thisistherevolt Posted October 1, 2014 Share Posted October 1, 2014 So we all know Mel is fixated on kings blood, for blood magic, etc. How has she not picked up on Jon Snow? As he has three (if R+L=J) possible royal lines for ancestors, the Targaryens, Bael the Bard, and the Starks, how in the, name of all that is holy (weirwoody?) did she miss this? I am truly baffled by this, and will leave this to discussion with a quote by Jon that seems tailor made for this: " Are you so blind? Or is it that you do not wish to see?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonBranRickon Posted October 1, 2014 Share Posted October 1, 2014 Kings blood has never been fully defined. Kings blood may only refer to the seed of the Dragon. Somehow I think that the Starks do not fall into that category. You can take a clue from the show, where Mel doesn't even care to deal with Arya whom she had to know was a Stark. As it relates to Jon, and he being the son of R&L. Since she seems to see him every time she ask about AA in her flames, she would not want to feed him to the flames or tip her hand that it is Jon not Stannis that is AA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mladen Posted October 1, 2014 Share Posted October 1, 2014 Kings blood has never been fully defined. Kings blood may only refer to the seed of the Dragon. Somehow I think that the Starks do not fall into that category. And Mance does? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonBranRickon Posted October 1, 2014 Share Posted October 1, 2014 This could be another clue like with Varys, that he may be a descendant of house Targ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mladen Posted October 1, 2014 Share Posted October 1, 2014 This could be another clue like with Varys, that he may be a descendant of house Targ. They all are... There isn't one person in ASOIAF universe that isn't Targ-related... Unless of course you want to claim that Mance is actually Rhaegar... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Ned's Little Girl Posted October 1, 2014 Share Posted October 1, 2014 So we all know Mel is fixated on kings blood, for blood magic, etc. How has she not picked up on Jon Snow? As he has three (if R+L=J) possible royal lines for ancestors, the Targaryens, Bael the Bard, and the Starks, how in the, name of all that is holy (weirwoody?) did she miss this?I am truly baffled by this, and will leave this to discussion with a quote by Jon that seems tailor made for this: " Are you so blind? Or is it that you do not wish to see?" Mel is blind and she does not wish to see. She's getting intel on Jon Snow in her fires constantly while she is at the wall and she doesn't see it. She's fixated on Stannis being everything. She's even seen Bloodraven in the flames; he could certainly clue her in on Jon Snow but because she's already decided that Bloodraven is the enemy she won't get the message from there either. Mel's not a person who can be swayed from her notions by mere facts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thisistherevolt Posted October 1, 2014 Author Share Posted October 1, 2014 Mel is blind and she does not wish to see. She's getting intel on Jon Snow in her fires constantly while she is at the wall and she doesn't see it. She's fixated on Stannis being everything. She's even seen Bloodraven in the flames; he could certainly clue her in on Jon Snow but because she's already decided that Bloodraven is the enemy she won't get the message from there either. Mel's not a person who can be swayed from her notions by mere facts.You could also be describing both sides of American politics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thisistherevolt Posted October 1, 2014 Author Share Posted October 1, 2014 Kings blood has never been fully defined. Kings blood may only refer to the seed of the Dragon. Somehow I think that the Starks do not fall into that category. You can take a clue from the show, where Mel doesn't even care to deal with Arya whom she had to know was a Stark. As it relates to Jon, and he being the son of R&L. Since she seems to see him every time she ask about AA in her flames, she would not want to feed him to the flames or tip her hand that it is Jon not Stannis that is AA.Well I don't think Edric Storm had enough dragon blood to count, but Mel still wanted to burn him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balerion the one eared cat Posted October 1, 2014 Share Posted October 1, 2014 I believe it could be because she's got other plans for Jon in the long run. Because Robb being crowned King in the North would make Jon a first target for king's blood, surely? And if Stannis has declared himself king, she could also use his blood - but she has seen their futures in her fires and so won't use their blood for her magic. Perhaps she is becoming more aware that Jon could be the true AAR rather than Stannis, or simply recognises that he will become important in some way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thisistherevolt Posted October 1, 2014 Author Share Posted October 1, 2014 I have been wondering what Thoros or Moqorro would see in their fires if one of them were at the Wall instead of Melisandre. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hos the Hostage Posted October 3, 2014 Share Posted October 3, 2014 I think Mel believes you need the blood of old Valyria to wake a dragon. In Westeros, it is king's blood, because both Targaryens and Baratheons have blood of the dragon. So does Martells and Robert's bastards, but they are not accessible to Mel. She tried to make use of Edric Dayne, and Davos saw to that. If she meets Mya, Gendry or Bella, she will want their blood. But she doesn't need the blood of any Northern King. Robb was an usurper, any way. Being related to him doesn't help(harm). Jon is also descended from the kings of winter, who ruled the North for thousands of years. If they wanted his blood, they could have easily supported Janos Slynt's views and punished Jon. Stannis would want a loyal lord of Winterfell, but Mel would want a dragon, and she is a master manipulator. But Stannis and Mel did not try to harm Jon. So burning Jon was not in the cards. Why burn Mance, then, after Jon told them explicitly that Mance has no king's blood? Stannis needed Mance alive, to make use of his knowledge. Mel needed Mance alive, probably coz she saw in the fires that he will help the cause of R'hllor. We already seen