid of this threat without even consulting her.

You're certainly not alone in your sentiments, that's for sure. And at the start of the reread I happened to agree, hence the title of this project. Though the more we got into it, the less I viewed the QM plot as an act of sheer folly.

To your points:

1. Arianne assessed the political climate of Dorne before she set out; they were inflamed by Oberyn’s death, inflamed by the Sand Snakes’ imprisonments, and ready for a fight. They’ve been ready for a fight since Elia was raped and murdered. And this isn’t just Arianne’s opinion: Arys notes the tensions on the streets, and Hotah refers to Dorne as an “angry, divided land.” Even Doran fears the passions of the people so much that he sees fit to return to Sunspear to mitigate the situation. So this is unlikely.

2. Keep in mind, Arianne isn’t raising banners for her own birthright. In fact, no one knows about this motive with the exception of Arys. She’s crowning Myrcella and asserting Dornish values. This wasn’t to cause a civil war in Dorne; this was more to force Doran’s hand into acting, into having a war. Doran’s “arrest” would have taken place after they battled off the Lannister/Tyrell forces. In Arianne’s mind, she’d have the queen in her pocket (look at how successful her manipulation of Myrcella has been), along with bannermen who now view Arianne as their titular leader. She’d be the one who nobly led Dorne to defend Myrcella’s birthright, and there’s no company of sellswords that would be able to argue with that. Doran wouldn’t dare replace her after this fight.

If a few bannermen flocked to Arianne's cause, Doran would either declare a civil war, which goes against the wants of his people, or he would aid "Myrcella's" cause. If war is coming to Dorne, Doran's smart enough to answer without turning towards in-fighting. Arianne notes that Yronwood might not want to go along with this, likely due to her perception of Anders as "Criston Cole reborn," but the idea is that the other bannermen of Dorne will flock to the cause, likely under Doran's reluctant, but necessary orders.

3. Again, she’s not out to overthrow him directly. No one knows he’s a target. She’d negotiate the conditions of his “imprisonment,” having him live out his days in the Water Gardens as a figurehead. She’d be the princess of Dorne, and the active ruler, though perhaps her official title would be “Castellan.” But the whole thing is that Arianne wants no slights to Doran’s “honor or person.” She doesn’t want this to look like an overthrowing of her father’s rule. She simply wants what is hers, of which she (logically, though incorrectly) assumes she is being deprived.

Her biggest mistake? Underestimating Doran’s omnipresence/true nature. And given the fact that he’s, as far as she can tell, sat and done nothing for 17 years, it’s not the worst assumption. There’s also the bit about troop numbers, but that’s a weirder conversation to have, and truthfully given Dorne’s past military successes, I don’t think assuming a Dornish victory was idiotic.

[SeanF]

The problem with war, civil or otherwise, is how unpredictable it is, and how rapidly the violence and killing escalates.

In some ways, I see a parallel between the Queenmaking plot, and Theon's seizure of Winterfell. Theon's plot was very clever, tactically, but a strategic disaster - not least for Theon himself. Had Arianne's plot succeeded, I think the conclusion would have been similar. Theon ended up doing things that made him feel sick inside, like consenting to the murder of his lover and her children. I think Arianne would have finished in a similar position, had she come into conflict with her father and brother.

[Stannis's Lawyer]

The problem with war, civil or otherwise, is how unpredictable it is, and how rapidly the violence and killing escalates.

In some ways, I see a parallel between the Queenmaking plot, and Theon's seizure of Winterfell. Theon's plot was very clever, tactically, but a strategic disaster - not least for Theon himself. Had Arianne's plot succeeded, I think the conclusion would have been similar. Theon ended up doing things that made him feel sick inside, like consenting to the murder of his lover and her children. I think Arianne would have finished in a similar position, had she come into conflict with her father and brother.

It's true that (Regent?) Arianne would have to make some impossible choices, especially regarding Doran, but unlike Theon's obviously untenable position, Arianne had a chance if she could take out Anders Yronwood quickly enough. That would depend on the strategic capabilities of Darkstar, which we know nothing about, so I'm not quite sure in the end.

[Julia Martell]

aFfC Arianne: Chapter 40: The Princess in the Tower - Part 1

This is the first part of a chapter that is, to this point, THE Arianne chapter. It establishes her character, then proceeds to tear it down. But that’s what makes it brilliant.

The chapter begins when Arianne is first confined to her room atop the Spear Tower. At least I think it does. Arianne doesn’t believe in thinking in straight lines. She immediately thinks the worse, trying to convince herself that her father doesn’t want her dead.

“Why would her father go to such great pains to provide for her comfort in captivity if he had marked her for a traitor’s death? He cannot mean to kill me, she told herself a hundred times. He does not have it in him to be so cruel. I am his blood and seed, his heir, his only daughter.”

She thinks back to when they were on the road back from the Greenblood. She begs Areo to speak for her, saying she never intended Myrcella to be harmed. Areo tells her her intentions don’t matter and that Doran will decide what becomes of her.

