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Sansa and Sandor's story arc parallel.


Knightmare_13

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Hello all this little post will be a little speculation about the story arcs of sansa stark and sandor clegane.



Note: this is assuming you have read all the books up to the time of this post and assuming that you are familiar with the "Gravedigger" theory.



I looked at the arcs and noticed some similarities between the two, and suspect that the two arcs may be driving towards a similar conclusion.



First, I would like to discuss Sansa. When we first meet Sansa in book one, she is a starry eyed romantic. She is infatuated with the songs she heard growing up. The songs that tell of handsome princes, gallent knights, and brave fools. And as we all know, she becomes more and more disillusioned as the books progress. Her prince turns out to be a jerk, his knights of the kings guard beat her, and her daring fool sold her off for gold. I think that this idealism and disillusionment is something we can all agree on.



Now let us discuss Sandor's story. Sandor, in my opinion, seems to have been much like Sansa at some point. Not at the onset of the books but sometime before. This is largely from the story he tells Sansa about how his face became so disfigured.




A wooden knight, all painted up, every joint pegged separate and fixed with strings, so you could make him fight. Gregor is five years older than me, the toy was nothing to him, he was already a squire, near six foot tall and muscled like an ox. So I took his knight, but there was no joy to it, I tell you. I was scared all the while, and true enough, he found me. There was a brazier in the room. Gregor never said a word, just picked me up under his arm and shoved the side of my face down in the burning coals and held me there while I screamed and screamed.




“No,” he growled at her, “no, little bird, he was no true knight.”



There are two things I would like to point out in this scene. First, we see that the toy Sandor was playing with was a knight. This may be a coincidence, but I think that, as a boy, he likely looked up to and aspired to be a knight.



Then Sansa's form of comfort. She claims that Gregor was not a "true knight." Sandor laughs at first, but then he repeats the statement in agreement. He does later argue that there are no true knights, but here he simply says that Gregor was not one. Maybe this is in part because some small fragment believes in "true knights." It would be reasonable. He spits on knights and calls them out for their hypocrisy time and again. But why is he so angry about it? While it certainly is possible that he just lumps all knights in with his brother, and it is fair to assume that he has seem some corruption in the past. I think that his rage more likely comes from a place of betrayal. I speculate that he once believed in the ideals of the knight and disdains the men around him who call themselves knights because they tarnish that ideal.



He certainly still clings to a knightly tenant or two. He defends Sir Loras Tyrell from his brother at the tourney of the hand of the king. Note that while he hates his brother, he fights only defensively against him. He isn't fighting to try and kill his brother here, even though his brother is looking at attempted murder. He seems to be fighting purely to protect Loras. He also regularly defends Sansa and even Arya Stark to a degree even when there doesn't seem to be any real profit in it.



With all of this in mind I think that part of him still may cling to the ideals that he once held. I think that much like Sansa he was an idealist who became disillusion after various events in his life. Thus he is the angry man that we meet at the start of the books.



Notice how he is constantly giving Sansa some pretty harsh advice, and he is often the main entety trying to destroy her romantic hopes. However, is he really trying to convince Sansa fairytales aren't real or is he simply fighting to keep himself convinced of that fact while staring down at a fair and kind damsel in distress.



So what do I think this holds for the future? Well, I am of the opinion that the story will take a circular pattern. I think that Sansa will find her way into a song somehow. Maybe it will be a sad one, but I think that Sansa's completed arc will go like this:



Loves the songs and wants to be in something like she hears about -> disillusionment and rejection of the songs and stories as hogwash -> becomes part of a song without realizing perhaps discovering that the songs only seem nice because you know how it ends or because it is simply a retelling of an event in an overly cheerful light



Some suggest that the song "The Bear and the Maiden Fair" is actually about her and the hound. I doubt this and suspect that Daenerys and Jorah are far more likely candidates. All the same I suspect that Sansa will get her wish and be immortalized in song. Whether this song will be a comedy or a tragedy...



Similarly, I think Sandor's story will come full circle as well. Maybe you might argue it already has. I for one believe in the "Gravedigger" theory and that Sandor will come back some how. Perhaps, he will come face to face with his fear of fire. I would love to see him kill or be killed by a dragon, but that's just a fantasy of mine. However, I am of the opinion that Sandor will somehow achieve becoming an embodiment of the "true knight." This, I suspect, will be the thing that actually kills him, but maybe not.



