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Dornish Debates iii: Of Kings and Courts


Chebyshov

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Let’s keep the sexy going.

Dornish Debates Glossary

Past threads:
Dornish Debates i: What Gender was Yronwood’s Lover?
Dornish Debates ii: Of Orphans and Inheritance
Dorne Appreciation Thread (got into some debates halfway through)

Related:
Trial by Folly: The Arianne Martell Reread Project
"Someone told. Someone always tells"

Some topics to think about:
-The Dornish Marches: they have a rich history of being battlegrounds. Any chance we’ll be seeing that again, and if so, against whom?
-Dornish Kingsguard members: always starting trouble?
-Propose one Dornish marriage & explain why!

Buuuut, I’m going to start things off with the most cracked of all the pottery:

The Vulture King of the Night
I’ve recently decided that our favorite rogue, Darkstar, is going to be the next Vulture King. Who is the Vulture King, you might ask? Is it a man? An ideal? Well, our history tells us that the vulture King was a traitor. A self-proclaimed king who rose up and hid in the Red Mountains. He had to be “burned out” by the Lords Dondarrion and Caron, along with a host of 800 knights and 4,000 foot soldiers. Supporting quotes from D&E I and a very brief mention in ASOS:

“It has always been so. I am not . . . I am not a cruel man, Ser Davos. You know me. Have known me long. This is not my decree. It has always been so, since Aegon’s day and before. Daemon Blackfyre, the brothers Toyne, the Vulture King, Grand Maester Hareth . . . traitors have always paid with their lives . . . even Rhaenyra Targaryen. She was daughter to one king and mother to two more, yet she died a traitor’s death for trying to usurp her brother’s crown. It is law. Law, Davos. Not cruelty.”

Ser Manfred was a thin man with a sour look on his face. He wore a black surcoat slashed with the
purple lightning of House Dondarrion, but Dunk would have remembered him anyway by his unruly mane of red-gold hair. “Ser Arlan served your lord father when he and Lord Caron burned the Vulture King out of the Red Mountains, ser,” he said from one knee. “I was only a boy then, but I squired for him. Ser Arlan of Pennytree.”

Ser Manfred scowled. “No. I know him not. Nor you, boy.”

Dunk showed him the old man’s shield. “This was his sigil, the winged chalice.”

“My lord father took eight hundred knights and near four thousand foot into the mountains. I cannot be expected to remember every one of them, nor what shields they carried. It may be that you were with us, but . . .“ Ser Manfred shrugged.


We also know from a TWOIF spoiler that


There was more than one Vulture King in history. This indicates a pattern in Dornish history…and patterns repeat.



That’s about we know, though there a ruined castle named “Vulture’s Roost” near Wyl, and House Blackmont (not far from High Hermitage) has the most curious sigil. We can guess that the Vulture King may have wished for Dornish independence. His hiding in the Red Mountains suggests that he may have used similar guerrilla tactics as the Dornish used to remain unconquered years past. The Northern Red Mountains are also part of the Dornish Marches, where many a scuffle with the neighboring Reach and Stormland houses has occurred. So the Vulture King maybe wanted war with his neighbors.

How does Darkstar fit the bill? Well, we know he’s bad-tempered, cruel, and hungry for war:

He has a cruel mouth, though, and a crueler tongue. His eyes seemed black as he sat outlined against the dying sun, sharpening his steel, but she had looked at them from a closer vantage and she knew that they were purple. Dark purple. Dark and angry.

You were a fool to make him part of this. Darkstar is the most dangerous man in Dorne.

Darkstar had escaped him, the most dangerous of all her little group of plotters. He had outraced all his pursuers and vanished into the deep desert, with blood upon his blade.

Ser Gerold drew his sword. It glimmered in the starlight, sharp as lies. “This is how you start a war. Not with a crown of gold, but with a blade of steel.”

