BarristonTheBAMF Posted October 2, 2014 Share Posted October 2, 2014 Truthfully, reading the "Is Stannis Burning People Justified" just kinda set me off. I just don't get all the apologists for his actions throughout the series. Sure, he has some moments in the series where he does right, and even I found myself rooting for him. But those few moments don't change the fact that he's a hypocrite and frankly, a bad person. First off, one thing I didn't see mentioned in the thread I read was the burning of Gunthor Sunglass and the remaining Rambtons. I mean, the Rambtons were just defending the faith they believed in, and had grown up with, from being burnt by a foreign "witch". Sunglass withdrew his support of Stannis following the burning of the 7 and how the Rambtons were dealt with. They were all imprisoned, then burnt for the red god. Stannis allowed this to happen, or, at the very least, did nothing after returning to Dragonstone and allowed Melisandre to continue her vile ways. Going back in time, his dealing Renly is wrong as well. I don't care that Renly tried to usurp his crown. The crown that their very brother rebelled and ursurped himself. Kinslaying in Westeros is obviously a huge HUGE taboo. Using a shadowbinder and dark arts to kill a brother takes it to a whole new, unfreakinbelievable level. Finally, the last thing I will note here (because I don't have all night) is the cursing of Robb Stark via blood magic. Robb never showed any hostility to Stannis what so ever. Heck, by default, they were actually allies. Didn't stop him from going through with a ceremony to curse him to death. He is too vain and spiteful to see the light. Thats all I have for tonight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onceaskrull Posted October 2, 2014 Share Posted October 2, 2014 I am honestly surprised by Stannis' virulent fandom on these boards, it seems so out of left field. But then, I'm a huge fan of Brynden Tully. Then again, the Blackfish never burned anyone alive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
And Stannis Laughed Posted October 2, 2014 Share Posted October 2, 2014 You're totally right! I'm a fervent member of the Stannis cult...and I too felt actively disgusted upon seeing that thread, and how many chimed in to support. Drama is built around stakes, and stakes are built around morals. I love Stannis because his is the definitive human heart in conflict, and I find it utterly fascinating and drive-me-to-my-knees emotional; I literally shook when I first read the line that birthed my handle. The idea of ''justifying'' the burnings is a staggeringly superficial. The empathy I feel for Stannis in spite of the burnings disturbs me to no end, and makes me think dark thoughts about myself. How more powerful could fiction be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramsay Gimp Posted October 2, 2014 Share Posted October 2, 2014 I agree more with your first point than with your second. Renly and Robb were open enemies (or at least rivals) of Stannis. But the burnings on Dragonstone are inexcusable Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramsay Gimp Posted October 2, 2014 Share Posted October 2, 2014 You're totally right! I'm a fervent member of the Stannis cult...and I too felt actively disgusted upon seeing that thread, and how many chimed in to support. Drama is built around stakes, and stakes are built around morals. I love Stannis because his is the definitive human heart in conflict, and I find it utterly fascinating and drive-me-to-my-knees emotional; I literally shook when I first read the line that birthed my handle. The idea of ''justifying'' the burnings is a staggeringly superficial. The empathy I feel for Stannis in spite of the burnings disturbs me to no end, and makes me think dark thoughts about myself. How more powerful could fiction be? :agree: I am also a big fan of Stannis - he's in my top 5 characters for sure. But his flaws and inner conflict are the main reasons he is so interesting. I can't stand the attempts to whitewash him around here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted October 2, 2014 Share Posted October 2, 2014 I'll do this in list form. 1. I tend to agree about Stannis burning people. It's a terrible way to go and I give Dany shit for burning MMD, too. I guess there's some mitigation in Stannis burning people who would have been sentenced to death anyway (traitors, cannibals, deserters), but all the same, I wish he'd stop doing it. It's easily the one obvious thing he does that makes it difficult to really root for him. 2. Renly would have killed Stannis if it had come to it and pretty much openly said so. Stannis just happened to beat him to the punch. So that I don't hold against him, really. If we condemn any advantage that comes from blood magic then go ahead and condemn the dragons; they're the product of a blood sacrifice. Maybe you do condemn them, I don't know. 3. The leeches didn't actually do anything so I don't hold Robb against him. Was his intent bitchy? Yes. Does it make sense that he would have a bitchy attitude toward the guy who wanted to carve out half the country? Yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
