Dornish Debates iii: Of Kings and Courts

[Chebyshov]

Dornish-Debates Sayings Glossary:
I felt like this might come in handy...please let me know if I forgot anything :)

Dornish Anti-Trust Law
This is mostly based on House Yronwood’s inheritance*, where it appears that Ynys gave up her claim to Yronwood when she married the heir of Allyrion. Our crack-pottery led to the suggestion that to avoid messy inheritance, Dornish House heirs cannot marry other houses’ lordlings/ladylings in need of heirs of thier own unless someone gives up a claim. It would make sense for the tie to go to the more powerful lord overall. But in the case of Ynys+Ryon, Ynys had two siblings whereas Ryon is Lady Delonne’s only child, so it made more sense for Ynys to abandon her claim to Yronwood allowing the couple to be in line to inherit Godsgrace.

*Some have suggested that Anders “Criston Cole Reborn” Yronwood actually practices Westerosi inheritance, which is why Cletus and not Ynys was his heir in the first place. However, if this were the case, this surely would have been pointed out to Arys by Arianne as it would have directly supported her point about her “threatened” birthright. Semi-canonical sources seem to suggest that Yronwood practices equal primogeniture as well.

Dornish Spouse Island^TM
The result of the peculiar fact that there are no referenced spouses for the ruling Dornish ladies and lords. Seriously, none. The one exception is Mellario, who broke tradition anyway as Doran married her “for love.”

Because of well-established and respected institution of paramours (we could think of this as concubinage), marital decisions in Dorne seem to be incredibly politically driven and pragmatic, focused on producing heirs, whereas paramours satisfy the need for love and intimacy. This is evidenced by both Arianne and Quentyn being very class-conscious when thinking about their matches (daughters of landed knights are not fit for Quentyn, for example).

The lack of canonized Dornish spouses coupled with this rather austere institution of marriage seems to suggest that once the active-reproduction phase of the marriage is over, couples stop living together, likely in favor of their preferred paramours. So where do Dornish spouses go? That is the mystery that has become Dornish Spouse Island^TM.

Dornish Spouse Snobbery
As was mentioned in the above entry, Dornish Spouse Snobbery is our official term for the fact that Dorne seems to be uber class conscious when it comes to choosing their spouses. Quentyn thinks to himself, As daughters of a landed knight, the twins were too lowborn to marry. Yeah, well seeing as Doran married Mellario, it’s interesting how much the status still maters to Quentyn…I guess he’s out to fix daddy’s mistakes (whoops). But whatever, the Dornish are snobby about their choice in spouses, and if we can capitalize a phrase, then it belongs in this glossary.

Dornish Sexy Times^TM
I very much hope that this is self-explanatory.

Mama Martell
Our name for Doran, Elia, and Oberyn’s mom, despite the fact that TWOIAF could have easily cleared this up and didn’t :bang:. “Loreza” is a good guess, but until any app updates, Mama Martell it is…*sigh*.

The father of Doran, Elia, and Oberyn is known as "Papa Consort." He is rarely referenced by us and never referenced by the characters. We think he died or something.

Mama Martell's next man, who Oberyn calls her "consort" that traveled to Casterly Rock along with Elia, Oberyn, and Mama Martell, is known as "Trophy Consort." We know absolutely nothing about this man, other than that he's probably not the papa because of Oberyn's oddly formal way of referring to him. We also think this means Papa Consort died, else Trophy Consort would be called a "paramour" instead. We've speculated that he might be significantly younger than Mama Martell, because she was probably a cougar who wanted some hot, young eye-candy. Maybe he was her paramour while Papa Consort lived :dunno:.

Daemianne & Arianders
Ship names. The S.S. Daemianne is AriannexDaemon Sand. This ship sails itself.

Arianders is Julia Martell’s crackship between Arianne and Anders Yronwood, though it depends on if his wife is dead or chilling on the beach of Dornish Spouse Island^TM. However, it would be a very good way to ensure Dornish unity.

I was going to suggest Trystane and Gwyneth, but I can’t decide between Trysteth or Gwyntane, and they both look like when I mash on my keyboard in excitement, so let’s ignore that. Arianne and Aegon would be Arigon, which not only sounds like a Pokémon, but is something I’ll scream at you for suggesting.

Martell Communication Deficiency Syndrome^TM (MCDS^TM), Arianne’s Year of Angst^TM, Martell Guilt^TM
Born of the reread threads, these concepts are all about those unique dynamics in the Sunspear family. Arianne’s Year of Angst^TM is when she was 14, which is the year she read Doran’s disinheritance letter, began/possibly also saw the end of her first sexual adolescent relationship, and likely the year Mellario moved out. Bad poetry abounded.

MCDS^TM and Martell Guilt^TM is all about Doran and Arianne’s shared character flaw of not being able to have open communication, as well as Doran, Arianne, and Quentyn’s continual internalization of any fault. We don’t know if Trys was saved from this…Oberyn certainly was, but it helps to contextualize a lot of those wacky family issues going on.