Arianne arrives at Sunspear and is greeted by Ser Manfrey Martell and Ricasso the Seneschal. Ser Manfrey tells her she’s to stay there to await the Prince’s pleasure. Arianne immediately asks after her friends and is told they’ve been taken to Ghaston Grey, apparently the Dornish version the Devil’s Island. Arianne is horrified by this, she tells Ser Manfrey that she should be that one held responsible for the fiasco, not her friends. She says she wants to see Doran. Ser Manfrey blows her off.

“All they did they did for love for me. If my father must have blood, it should be mine.”

“As you say, princess.”

“I want to speak with him.”

“He thought you might.” Ser Manfrey took her arm and marched her up the steps, up and up until her breath grew short. The Spear Tower stood a hundred and a half feet high, and her cell was nearly at the top. Arianne eyed every door they passed, wondering if one of the Sand Snakes might be locked within.”

She explores her prison a little bit, then her thoughts turn to her guilt over Ser Arys Oakheart’s death. She begins to cry uncontrollably and tells herself that it’s all a nightmare. When she wakes up, she chooses to focus on her anger over being betrayed.

She expects her father that day, and dresses super sexy to make him uncomfortable. He never comes.

And there’s a little bit of food porn.

“When might I see my father?” she asked, but none of them would answer. The kid had been roasted with lemon and honey. With it were grape leaves stuffed with a mélange of raisins, onions, mushrooms, and fiery dragon peppers. “I am not hungry,” Arianne said. Her friends would be eating ship’s biscuits and salt beef on their way to Ghaston Grey. “Take this away and bring me Prince Doran.” But they left the food, and her father did not come. After a while, hunger weakened her resolve, so she sat and ate.”

Yummy.

Arianne continues to be be obsessed with two things; the fact that Arys Oakheart died stupidly for her, and the fact that one of her friends betrayed her. (Although, probably no one did.) She reflects on the whole Darkstar thing, saying what many of us have, that it doesn’t seem to make sense. She also thinks about Ser Arys. She wonders if he committed suicide by Areo, because of his overwhelming guilt. She is horrified that Myrcella was hurt.

Arianne tries to distract herself by reading the books in her room, which she finds boring, and look out the windows at the spectacular views. She describes that she has every comfort, but none of the servants will actually speak to her. She tries to ask them about Myrcella and Darkstar, but they maintain their silence. She mentions that the last time she saw Myrcella, she had silk bandages around her face and was feverish.

She begins to consider the horrifying idea that her father means to keep her locked in that room for the rest of her life. She decides to channel her emotions into anger and thinks about the Sand Snakes, especially Tyene, who she has been close to all her life. She bangs on the floor and yells out the window, hoping that her cousins are also locked in the tower and can hear her. It has no effect.

“The princess spent half the night hanging out the window, calling till her throat was raw, but no answering shouts came back to her. That frightened her more than she could say. If the Sand Snakes were imprisoned in the Spear Tower, they surely would have heard her shouting. Why didn’t they answer? If Father has done them harm, I will never forgive him, never, she told herself.”

A fortnight passes. Arianne decides to try a more proactive strategy.

First she tries to pull rank on the servants, commanding them to take her to the Prince. They don’t answer. She tries a half-hearted escape attempt with the old “running out when they come to feed me” trick, but that is also comical.

Arianne decides she must be “more subtle”. She remembers that one of the maids, Cedra, once had a thing with her friend and fellow conspirator Garin. She begins chit chatting to Cedra about nothing during her bath. On the second day this happens, she casually mentions Garin and notes that Cedra’s reaction suggests that she has feelings for him.

The Princess begins to manipulate Cedra. She tells her how worried she is about Garin’s survival if he’s imprisoned at Ghaston Grey. Over the course of the next four days, she continues to paint the bleakest picture imaginable of his fate, culminating in a vivid story about Garin committing suicide by throwing himself out of the window.

“During her next bath, she spoke of her imprisoned friends, especially Garin. “He’s the one I fear for most,” she confided to the serving girl. “The orphans are free spirits, they live to wander. Garin needs sunshine and fresh air. If they lock him away in some dank stone cell, how will he survive? He will not last a year at Ghaston Grey.” Cedra did not reply, but her face was pale when Arianne rose from the water, and she was squeezing the sponge so tightly that soap was dripping on the Myrish carpet.

Even so, it was four more days and two more baths before the girl was hers. “Please,” Cedra finally whispered, after Arianne had painted a vivid picture of Garin throwing himself from the window of his cell, to taste freedom one last time before he died. “You have to help him. Please don’t let him die.”

Cedra finally cracks. She begs Arianne to help Garin, and Arianne gets her to agree to smuggle a message out of the castle.

With a messenger secured, Arianne begins to carefully consider all her father’s bannermen and which ones would a) not side with Quentyn, and b) be powerful enough to be able to strong arm the Prince into releasing her.