And here’s the noble Ser Daemon’s take:

"Is that what Darkstar is? A man?" Ser Daemon grimaced. "A man would not have done what he did to Princess Myrcella. Ser Gerold is more a viper than your uncle ever was. Prince Oberyn could see that he was poison, he said so more than once. It’s just a pity that he never got around to killing him."



We also know he has no love for his Reach neighbors (at the least). High Hermitage is right on the border):

I am no murderer of children. “Put that away. Myrcella is under my protection. And Ser Arys will permit no harm to come to his precious princess, you know that.”

“No, my lady. What I know is that Daynes have been killing Oakhearts for several thousand years.”

His arrogance took her breath away. “It seems to me that Oakhearts have been killing Daynes for just as long.”

“We all have our family traditions.” Darkstar sheathed his sword. “The moon is rising, and I see your paragon approaching.”


So his personality kind of fits with what you’d expect of a Vulture King. But mayhaps there’s a bit of foreshadowing too:

The girl will ask him to hunt down the man who hurt her. If he is the man I judge, Swann will not be able to refuse. Obara, you will lead him to High Hermit-age to beard Darkstar in his den.

This is still just a game to him, Quentyn realized, no different than the time he led six of us up into the mountains to find the old lair of the Vulture King.

Note the similarity. Not to mention, Obara, Swann, and Hotah are attempting to smoke him out.

Finally, there’s this tidbit:

“Garin the Great,” offered Drey, “the wonder of the Rhoyne.”

“That’s the one. He made Valyria tremble.”

“They trembled,” said Ser Gerold, “then they killed him. If I led a quarter of a million men to death, would they call me Gerold the Great?” He snorted. “I shall remain Darkstar, I think. At least it is mine own.” He unsheathed his longsword, sat upon the lip of the dry well, and began to hone the blade with an oilstone.


On the surface, it sounds as if this makes Darkstar an unlikely candidate for the Vulture King. But this could be Martin playing with us; it would make for some lovely dramatic irony if he does lead to the deaths of many. Plus, Gerold is also arguing that it’s best to keep your own identity (Dornish, perhaps?) and not lead any foolish missions. Hiding in the Red Mountains wouldn’t be doing this; it would be relying on the tactics that have proven successful for Dorne on many occasions.

I was going to add in the chance that he steals Dawn because we haven’t seen it yet, and nearly every single mention of Darkstar that we have, his current sword is mentioned (or he’s whining about Arthur’s “great sword”). But that’s a take-it or leave-it element.

The point is, we have a pissy, enigmatic figure who has clearly demonstrated his want of war. We are also continually told how dangerous he is, plus he’s currently on the run and doesn't have much recourse as it is. Perhaps naming himself Vulture King and hiding in the Red Mountains is his best bet. Far-fetched? Of course! Do you like it though?

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I like this idea. Surely something atleast slightly significant has to happen regarding darkstar!

Right?! I mean what else? Just imagine a Hotah POV where they come across an army mustered in the Marches and a self-proclaimed king. Now imagine any other option...it's dull!

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I'm currently obsessed with three aSoIaF related things: Arianne's sex life, Blackfyres, and the Vulture King. Now if we could only somehow make him a Blackfyre (purple eye! Come on! It's perfect!) Ser Gerold Dayne would be the personification of all the stuff that fills me with extreme fangirlism.



He's kind of The George's Jar Jar at this point, but I do think he has a chance to be awesome, or at the very least significant. Like, significant enough that it justifies setting Areo Hotar up as a POV.



I would be really upset if he killed Obara Sand, though, and I think she's going to have to die to prove the situation is serious, if you know what I mean. She's the Sand Snake with the most characterization behind her. She has this wall of aggression built around herself to try to protect her from her shitty childhood and his she probably never felt like she fit in with her sisters, let alone her cousin, who's a princess for fuck's sake, and Obara is just "the whore's get".



I don't really like her, but she's a good character. Unlike Nymeria and Tyene, who I do like, but are, let's face it, a little flat.