And Stannis Laughed Posted October 2, 2014 Share Posted October 2, 2014 :agree: I am also a big fan of Stannis - he's in my top 5 characters for sure. But his flaws and inner conflict are the main reasons he is so interesting. I can't stand the attempts to whitewash him around here It's frustrating as hell...but then again, GRRM appears to be setting out to dupe us into loving and defending mass murderers. ASOIAF is about us in the end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victarion Chainbreaker Posted October 2, 2014 Share Posted October 2, 2014 It's the hipsters. Jon, Dany, Tyrion, and the Starks are too mainstream, so they latch onto a character who has no chance of becoming the most popular. You probably wouldn't understand why the burning was justified, it's not something mainstream people would get. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Northernmonkey Posted October 2, 2014 Share Posted October 2, 2014 Stannis is a miserable, heartless bastard.....but he's still my favourite character. Why do people feel the need to make excuses for their favourite characters? It's okay to like bad guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stannis's birthright Posted October 2, 2014 Share Posted October 2, 2014 I like StAnnis flaws and all .. As with any leader he makes mistakes ... I consider him the lesser of the remaining evils Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonardo Posted October 2, 2014 Share Posted October 2, 2014 Truthfully, reading the "Is Stannis Burning People Justified" just kinda set me off. I just don't get all the apologists for his actions throughout the series. Sure, he has some moments in the series where he does right, and even I found myself rooting for him. But those few moments don't change the fact that he's a hypocrite and frankly, a bad person. First off, one thing I didn't see mentioned in the thread I read was the burning of Gunthor Sunglass and the remaining Rambtons. I mean, the Rambtons were just defending the faith they believed in, and had grown up with, from being burnt by a foreign "witch". Sunglass withdrew his support of Stannis following the burning of the 7 and how the Rambtons were dealt with. They were all imprisoned, then burnt for the red god. Stannis allowed this to happen, or, at the very least, did nothing after returning to Dragonstone and allowed Melisandre to continue her vile ways. Going back in time, his dealing Renly is wrong as well. I don't care that Renly tried to usurp his crown. The crown that their very brother rebelled and ursurped himself. Kinslaying in Westeros is obviously a huge HUGE taboo. Using a shadowbinder and dark arts to kill a brother takes it to a whole new, unfreakinbelievable level. Finally, the last thing I will note here (because I don't have all night) is the cursing of Robb Stark via blood magic. Robb never showed any hostility to Stannis what so ever. Heck, by default, they were actually allies. Didn't stop him from going through with a ceremony to curse him to death. He is too vain and spiteful to see the light. Thats all I have for tonight. Stannis had no idea what was going to happen with the shadow baby, so right off you're wrong there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stannatic Posted October 2, 2014 Share Posted October 2, 2014 I resent the Hipster label. > =( And about Renly, he had it coming. Renly was a selfish prick who thought just because a bunch of people told him he would make a good king, why not go for it? IIRC he had no evidence of the twincest so he just said "I'll be better at being King so I am rebelling." He was a selfish, vain little prick and he is hopefully burning in all seven hells. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tankbuster Posted October 2, 2014 Share Posted October 2, 2014 It's the hipsters. Jon, Dany, Tyrion, and the Starks are too mainstream, so they latch onto a character who has no chance of becoming the most popular. Well, he has the best Chant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the storm king returns Posted October 2, 2014 Share Posted October 2, 2014 Stannis burnt the Rambtons because they are oath breakers, which in Westeros is punishable by death..........Stannis killed Renly because he is a traitor and trying to Ursurp the rightful kings crown which even worse happens to be his brother, Stannis siezed an oppurtunity to kill him via magic and take back the bannerman which should have been his to Bégin with.Stannis doesnt agree completly with the burnings but is being lead to believe by melisandra it is nesseccary for the greater good of the realm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rouse Me Not Posted October 2, 2014 Share Posted October 2, 2014 I, like the others tend to agree with you on the first point, but disagree on the second. I believe some of the defending of the burnings comes from the common mis-characterization by some that they were intended, (by Stannis) to be ritual sacrifices to The Red God, which makes him a