She rejects the Orphans of the Greenblood and her mother as not having any influence. She also dismisses Lord Yronwood because she supposes him to be Quentyn’s main supporter. She then considers the knightly houses of Dalt and Spotswood, but decides that both the heads of those houses are too dutiful to go against Doran, despite the fact that both their heirs have been caught up in Arianne’s conspiracy.

She decides that the Ullers and the Fowlers are her only real options. She finally decides against the Ullers because she feels their lord is too reckless when angry. She settles on Lord Fowler, both because his house is a long time rival of the Yronwoods, and because his daughters are close Nymeria Sand. However, she worries about their long standing loyalty to Sunspear and whether Lord Fowler would be willing to stand up to the Prince.

The Princess spends “days” composing the letter, using the bottom of a page out of the Seven Pointed Star. She promises a hundred pieces of silver to the messenger and hints at marriage for the man who will rescue her. She hopes that he will have all his own teeth, unlike the old dudes her father had been trying to set her up with.

Arianne tells Cedra to find someone going to the Prince’s Pass and to report back.

Cedra never returns and the servants ignore all of Arianne’s questions about her. She tries to summon Ricasso the Seneschal, but she is again ignored. In her anger, she dumps a flagon of wine on a servant’s head.

She considers, again, the possibility that her father intends to imprison her forever. Or else, she thinks, he intents to marry her to some old dude against her will.

She reflects on how she always expected to marry a high lord her father chose for her, in contrast to the Sand Snakes who were free to marry whoever or not at all. She thinks of both the Dalt brothers, and Ser Daemon Sand, who all asked for her hand and were refused, and of the succession of old, non-Dornish men who her father had suggested to her. She recalls that her father had received offers for Willas Tyrell and Edmure Tully, and refused them both. He even had Oberyn bring her back home when she attempted to run away to Highgarden to meet Willas Tyrell. She resolves that she rather die than marry an eighty-year-old man against her will.

Finally, after about a month of imprisonment and silence, and after trying and failing to pull a Cedra on the other servants, Arianne goes into full depression mode.

“By that time, the princess would have welcomed a touch of a hot iron, or an evening on the rack. The loneliness was like to drive her mad. I deserve a headsman’s axe for what I did, but he will not even give me that. He would sooner shut me away and forget I ever lived. She wondered if Maester Caleotte was drawing a proclamation to name her brother Quentyn heir to Dorne.”

She loses track of the days. She doesn’t leave her bed except to go to the privy. She stops eating. For the first time, she prays to the Mother for mercy, and to the Warrior for courage. She throws food out the window so as not to be tempted by. Her depression and lack of food physically weaken her.

[Julia Martell]

Observations and Other Randomness

Arianne’s quirks and escapades deserve their own little section.

“She and Tyene had learned to read together, learned to ride together, learned to dance together. […] They shared meals and beds and jewelry. They would have shared their first man as well, but Drey got too excited and spurted all over Tyene’s fingers the moment she drew him from his breeches. Her hands are dangerous. The memory made her smile.”

Poor, dumb Drey.

“One year King Robert’s brother came to visit and she did her best to seduce him, but she was half a girl and Lord Renly seemed more bemused than inflamed by her overtures. ”

I bet he was.

“And the Lord of the Crossing had wed again, so she was safe from him as well.”

Thank the gods for that! Although it may have been the most efficient way to get rid of him.

“Grandison was called the Greybeard, but by the time she’d met him his beard had gone snow white. At the welcoming feast, he had gone to sleep between the fish course and the meat. Drey called that apt, since his sigil was a sleeping lion. Garin challenged her to see if she could tie a knot in his beard without waking him, but Arianne refrained. Grandison had seemed a pleasant fellow, less querulous than Estermont and more robust than Rosby.”

Three points; firstly, god her friends sound like fun, secondly, Arianne seems to have managed to maintain her princely dignity throughout these horrible blind dates, and thirdly, I find her admission that Grandison was actually quite a nice guy very endearing.

“If she desired some favorite food, figs or olives or peppers stuffed with cheese, she need only tell Belandra, and it would appear.”

We totally have all the same favourite foods. :-)

“When they were ten Arianne had stolen a flagon of wine, and the two of them had gotten drunk together. ”

The only thing more awesome than this is imaging Doran and Oberyn’s reactions.

[Julia Martell]

Analysis

Her Father’s Idea of Torment

Basically, this is Arianne’s worst nightmare.

She has feared for nine years that her father intends to put her aside in favour of her brother. Now she fears she is being put aside in the most literal and horrible way possible.

“The loneliness was like to drive her mad. I deserve a headsman’s axe for what I did, but he will not even give me that. He would sooner shut me away and forget I ever lived.”

This isn’t just because she’s a person who loves being surrounded by her friends and having a good time in general, although that’s probably part of it, but what she really fears is being useless and unloved.

Her terror at being married off to a random old guy with an axeman standing behind her is indicative of this.