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I love it! Hope this comes true...its nit far-fetched at all

And here I thought I'd be laughed off the forums! :cheers:

I'm currently obsessed with three aSoIaF related things: Arianne's sex life, Blackfyres, and the Vulture King. Now if we could only somehow make him a Blackfyre (purple eye! Come on! It's perfect!) Ser Gerold Dayne would be the personification of all the stuff that fills me with extreme fangirlism.

He's kind of The George's Jar Jar at this point, but I do think he has a chance to be awesome, or at the very least significant. Like, significant enough that it justifies setting Areo Hotar up as a POV.

I would be really upset if he killed Obara Sand, though, and I think she's going to have to die to prove the situation is serious, if you know what I mean. She's the Sand Snake with the most characterization behind her. She has this wall of aggression built around herself to try to protect her from her shitty childhood and his she probably never felt like she fit in with her sisters, let alone her cousin, who's a princess for fuck's sake, and Obara is just "the whore's get".

I don't really like her, but she's a good character. Unlike Nymeria and Tyene, who I do like, but are, let's face it, a little flat.

I tried to work in Blackfyres somehow, but the only way I can do that is if we see a Dornish rift, about which I am loathe to theorize. But, let's say Darkstar goes to hide in the Red Mountains. Well, we know

of two hosts that are currently amassed there. One of which has BF ties. Maybe Darkstar gets them on his side. Further, maybe Arianne rejects Aegon as an imposter, so he somehow he agrees to ally with Vulturestar (promising Dornish independence) if Vulturestar and the Yronwood host can keep Doran's other forces occupied until Aegon is on the IT in return.

So this links the GC to Darkstar, and if you assume Aegon is a BF (emphasis on you), then there ya go. Arianne's sex life, BFs, the Boneway, and the Vulture King all in one.

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Double post, thanks Internet.

But I'm going to take this time to say that I don't get how everyone points to "Dany's treatment of Quentyn" as a reason for Dorne not siding with her.

"Tell me, Gerris, why did Dany reject the offer?"

"Well she was already betrothed and the wedding was set for the morrow."

"Oh, that's reasonable. And given the recent tragedy in her family's history over broken engagements, I get it. So how did he die?"

"He went to steal her dragons; said that's what you would have wanted."

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So this links the GC to Darkstar, and if you assume Aegon is a BF (emphasis on you), then there ya go. Arianne's sex life, BFs, the Boneway, and the Vulture King all in one.

Thanks Cheb!

And this thread is a great place for reasonable personal crackpot theories to be born. Cheb has the Vulture King, JonCon's Beard as the "no one told" theory (which, yeah, I buy 100% at this point) and even I have my crazy Arainne and Anders Yronwood thing. And also my embarrassingly earnest Arianne/Daemon Sand shipping, which isn't a theory, because it's gonna happen.

I've been thinking a little bit about how Lady Nym and Tyene don't really have a character (yet). Let try the Red Letter Media test. Explain the Sand Snake character without describing them physically or referencing their role in the plot.

It's easy enough with Obara: she's a skilled fighter who uses her physical toughness to cover up her emotional insecurities. She has trouble expressing her emotions in a constructive way.

Nym: Um, she loved her father. I know because the text told me.

Tyene: Pretends to be innocent to manipulate people. Not really explaining her character.

Sarella: A seeker after truth. Very intelligent, learns quickly.

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Thanks Cheb!

And this thread is a great place for reasonable personal crackpot theories to be born. Cheb has the Vulture King, JonCon's Beard as the "no one told" theory (which, yeah, I buy 100% at this point) and even I have my crazy Arainne and Anders Yronwood thing. And also my embarrassingly earnest Arianne/Daemon Sand shipping, which isn't a theory, because it's gonna happen.

Yeah, though I'd say "no one told" is hardly a crackpot (added it to the OP...thanks for the reminder!). I just love how much there is about which to speculate when it comes to Dorne. I'll keep my VK theory in the crackpotted category, unless TWOIAF gives me cause to believe that it's "mentioned for a reason."

