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Why Tyrion's story would be ruined if he is a Targ, but not Jon's?


Edmure's Floppy Fish

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Let me start this by saying that I DO NOT BELIEVE TYRION IS ANYONE BUT TYWIN'S SON!!!

Now that I have gotten that out of the way, I hope I can ask this question without being blasted.

The most common reasoning given for why Tyrion can't be Aery's son is because it would devalue his story given his character is defined by his relationship with his Father, Tywin. I agree with this, Tyrion's arc had been influenced based on how his father perceived him, and he has evolved as a character because of it. You see from the beginning in AGOT when Tyrion tells Jon, "all dwarves are bastards in their fathers' eyes" that Tyrion is aware of his status and can see it defines him.

So almost everyone aware of R+L=J believes it and expects it to be revealed at some point. In my opinion, Jon has been defined by his bastard status, and I will take it a step further and say he is defined by being a Northerner. The only reason Jon is in the NW is because his bastard status wouldn't allow him to do much else at the start of the books. He has recalled unpleasant memories because of being a bastard as recent as the later chapters in ADWD. So he is still affected by being a bastard.

As I stater earlier, I see the reasoning of why Tyrion can't be a Targ. But why is that same logic not applied to Jon? It goes without saying, this logic assumes R&L were married and Jon is a true Targ.

FYI, I don't have an opinion on this, I sincerely want to know how other people look at it.

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The argument that it would devalue his storyline is baloney. If anything it would make it even richer and more complex. I really do not understand how anyone could argue (and trust me, some do) that Tyrion being someone else's son would somehow make Tywin's treatment of him justified.



Tyrion's arc is defined by how EVERYONE treats him, not just his father. Tywin is certainly the most substantial, and arguably the worst part it, but that's largely wrapped up in Tywin's own daddy issues and leftover emotional baggage from his childhood and early adulthood.



Once again I will point out the chimera argument, which solves all of the issues nicely--even if it's not possible in-universe. :D



Possible arguments for why it is different for the Jon storyline: the man who raised him was kind, whereas it was his mother figure who basically tried to pretend he didn't exist; Jon's siblings did not make a point of making him feel bad; Jon's not an ugly misshapen dwarf; Ned never pulled that "I can't prove you're not my son" crap; Aerys was a crazy pyro, whereas Rhaegar was respected and even loved; Jon, coming from Aerys and Rhaella's line could be TPtwP, Tyrion couldn't because he's missing the Rhaella portion; there's a chance that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married, but there is no chance that any Targ and Joanna were married (wouldn't that be an awesome twist though?).



I'm with you on Tyrion's parentage by the way. I think he's 100% Lannister. I think he's going to ride a dragon and be the third head, and he doesn't have to have Targ blood to do either.


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The argument that it would devalue his storyline is baloney. If anything it would make it even richer and more complex. I really do not understand how anyone could argue (and trust me, some do) that Tyrion being someone else's son would somehow make Tywin's treatment of him justified.

Because nothing like exonerating person of the greatest crime due to messed up father/son dynamics is making it richer and complex? No, actually it makes it cheap way of evading the stigma.

Not only that Tyrion's arc in ADWD, all God knows how many chapters would become utterly redundant, due to exoneration of committed crime, but entire arc would actually be turned upside down. Tyrion is such beautiful character because of the irony that Genna actually pointed out: that the son Tywin wanted in terms of intelligence is actually the son Tywin spent his entire life hating. Tyrion's arc wouldn't be more complex if he discover he is a Targ. It would be: "I am Targ, I am not a kinslayer, hooray"... That can't be said for Jon whose identity as a Stark is certainly far deeper than Tyrion's connections with his Lannister family. That is what brings another level of complexity in Jon's story, that can't be argued for Tyrion. Once faced with Targ ancestry, Jon will have some serious identity crisis, for Tyrion, at this point, would be just "Yay, I am not a kinslayer". The potency of killing Tywin would be severely diminished.