“Arianne could only pray that her rescuer would prove younger than the greybeards her father had offered her over the years. “I want a consort with teeth,” she had told him when she refused the last.”

She doesn’t just want a husband she can find at least moderately sexual attractive, although I’m sure she wants that too, but one “with teeth” who could actually be useful with the whole ruling Dorne thing.

But the thing she fears the most is also the reason why she thinks her father has been trying to marry her off in the first place: because he doesn’t love her.

“He does not have it in him to be so cruel. I am his blood and seed, his heir, his only daughter. If need be, she would throw herself beneath the wheels of his chair, admit her fault, and beg him for his pardon. And she would weep. When he saw tears rolling down her face, he would forgive her.”

… she desperately tries to reassure herself.

From her point of view, her father decided to dump her out of nowhere when she was fourteen. And given his actions towards her since, and as we’ve discussed more than once on this thread already, what was she suppose to think?

But justified or not, Arianne has come to the conclusion that her father prefers Quentyn to her because Quentyn has a winkle and she doesn’t, in other words, he never loved her, he hates her for being born.

And what’s worse, he tries to marry her off to someone who anyone in this universe would see as beneath her. So he doesn’t even want her to be happy. So he saddles her with something else that most people would consider beneath her, being Party Planner of Dorne, and then he doesn’t even show up to the feast she throws for him when he returns to Sunspear. So, she concludes, he wants her to be a useless, unhappy, unimportant, little girl. What the hell else is she suppose to think?

Locking her up in a room and condemning her to silence is really just the natural progression of how she has been treated so far and a final confirmation of it.

Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken

Arianne has two competing instincts at the first: to beg for forgiveness and to stand up for herself.

The princess certainly believes she deserves to be punished. She believes she’s made a mistake, and she wishes to be forgiven for it.

“When he saw tears rolling down her face, he would forgive her.

She was less certain whether she would forgive herself.”

“You know me, captain,” Arianne had said, as the leagues rolled past. “You have known me since I was little. You always kept me safe, as you kept my lady mother safe when you came with her from Great Norvos to be her shield in a strange land. I need you now. I need your help. I never meant—”

“What you meant does not matter, little princess,” Areo Hotah said. “Only what you did.” His countenance was stony. “I am sorry. It is for my prince to command, for Hotah to obey.”

What’s interesting in that particular quotation is that she seems as much concerned Hotah will think less of her for her failed plot as she does in asking for his help.

Throughout her imprisonment, she obsesses over what went wrong with her plan. She regrets its consequences, but she never actually tries to dodge responsibility, nor does she ever admit that maybe she was wrong to try anything at all.

Nor does she blame Areo Hotah, or Ser Manfrey, or any of the servants, for doing their jobs. Sure she gets frustrated, she even dumps a flagon of wine on poor Timoth’s head, but she never threatens them or brood over how she’s going to make them pay.

Think about how easily she could have used the strategy of crying female weakness and blaming someone else, the dead Ser Arys for example. Given the kind of person she thinks her father thinks she is, she might have a reasonable expectation of it working, but it doesn’t ever cross her mind.

She dangles marriage, in a vague, non-committal way in front of her potential rescuer but quickly decides she would rather face death than submit to an unwanted husband. She makes it clear to the reader that she would never willingly give up any control over her own situation.

“Whoever shall deliver me from this cell, he shall not be forgotten when I wed.” That should bring the heroes running. Unless Prince Doran had attainted her, she remained the lawful heir to Sunspear; the man who married her would one day rule Dorne by her side.”

[…]

“My father means to leave me here to rot, the princess decided. Or else he is making plans to marry me off to some disgusting old fool and intends to keep me locked away until the bedding.”

[…]

“Grandison had seemed a pleasant fellow, less querulous than Estermont and more robust than Rosby. She would never marry him, however. Not even if Hotah stands behind me with his axe.”

The Lesson of the Water Gardens

Prince Doran has spoken several times of the lesson he learned from his mother at the Water Gardens, that when prince and kings go to war, it’s always the children, the innocent who pay the price.

This lesson has basically ruled Doran’s whole life.

“ Instead I mean to take you with us to the Water Gardens. There are lessons there if you have the wit to see them.”

“Lessons?” said Obara. “All I’ve seen are naked children.”

“Aye,” the prince said. “I told the story to Ser Balon, but not all of it. As the children splashed in the pools, Daenerys watched from amongst the orange trees, and a realization came to her. She could not tell the highborn from the low. Naked, they were only children. All innocent, all vulnerable, all deserving of long life, love, protection. ‘There is your realm,’ she told her son and heir, ‘remember them, in everything you do.’ My own mother said those same words to me when I was old enough to leave the pools. It is an easy thing for a prince to call the spears, but in the end the children pay the price. For their sake, the wise prince will wage no war without good cause, nor any war he cannot hope to win.”

