Pisseater Prince = stillborn Dayne?

[rozemarijn]

There is something the matter with Ashara, and her haunting violet eyes. She killed herself after she had a stillborn daughter.

What if she 'donated' her bastard ( probably from Stark origin) to her friend Rhaella who was given the idea by Varys. It is an option to pit her bastard child in regal grace and perhaps get a better future. Her close family members know about the swap and it is stated she had a stillborn child. If it is a stark bastard it would have been excellent. Either dark dorne hair or Asahara her Targaryen look.

But the child dies in awful circumstances. Then Arthur dies and Ned shows up at Starfall. He might express his opinion about the death of the children, it might even been publicly known. They respect him for it, which is why he is so appreciated by the family.

Years later, there is Darkstar, who has heard of what has became of his nephew. Which is why he betrays Arianne and tries to kill Myrcella. He wants to take revenge and kill a Lannister child for a child of his own family.

Ashara might be dead (she had reason to kill herself), she might be Lemore. This is not important.

The factor of importance is Varys who has a family of nobility ready to swear Aegon is the true king, because the child that died was their child and not a random boy.

[psyqo78]

For some reason "PissEATER Prince" made me chuckle. As to the theory, it is plausible. Will we ever know for sure though? I think GRRM is going to leave a lot unanswered for us to use our imaginations and puzzle out ourselves.

[rozemarijn]

For some reason "PissEATER Prince" made me chuckle. As to the theory, it is plausible. Will we ever know for sure though? I think GRRM is going to leave a lot unanswered for us to use our imaginations and puzzle out ourselves.

If Varys did take the risk of using a high born boy instead of a pisswater one, he did it for a reason: to legitimize Aegon. It means it will get out because getting it out is the most important part of the plan.

If it doesn't get out I suppose it's just another theory. But I doubt we will never find out. There is to much about Ashara, she is mentioned way to much, and there is so much mystery around her. Except for the Lemore, Jon and Reed theories there is not much explanation for it yet.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Nope. Ashara and her babe were in Starfall for most of the pregnancy, not in KL.

Furthermore, "dark dorne hair" would actually be brown Stark hair or Ashara's brown hair. Neither Elia's black nor Rhaegar's silver.

To top it off, Ashara doesn't need that for her babe. She got no incentive at all and good one not to if she even cares a little.

[rozemarijn]

Nope. Ashara and her babe were in Starfall for most of the pregnancy, not in KL.

Furthermore, "dark dorne hair" would actually be brown Stark hair or Ashara's brown hair. Neither Elia's black nor Rhaegar's silver.

To top it off, Ashara doesn't need that for her babe. She got no incentive at all and good one not to if she even cares a little.

GRRM said we should not forget she was mobile. Plus it does not matter at all were she is, the babe should just get smuggled to Kings Landing. We don't now anything about her or the babes locationduring pregnancy or birth. Only that she died after Ned came by, not after the birth. There is no exact date of the birth, only it happened 'during the war'.

I always figured the Starks had black hair, not brown. The only thing we know about Ashara id she has dark hair, not if it is black or brown. However, the important thing is not the hair, but the eyes. House Dayne is the only house in Westeros which runs purple eyes, except for the Targaryen. Violet eyes are considered very rare in Westeros. I believe the colour of her eyes is often stressed, by Barristan and in the Reed story. And I taught even by Catelyn.

The statement about what Ashara wants: they would not have told/expected what would have happened with the babe. Probably the plan was to split the heirs and her baby was to be an replacement baby to prevent panic in Kings Landing, or because Arys did not want to. Royal baby's usually don't get their heads smacked against a wall. That was a very cruel thing to do.

She knew Rhaella very well, she might have done it. To prove her loyalty or even save the child (the babe was probably Stark), for a reward, out of sympathy. Of course Varys could get to her. What was she supposed to do with it anyway? A man can keep his bastards, especially in Dorne, but a woman? And the bastard of a traitor?

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

What do Rhaella (not present in KL at Sack) and a dark haired child (whereas Aegon had Targaryen looks) have to do with the pisswater prince?

[rozemarijn]

What do Rhaella (not present in KL at Sack) and a dark haired child (whereas Aegon had Targaryen looks) have to do with the pisswater prince?

Elia, I mixed the names up. She was a lady in waiting of princess Elia.

[corbon]

There is no exact date of the birth, only it happened 'during the war'.

Not true. The timing of the birth is unknown. The only reference we have is that Barristan thinks her suicide was 'shortly after' the stillbirth of her child. But thats totally vague and in the context of someone recalling events they were not involved in, from nearly 20 years ago, 'shortly after' could easily be well over a year*. Or a month, we just don't know.

Basically the birth could easily have been well before the war, say 9 months after Harrenhal, around the same time as Aegons birth. Equally it could have been late in the war close to the birth of Jon Snow.

Even aside from his distance from the events he is speculating on here, Barristan is an extremely unreliable source in this area. Its cleaar from his own thoughts that he doesn't have much of a clue what happened really and is speculating himself what might have been going on, largely from 3rd party sources. It seems unlikely that he'd even seen Ashara within the last year or so.

*For example, I went to university 'shortly after' finishing high school, a bit over 20 years ago. That particular 'shortly after' would be around 15 months duration.

[Grape Jackanape]

Alternatively, the oft-described "frail, sickly" Elia, (whom herself was actually born prematurely, Doran tells us) married to a man who genuinely believed he was ordained by prophecy to have three children, was actually the one who had the stillbirth.

