Tyrion Lannister is NOT a (willing) rapist.

[GallowsKnight]

Tysha was raped (by the guardsmen, by Tywin by proxy). But I don't judge Tyrion as a rapist for that.

I do judge him for his sex with the slave girl in the brothel. Which I (and some Westerosi too probably) consider rape. Even if it was legal by the standard of Volantis (which is a shitty place).

[RoamingRonin]

He admits to himself in ADWD he helped raped Tysha because he thought she was a whore. Oddly enough, I don't think he raped that other girl as most people do.

[ChillyPolly]

Those who say that Tyrion became despicable in Book 5 are wrong. He has always been despicable. We knew he was despicable in Book 1 when a good man gave him the coat off his back in freezing cold weather, and instead of showing gratitude, Tyrion congratulated himself on being the cause of the man's suffering by taking advantage of his generosity and goodness. We knew he was despicable in Book 1 ever since he gave Jon lessons in "How to be a complete dick, full of self-pity, resentment, and entitlement, and make everyone on the Night Watch hate you." Thankfully, Donal Noye undid the damage there.

As for the rape of Tysha, he was indeed a willing participant in the rape. There is no indication whatsoever that anyone put a crossbow to his head. He was angry at Tysha for the crime of not really loving him, which is the same reason he strangles Shae. When a rapists excuse is "My cock made me do it", then that's a pretty good indication that they don't have an excuse. There is not even any indication that he feared a total loss of his father's support, though it is certainly not true that he could not have survived without it. There is some possibility that he hoped to inherit Casterly Rock, since Jaime took his vows.

But why quibble about rape? He is a murderer too. He murders Symon. He murders Shae. He murders Tywin. He arms the mountain men to rape and pillage in the Vale. He gives one of his mountain men a medal for murdering a wineseller's son. He plots the death of Myrcella, because he knows Myrcella's death will cause Cersei to weep bitter tears.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Those who say that Tyrion became despicable in Book 5 are wrong. He has always been despicable. We knew he was despicable in Book 1 when a good man gave him the coat off his back in freezing cold weather, and instead of showing gratitude, Tyrion congratulated himself on being the cause of the man's suffering by taking advantage of his generosity and goodness. We knew he was despicable in Book 1 ever since he gave Jon lessons in "How to be a complete dick, full of self-pity, resentment, and entitlement, and make everyone on the Night Watch hate you." Thankfully, Donal Noye undid the damage there.

Spot on.

As for the rape of Tysha, he was indeed a willing participant in the rape. There is no indication whatsoever that anyone put a crossbow to his head. He was angry at Tysha for the crime of not really loving him, which is the same reason he strangles Shae. When a rapists excuse is "My cock made me do it", then that's a pretty good indication that they don't have an excuse. There is not even any indication that he feared a total loss of his father's support, though it is certainly not true that he could not have survived without it. There is some possibility that he hoped to inherit Casterly Rock, since Jaime took his vows.

I disagree. He was 13. Lack of criminal responsibility, §19 StGB.

But why quibble about rape? He is a murderer too. He murders Symon. He murders Shae. He murders Tywin. He arms the mountain men to rape and pillage in the Vale. He gives one of his mountain men a medal for murdering a wineseller's son. He plots the death of Myrcella, because he knows Myrcella's death will cause Cersei to weep bitter tears.

Spot on again. And a traitor as well.

[BastardlyRock]

Very good, top marks, but he's also one more thing: GRRM's favorite character ;)

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Very good, top marks, but he's also one more thing: GRRM's favorite character ;)

Yes. Your Point?

Many authors or actors like the evil guys better.

[ummester]

It's quite amusing that breadth of fans that Martin attracts (I know the characterizations, plotting and (most of) the writing is quite good) but they really are quite pervy stories and characters when you get down to it.

I just think that people are attracted to controversy and sexual controversy doubly so.

[BastardlyRock]

Yes. Your Point?

Many authors or actors like the evil guys better.

No point really, just idly wondering about the GRRM taking delight in crafting such a wicked character. I wouldn't quite say evil though, grey, at times dark grey, but not evil.

[RoamingRonin]

No point really, just idly wondering about the GRRM taking delight in crafting such a wicked character. I wouldn't quite say evil though, grey, at times dark grey, but not evil.

I think he likes Tyrion within the story he has created. Within all the drama and Dragons, there's GRRMion, snarling and surviving.

[Mithras]

I see no force.

Secondly, although there is no evidence that he slept with Illyrio's servant, if he had, it'd have been rape. If you have sex with someone who cannot consent, it is rape.

This definition does not work in ASOIAF.