fanatical zealot. This is of course not true, but it doesn't change the fact that burning people alive, whatever their transgressions were, is just about the cruelest method of execution there is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Northernmonkey Posted October 2, 2014 Share Posted October 2, 2014 Finally, the last thing I will note here (because I don't have all night) is the cursing of Robb Stark via blood magic. Robb never showed any hostility to Stannis what so ever. Heck, by default, they were actually allies. Didn't stop him from going through with a ceremony to curse him to death. He is too vain and spiteful to see the light. What about Balon? If you're going to judge Stannis for cursing Rob then you have to judge him for cursing Balon as well. They were in the same boat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
And Stannis Laughed Posted October 2, 2014 Share Posted October 2, 2014 I'll do this in list form. 1. I tend to agree about Stannis burning people. It's a terrible way to go and I give Dany shit for burning MMD, too. I guess there's some mitigation in Stannis burning people who would have been sentenced to death anyway (traitors, cannibals, deserters), but all the same, I wish he'd stop doing it. It's easily the one obvious thing he does that makes it difficult to really root for him. 2. Renly would have killed Stannis if it had come to it and pretty much openly said so. Stannis just happened to beat him to the punch. So that I don't hold against him, really. If we condemn any advantage that comes from blood magic then go ahead and condemn the dragons; they're the product of a blood sacrifice. Maybe you do condemn them, I don't know. 3. The leeches didn't actually do anything so I don't hold Robb against him. Was his intent bitchy? Yes. Does it make sense that he would have a bitchy attitude toward the guy who wanted to carve out half the country? Yes. Yet Stannis, in one of the candid moments of self-reflection he seems to only allow himself in Davos' presence, admits that the northmen have good reason to think of Robb Stark as their true king. Every chapter featuring Stannis overwhelms me emotionally, but I'll never forgive the showrunners for botching this moment: The last was in the king's hand. This one he studied a moment as it writhed between his fingers. ''The usurper,'' he said at last. ''Robb Stark.'' And he threw it on the flames. Stannis does respect and even admire Robb and his cause, given what happened to Ned and to Rickard and Brandon before him, but he represses it. Of course, the burning of the leeches isn't actually what gets Robb killed. But that only emphasizes the extent to which this scene is about Stannis choosing to stamp out the embers of compassion still burning in his oh-so-fiery heart. And it's so sad, I can't bear it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarristonTheBAMF Posted October 2, 2014 Author Share Posted October 2, 2014 2. Renly would have killed Stannis if it had come to it and pretty much openly said so. Stannis just happened to beat him to the punch. So that I don't hold against him, really. If we condemn any advantage that comes from blood magic then go ahead and condemn the dragons; they're the product of a blood sacrifice. Maybe you do condemn them, I don't know. 3. The leeches didn't actually do anything so I don't hold Robb against him. Was his intent bitchy? Yes. Does it make sense that he would have a bitchy attitude toward the guy who wanted to carve out half the country? Yes. Agree that without treachery, Stannis was toast verse Renly's host. Caught by a superior force while slaying siege to a strong castle rarely ends well. Still don't think his method is ever justifiable. It was a dishonorable, dark route to go. As far as Dany's dragons, I really don't know if Dany knew what the heck she was doing or what was going to happen there. As opposed to Melisandre knowing exactly what she was doing. With Robb, I guess the thing that irks me the most is Stannis seemingly didn't even try to come to terms with Robb, or even try to understand his position and crowning. I think if Joffery and the Lannisters were defeated, Robb would have possibly given up his crown anyway with Stannis as king if need be. Stannis just seems to have made a quick, harsh judgment of hatred to Robb, without facts or reason in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarristonTheBAMF Posted October 2, 2014 Author Share Posted October 2, 2014 What about Balon? If you're going to judge Stannis for cursing Rob then you have to judge him for cursing Balon as well. They were in the same boat. Not defending him using "blood magic" on Balon either, or in any case. I hated Balon too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarristonTheBAMF Posted October 2, 2014 Author Share Posted October 2, 2014 Stannis burnt the Rambtons because they are oath breakers, which in Westeros is punishable by death.......... Oaths sworn on the Seven. Which Melisandre was trying to burn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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