I've been thinking a little bit about how Lady Nym and Tyene don't really have a character (yet). Let try the Red Letter Media test. Explain the Sand Snake character without describing them physically or referencing their role in the plot.

It's easy enough with Obara: she's a skilled fighter who uses her physical toughness to cover up her emotional insecurities. She has trouble expressing her emotions in a constructive way.

Nym: Um, she loved her father. I know because the text told me.

Tyene: Pretends to be innocent to manipulate people. Not really explaining her character.

Sarella: A seeker after truth. Very intelligent, learns quickly.

Yeah, the only thing I can add to their descriptions would be like, Hotah's security-risk assessments: Nym has blades! Tyene poisons people! Sarella is an archer! Not exactly a characterization.

Though, maybe in the case of Sarella, I'd point out that she seems fairly empathetic and self-assured. I dunno, I liked it when she comforted Pate about Leo Tyrell taking Rosey's virginity. But that's more me taking one line and running away with it. And she was just downright cocky with the drunken apple game.

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Based on something that Rhaenys said in the reread thread, I've got to ask this: Am I the only one who thinks Sarella is in Oldtown just because she wants to get an education? Do I have to add that to the list of crackpot theories?



And yes, we must all bow before the impeccable well-reasonedness of the "no one told" theory. :bowdown:



This isn't the place for it but, Great Kukalaka the Rosie thing! Oh, the feminist rant I wish to have about that!


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Dornish love! How have I not seen this before?!

On the VK, what are we to make of a Stormlander incursion into Dorne to engage the VK, as opposed to the Dornish themselves? Tacit approval by the Martells of the VK, perhaps?

Welcome! Come share in the Dornish love (we have peppers too) :cheers:

Yeah, my thoughts too, which is why I'm thinking the VK was maybe pushing towards Dornish independence. Of course, there's also the argument to be made that the Stormlords are a lot closer to the Red Mountains than Sunspear. Still, to your point:

Princess Deria assured Aenys that she was not supporting/backing the Vulture King, but there was talk that she may have provided him with provisions and money.

Dug up the above in this spoilery post from the longcon reading: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/115696-spoilers-sons-of-the-dragon-reading-at-loncon-today/?p=6134038

The part about the VK is below (under the tag)

The final would-be king was the so-called Vulture King. His lair was in the border region of the Red Mountains, between th Dornish Marches and Dorne. According to Ran, there are Dornish Marches in the Reach as well as in the Stormlands. My careless line of him getting support from 'all over the place' was obviously supposed to mean that he got support from people in those regions, not from the Riverlands, the North, or the Vale. I really thought that would be obvious... A few early victories against the Marcher Lords led to a vast swelling of his ranks, at at one point he had about 30,000 men.
Princess Deria assured Aenys that she was not supporting/backing the Vulture King, but there was talk that she may have provided him with provisions and money.
The Vulture King successfully took and burned Blackhaven and killed Lord Harmen (sp.) Dondarrion. His downfall began when he split his army into three parts, thinking that they could still crush any foe. Orys Baratheon took care of one army, and successfully captured Walter Wyl in the process, whose father was apparently responsible for the loss of his hand [i imagine during the attempted Conquest of Dorne which also led to the death of Rhaenys Targaryen]. He cut him to pieces, and although he died on the march back of wounds from the battle, his son Davos, who was with him [we don't know if he was his eldest son, and the successor as Lord of Storm's End] when he died, said that he looked strangely content when he looked at Lord Walter's rotting feet and hands...
The Vulture King's other armies were brought down by an alliance between the new Lord Dondarrion, Lady Caron, and Lord Samwell 'Savage Sam' Tarly, who fought with Heartsbane in hand. The Vulture King was captured in what became known as 'the Vulture Hunt'. Savage Sam caught him, and chained to rock to die there. Talk goes that vultures devoured him, but it seems that he died of thirst in truth.
He was but the first of many Vulture Kings. The name was used by many outlaws/bandit chieftains in the region, and it's not known if they were related to each other. Another Vulture King must have wreaked havoc during the days of Daeron II, when Ser Arlan helped bring him down in the service of the father of Lord Manfred Dondarrion. [Ran actually told me that GRRM originally had the idea to have another Vulture King kill Maekar I, but that's obviously no longer the case.]