Arianne doesn’t have Doran’s reputation for doing-stuff-phobia, but Doran has always done more than people think he does, and we’ve already discussed at length how much it took for Arianne to take the action that she did, so it might be that, despite their reputations among readers, Doran and Arianne’s way of thinking are quite close to each other.

She shares his abhorrence of the thought of harming children, particularly as a means to an end.

“Ser Gerold drew his sword. It glimmered in the starlight, sharp as lies. “This is how you start a war. Not with a crown of gold, but with a blade of steel.”

I am no murderer of children. “Put that away. Myrcella is under my protection. And Ser Arys will permit no harm to come to his precious princess, you know that.”

“Garin jerked to a halt. Arianne felt as though an axe had caught her in the belly. It was not supposed to end this way. This was not supposed to happen. When she heard Drey say, “There’s the last face I’d hoped to see,” she knew she had to act. “Away!” she cried, vaulting back into the saddle. “Arys, protect the princess—”

When she’s locked up, she’s terrified of what will happen to her, and I don’t think even her detractors could blame her for that, but her chief preoccupation is still her guilt over

Arys, Myrcella, her friends locked up, she believes, on Ghaston Grey, and even the Sand Snakes, imprisoned, she believes, for supporting her.

“Why did you do it? Why throw your life away? I never told you to, I never wanted that, I only wanted . . . I wanted . . . I wanted . . .

That night she cried herself to sleep . . . for the first time, if not the last. Even in her dreams she found no peace. She dreamt of Arys Oakheart caressing her, smiling at her, telling her that he loved her . . . but all the while the quarrels were in him and his wounds were weeping, turning his whites to red. Part of her knew it was a nightmare, even as she dreamt it. Come morning all of this will vanish, the princess told herself, but when morning came, she was still in her cell, Ser Arys was still dead, and Myrcella . . . I never wanted that, never. I meant the girl no harm. All I wanted was for her to be a queen. If we had not been betrayed . . .”

Arianne is not above using people, her rather cynical manipulation of Cedra is proof of that, even if we hadn’t had a whole chapter of her messing with Ser Arys’s head, but this is another quality she shares with Doran, he was scheming for seventeen years to use his daughter to get revenge on his sister’s killers after all. And what I find very interesting is the way they both manipulate people. They never use threats, or force, or even the “I’m the Prince, goddam it!” line, they manipulate people by asking for help, my appealing to people’s compassion, love, or sense of honour. They both even got Arys Oakheart to do what they wanted him to by trembling. They would rather make themselves look weak than belittle or strongarm others.

And of course, if Rhaenys Targaryan will forgive me for encroaching on her territory a little, after more than a month of imprisonment and silence, after being so broken down by her own guilt and sense of uselessness that she’s ready to starve herself to death, what’s the first thing she asks Areo Hotah, the man she could so easily blame for her entire predicament?

“What did you do with Cedra?”

Yeah, what an impulsive, uncaring, self-centred bitch.

Questions for Discussion

Apparently, the Prince of Dorne has the power to attain people. What does this say about Dorne’s autonomy?

We find out later that the Sand Snakes were indeed locked up in the Spear Tower at the same time as Arianne. Why didn’t they answer when she called?

How far would Doran and Arianne take this? How long would Doran have kept her locked up if he wasn’t convinced he needed her to control Myrcella? How far would Arianne take this hunger strike of hers?

What does Arianne’s ignoring the books and cyvasse table in her room mean, if anything?

[SeanF]

That's a very interesting summary, Julia. Dealing with your questions:-

1. I think that all Lords (at any rate, Lords Paramount, and high nobility) have the power of life and death, in their own lands. Martin has referred to the power of the Pit and Gallows. I don't know if most Lords would have the right to execute their own heir, without the consent of the Iron Throne, but the Prince of Dorne clearly does.

I don't know if any Prince or Princess of Dorne has ever executed their heir, but Arianne clearly thinks it's more than a theoretical possibility.

I don't know if Doran ever figured out that Arianne planned to replace him, and imprison Quentyn, and how he would have dealt with her if he did.

2. The walls of the Tower may be too thick for them to hear her. Or perhaps, they were warned on pain of death, not to answer her.

3. Doran's willingness (as we'll see) to share his plans with her suggests that he did plan to forgive her, eventually. His vehement denial that he would ever harm the Sand Snakes suggests that executing them (and Arianne) was not something he ever seriously contemplated. Had he come to the conclusion that none of them could be trusted, under any circumstances, then I imagine he'd have sent them all into exile.

There is however, a hard side to Doran. He confines her companions in a decidedly unpleasant prison. He forces Spotted Sylva to marry an 80 year old. Arianne's thoughts about hot irons and the rack implies that the use of these things is not unknown, in Dorne.

[Stannis's Lawyer]

Questions for Discussion

Apparently, the Prince of Dorne has the power to attain people. What does this say about Dorne’s autonomy?

We find out later that the Sand Snakes were indeed locked up in the Spear Tower at the same time as Arianne. Why didn’t they answer when she called?