Martell Sass^TM

The snark is strong in these ones. Not all Martell family traits make for angsty years. Martell Sass^TM is an ability found in all members of the ruling House of Dorne...except Ser Mud (though once again we'll have to wait to make a judgement call about Trys). These folks, even including illegitimate daughters, can dish-it-out. Booyah! Here are some examples:

“Father,” [Arianne] announced as the curtains opened, “Sunspear rejoices at your return.”

“Yes, I heard the joy.”

"A knight of the Kingsguard... what did you do to him?”

“I fucked him, Father. You did command me to entertain our noble visitors, as I recall.”

The High Septon began with a prayer, asking the Father Above to guide them to justice. When he was done the father below leaned forward to say, “Tyrion, did you kill King Joffrey?”

He would not waste a heartbeat. “No.”

“Well, that’s a relief,” said Oberyn Martell dryly.

Oh snap. I think the Queen of Thorns better watch her Dowager Countess butt if she wants to remain sass-master.

Dornish Negotiations

Dornish Negotiations are negotiations…with a lightsaberthe pointy end of the peace banner. The Dornish can be a bit, eh, prickly when it comes to getting their way. It’s kind of a crapshoot though. Dornish Negotiations could land you in bed with a prince[ss] or could get you roasted alive in Hellholt. The number one rule? Let the Dornish win. Why? Because the Dornish always fucking win. Hell, even when Dorne finally joined the fold, they somehow negotiated themselves out of kneeling or paying taxes, which makes all of us wonder what it even means to be in a kingdom.

Itsa me…Mellario!
Mellario’s name is fucking stupid and makes me think of this whenever I type it, so now I’m going to ruin the name for everyone.

Daemon Sand’s Balls
Daemon Sand has huge balls. They’re somewhere in between the size of the Reach and the North. We don’t make this up, but we do have an obligation to point this out. Nevermind the fact that he’s essentially a hurt puppy whose little dimpled face has been pining for Arianne for 10 years, because Daemon’s swagger more than compensates. Bastard born? Meh, Ima ask for Arianne’s hand. Doran locked up the Snakes? Meh, best to go scream at him. If you’re wondering how he keeps all dat in dem jeans? We don’t know. The world will never know.

Neanderthal Daemon

Neanderthal Daemon is everything. This is exactly what fanart should be. Hair color? Homo sapien? Who cares! Neanderthal Daemon is the spitting image of hotness, especially when dressed as Mal from Firefly.

[Julia Martell]

I love that Arianders is now officially “Julia’s crackship”. Yay! :laugh:

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Neanderthal Daemon is everything, indeed. That image is terrible. He JUST discovered tools, apparently =(

[Julia Martell]

Should we start calling Doran, Elia, and Oberyn’s father Papa Consort? We don’t seem to talk about him a lot, though. Poor nameless, irrelevant, non-entity. (Maybe Quentyn takes after him? I’m mean. :frown5: )

Neanderthal Daemon is everything, indeed. That image is terrible. He JUST discovered tools, apparently =(

It does not help that that spear looks like it’s Mousterian or something. Seriously, is that a Clovis point?

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Nice!

[Chebyshov]

Neanderthal Daemon is everything, indeed. That image is terrible. He JUST discovered tools, apparently =(

And he got the poison all over his hands. Poor Neanderthal Daemon and his lack of fine motor skills.

Should we start calling Doran, Elia, and Oberyn’s father Papa Consort? We don’t seem to talk about him a lot, though. Poor nameless, irrelevant, non-entity. (Maybe Quentyn takes after him? I’m mean. :frown5: )

I could get behind Papa Consort, but he won't even get his own entry. I'll just slap it on the end of Mama Martell's entry because that's his lot in life.

[Chebyshov]

The man Oberyn calls her "consort" that traveled to Casterly Rock along with Elia, Oberyn, and Mama Martell is known as "Papa Consort." We know absolutely nothing about this man, other than that he's probably not the papa of Doran, Elia, or Oberyn. We've speculated that he might be significantly younger than Mama Martell, because she was probably a cougar who wanted some hot, young eye-candy.

Y/N?

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Y/N?

Wait... if he is not the papa of Doran, Elia, or Oberyn... the real was he sent to Dorne Spouse Island, Husband Division? D:

[Julia Martell]

Y/N?

I meant it to refer to their actual father.

And JCRB, you should know better, there is no gender segregation on Dornish Spouse Island. Not even on the nude beach.

ETA: Maybe we can call her much younger second husband who Oberyn doesn’t like, Mama Martell’s Hot Husband or MMHH for short. Or how about The Trophy Consort?

[Chebyshov]

I meant it to refer to their actual father.

And JCRB, you should know better, there is no gender segregation on Dornish Spouse Island. Not even on the nude beach.

