Tyrion Lannister is NOT a (willing) rapist.

[Xenharmonic]

That's silly. When Tyrion defied Tywin's order not to have whores in King's Landing, it was Alayaya who got punished, not Tyrion.

Alayaya was punished by Cersei, not Tywin.

Tywin threatens to hang the next whore Tyrion is with, so there's no doubt that Tywin is ruthless and has a limited sense of sentiment towards Tyrion.

Even if defying Tywin in this instance didn't bring personal harm or misfortune to Tyrion, Tyrion would still have been heartbroken if his defiance had say, caused Tysha harm.

[Chebyshov]

Yes indeed, though in that case it would be sexual abuse, a few steps down the ladder.

I don't think it's the same for Dany and Irri. When they have their first sexual encounter, it is at Irri's initiation, and afterwards Dany specifically tells her that she has a choice in the matter and is no slave:

“No. Irri, you do not need to do that. What happened that night, when you woke . . . you’re no bed slave, I freed you, remember? You..."

“I am handmaid to the Mother of Dragons,” the girl said. “It is great honor to please my khaleesi.”

You can make the argument that given Dany's inherent position of power their sexual encounters are coerced, but given that Dany explicitly talked to her about her rights, it's a tougher argument to win.

[Littlefingers In The Air]

You'll never find whitewashing quite like you'll finds in General ASoIaF.

[Xenharmonic]

For Tysha, Tyrion was lied to and believed her to be a prostitute, who [in Westeros] is typically in a position to give consent. With the sex slave in Essos, Tyrion was completely conscious of his decision and understands fully well what the practice of slavery is and that she cannot give consent. Further, even after the first time when he thinks "This was a mistake. What a wretched creature I’ve become," proceeds to rape her again. So yes. He was a "willing" rapist.

I mean, the guy clearly has problematic views on women throughout the series, so it's fascinating how much discussion this one point gets. Especially given that there's just no excusing it.

Don't you think that slave girl being "raped" by countless other men would somewhat dilute the trauma she'd experience?

And as to "taking her again" ie: the second time. I don't think that's likely to cause the victim much extra trauma, unless done violently— and we know Tyrion does not physically abuse people like that (unless he has good reason to hate them.)

[Chebyshov]

Don't you think that slave girl being "raped" by countless other men would somewhat dilute the trauma she'd experience?

And as to "taking her again" ie: the second time. I don't think that's likely to cause the victim much extra trauma, unless done violently— and we know Tyrion does not physically abuse people like that (unless he has good reason to hate them.)

Wait, I'm sorry, you're arguing that rape is okay if the victim is used to abuse?

[Mikkel]

Don't you think that slave girl being "raped" by countless other men would somewhat dilute the trauma she'd experience?

And as to "taking her again" ie: the second time. I don't think that's likely to cause the victim much extra trauma, unless done violently— and we know Tyrion does not physically abuse people like that (unless he has good reason to hate them.)

I don't even know where to begin with this. Is this really an argument you want to pursue? She was raped by a number of other men, so it's kinda okay for Tyrion to do it, too? In case that isn't your argument (which I hope), you should think about how you phrase things, because that's what it looks like to me.

[Xenharmonic]

Wait, I'm sorry, you're arguing that rape is okay if the victim is used to abuse?

No, I already said earlier in the thread that it was a bad deed. Just not an irredeemable one.

The truly evil person in the case of the slave girl was the one who puts and keeps her in that position.

Tyrion was just a drop in the ocean.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

I don't think it's the same for Dany and Irri. When they have their first sexual encounter, it is at Irri's initiation, and afterwards Dany specifically tells her that she has a choice in the matter and is no slave:

“No. Irri, you do not need to do that. What happened that night, when you woke . . . you’re no bed slave, I freed you, remember? You..."

“I am handmaid to the Mother of Dragons,” the girl said. “It is great honor to please my khaleesi.”

You can make the argument that given Dany's inherent position of power their sexual encounters are coerced, but given that Dany explicitly talked to her about her rights, it's a tougher argument to win.

Yes, you can argue about it either. Dany is not the topic though, let's leave it at that.

You'll never find whitewashing quite like you'll finds in General ASoIaF.

Spot on.

Don't you think that slave girl being "raped" by countless other men would somewhat dilute the trauma she'd experience?

And as to "taking her again" ie: the second time. I don't think that's likely to cause the victim much extra trauma, unless done violently— and we know Tyrion does not physically abuse people like that (unless he has good reason to hate them.)

So rapers who do rape their victims in a group should get away with a slap on the wrist at best?

You're at the edge of a very slippery and very nasty slope.

[Xenharmonic]

Wait, I'm sorry, you're arguing that rape is okay if the victim is used to abuse?

No, I already said earlier in the thread that it was a bad deed. Just not an irredeemable one.

The truly evil person in the case of the slave girl was the one who puts and keeps her in that position.

Tyrion was just a drop in the ocean. Again, I think what Tyrion did was wrong and am not condoning it.

[lidsa]

This thread reminds me of the beginning of A Boy and His Dog, when Vic is sad that the girl has been killed and says "They didn't have to do that, we could still have used her a little longer".

[aryagonnakill#2]

It is stated directly in the book that Ilyrio deals in slaves. This is also the same person who prepares Varys little birds for him.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

No, I already said earlier in the thread that it was a bad deed. Just not an irredeemable one.

The truly evil person in the case of the slave girl was the one who puts and keeps her in that position.