How far would Doran and Arianne take this? How long would Doran have kept her locked up if he wasn’t convinced he needed her to control Myrcella? How far would Arianne take this hunger strike of hers?

What does Arianne’s ignoring the books and cyvasse table in her room mean, if anything?

:bowdown:

1. It seems that Dorne is, to this date, more or less de facto independent. Makes sense, since GRRM confirmed that Dornishmen are more "nationalistic", meaning they probably wouldn't like the relationship the Reach or the Stormlands have with King's Landing, and since the Prince of Dorne had no reason to give up much power peacefully.

2. The Spear Tower is 45 meters tall, so they could have been in different floors. Or the walls could be especially thick.

3. :dunno:

[Stannis's Lawyer]

That's a very interesting summary, Julia. Dealing with your questions:-

1. I think that all Lords (at any rate, Lords Paramount, and high nobility) have the power of life and death, in their own lands. Martin has referred to the power of the Pit and Gallows. I don't know if most Lords would have the right to execute their own heir, without the consent of the Iron Throne, but the Prince of Dorne clearly does.

I don't know if any Prince or Princess of Dorne has ever executed their heir, but Arianne clearly thinks it's more than a theoretical possibility.

I don't know if Doran ever figured out that Arianne planned to replace him, and imprison Quentyn, and how he would have dealt with her if he did.

Attainment is a different matter because the only people that we know of who have attained people are kings.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Yay! The Princess in the Tower!! A quick reply:

Questions for Discussion

Apparently, the Prince of Dorne has the power to attain people. What does this say about Dorne’s autonomy?

Isn't it the case that those Lords ruling the separate Kingdoms can arrest people from their kingdom when they feel it necessary? Like, say, Mace Tyrell could, at any time, arrest one of his Reachmen, should there be reason to do so?

We find out later that the Sand Snakes were indeed locked up in the Spear Tower at the same time as Arianne. Why didn’t they answer when she called?

I'm not quite certain, but is it possible that they were kept more below in the tower, where, I assume, the tower would be wider, and it thus would be possible for the Sand Snakes to be on the other side of the tower, or even in a room without windows? Or perhaps they were in rooms with windows with glass that couldn't open?

How far would Doran and Arianne take this? How long would Doran have kept her locked up if he wasn’t convinced he needed her to control Myrcella? How far would Arianne take this hunger strike of hers?

Interesting question. If Arianne hadn't been needed to control Myrcella, perhaps Arianne would only have been freed a few days before Ser Balons arrival at Sunspear.. Not seeing Dorne's heir would have been suspicious, after all.

But I'm guessing that even if she hadn't been needed to control Myrcella, the effect of Doran's punishment was clearly there by the end of it all. For some time there, she lost the fire that had been burning due to her anger, her pride, and her insistence of receiving her inheritance when the day came. Doran seems to have been a bit clueless after Arianne's plot, as he'll ask in the second half of the chapter why she did what she did, not knowing about the letter, or Arianne knowing about Quentyn, or Arianne's feelings on everything. Arianne is a stubborn, pride, strong woman, and perhaps Doran felt he needed to break her spirit before being able to figure out the "why" of it all.

What does Arianne’s ignoring the books and cyvasse table in her room mean, if anything?

A LOT! And as about 1/2 of my rather long analysis will be about that (as the cyvasse theme is present throughout the entire second half), I hereby suggest we wait with this yet another week... :)

Adn the books will tie nicely into that, as well.

[Julia Martell]

A LOT! And as about 1/2 of my rather long analysis will be about that (as the cyvasse theme is present throughout the entire second half), I hereby suggest we wait with this yet another week... :)

Adn the books will tie nicely into that, as well.

You're such a goddamn tease, Rhaenys... :)

[Chebyshov]

I've got a much more in-depth response coming, but I wanted to quickly add something:

We find out later that the Sand Snakes were indeed locked up in the Spear Tower at the same time as Arianne. Why didn’t they answer when she called?

In the Captain of Guards chapter, Doran orders the Snakes to be placed in the cells “atop Spear Tower.” So if they were there, they had to have heard her. Maybe they didn’t have windows, though Arianne stomped on the floor and never heard anything back. And I guarantee you if they had glass panes that didn’t open, Obara would have smashed them. My best guess is that Doran moved them to a different prison (along with Daemon, mayhaps :wideeyed:) in preparation of Arianne’s confinement.

ETA: Wait, just read over that part in The Watcher. If they were moved, it wasn't with Hotah's knowledge. Let's go with the no windows theory. And uh, the Myrish carpets would have absorbed noise. Yup.

[Chebyshov]

Alright, finally gathered my thoughts.

First of all, thank you, Julia Martell for that incredible, and often humorous summary and analysis (and random observations, of course :D).

And now to business:

Analysis

Her Father’s Idea of Torment

Basically, this is Arianne’s worst nightmare.

She has feared for nine years that her father intends to put her aside in favour of her brother. Now she fears she is being put aside in the most literal and horrible way possible.