Overall, I am not arguing that Sandor and Sansa's stories are going to have conclusions dependent on each other, although the "unkiss" is a weird thing that is kind of oddly hanging in the air. I am simply trying to predict the story pattern that may unfold.



But who knows, maybe I am wrong and Sandor is just a big ole dead jerk, or maybe George R.R. Martin is putting the final touches on a bard's performance of "The Hound and the Little Bird."



What do you think? Will Sansa get her song? Will Sandor become a "true knight?"


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Nice post! What's interesting to me is that they're coming at the same idealized courtly vision, but from different idealized gender perspectives. Sandor wanted to be a knight, Sansa wanted to see and be around and mayhaps marry a knight. In a happier world, they could've been perfect for each other; as it stands, this connection at least allows them to partially heal one another.



I very much like the idea of Sansa ending up in a song, a nice meta twist. Hopefully, it'll be better than the one about Tyrion and Shae.


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Welcome to the forum.


Good post. I agree that they're both stories of disillusionment. I've far more sympathy for Sandor than for Sansa, but they're both sad characters. It'd be nice if their stories ended happily, or even together, but we know to expect differently. As for songs, there'll be a lot of songs to come from this era of Westeros history and "The Hound and The Little Bird" could well be one.


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Welcome to the forum.

It'd be nice if their stories ended happily, or even together, but we know to expect differently.

Thanks for the hospitality.

To be honest I don't perceive the asoiaf series to be as bleak as most. I am of the opinion that we are only at a point before the story's conclusion. I am of the opinion that while george rr martin has numerous more characters to kill he will likely finish the story in a more cheerful fashion than many may suspect. I have heard it said that he is a fan of "bittersweet," and I also am aware that he is a massive tolkien fan. So i leave you with this quote from sam of lord of the rings fame:

It's like in the great stories, Mr. Frodo. The ones that really mattered. Full of darkness and danger they were. And sometimes you didn't want to know the end. Because how could the end be happy? How could the world go back to the way it was when so much bad had happened? But in the end, it's only a passing thing, this shadow. Even darkness must pass. A new day will come. And when the sun shines, it will shine out the clearer.

I'm not saying that everyone will get their happily ever after, but I also don't think the series is an exercise in nihilism either.

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Welcome to the forums, and I agree that GRRM isn't as nihilistic as the early part of his stories are, with bittersweet being what he has said the ending is.



As for Sansa and Sandor, I agree they are extremely important in each others story arcs, and classic romance with beauty and the beast is the theme that stands out the most. With GRRM writing the story and his subversion of tropes, no telling how it will end up by the time he finishes the books.


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Welcome to the forums

...

With GRRM writing the story and his subversion of tropes, no telling how it will end up by the time he finishes the books.

Thanks for welcoming me.

I actually do not think that George rr Martin is actively subverting tropes. Well ok, I think he is but not to such an extreme as some might suggest. Yes, I think he enjoys his little switches where, for example, the kings guard are some pretty bad guys and they wear all white where as the night's watch are pretty good guys and they are clad in black. However, I suspect that this is because, at his core, Martin is a bit of a contrarian. That is why I suspect that he is unlikely to mock the beauty and the beast trope. The story of beauty and the beast is in and of itself a bit of a contrarian's fairy tale. The beautiful maiden falls for a frightful beast and not a handsome prince. This feels very much Martin's style, and, while possible, I doubt he would undermine that little tale. After all we saw that he didn't really betray the Romeo and Juliet bit that John and Ygritte had. I would be pretty surprised if Martin tossed in a "just kidding. Sandor was just a big jerk the whole time, and Sansa was just giving him too much credit."

Again, not saying everyone will live happily ever after. I'm definitely not saying that sandor or sansa will. I'm saying that I would be shocked if someone didn't find their rainbow in all of this.

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Thanks for welcoming me.