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The mystery of Jon's parentage is one of the very first we were introduced to. That it has a good resolution is important in its own right because it is its own mystery. The effect it has on Jon's story is unknown, he may never even learn of it, and it will not effect the formation of his character that came from being raised a bastard.

Tyrion's parentage was not presented as an outright mystery in its own right. So if we were to learn that he is a Targ bastard (which he totally is not) that would not be satisfactory in and of itself and so would be judged as part of Tyrion's story. Tyrion's character formation came from both his dwarfism (which like Jon's bastard status leads him being treated by an outsider to everyone) and his rejection specifically by Tywin - which is a more powerful story if we do not suddenly learn that wasn't his father.

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I think the reason is that there is already so much evidence backing up Jon as a Targ, way more than there is Tyrion being one.



I could still roll with it if Tyrion was a secret targ, but I just don't see it happening. We have a possible red herring secret targ (aegon), a real secret targ (jon) and I really don't think we need any more secret targs...



I just don't picture GRRM and Oprah writing a series together like "you get to be a secret targ, and YOU get to be a secret targ, and you and you and YOUUUUU"

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If Theon's arc has proven anything, it's that the man who raised you is your father, regardless of who provided the semen.

I don't think so. Theon is nothing like Ned and they weren't that close. Theon's problem is that he wasn't a Stark and he wasn't really a Greyjoy either.

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Now that I think about it, it would be really stupid if there were two secret Targs in the books. If you actually look at it from an author's point of view it's just not something you would do. You can't pull the 'secret targ' revelation once, and then do the exact same thing later in the books.


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One of the main motifs in ASOIAF is precisely identity and nature vs nurture. We have, for instance, Ned, who has been raised by an Arryn, believing Honour is something he should completely aspire to be. Robert has been raised by the same man and he definitely doesn't mind about honour in the way Ned does. And the examples go and go.



Jon is probably a Targaryen by name, but he has believed all his life to be a Stark, which in fact he also is because of his mother, exactly the part he doesn't know. He has no idea who his mother is, and ironically, his identity comes from his mother's side. If Tyrion is not a Lannister but a Targ, the situation is similar but not the same. He is still a Lannister due to his mother, but he doesn't lack an identity in the way Jon is. Jon earns to know where he comes from. Tyrion doesn't.



Sometimes, I feel that wanting certain characters to be Targs only fits a wish to excuse them from their actions. For instance, no one doubts Dany is Aerys' daughter because Dany is "crazy" to some. Yet, she's not remotely close to Aerys in her behaviour. Cersei is. Hence, that would explain why she is how she is, instead of simply make her guilty and responsible for her actions. And making Jaime not a son of Tywin would fit with his chapters in Feast when, while he tries to make himself more of a Lannister, he is on his way to change. By not being Tywin's real son he's receiving a "reward".

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Because Tywin rejected and hated Tyrion, and in the end Tyrion is truly Tywin's son. He and Tywin have much more in common than either would care to admit. Having him turn out to be a secret Targ would arguably undercut the power of that observation, especially if Tyrion eventually realizes and accepts how similar to his father he really is. Now, you could say there would be a certain poetic irony to Tywin's truest son being not his son at all, but, for me, it's more poignant that the son that Tywin always treated as a de facto bastard is, in fact, a lion through and through.



Jon's story is not tied to Ned in the same way that Tyrion's is tied to Tywin. It's not a good comparison.


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I don't think so. Theon is nothing like Ned and they weren't that close. Theon's problem is that he wasn't a Stark and he wasn't really a Greyjoy either.