This isn’t just because she’s a person who loves being surrounded by her friends and having a good time in general, although that’s probably part of it, but what she really fears is being useless and unloved.

Her terror at being married off to a random old guy with an axeman standing behind her is indicative of this.

She doesn’t just want a husband she can find at least moderately sexual attractive, although I’m sure she wants that too, but one “with teeth” who could actually be useful with the whole ruling Dorne thing.

But the thing she fears the most is also the reason why she thinks her father has been trying to marry her off in the first place: because he doesn’t love her.

And I think part of what makes this realization so painful for her is that the guilt and anger she has for herself almost makes her see Doran’s point of view. Arianne messed up royally, cost Arys his life (and for all she knows Myrcella), and sort of proved Doran’s undervaluing of her to be justified. Especially given that she’s assuming someone betrayed her, making her doubt her own competencies even further.

Yes, Arianne attributes a lot of his “hate” for her as pure sexism, but I think deep down she’s always been concerned that it has to do with her person. To realize that maybe she was at fault? Heartbreaking.

… she desperately tries to reassure herself.

From her point of view, her father decided to dump her out of nowhere when she was fourteen. And given his actions towards her since, and as we’ve discussed more than once on this thread already, what was she suppose to think?

But justified or not, Arianne has come to the conclusion that her father prefers Quentyn to her because Quentyn has a winkle and she doesn’t, in other words, he never loved her, he hates her for being born.

And what’s worse, he tries to marry her off to someone who anyone in this universe would see as beneath her. So he doesn’t even want her to be happy. So he saddles her with something else that most people would consider beneath her, being Party Planner of Dorne, and then he doesn’t even show up to the feast she throws for him when he returns to Sunspear. So, she concludes, he wants her to be a useless, unhappy, unimportant, little girl. What the hell else is she suppose to think?

Locking her up in a room and condemning her to silence is really just the natural progression of how she has been treated so far and a final confirmation of it.

I never thought about that, and it’s an excellent point. From her point of view, even if he meant for Quentyn to rule Dorne, why not let her marry Edmure, for instance? It’s not just that he’s planning to set her aside, it’s that he won’t even give her any opportunity to be something. In her mind, the only explanation is that Doran truly hates her. And as you said, this confinement proves it. That she didn’t give way to complete depression earlier in her imprisonment is remarkable.

Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken

Arianne has two competing instincts at the first: to beg for forgiveness and to stand up for herself.

The princess certainly believes she deserves to be punished. She believes she’s made a mistake, and she wishes to be forgiven for it.

It’s interesting, because even though she regrets what she’s done, Arianne still feels that defending her birthright is a justifiable cause. The QM plot was really the only recourse Arianne had. Her regret wasn’t over the motivation for it, but rather the details of its realization. Yet her anger with Doran still holds. This is clear from the following quote:

“She found a cedar chest full of her clothes at the foot of her bed, so she stripped out of the travel-stained garb she had slept in and donned the most revealing garments she could find, wisps of silk that covered everything and hid nothing. Prince Doran might treat her like a child, but she refused to dress like one. She knew such garb would discomfit her father when he came to chastise her for making off with Myrcella. She counted on it. If I must crawl and weep, let him be uncomfortable as well.”

What’s interesting in that particular quotation is that she seems as much concerned Hotah will think less of her for her failed plot as she does in asking for his help.

I think that just shows her complete horror over what happened with Arys and Myrcella. She’s a very caring person, and the fact that her plan led to the death of at least one good person sickens her. And again, this is also about her insecurity of Doran’s now seemingly justifiable disregard of her. Hotah is her trusted “old friend and protector.” If he thinks less of her, what hope does she have?

Throughout her imprisonment, she obsesses over what went wrong with her plan. She regrets its consequences, but she never actually tries to dodge responsibility, nor does she ever admit that maybe she was wrong to try anything at all.

Yes! Exactly! Maybe her plan was slightly naïve when it came to troop numbers or the details of the summoning of bannermen, but was she just supposed to sit back and let Doran supplant her? This was her best option, taking into account the passions, politics, and prejudices of the Dornishmen. She should never shy away from that.

Nor does she blame Areo Hotah, or Ser Manfrey, or any of the servants, for doing their jobs. Sure she gets frustrated, she even dumps a flagon of wine on poor Timoth’s head, but she never threatens them or brood over how she’s going to make them pay.

Now who would do a thing like that…

But yeah, even though she attempts to “pull rank” on them, she is smart enough to understand that their lack of cooperation with her demands is all thanks to Doran. When she thinks that the seneschal would surely not ignore the demands of the rightful heir, it’s not that she’s acting like she’s owed it, but rather that it makes sense given the ranks. Yet even after getting frustrated and bathing Timoth in wine, her thoughts immediately turn to Doran and how he “means to let her rot.”

Think about how easily she could have used the strategy of crying female weakness and blaming someone else, the dead Ser Arys for example. Given the kind of person she thinks her father thinks she is, she might have a reasonable expectation of it working, but it doesn’t ever cross her mind.