I actually do not think that George rr Martin is actively subverting tropes. Well ok, I think he is but not to such an extreme as some might suggest. Yes, I think he enjoys his little switches where, for example, the kings guard are some pretty bad guys and they wear all white where as the night's watch are pretty good guys and they are clad in black. However, I suspect that this is because, at his core, Martin is a bit of a contrarian. That is why I suspect that he is unlikely to mock the beauty and the beast trope. The story of beauty and the beast is in and of itself a bit of a contrarian's fairy tale. The beautiful maiden falls for a frightful beast and not a handsome prince. This feels very much Martin's style, and, while possible, I doubt he would undermine that little tale. After all we saw that he didn't really betray the Romeo and Juliet bit that John and Ygritte had. I would be pretty surprised if Martin tossed in a "just kidding. Sandor was just a big jerk the whole time, and Sansa was just giving him too much credit."

Again, not saying everyone will live happily ever after. I'm definitely not saying that sandor or sansa will. I'm saying that I would be shocked if someone didn't find their rainbow in all of this.

I think there will be some happy endings. GRRM isn't entirely sadistic, and there has been so much suffering that I just won't believe that nobody gets happiness at the end. Your noting that the good guys wear black and the bad guys white is something that never crossed my mind, so thanks for that. I also agree that he won't ruin the Beauty and the Beast trope. It's a tale he lived with for years. He likes to play with stereotypes but I don't think he'd tear that one to shreds. It stands alone as a burst stereotype already anyway. It's also why I think there's feasibility to Brienne and Jaime ending up together.

I'm looking forward to interesting posts from you!

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Hello all this little post will be a little speculation about the story arcs of sansa stark and sandor clegane.

Note: this is assuming you have read all the books up to the time of this post and assuming that you are familiar with the "Gravedigger" theory.

I looked at the arcs and noticed some similarities between the two, and suspect that the two arcs may be driving towards a similar conclusion.

First, I would like to discuss Sansa. When we first meet Sansa in book one, she is a starry eyed romantic. She is infatuated with the songs she heard growing up. The songs that tell of handsome princes, gallent knights, and brave fools. And as we all know, she becomes more and more disillusioned as the books progress. Her prince turns out to be a jerk, his knights of the kings guard beat her, and her daring fool sold her off for gold. I think that this idealism and disillusionment is something we can all agree on.

Now let us discuss Sandor's story. Sandor, in my opinion, seems to have been much like Sansa at some point. Not at the onset of the books but sometime before. This is largely from the story he tells Sansa about how his face became so disfigured.

There are two things I would like to point out in this scene. First, we see that the toy Sandor was playing with was a knight. This may be a coincidence, but I think that, as a boy, he likely looked up to and aspired to be a knight.

Then Sansa's form of comfort. She claims that Gregor was not a "true knight." Sandor laughs at first, but then he repeats the statement in agreement. He does later argue that there are no true knights, but here he simply says that Gregor was not one. Maybe this is in part because some small fragment believes in "true knights." It would be reasonable. He spits on knights and calls them out for their hypocrisy time and again. But why is he so angry about it? While it certainly is possible that he just lumps all knights in with his brother, and it is fair to assume that he has seem some corruption in the past. I think that his rage more likely comes from a place of betrayal. I speculate that he once believed in the ideals of the knight and disdains the men around him who call themselves knights because they tarnish that ideal.

He certainly still clings to a knightly tenant or two. He defends Sir Loras Tyrell from his brother at the tourney of the hand of the king. Note that while he hates his brother, he fights only defensively against him. He isn't fighting to try and kill his brother here, even though his brother is looking at attempted murder. He seems to be fighting purely to protect Loras. He also regularly defends Sansa and even Arya Stark to a degree even when there doesn't seem to be any real profit in it.

With all of this in mind I think that part of him still may cling to the ideals that he once held. I think that much like Sansa he was an idealist who became disillusion after various events in his life. Thus he is the angry man that we meet at the start of the books.

Notice how he is constantly giving Sansa some pretty harsh advice, and he is often the main entety trying to destroy her romantic hopes. However, is he really trying to convince Sansa fairytales aren't real or is he simply fighting to keep himself convinced of that fact while staring down at a fair and kind damsel in distress.