I wasn't claiming Theon was similar to Ned, just as I don't actually think Tywin and Tyrion are as alike as everyone makes out. The son is not the clone of the father. But Theon has to fake being a Greyjoy, whereas his connection to Winterfell, which dominates his arcs in both ACOK and ADWD, comes naturally. He doesn't recognize Asha, but even in his demented state, he knows immediately that Jeyne isn't Arya. Of course, that's actually because he hadn't seen Asha for years, but emotionally speaking, GRRM's making the case that Theon's hostage-family is, perversely, truer to him than the family he was taken away from.

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It's really two completely different relationship dynamics.



Jon has to reconcile with the fact that Ned, the man who loved him and raised him and claimed him, is not his father.



Tyrion has to reconcile with the fact that Tywin, the man who hated him and rejected him and tried to have him killed, is his father.


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How in gods name is people on these boards propagating the stance that the theoretical realization of Tyrion beng Aerys son would " ruin his relationship/story with Tywin" a determent in whether or not the theory will ultimately be true or not? People having the overly spoken opinion on these specific forums that it would somehow for them ruin the tyrion-tywin father-son dynamic (which it shouldnt for the same reasons Jon still emulates Ned but thats a whole other discussion) in no way is evidence for or against the theory, nor an indicator for the ultimate direction that'll be taken.



If people theorized before the Red Wedding that Robb and Cat may be killed, and in their opinion that would ruin whatever in the story for them, it wouldnt have stopped GRRM from publishing it, nor would it be decent reasoning to dissuade people from believing in the possibility of the RW happening on the grounds of it personally ruining whatever aspect of the story for you; And the Red Wedding certainly upset a fair amount of GRRM's readers (at a time when the series was less known), many more than this would


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The argument that it would devalue his storyline is baloney.

Agree. I don't think it would devalue his story any. In the setting they were in, any father (except for the rare exception) would have treated Tyrion as different and it would have been a contentious situation. Jon's relationship/opinion of the man who brought him up will maybe change (for the better) when he knows the truth but does not change who and what he has become because of Ned. I see the same for Tyrion. Tywin has shaped Tyrion's life and decisions and the path he has taken to a great deal. Knowing that Tywin did not donate the sperm is not going to change that and Tyrion has to still with the consequences.

I don't think Tyrion is a secret Targ, but if he is, I don't think it ruins or spoils his story in any way.

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In my humble opinion, none of them should be a Targaryen. If Jon needed to have the blood of the dragon, then the Targ parent should be the secret mom, so Ned would still be his father. I don't like the fact that Jon isn't his son. At all. I think all about this theory/fact is too contrived, to make readers surprised when it's revealed... Which didn't work. :lmao:

Besides, I dislike both Rhaegar and Lyanna.

Anyway, at least there's a mystery about Jon's origin to be solved, the same can't be said about Tyrion. People may see it, but there isn't one. :dunno:

There are still two things that make me dislike this whole "Secret Targaryen" thing. It's something that seems like a potentital plot gift. Like, whoa, let's make this character more interesting... He should be a secret Targ!!! \o/ This idea is very childish and stupid, imo. Like a character needs to have the blood of the dragon(and a dragon to ride) to be relevant/"badass".

If it's used once, it's okay(unless it's used to make Jon some sort of Messiah :thumbsdown: ). If it's used twice, with two characters that most of the readers love, it would scream "FANSERVICE!!!".

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How in gods name is people on these boards propagating the stance that the theoretical realization of Tyrion beng Aerys son would " ruin his relationship/story with Tywin" a determent in whether or not the theory will ultimately be true or not? People having the overly spoken opinion on these specific forums that it would somehow for them ruin the tyrion-tywin father-son dynamic (which it shouldnt for the same reasons Jon still emulates Ned but thats a whole other discussion) in no way is evidence for or against the theory, nor an indicator for the ultimate direction that'll be taken.

->

Actually, if people are right that it would ruin the relationship story, that's a very powerful argument that the theory will not be true. Why would Martin write the Tyrion story in a way that ruins the relationship dynamics with his dad, which have been important to him?

That's the kicker, though. Are they right? You really can't be sure of the answer to that.

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