I have confusion now. Are you saying that Oberyn probably calls his dad "my mother's consort," or that Papa Consort is the dad who probably died and NotThePapa is the dude on the CR fieldtrip?

[Julia Martell]

I have confusion now. Are you saying that Oberyn probably calls his dad "my mother's consort," or that Papa Consort is the dad who probably died and NotThePapa is the dude on the CR fieldtrip?

I meant for Papa Consort to be Doran, Elia, and Oberyn’s biological father who is never even once referred to in the text, even indirectly, since that’s how much as of non-entity he is.

The guy Oberyn referred to has “my mother’s consort” who was probably not his father because that would be a strange way to refer to one’s own father does not yet have a stupid nickname. At least not one made up my me.

[Chebyshov]

Okay fixed it and went with Trophy Consort, because of course I did.

[Julia Martell]

I love us all. We rock so much. :grouphug:

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I want a trophy consort too :(

[Chebyshov]

I want a trophy consort too :(

I'd settle for being someone's trophy consort.

Should I add "Pentos" to the glossary? I mean "Pentos" how we evoke it, meaning "hai guys remember that one time Quentyn promised Tatters Pentos and that seemed really fucking stupid"?

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Is it anywhere specifically stated that Princess Aliandra and Drazenko Rogare were married.. Or is it possible that we're talking about another Princess of Dorne who was married to Drazenko? A sister of Aliandra's, for example?

[Wmarshal]

Regarding the Conquest of Dorne:

While violating a peace banner would, in a modern context, be a violation of international law, so too would the Dornish Conquest in the first place. Daeron waged what would be now considered an illegal war of aggression. Taken within the context of Westeros, while Aegon I certainly estbalished the idea that conquest is justified, the fact is that Daeron violated a peace that Aegon himself had estbalished and it doesn't seem like he did it for any other reason that he felt that he could. There is no actual justification provided for Daeron to go to war with Dorne. Since he violated a peace and staged a war of aggression purely for his own pride and greed, I find little reason to criticize the Dornish alone.

The fact is that while rules of war are important, that should apply to starting wars too. As far as we know, Daeron had absolutely no good reason to start war. That in itself is, in my opinion, an offense as bad as, if not worse than, violating a peace banner. Based on what we know, Aerys II had more justification when he set off Robert's Rebellion than Daeron did.

I know this was ended a while ago, I just felt this was never brought up, at all, Princess Aliandra, who lived during the time of Aegon III, openly encouraged raids on the marches. Again, for the record, I would like to mention if Daeron really did what he did in the MUSH, he had it coming, but saying that he had no reason to break peace is not really true.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Should I add "Pentos" to the glossary? I mean "Pentos" how we evoke it, meaning "hai guys remember that one time Quentyn promised Tatters Pentos and that seemed really fucking stupid"?

Add Dornish Negotiations. That could be either stick them with the pointy end of the peace banner or using "more than words alone".

[Julia Martell]

Is it anywhere specifically stated that Princess Aliandra and Drazenko Rogare were married.. Or is it possible that we're talking about another Princess of Dorne who was married to Drazenko? A sister of Aliandra's, for example?

I don’t remember it ever being explicitly stated, no. But it does seem a fair assumption.

I'd settle for being someone's trophy consort.

Yeah, to be fair, being someones trophy consort seems like a lot less work than having a trophy consort, because that means you actually have to rule something, and ruling the Dornish, for all their ability to unify against a common foe, must be like herding cats.

I have a very serious topic for everyone: Just how big are Daemon Sands balls?

I mean, first when he’s fourteen, for fuck’s sake, he tells a guy who can have people whipped for sitting down out of turn that he had sex with his daughter (according to that App, it was Arianne who told Doran, but I think that makes him more brave not less since he couldn’t even rely on Doran’s shock to shield him.) and that he wants to marry her and skrew Dornish Spouse Snobbery.

Then there’s the fact that he seemingly went behind her back to do it. I doubt this pleased the Princess of Teenaged Angst.

Then he spends nine years developing a reputation that was badass enough that apparently people are not in the habit of questioning him about his sexual relationships.

Then he goes and yells at the Prince of Dorne and DEMANDS, not begs, petitions, or asks, DEMANDS that he release three known rabble rousers.

And then, to top it all, he goes and used the “c” word in front of a princess of Dorne. Remember the huge deal Rohanne Webber made of the fact that Dunk said “pissing” in front of her? Well Daemon doesn’t care! Daemon’s like a Dornish Honey Badger, if he wants to say “cunt” he will. He’s lucky she didn’t throw him off the battlements into the sea, let alone slap him.

So how huge are his balls? Are they the size of the Reach, or the size of the North?

[JonCon's Red Beard]

"My Lord, how is your gout this morning?"

"I'm doing fine. Although I can't walk very well right now... why you aske--?"

"I FUCKED YOUR DAUGHTER AND I WANT TO MARRY HER, BYES...."

*cloud of dust*