So what do I think this holds for the future? Well, I am of the opinion that the story will take a circular pattern. I think that Sansa will find her way into a song somehow. Maybe it will be a sad one, but I think that Sansa's completed arc will go like this:

Loves the songs and wants to be in something like she hears about -> disillusionment and rejection of the songs and stories as hogwash -> becomes part of a song without realizing perhaps discovering that the songs only seem nice because you know how it ends or because it is simply a retelling of an event in an overly cheerful light

Some suggest that the song "The Bear and the Maiden Fair" is actually about her and the hound. I doubt this and suspect that Daenerys and Jorah are far more likely candidates. All the same I suspect that Sansa will get her wish and be immortalized in song. Whether this song will be a comedy or a tragedy...

Similarly, I think Sandor's story will come full circle as well. Maybe you might argue it already has. I for one believe in the "Gravedigger" theory and that Sandor will come back some how. Perhaps, he will come face to face with his fear of fire. I would love to see him kill or be killed by a dragon, but that's just a fantasy of mine. However, I am of the opinion that Sandor will somehow achieve becoming an embodiment of the "true knight." This, I suspect, will be the thing that actually kills him, but maybe not.

Overall, I am not arguing that Sandor and Sansa's stories are going to have conclusions dependent on each other, although the "unkiss" is a weird thing that is kind of oddly hanging in the air. I am simply trying to predict the story pattern that may unfold.

But who knows, maybe I am wrong and Sandor is just a big ole dead jerk, or maybe George R.R. Martin is putting the final touches on a bard's performance of "The Hound and the Little Bird."

What do you think? Will Sansa get her song? Will Sandor become a "true knight?"

Welcome to the forum. Excellent first thread/first posts.

I agree with pretty much all you've said. I don't think GRRM is a nihilist, either, and he himself was apparently upset when it was suggested he was. The themes of idealism, dreams and romanticism, or chivalry and the true knights ideal, of disappointment, disillusionment and crushed dreams, but of persevering and hoping and finding beauty, goodness and love where you don't expect, are prominent in the series.

GRRM is also clearly a big fan of the Beauty and the Beast story. However, the story itself has very different aspects and versions, therefore it's not easy to say that GRRM is simply subverting or not subverting it. From the bourgeois 18th century morality version that was primarily meant to be an allegorical tale about young women being married off to older, unknown and possibly unattractive husbands and learning to get over the fear of them and sex/marriage and accept him; to the version more palatable to our modern morality and sense of romance, where it's a love story about learning to see beneath the surface and/or about "healing" through the "power of love", to contemporary feminist interpretations where it's either about a man learning to not be "beastly" in the sense of how he treats women in order to become a suitable partner, or it can be subverted, feminist sex positive story about a young woman brought up in the traditional way finding and unleashing her inner beast and becoming more assertive/sexually aggressive (as in one of Angela Carter's stories, where, as in her subversive version of Red Riding Hood, the beast does not transform into a prince, but the beauty transforms into a beast). There's a lot of ways to interpret that story. Tyrion/Sansa can be seen as the subverted version of the "young girl married against her will to an ugly older man who keeps asking her to accept him" aspect of the story, in which she does not accept him. Brienne/Jaime and Sandor/Sansa seem to be more straightforward and romantic versions, with Brienne/Jaime being subverted in the sense that a woman, Brienne, is the "beast" in the sense of being physically ugly while Jaime is physically beautiful, but at the same time, Brienne is the "beauty" in the sense of moral purity, and just as he gradually comes to see her beauty behind the ugly physical exterior, she gradually comes to see the inner beauty of the disillusioned idealist that's beneath the "ugly" exterior of Jaime's bad reputation and cynical and apparently immoral behavior.

We are still to see how exactly Sandor's and Sansa's storyline will unfold. The first act of their story is over; I suspect that the next time they meet, they will be very different people, to each other's surprise, and their dynamic will be different from before. GRRM has said that "the Hound" is dead and that "Sansa" may be dead, too, she's Alayne now. The new Sandor may be gentler and not angry and violent. The new Sansa aka Alayne will be more confident, stronger, but probably more cynical as well, and maybe this time Sandor will remind her of who she really is and give her hope that the world is not all about cynical opportunism and heartless manipulation, which Littlefinger is trying to "teach" her. His "Life is not a song" stands in contrast to Sandor's "Sing me a song".