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Based on something that Rhaenys said in the reread thread, I've got to ask this: Am I the only one who thinks Sarella is in Oldtown just because she wants to get an education? Do I have to add that to the list of crackpot theories?

And yes, we must all bow before the impeccable well-reasonedness of the "no one told" theory. :bowdown:

This isn't the place for it but, Great Kukalaka the Rosie thing! Oh, the feminist rant I wish to have about that!

I am almost certain that she is there for more. She's heavily associated with Marwyn, and Marwyin has been at the Citadel for years. Who else spend a few years at the Citadel? That would be Oberyn..

Sarella is being provided with money, which most likely has to be send from Dorne, right? So there has to be someone in Dorne who knew about Sarella being at Oldtown, under a fake name, and identity.

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To add:


"Unless she returns to Dorne, there’s naught I can do about Sarella save pray that she shows more sense than her sisters. Leave her to her...game."



Hella suspicious for Doran to say. Though she does seem the type who would have wanted to attend regardless of any grander scheme.


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I feel a bit late to the game but nonetheless -- A+ on The Vulture King of the Night theory! :cheers: It gave me butterflies, not joking.





Right?! I mean what else? Just imagine a Hotah POV where they come across an army mustered in the Marches and a self-proclaimed king. Now imagine any other option...it's dull!




:drool:


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I feel a bit late to the game but nonetheless -- A+ on The Vulture King of the Night theory! :cheers: It gave me butterflies, not joking.

Why thank you! This started as a bit of a silly "why not" theory, but the more I pulled quotes for it, the more it got me on board. And that spoiler post from long con sounds promising. I'll probably update once TWOIAF is out (fingers crossed for LOTS of Dornish business in that book).

Also, here's something everyone can't unsee: I stumbled across some lovely fanart of Darkstar as a French Maid. Yup.

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I am almost certain that she is there for more. She's heavily associated with Marwyn, and Marwyin has been at the Citadel for years. Who else spend a few years at the Citadel? That would be Oberyn..

Sarella is being provided with money, which most likely has to be send from Dorne, right? So there has to be someone in Dorne who knew about Sarella being at Oldtown, under a fake name, and identity.

It's perfectly in character for Oberyn to be supportive of his daughter's wish to get an education despite not having a penis, so I don't her family knowing she's in Oldtown under an assumed name requires much explanation. Neither does her getting money from her dad. That's what dad's are for.

Maybe she got involved in Marwyn shenanigans while there, like a rich kid joining the Marxist Club, but the idea that she was planted there just seems unnecessary.

Also, here's something everyone can't unsee: I stumbled across some lovely fanart of Darkstar as a French Maid. Yup.

Can anyone here draw? I have a request for Oberyn and Ellaria doing Star Wars cosplay where Oberyn is Princess Leia and Ellaria is Han Solo. Because why the fuck not?

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Indeed, this is the place where the theories are born /o/




Also, here's something everyone can't unsee: I stumbled across some lovely fanart of Darkstar as a French Maid. Yup.





Can anyone here draw? I have a request for Oberyn and Ellaria doing Star Wars cosplay where Oberyn is Princess Leia and Ellaria is Han Solo. Because why the fuck not?




I can't draw males (I'm jealous of that Victarion!!!). Only chibis or cute ones. And I have a big list of ASOIAF stuff to draw, starting with Victarion pushing his ship across the sand and the Three Kingsguards and a Baby :lol:


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