Tyrion was just a drop in the ocean. Again, I think what Tyrion did was wrong and am not condoning it.

Just accept that Tyrion is indeed a rapist and a lousy human being and be done with it.

[BastardlyRock]

This thread reminds me of the beginning of A Boy and His Dog, when Vic is sad that the girl has been killed and says "They didn't have to do that, we could still have used her a little longer".

This reminds me of a thread dangerously close to being locked :leaving:

[Xenharmonic]

Yes, you can argue about it either. Dany is not the topic though, let's leave it at that.

Spot on.

So rapers who do rape their victims in a group should get away with a slap on the wrist at best?

You're at the edge of a very slippery and very nasty slope.

Sorry for bugged double post earlier.

The slippery slope analogy can sometimes be incredibly useful, but at times it's used to try and justify logical fallacies.

Are you seriously claiming that the orchestrator of an event has exactly the same blame as those who obey him or simply take advantage of the things he set in motion?

Reducing that to the absurd, Tyrion is a terrible person because he does not spend every waking hour trying to rescue girls like the one he raped.

In a logical consideration of ethics, the real tangible effects of a person's actions are what is measured.

Not the arbitrary kind of absolute code that most religions seem to favour.

For example, do you honestly believe Lord Tywin's sworn soldiers are as guilty as Tywin himself for the atrocious decisions he made?

Again, the people who enslaved these poor girls are the ones who commit the most grievous "sin", not the countless patrons who make use of them.

Yes, being a patron at that kind of establishment is bad. But not nearly as bad as owning the place.

Just like stealing a single apple is bad, but the man who chains up the shopkeeper's guards to allow the crowds to take the apples deserves far worse punishment.

It is getting late in Australia, so thank you all for your contributions tonight and I will be back tomorrow :).

[Chebyshov]

No, I already said earlier in the thread that it was a bad deed. Just not an irredeemable one.

The truly evil person in the case of the slave girl was the one who puts and keeps her in that position.

Tyrion was just a drop in the ocean. Again, I think what Tyrion did was wrong and am not condoning it.

No, you're just acting as a rape apologist, on some bizarre argument about her own psyche. First of all, whatever abuses she's suffered, it's not for you to make the determination that "well one more won't hurt," or any assumptions about her mental state. Her deadened demeanor as a result of her years of abuse is likely her personal armor, but that's not to say her continual dehumanization and invasion of her body is ever, ever okay. She cries out in distress during the scene. It's clear she is unhappy, yet has no recourse.

Secondly, you're completely ignoring Tyrion's mental state: he knows this is wrong, and yet continues. He is completely willing to violate her, even having the realization that her "dead eyes" indicate that she must have suffered greatly over her life. So is Tyrion the slaver? No. But this is not a redeemable act. The complete disregard for her humanity and agency is downright disturbing, and frankly, if he had rationalized it to himself the way you are, that'd make me think even less of him.

[Attitude]

A rapist. At least according to §177 StGB. The exact definition may vary in your country.

You looked that up very fast. It scares me.

[ChillyPolly]

The truly evil person in the case of the slave girl was the one who puts and keeps her in that position.

And that truly evil person is both the Pimp who abuses her, and the John who pays the Pimp for doing what he does, and encourages him to keep on doing it.

Tyrion was just a drop in the ocean.

Yes. The world is full of Pimps and Johns. Rapists too. That does not make it right.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Sorry for bugged double post earlier.

The slippery slope analogy can sometimes be incredibly useful, but at times it's used to try and justify logical fallacies.

Are you seriously claiming that the orchestrator of an event has exactly the same blame as those who obey him or simply take advantage of the things he set in motion?

Reducing that to the absurd, Tyrion is a terrible person because he does not spend every waking hour trying to rescue girls like the one he raped.

In a logical consideration of ethics, the real tangible effects of a person's actions are what is measured.

Not the arbitrary kind of absolute code that most religions seem to favour.

For example, do you honestly believe Lord Tywin's sworn soldiers are as guilty as Tywin himself for the atrocious decisions he made?

Again, the people who enslaved these poor girls are the ones who commit the most grievous "sin", not the countless patrons who make use of them.

Yes, being a patron at that kind of establishment is bad. But not nearly as bad as owning the place.

Just like stealing a single apple is bad, but the man who chains up the shopkeeper's guards to allow the crowds to take the apples deserves far worse punishment.

It is getting late in Australia, so thank you all for your contributions tonight and I will be back tomorrow :).

That's basically the difference between 20 and 21 years in prison. Of course in Westeros, I'd hang them from the same limb.

You looked that up very fast. It scares me.

Not the first time that particular discussion showed up. I just had to google the number.

[ChillyPolly]

Alayaya was punished by Cersei, not Tywin.

Cersei arrested Alayaya. Tywin release her ... but first had her whipped.

Tywin threatens to hang the next whore Tyrion is with, so there's no doubt that Tywin is ruthless and has a limited sense of sentiment towards Tyrion.

This threat was directed at the whore, not Tyrion.

Tyrion's response to this was to continue having sex with Shae, indifferent to the fact that this threatened her life; except that he was induced to murder Symon to make the threat less immediate.

And please lets not forget who it is that actually ends up killing Shae. It was not Tywin.

[Lord Freypie]

Moderators are really evil not to close this kind of threads as soon they see them, knowing that after some argumentation they will extremely probably result in some naive new members being banned for their badly worded Tyrion defense that will be reported as "rape apology".