Just as I don't believe that Sandor will turn out to have been "just a jerk" (which his storyline so far does not support), I don't believe, as some seem to, that Sansa will turn into some sort of Littlefinger 2.0, a heartless, ambitious and ruthless manipulator who doesn't care about anything but power and/or revenge. This post by Steve Atwell makes a good point that needs to be addressed whenever Sansa's storyline, or ASOAIF in general, comes up in discussion, and people claim that it's all about everyone learning to "play the game of thrones" by being absolutely ruthless and shed all those pesky morals, dreams or emotions such as love and compassion:

If Sansa had reacted to the death of her father and her current imprisonment by going the Full Littlefinger, and becoming nothing more than a cynical, emotionless manipulator, most of the drama would fall out of her story. But a Sansa who still yearns for something good to happen, some heroism left in the world – once again, mirroring the reader’s reaction to a fictional world in which the good guys die and the bad guys triumph – that’s a Sansa who still has something to strive for and something to lose.

I would not want to read a story about nothing but cynical, emotionless manipulators. It would just not be relatable or interesting. And it would not be any more exciting than reading about 100% perfect shiny heroes. It would lack all the drama and conflict, it would lack someone to root for. I don't understand why people want Sansa to become nothing but a cynical, emotionless manipulator, to completely lose all that makes her who she is. (I suspect it's because they don't like her in the first place.) It would not be convincing, since people don't change 100%, and it would also be a waste of a good character. We already have Littlefinger. There's a reason why GRRM did not make him the protagonist.

Regarding the popular songs of Westeros, I don't think any of them will apply to any of the characters/couples too literally. But they can sort of apply to more than one person/couple. And out of all of them, "Florian and Jonquil" seems to be referenced most often in Sansa's story, which is why I think it's most likely to parallel her story in some ways out of the existing songs; I wonder when GRRM will reveal more about what actually happened to Florian and Jonquil.

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Welcome to the forum. Excellent first thread/first posts.

GRRM is also clearly a big fan of the Beauty and the Beast story. However, the story itself has very different aspects and versions, therefore it's not easy to say that GRRM is simply subverting or not subverting it. From the bourgeois 18th century morality version that was primarily meant to be an allegorical tale about young women being married off to older, unknown and possibly unattractive husbands and learning to get over the fear of them and sex/marriage and accept him; to the version more palatable to our modern morality and sense of romance, where it's a love story about learning to see beneath the surface and/or about "healing" through the "power of love", to contemporary feminist interpretations where it's either about a man learning to not be "beastly" in the sense of how he treats women in order to become a suitable partner, or it can be subverted, feminist sex positive story about a young woman brought up in the traditional way finding and unleashing her inner beast and becoming more assertive/sexually aggressive (as in one of Angela Carter's stories, where, as in her subversive version of Red Riding Hood, the beast does not transform into a prince, but the beauty transforms into a beast). There's a lot of ways to interpret that story. Tyrion/Sansa can be seen as the subverted version of the "young girl married against her will to an ugly older man who keeps asking her to accept him" aspect of the story, in which she does not accept him. Brienne/Jaime and Sandor/Sansa seem to be more straightforward and romantic versions, with Brienne/Jaime being subverted in the sense that a woman, Brienne, is the "beast" in the sense of being physically ugly while Jaime is physically beautiful, but at the same time, Brienne is the "beauty" in the sense of moral purity, and just as he gradually comes to see her beauty behind the ugly physical exterior, she gradually comes to see the inner beauty of the disillusioned idealist that's beneath the "ugly" exterior of Jaime's bad reputation and cynical and apparently immoral behavior.

Thank you for the kind words.

When speaking of the Beauty and the Beast tale(s) in ASOIAF, I think that if Martin intends to replicate one of the stories he will do so in more of a literal over figurative way. Meaning, that he will likely replicate similar narrative beats over metaphorical ones. George rr Martin as, I have said before, is highly influenced by Tolkien, and Tolkien himself was very much against allegory. He valued applicability over allegory. I think it is fair to assume that Martin would take a similar stance on the issue. Thus when it comes to guessing at which version of the classic tale he would mimic I think that it may be best to avoid using allegory as a method to tie the two together. As for me, I choose to focus more on structure and less on any imposed meaning (note my signature). That isn't to say that he will not stumble onto an interpretation that may fit into one of the allegories, but I would doubt that this would be intentional. Of course maybe I'm wrong and that is indeed his plan. I just would be careful not to fly to close to the sun.