Her companion, Ashara, recently "dishonored" by a Stark *cough Brandon cough* around the same time gives birth to a healthy baby boy w purple eyes. One woman has a bastard sired by a enemy of the crown, the other desperately needs a son to appease her scroll reading husband...do the math. :)

ETA: Where eating piss comes into the above speculation, Idk. Maybe Shitmouth is somewhere in the lineage...

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Alternatively, the oft-described "frail, sickly" Elia, (whom herself was actually born prematurely, Doran tells us) married to a man who genuinely believed he was ordained by prophecy to have three children, was actually the one who had the stillbirth.

Her companion, Ashara, recently "dishonored" by a Stark *cough Brandon cough* around the same time gives birth to a healthy baby boy w purple eyes. One woman has a bastard sired by a enemy of the crown, the other desperately needs a son to appease her scroll reading husband...do the math. :)

ETA: Where eating piss comes into the above speculation, Idk. Maybe Shitmouth is somewhere in the lineage...

And no one notices that Elias child was dead and then suddenly alive? The handmaidens? The multiple maesters?

Also, the scenario you describe you effectively ruin every single chance for any future child of Elias to ever sit the throne.

Elia would have had no reason to lie about her child..

[rozemarijn]

Not true. The timing of the birth is unknown. The only reference we have is that Barristan thinks her suicide was 'shortly after' the stillbirth of her child. But thats totally vague and in the context of someone recalling events they were not involved in, from nearly 20 years ago, 'shortly after' could easily be well over a year*. Or a month, we just don't know.

Basically the birth could easily have been well before the war, say 9 months after Harrenhal, around the same time as Aegons birth. Equally it could have been late in the war close to the birth of Jon Snow.

Even aside from his distance from the events he is speculating on here, Barristan is an extremely unreliable source in this area. Its cleaar from his own thoughts that he doesn't have much of a clue what happened really and is speculating himself what might have been going on, largely from 3rd party sources. It seems unlikely that he'd even seen Ashara within the last year or so.

*For example, I went to university 'shortly after' finishing high school, a bit over 20 years ago. That particular 'shortly after' would be around 15 months duration.

The wiki says the (stillborn) child was born during the war.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

The wiki says the (stillborn) child was born during the war.

It wouldn't be the first time someone edited the wiki by stating interpretation as if it was fact. Which page?

[rozemarijn]

It wouldn't be the first time someone edited the wiki by stating interpretation as if it was fact. Which page?

The app, the official wiki.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

The app, the official wiki.

The app is not the wiki ;) The wiki is awoiaf.westeros.org

If the app says that the child was born during the Rebellion, then that's one of the new tibits GRRM provided for the app.

[Ygrain]

I always figured the Starks had black hair, not brown. The only thing we know about Ashara id she has dark hair, not if it is black or brown. However, the important thing is not the hair, but the eyes. House Dayne is the only house in Westeros which runs purple eyes, except for the Targaryen. Violet eyes are considered very rare in Westeros. I believe the colour of her eyes is often stressed, by Barristan and in the Reed story. And I taught even by Catelyn.

Arya took after their lord father. Her hair was a lusterless brown, and her face was long and solemn. (Arya)

It would have been easier if Arya had been a bastard, like their half brother Jon. She even looked like Jon, with the long face and brown hair of the Starks. (Sansa)

[corbon]

The wiki says the (stillborn) child was born during the war.

Marvelous, the unreliable app... :(

ETA: Worse, according to the app quoted in another thread, the app says Barristan says it was during the war, which is a false paraphrase of his statement. The app is inaccurate in this case (though it may not be wrong, the child could have been born during the war).

[rozemarijn]

Arya took after their lord father. Her hair was a lusterless brown, and her face was long and solemn. (Arya)

It would have been easier if Arya had been a bastard, like their half brother Jon. She even looked like Jon, with the long face and brown hair of the Starks. (Sansa)

As I said, the hair is not important. The only reason why Ashara's child would be very convenient and persuasive is of the purple eyes. A very rare feature in Westeros.

[Ygrain]

As I said, the hair is not important. The only reason why Ashara's child would be very convenient and persuasive is of the purple eyes. A very rare feature in Westeros.

I was merely correcting your incorrect assumption about Stark hair.

[rozemarijn]

Marvelous, the unreliable app... :(

ETA: Worse, according to the app quoted in another thread, the app says Barristan says it was during the war, which is a false paraphrase of his statement. The app is inaccurate in this case (though it may not be wrong, the child could have been born during the war).

Well, the sooner the child would be borne the more it would resemble Aegon. He was borne somewhat before the war I believe.

Edit: according to the app ( Oberyns page) Lyanna was abducted shortly after Aegon was borne. So Ashara's child might be very close.

There is something fishy about her pregnancy. We have no proof Brandon was interested in her, he was busy with Lady Dustin at the time and I can't see him doing a woman his brother liked? He told lady Dustin he did not want to marry Catelyn, why not? Because he wanted lady Dustin? Why start something with Ashara?

So it might be Eddard, I mean, he was not engaged. Only Brandon was.

So perhaps he did have a bastard after all. A stillborn girl, fAegon, the babe who's head got smashed.

I mean, who else? She might be hot but she can't have all the men after all.

[Daemon Blackfyre IV]

lol i came up with this already