A former slave came, to accuse a certain noble of the Zhak. The man had recently taken to wife a freedwoman who had been the noble’s bedwarmer before the city fell. The noble had taken her maidenhood, used her for his pleasure, and gotten her with child. Her new husband wanted the noble gelded for the crime of rape, and he wanted a purse of gold as well, to pay him for raising the noble’s bastard as his own. Dany granted him the gold, but not the gelding. “When he lay with her, your wife was his property, to do with as he would. By law, there was no rape.” Her decision did not please him, she could see, but if she gelded every man who ever forced a bedslave, she would soon rule a city of eunuchs.

[BastardlyRock]

I think he likes Tyrion within the story he has created. Within all the drama and Dragons, there's GRRMion, snarling and surviving.

Definitely a fair assessment. There are plenty of characters I love but I'm not so sure I'd want them as friends in real life...

[Mithras]

Secondly, although there is no evidence that he slept with Illyrio's servant, if he had, it'd have been rape. If you have sex with someone who cannot consent, it is rape.

Then, we can count Dany among the rapers as well.

Irri slept soundly beside her, her lips slightly parted, one dark brown nipple peeping out above the sleeping silks. For a moment Dany was tempted, but it was Drogo she wanted, or perhaps Daario. Not Irri. The maid was sweet and skillful, but all her kisses tasted of duty.

When there is duty, there is no consent and so Dany is a rapist.

[Winter's Knight]

Are you repeating yourself? I don't deny that a large number of men in the books are rapists-you cannot create a misogynistic, rape culture like the one in the books and not have that happen.

[Cthulhu the Drowned God]

The problem, as I see it, is that while both are undoubtedly wrong, there is a significant difference between having sex with someone who has been ordered to and physically forcing yourself upon someone, and that using the same term for both, while technically accurate, doesn't really seem fair, especially given the violent connotations a word like "rape" often carries with it. So while it doesn't seem right to me to say that Tyrion isn't a rapist, it doesn't seem right to say that he is one either, if that makes any sense.

[Prince Lou of House Reed]

So glad to see this thread I'm really tired of hearing tyrion called a rapist he isn't the mountain get over it people. In a dance he's at his lowest possible point riding god damn pigs to stay alive, I can't wait to see him raise back into power.

[dread pirate davos]

Is it just me that dislikes the fact he raped Tysha more than the bed slave. Don't get me wrong what be he did to.the bed slave was wrong and rape if you ask me, but Tysha was his wife. No amount of his dad made him, or he thought she was a who're makes it any more acceptable to me.

[Xenharmonic]

Is it just me that dislikes the fact he raped Tysha more than the bed slave. Don't get me wrong what be he did to.the bed slave was wrong and rape if you ask me, but Tysha was his wife. No amount of his dad made him, or he thought she was a who're makes it any more acceptable to me.

I disagree dread pirate davos. We know what happens to people who defy Lord Tywin, and Tywin didn't even have the kind of affection for Tyrion that he had for his other two children.

[ChillyPolly]

I disagree dread pirate davos. We know what happens to people who defy Lord Tywin, and Tywin didn't even have the kind of affection for Tyrion that he had for his other two children.

That's silly. When Tyrion defied Tywin's order not to have whores in King's Landing, it was Alayaya who got punished, not Tyrion.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

This definition does not work in ASOIAF.

A former slave came, to accuse a certain noble of the Zhak. The man had recently taken to wife a freedwoman who had been the noble’s bedwarmer before the city fell. The noble had taken her maidenhood, used her for his pleasure, and gotten her with child. Her new husband wanted the noble gelded for the crime of rape, and he wanted a purse of gold as well, to pay him for raising the noble’s bastard as his own. Dany granted him the gold, but not the gelding. “When he lay with her, your wife was his property, to do with as he would. By law, there was no rape.” Her decision did not please him, she could see, but if she gelded every man who ever forced a bedslave, she would soon rule a city of eunuchs.

And here I thought we were talking about our modern moral standards.

By the way, it would still be rape in Westeros.

Then, we can count Dany among the rapers as well.

Irri slept soundly beside her, her lips slightly parted, one dark brown nipple peeping out above the sleeping silks. For a moment Dany was tempted, but it was Drogo she wanted, or perhaps Daario. Not Irri. The maid was sweet and skillful, but all her kisses tasted of duty.

When there is duty, there is no consent and so Dany is a rapist.

Yes indeed, though in that case it would be sexual abuse, a few steps down the ladder.

[Chebyshov]

For Tysha, Tyrion was lied to and believed her to be a prostitute, who [in Westeros] is typically in a position to give consent. With the sex slave in Essos, Tyrion was completely conscious of his decision and understands fully well what the practice of slavery is and that she cannot give consent. Further, even after the first time when he thinks "This was a mistake. What a wretched creature I’ve become," proceeds to rape her again. So yes. He was a "willing" rapist.

I mean, the guy clearly has problematic views on women throughout the series, so it's fascinating how much discussion this one point gets. Especially given that there's just no excusing it.