Regarding the popular songs of Westeros, I don't think any of them will apply to any of the characters/couples too literally. But they can sort of apply to more than one person/couple. And out of all of them, "Florian and Jonquil" seems to be referenced most often in Sansa's story, which is why I think it's most likely to parallel her story in some ways out of the existing songs; I wonder when GRRM will reveal more about what actually happened to Florian and Jonquil.

Well this is an interesting topic. I'm not sure how popular the theory is, or if it is just me, but I am rather convinced that The Bear and the Maiden fair is about Daenerys and Jorah. Daenerys being the "maid with honey in her hair": she is blonde. Jorah is the bear being that he is of house Mormont, their sigil is a bear, and that Daenerys often refers to him as "my bear." The song also tells of certain companions of the bear, like a goat that could represent "the old goat" Sir Barristan Selmy. I would go on, but I'm sure someone has gone through this more thoroughly. In any event, here the message isn't really what is the underlying current, but it acts more of a prophecy where in symbols take the place of various characters. But alas a discussion for another post. I might write something on it later, but first I would have to check that someone else hasn't already completed the task.

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Thank you for the kind words.

When speaking of the Beauty and the Beast tale(s) in ASOIAF, I think that if Martin intends to replicate one of the stories he will do so in more of a literal over figurative way. Meaning, that he will likely replicate similar narrative beats over metaphorical ones. George rr Martin as, I have said before, is highly influenced by Tolkien, and Tolkien himself was very much against allegory. He valued applicability over allegory. I think it is fair to assume that Martin would take a similar stance on the issue. Thus when it comes to guessing at which version of the classic tale he would mimic I think that it may be best to avoid using allegory as a method to tie the two together. As for me, I choose to focus more on structure and less on any imposed meaning (note my signature). That isn't to say that he will not stumble onto an interpretation that may fit into one of the allegories, but I would doubt that this would be intentional. Of course maybe I'm wrong and that is indeed his plan. I just would be careful not to fly to close to the sun.

Well, strictly speaking, any version of the story in which the man is not a a cursed prince and does not look like a half-lion or half-some other animal, and does not physically transform into a beautiful human in the end, is allegorical rather than literal. :)

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Well, strictly speaking, any version of the story in which the man is not a a cursed prince and does not look like a half-lion or half-some other animal, and does not physically transform into a beautiful human in the end, is allegorical rather than literal. :)

but your post was focused on theme rather than structure. your post was focused on meaning rather than narrative. And as you are aware, i was using the more colloquial version of the term allegory that of which focuses on the moral or political message embedded in a story.

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but your post was focused on theme rather than structure. your post was focused on meaning rather than narrative. And as you are aware, i was using the more colloquial version of the term allegory that of which focuses on the moral or political message embedded in a story.

Well the narrative can't be the same for obvious reasons (lack of curse/animal transformation) and the meaning is not the same for all versions of the story, and is dependent on the interpretation.

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Well the narrative can't be the same for obvious reasons (lack of curse/animal transformation) and the meaning is not the same for all versions of the story, and is dependent on the interpretation.

to quote tolkien

I think that many confuse applicability with allegory, but the one resides in the freedom of the reader, and the other in the purposed domination of the author.

