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Tyrion Lannister is NOT a (willing) rapist.


Xenharmonic

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Greetings.

I have read several threads on these forums claiming that Tyrion Lannister has purposefully raped a woman, and that he has become a despicable person in the later books.

First, they point to the incident involving the crofter's daughter, Tysha. Tyrion was led to believe that she was a whore— and even though he did not relish the task (evidenced by him crying when he reaches this part of the story with Bronn), was forced to have sex with her after multiple other men by his father.

Yes, this was rape. But it wasn't willing rape, and Tyrion had no other real choice as his father was his only means of survival.

Second, they point to the serving girl he has sex with at Illyrio's manse. Illyrio explicitly states that he pays all his female household servants for sexual intercourse (with guests, and possibly himself.)
"Slavery is forbidden in Pentos, by the terms of the treaty the Braavosi imposed on us a hundred years ago. Still, they will not refuse you."

So yes, it was somewhat mean for Tyrion to frighten this woman by threatening her with strangulation. But seeing as he didn't actually choke her, he was merely being a bit of a dick before having sex with a paid worker.

Finally, people point to when he says he wants to rape and kill his sister as a reward for his services.
This I believe, was just dark irony on Tyrion's part.
He says to Cersei that he will rape and or beat Tommen, but this is just a bluff as he does not have the heart for such cruelty. In the same vein, he is just acting when he claims he wants to rape his sister.
Sometimes Tyrion finds it useful to pretend to be the monster that everyone expects him to be, based on his physical appearance.

In conclusion, even if Tyrion is not the epitome of virtue, he is still not a willing rapist.

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"Out of your clothes and onto your back, if it please you. Or not.” She looked at him uncomprehending, until he took the flagon from her hands and lifted her

skirts up over her head. After that she understood what was required of her, though she did not prove the liveliest of partners. Tyrion had been so long without a woman that he spent himself inside her on the third thrust.

..


Her back was crisscrossed by ridges of scar tissue. This girl is as good as dead. I have just fucked a corpse. Even her eyes looked dead. She does not even have the strength to loathe me.


...


She did not understand that either, so he shoved her legs apart, crawled between them, and took her once more. That much she could comprehend, at least.





I see no force.



Secondly, although there is no evidence that he slept with Illyrio's servant, if he had, it'd have been rape. If you have sex with someone who cannot consent, it is rape.


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Well, this is a slippery slope. Very thin ice as well.

The thing with the Tommen incident is that we got into his thoughts and saw that he meant Tommen no harm. That wasn't the case with his sister. Also, just because someone is a paid worker or whore or whatever doesn't make the crime false or less severe. Even sex workers get raped. The same way that a husband can rape his wife...

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I see no force.

Secondly, although there is no evidence that he slept with Illyrio's servant, if he had, it'd have been rape. If you have sex with someone who cannot consent, it is rape.

How could she not consent? If you're arguing that she's forced to do it by Illyrio, she's not.

It's her own choice to be in a house where your master expects you to have sex with guests.

If she truly despised Tyrion she could have just ran away.

Tyrion hardly has the legs to catch and rape her by force, but even if he did, as I said earlier, Tyrion is not that kind of an evil character.

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My point is that Illyrio's servant already consented by being in the service of someone who expects his female servants to have sex.

It is her choice to be in that kind of job.

Is it? Illyrio's words make me think it's de-facto slavery, even if it goes by another name.

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Is it? Illyrio's words make me think it's de-facto slavery, even if it goes by another name.

Some people would argue that "wage slavery" (EG: Most of us must work a job to support ourselves) is de-facto slavery.

My interpretation of Illyrio's words is not that his servants were captured and enslaved by force, but rather came to his household and willingly submitted to the conditions there.

You could argue this was due to their own tragic circumstances, but that is the case for most of the whores of Westeros.

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Some people would argue that "wage slavery" (EG: Most of us must work a job to support ourselves) is de-facto slavery.

My interpretation of Illyrio's words is not that his servants were captured and enslaved by force, but rather came to his household and willingly submitted to the conditions there.

You could argue this was due to their own tragic circumstances, but that is the case for most of the whores of Westeros.

True, but I'm not talking about wage slavery (that's another discussion, interesting though it can be).

To me the fact that Illyrio specifies that an enforced treaty is the reason slavery is illegal, but then goes on to say she wouldn't deny Tyrion makes me think his servants do not have practical alternatives, or in other words are de-facto slaves. But it is a matter of interpretation, I don't think it can be said with certainty either way.

The number one thing that makes me think Illyrio deals in humans as property is that he is the one who produces "little birds" for Varys (ie, children who have their tongues cut out). From there it's a very short leap to assume he uses the same channels to staff his house with de-facto slaves, including bedslaves.

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True, but I'm not talking about wage slavery (that's another discussion, interesting though it can be).

To me the fact that Illyrio specifies that an enforced treaty is the reason slavery is illegal, but then goes on to say she wouldn't deny Tyrion makes me think his servants do not have practical alternatives, or in other words are de-facto slaves. But it is a matter of interpretation, I don't think it can be said with certainty either way.

The number one thing that makes me think Illyrio deals in humans as property is that he is the one who produces "little birds" for Varys (ie, children who have their tongues cut out). From there it's a very short leap to assume he uses the same channels to staff his house with de-facto slaves, including bedslaves.

I think you're right in considering it a possibility, but it's not certain in the reader's mind or Tyrion's.

To be honest, I think some kinds of rape are much more morally reprehensible than others, and cause a lot more or less trauma on the victims depending on the circumstances.

For example, if she really was a slave, even if the sex was non violent, I would agree that this was a bad deed.

But I don't think it would be irredeemable.

In her current environment she accepts that she must bed guests and one more instance of it would not be especially significant. I think much worse in this case would be Illyrio enslaving her in the first place.

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Not a willing rapist? Lets use an example to see what that means........

When I was a kid, my friends and I were hanging out as kids do. My mate robbie was not feeling the best and as we were walking he suddenly stopped and had a mortified look on his face. We couldn't work out what he was doing untill the stench hit us. God that stink could have knocked out a maggot. He had pooped. Thats how he got the nickname squirtbob pooppants.

So to sum up, he was not a willing pooper, but at the end of the day, he still was.

same as tyrion. Just because you add the word willing does not mean he wasnt a rapist. He could have refused his father with tysha..... and the other ones he didnt have to

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He is indeed a rapist.

Tysha doesn't qualify, because he himself was forced and he was just 13 as well, but Pentos and Selhorys definitely count.

Forcing someone to rape someone else. What's the name for that? A rarapist?

A rapist. At least according to §177 StGB. The exact definition may vary in your country.

How could she not consent? If you're arguing that she's forced to do it by Illyrio, she's not.

It's her own choice to be in a house where your master expects you to have sex with guests.
If she truly despised Tyrion she could have just ran away.

Tyrion hardly has the legs to catch and rape her by force, but even if he did, as I said earlier, Tyrion is not that kind of an evil character.

She is a slave. Illyrio just flaunts the law.

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