how she freed Davos for the same reason. So they both hatch a plan, to fake Mance's burning and use him for their own advantage. It is out of character for Stannis to do such trickery, but if he resolved to kill Mance sometime later, he could convince himself he is not doing anything wrong, especially with the safety of the realm at stake. (Mance knows a lot about Others and can help fight them). Burning the little prince was his soldiers' idea, not his, nor Mel's. Jon switched the babies for nothing. But Mel might have planned on burning Aemon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoned Dragon Posted October 3, 2014 Share Posted October 3, 2014 It takes the blood of the dragon to wake dragons from stone. Melisandre, because she is from Ashaii, doesn't seem to think about Valyria or actual dragons at all when considering Azor Ahai. She just doesn't come from a culture that would think about dragons being limited to one bloodline, or perhaps she doesn't care. In either case, if she had burned Mance and then the little prince, she probably could have done some wicked magic, since blood sacrifice always creates some form of power, but it wouldn't have been enough to wake any dragons. But I have a feeling in the next book she'll get the recipe right. I mean, Jon Snow is literally the blood of the dragon -- Rhaegar. He's clearly dead, and like everyone that dies at the Wall they are going to burn his body as a precaution against him rising from the dead. And just like that Melisandre has the power of whatever one sacrifice of "king's blood" taking place via fire provides. But there needs to be another death, since Melisandre's men claim you need two kings to wake the dragon. When Daenerys woke her dragons, the entire process required her unborn son, her husband, and MMD to die -- a process that was repeating at the end of ADWD. In the last book, Jon Snow (kings blood #1) died followed by Daenerys' unborn child while she miscarried in the Dothraki Sea (kings blood #2). Both MMD and Melisandre are shadowbinders trained in Asshai, and they use fire magic with the proven power of resurrection -- the tools are all there for a recreation of Daenerys' funeral pyre for Drogo. If we wanted to get figurative, we also have a "stone dragon" at the Wall -- Shireen, who is part-Targ and a survivor of Grey Scale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted October 3, 2014 Share Posted October 3, 2014 She has other plans in mind for Jon. She wants to make shadow children, with him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryanfury Posted October 3, 2014 Share Posted October 3, 2014 :thumbsdown: Kings blood is a crock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brav Posted October 3, 2014 Share Posted October 3, 2014 Having just refreshed my memory of the Wars of the Roses by reading The Hollow Crown by Dan Jones, I think royal blood is key to what happens. GRRM has taken bits and pieces of the history and characters and changed things around but basic themes are there. The Targs are essentially the old dynasty, the Plantagenets. A weak Plantagenet/Targaryen king with mental heath issues (Henry VI/Aerys) becomes a political crisis for the country. Richard Duke of York claims the throne but is killed. His son, Edward IV/Robert Baratheon, claiming royal blood, seizes the throne. The act of usurption of the throne essentially opens it up to others with some royal blood to have a crack at the throne. There are three usurpers in a row: Edward, Richard III and Henry Tudor. Edward is briefly kicked off the throne but comes back. All the way through they battle others over their legitimacy, other lords with some royal blood and imposters. Even Henry's son Henry VIII has to deal with pretenders. fAegon seems to represent the imposters who troubled Henry Tudor. In some ways Dany is the Henry Tudor figure - the half-brother of Henry VI who lived in exile - but then she'd also be the Targs restored rather than the throne moving on to a Targ descendant which would be more realistic. Stannis is most likely the Richard III figure. There's a strong chance he will get to KL briefly. But there's going to be several others who will have a go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted October 3, 2014 Share Posted October 3, 2014 If I'm not very much mistaken then Melisandre never intended to burn Mance or his son, at least not to use his 'king's blood' for a spell. She explicitly states in ADwD that she thinks she, Stannis, an Jon have leverage over Mance because they have his son, suggesting, that she considers the child a hostage, not a sacrifice. The idea that Mel wants to burn Mance's son is Jon's brainchild. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thisistherevolt Posted October 4, 2014 Author Share Posted October 4, 2014 The original point I was trying to make was Mel is obviously not seeing what is right in front of her face. I'm wondering if "waking a dragon from stone" means getting Jon out of his coma. By what means is up in the air, I am in the camp that thinks Jon is not dead. Remember, the cold preserves... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steelborn Posted October 4, 2014 Share Posted October 4, 2014 When Daenerys woke her dragons, the entire process required her unborn son, her husband, and MMD to die -- a process that was repeating at the end of ADWD. In the last book, Jon Snow (kings blood #1) died followed by Daenerys' unborn child while she miscarried in the Dothraki Sea (kings blood #2). Both MMD and Melisandre are shadowbinders trained in Asshai, and they use fire magic with the proven power of resurrection -- the tools are all there for a recreation of Daenerys' funeral pyre for Drogo. I don't buy this. Rhaego and Drogo died long before the pyre, so it's not like she traded their lives for two dragons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thisistherevolt Posted October 4, 2014 Author Share Posted October 4, 2014 I don't buy this. Rhaego and Drogo died long before the pyre, so it's not like she traded their lives for two dragons. That is a very good point. It is a FUNERAL pyre after all. Not to mention, I'm pretty sure Dany did not miscarry, it was just the return of Aunt Flo. "When the Sun (Quentyn) sets in the east, and the mountains blow like leaves (Ser Patrek getting tossed about by Wun Wun)" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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