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someone on here asked a question about robert strong a little bit ago and i gave a kind of similar answer to what you posted. as kind of a repeat here was a theory i posted (ive seen it a few other places so its not my own but i was thnking along the same lines). i doubt itll actually play out like this but it does make some sense...



little finger plans to wed himself to sansa. he gets the closest thing to catelyn he ever will, but more importantly for him, he also gets more land and power as hell become the true heir to the north over roose bolton. the news also spreads that sansa is indeed alive and well. this doesnt sit too well with cersei because shes still technically tyrions wife and under suspicion of murdering joffrey. only problem is that there is no true evidence against sansa and tyrion has taken the fall for it already. with sansa getting more and more distraught and put in more bad situations she ends up killing little finger. now cersei has a reason to put sansa on trial.



before all this goes down, robert strong wins cerseis trial in very convincing fashion (likely choice seems to be lancel). cersei, still paranoid about the younger, more beautiful princess, starts to think that maybe its been sansa this whole time and not margaery. with sansa killing little finger, cersei now has evidence to put sansa on trial. knowing shell be found guilty, as a last ditch effort, sansa asks for a trial by combat in hopes that someone will stand for her. with more rumors of robert strong flying around, they manage to reach the quiet isle. after robert strongs trial win sandor decides to leave and take a risk in kings landing to find out if strong really is gregor. you can fill in the rest there with the hound reaching kings landing in time to also find sansa there and decides to fight for her.



a lot of people use the gravedigger theory against sandor returning but i think it actually works in his favor....



- the elder brother makes a claim that he has miraculous healing powers that maesters cant come close to. if thats true than sandors leg should heal just fine.


- if sandor really is a converted man, a lot of it could be from hearing of gregors death and not knowing if hell ever recover enough to fight again. if he hears of robert strong and gets his leg fixed, that could change him back in a heartbeat. wouldnt be out of character for him to just get up and leave.


- also wouldnt be out of character for him to simply be using the isle as a place to recover and keep a low profile, seeing as he is wanted for being a traitor. i dont think anyone would be surprised if the hound just used the elder brother for is own gain then walks away without saying a word.



would also come full circle with his arc if he simply tells the elder brother thanks but i need to go find robert strong. the elder brother was also a soldier and if he has this vast knowledge of healing and magic, he might just know that little fire sword technique that beric and thoros use. sandor overcomes his fear of fire to kill his undead brother and save sansa in the process. its not quite like she imagined but she loosely gets her brave knight to save her like shes always wanted.



again, not too likely, but its not too far fetched compared to a lot of other theories.


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someone on here asked a question about robert strong a little bit ago and i gave a kind of similar answer to what you posted. as kind of a repeat here was a theory i posted (ive seen it a few other places so its not my own but i was thnking along the same lines). i doubt itll actually play out like this but it does make some sense...

little finger plans to wed himself to sansa. he gets the closest thing to catelyn he ever will, but more importantly for him, he also gets more land and power as hell become the true heir to the north over roose bolton. the news also spreads that sansa is indeed alive and well. this doesnt sit too well with cersei because shes still technically tyrions wife and under suspicion of murdering joffrey. only problem is that there is no true evidence against sansa and tyrion has taken the fall for it already. with sansa getting more and more distraught and put in more bad situations she ends up killing little finger. now cersei has a reason to put sansa on trial.

before all this goes down, robert strong wins cerseis trial in very convincing fashion (likely choice seems to be lancel). cersei, still paranoid about the younger, more beautiful princess, starts to think that maybe its been sansa this whole time and not margaery. with sansa killing little finger, cersei now has evidence to put sansa on trial. knowing shell be found guilty, as a last ditch effort, sansa asks for a trial by combat in hopes that someone will stand for her. with more rumors of robert strong flying around, they manage to reach the quiet isle. after robert strongs trial win sandor decides to leave and take a risk in kings landing to find out if strong really is gregor. you can fill in the rest there with the hound reaching kings landing in time to also find sansa there and decides to fight for her.

I'd be extremely surprised if Littlefinger dies anytime soon, especially while Cersei is still alive and in power. Cersei is barely holding onto power as it is, while Littlefinger is only starting to put his plans in order, not to mention that he's a much better player than she is.

He's not stupid. There's no way he'd try to marry Sansa while she's 1) still officially married to Tyrion and he's alive - the marriage would not be legal, and 2) still wanted by the crown, since the Lannisters are still in power. I'm sure he wants her to either marry him eventually, or eventually be his lover while he's the power behind the 'throne', but he can wait. He needs to get Sansa rid of her marriage first unless Tyrion dies, which I don't think he will any time soon, to rally the enemies of the Lannisters around her, and play her as a hot political marriage currency that she is due to her inheritance. I bet he'd love for Edmure and his child to die, because that would make Sansa the heir to Riverrun as well as far as most of Westeros knows, and if the marriage to Harry goes through and Sansa has a child, he can find some way to get rid of Harry, maybe conveniently have him killed in a battle. Of course, that's just what I think LF is planning - I don't think for a second he'll manage to make all that work, especially since he's going by the assumption that he can control and manipulate Sansa even when she becomes more powerful in her own right.