And we’ve seen her use that role before too, with Arys. It was her last choice, but still not one that was foreign to her. I think that her self-anger goes to deep for her to shift the blame, especially onto someone whose death she is still mourning. And the fact that it doesn’t cross her mind at all suggests that she doesn’t want Doran to think she was manipulated by anyone else. Yes, she thinks she’ll cry and beg forgiveness, but it will still be “on her” (and it’s even more poignant given that she can’t bring herself to cry when the time comes…obviously we’ll talk about that next week).

She dangles marriage, in a vague, non-committal way in front of her potential rescuer but quickly decides she would rather face death than submit to an unwanted husband. She makes it clear to the reader that she would never willingly give up any control over her own situation.

Yes, or let Doran think she was out of control in her situation. There. That’s what I was awkwardly trying to assert in the previous paragraph. She values her own autonomy, even if her own plans were disastrous. But better to take the blame and ask forgiveness then lie and seem weak for being led by somebody else.

The Lesson of the Water Gardens

Prince Doran has spoken several times of the lesson he learned from his mother at the Water Gardens, that when prince and kings go to war, it’s always the children, the innocent who pay the price.

This lesson has basically ruled Doran’s whole life.

Arianne doesn’t have Doran’s reputation for doing-stuff-phobia, but Doran has always done more than people think he does, and we’ve already discussed at length how much it took for Arianne to take the action that she did, so it might be that, despite their reputations among readers, Doran and Arianne’s way of thinking are quite close to each other.

She shares his abhorrence of the thought of harming children, particularly as a means to an end.

When she’s locked up, she’s terrified of what will happen to her, and I don’t think even her detractors could blame her for that, but her chief preoccupation is still her guilt over Arys, Myrcella, her friends locked up, she believes, on Ghaston Grey, and even the Sand Snakes, imprisoned, she believes, for supporting her.

I love this. Her obvious concern over everyone else, which is featured prominently in this chapter, just shows how similar she and Doran’s core values are. Justice for loved ones who were wronged, action only when necessary (keep in mind Arianne sitting on the letter for 9 years, waiting for an opportunistic moment, and having her hand forced by Quentyn’s trip), and concern for the well-being of all (minus the enemies, of course).

A common criticism of Arianne is that crowning Myrcella was basically killing her, so she does have a disregard for the girl’s safety. Illyrio says as much to Tyrion. And yet, no one calls Tyrion a fool. In fact, he’s one of the smartest political minds, and yet still considers crowning Myrcella. It is clear that both Tyrion and Arianne, when thinking about the plan, do not mean her any harm. It’s more evident by Arianne’s reaction to Myrcella’s injury. I don’t want to go off on too much of a tangent, but why does everyone assume Myrcella would die? Hypothetically if the Dornish crowned her and lost, you’re telling me Cersei would want Myrcella’s head?

Maybe it was naïve of Arianne to assume that the war could be won and no harm would befall Myrcella. Maybe it was naïve of Tyrion too, though I rarely hear anyone call him that. But I actually don’t think any of the assumptions made were unreasonable ones. And this chapter makes it quite clear how empathetic a person Arianne is, like her father.

Arianne is not above using people, her rather cynical manipulation of Cedra is proof of that, even if we hadn’t had a whole chapter of her messing with Ser Arys’s head, but this is another quality she shares with Doran, he was scheming for seventeen years to use his daughter to get revenge on his sister’s killers after all. And what I find very interesting is the way they both manipulate people. They never use threats, or force, or even the “I’m the Prince, goddam it!” line, they manipulate people by asking for help, my appealing to people’s compassion, love, or sense of honour. They both even got Arys Oakheart to do what they wanted him to by trembling. They would rather make themselves look weak than belittle or strongarm others.

As she notes in the tower, Arianne’s only weapon is her “guile.” Well the same is true of the wheelchair-bound Doran. I don’t blame her for trying to use it here, even if poor Cedra may have had some disturbing mental images for a bit.

And of course, if Rhaenys Targaryan will forgive me for encroaching on her territory a little, after more than a month of imprisonment and silence, after being so broken down by her own guilt and sense of uselessness that she’s ready to starve herself to death, what’s the first thing she asks Areo Hotah, the man she could so easily blame for her entire predicament?
Yeah, what an impulsive, uncaring, self-centred bitch.

“Vile, scheming, evil bitch”? ;). Arianne possesses qualities that could make her an absolutely great ruler. This chapter shows us Arianne at her lowest, which also is much more revealing about her true nature. And it's beautiful.

[SeanF]

WRT Dornish autonomy, it's noteable that Dorne is the only one of the Seven Kingdoms that's granted a territorial seat on the Small Council. The other councillors represent the King in his dealings with Westeros, but the Dornish councillor is there to represent Dornish interests.

Possibly they lost that right, after the fall of Aerys, but Tyrion and Tywin restored it.