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  • 2 weeks later...

First post! *throws confetti*



Alright, so I'm thinking two things - first Sansa and her relationship with Sandor, and second Sandor's place in the story overall:



GRRM writes some pretty awesome wimmin in his story, and few of them are strangers to sex and killing. Catelyn was happily married and could slit a throat if she had to. Arianne used sex to control Arys Oakheart, but left the actual killing to her sand snake cousins. In contrast, Arya and Brienne are virgins, but while one is an assassin the other is a knight in shining armor. Daenerys is sexually free, she is not shy of her body, married twice and having a lover in between. Sansa is none of this.



She is a virgin and she has never killed anyone. She is pure and unspoiled, in every sense of the words, and that is combined with her sweet innocence and gentle kindness. She is the Maiden in mortal form, and the best of a highborn lady - proper, adoring and seemingly faint. This brings out the true nature of the people around her. They see a maiden from the ballads and either hates her or loves her for that - they either want to break her or protect her. Tyrion always stood up for her, and Sandor - despite his coarseness and harsh words - starts to act more of a true knight than he ever had before.The ballads do not sing about people like them, but Sansa gives them a breeze of it.



Many people believe that Sansa will become a master politician, and I agree, but I disagree with that she will become a murderer or that she will exploit people heartlessly. Arya is the killer, the assassin, the murderer. Cersei is the selfish, power-hungry schemer. Daenerys is the conqueror who use marriage and sexual beauty. There is no point in repeating what they do, and if there is a woman who will rise to power by not using sex or murder it's Sansa. I believe Sansa will be something else, something beautiful that is untouchable and unspoiled that people will adore and put on a pedestal. Not a real ballad, as ASOIAF is as it is, but the closest thing it can get.



And I think Sandor will return to her. He was her only safety in KL until he left, and she healed something in him. Heck, she reduced the fearsome Bloodhound to tears!



I cannot see them with a joined future as husband and wife - I'm not in the "Ohno! Sansa is too young for him!/Sandor is too old for her!" or in the "SanSan is adoooooorbs!!". Sure, he is infatuated with her, but I wonder if it might be partly an ideal he loves in her. And Sansa's feelings for him is a bit of dependent he-keeps-me-safe coupled with a teenage girl's tumbling hormones. Keep in mind, Arya and Sandor are extremely alike, and Sansa and Arya couldn't stand each other. I image Sandor returning to Sansa's side as a bodyguard, a replacement for Lady. I'm actually expecting Sansa will eventually start to warg into Sandor.




As for Sandor's place in ASOIAF ... Well, Sandor offers a voice to what it's like to be horribly burned. The story is called A Song of Ice and FIRE. I don't think he's done here.



Here's something: Sansa is in the Vale, where the mountain clans reside, among them the Burned Men. If the Gravedigger theory is correct, Sandor is on the Quiet Isle - not far from the Vale. The Burned Men mutilate themselves by burning off a body-part - the more important the body part the more prestige the warrior gains. Timett son of Timett burned out his own eye and became Red Hand. Half of Sandor's face is burned. True, it was not by his own doing, and he'll probably think the Burned Men are bloody dorks, but still ...


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That is why I suspect that he is unlikely to mock the beauty and the beast trope. The story of beauty and the beast is in and of itself a bit of a contrarian's fairy tale. The beautiful maiden falls for a frightful beast and not a handsome prince. This feels very much Martin's style, and, while possible, I doubt he would undermine that little tale.

Agreed. As GRRM has said, Beauty and the Beast is a love story, and his favorite version of the tale is Cocteau's La Belle et la Bete. There's a parallel to the script he wrote for the show (the doll takes the place of the glove). He's following the plot pretty closely for Sansa and Sandor, too. There's even something to account for the fake Hounds there (Avenant).

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