Pisseater Prince = stillborn Dayne?

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Well, the sooner the child would be borne the more it would resemble Aegon. He was borne somewhat before the war I believe.

Edit: according to the app ( Oberyns page) Lyanna was abducted shortly after Aegon was borne. So Ashara's child might be very close.

There is something fishy about her pregnancy. We have no proof Brandon was interested in her, he was busy with Lady Dustin at the time and I can't see him doing a woman his brother liked? He told lady Dustin he did not want to marry Catelyn, why not? Because he wanted lady Dustin? Why start something with Ashara?

So it might be Eddard, I mean, he was not engaged. Only Brandon was.

So perhaps he did have a bastard after all. A stillborn girl, fAegon, the babe who's head got smashed.

I mean, who else? She might be hot but she can't have all the men after all.

Would Brandon be restricted to sleeping with only one woman? No, he wouldn't. He was a ladiesman, and always took what he wanted..

We have Ned's POV. That gives us a unique look into his thoughts, his feelings, and his worries. Does he come across as someone who would dishonor his newly-wed, pregnant wife? As someone who would father a bastard?

Ned raised Robb with the same morals he believed in. See what Robb does when he sleeps with a girl.. She's not pregnant, but Robb marries her anyway, because he feels he dishonored her. Do you believe that Ned would sleep with a girl out of wedlock, and then just leave, do nothing? That does not sound like Ned.

However, we do actually read about Brandon doing just that.

As to why he did not want to marry Catelyn.. His personal reasons are unknown, of course, but it was an arranged marriage, and Brandon would not have had a say in the matter. Also, it would have restricted him, especially as long as Rickard still lived, he could not risk offending Hoster Tully by sleeping with other women than Catelyn.

And last, it might just have been something that he said to soften the blow for Barbrey, knowing that they'd never sleep together again anyway.

[rozemarijn]

Would Brandon be restricted to sleeping with only one woman? No, he wouldn't. He was a ladiesman, and always took what he wanted..

We have Ned's POV. That gives us a unique look into his thoughts, his feelings, and his worries. Does he come across as someone who would dishonor his newly-wed, pregnant wife? As someone who would father a bastard.

Actually we know very little about Brandon and Eddard was not engaged with Catelyn then.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Actually we know very little about Brandon and Eddard was not engaged with Catelyn then.

We don't know a lot about Brandon, but we do know that he took what he liked, and he liked virgins ;)

And while Ned was not yet engaged to Catelyn back then, I'll ask you again: does it fit even a little with his character? Answer: No, it doesn't.

Making Ned highly unlikely, and Brandon more likely (though it is by no means a confirmation).

[rozemarijn]

We don't know a lot about Brandon, but we do know that he took what he liked, and he liked virgins ;)

n).

We only know he took two woman who offered themselves to him. One because she had a huge crush on him and the other because she had a crush on him and her father wanted her to marry him.

I think lady Dustin has a very idolized/sexualised version of Brandon in her head. 'He took what he liked' come on. I bet that sentence keeps her warm at night twenty years later but it doesn't make it reality.

Besides he was already engaged with Catelyn at Harrenhal (since he was bethrothed at 15 and at Harrenhal he was 18 or 19). So if he did not love lady Dustin but stopped to bed her because of Catelyn he would not have bedded Ashara. If he loved Lady Dustin he would not have bedded Ashara.

Further. The difference with Lyanna and Brandon is their temper, not their lack of morals. When Brandon his sister is kidnapped he risks his live trying to get her back, while for everyone who knew her it should have been clear she was not that unwilling. He was concerned for her honour, not her safety. Another proof of this is Lyanna. She is considered to be hot tempered as well but she objects Robert as a husband because of his bastard child. Which indicates she has strong morals. They were brought up with the same morals, yet you make Eddard a saint and Brandon a playboy, without any evidence except the word of bitter lady Dustin!

Last but not least: which brother would bed a girl his brother was interested in? Especially when there is a chance they even might wed?

[Ygrain]

We only know he took two woman who offered themselves to him. One because she had a huge crush on him and the other because she had a crush on him and her father wanted her to marry him.

I think lady Dustin has a very idolized/sexualised version of Brandon in her head. 'He took what he liked' come on. I bet that sentence keeps her warm at night twenty years later but it doesn't make it reality.

Offered herself or not, she was a virgin and he deflowered her even though it was against the social norms, not to mention his responsibility as the heir of her liege. That's not an exactly flattering image of Brandon.

Besides he was already engaged with Catelyn at Harrenhal (since he was bethrothed at 15 and at Harrenhal he was 18 or 19). So if he did not love lady Dustin but stopped to bed her because of Catelyn he would not have bedded Ashara. If he loved Lady Dustin he would not have bedded Ashara.

/cough/ Did he really love lady Dustin? Did he really stop bedding her because of Cat? He wouldn't be the first man ever who took a convenient excuse to get out of a relationship he was no longer interested in. And, even if he was in love with her and did stop because of Cat, he wouldn't be the first man ever who made use of an opportunity when it presented herself.

Further. The difference with Lyanna and Brandon is their temper, not their lack of morals. When Brandon his sister is kidnapped he risks his live trying to get her back, while for everyone who knew her it should have been clear she was not that unwilling. He was concerned for her honour, not her safety. Another proof of this is Lyanna. She is considered to be hot tempered as well but she objects Robert as a husband because of his bastard child. Which indicates she has strong morals. They were brought up with the same morals, yet you make Eddard a saint and Brandon a playboy, without any evidence except the word of bitter lady Dustin!

Isn't the bolded kind of contradictory?

Besides, it's not just from lady Dustin. It's also Ned, being inexplicably bitter about "everything was always for Brandon" and Cat being quite smitten by his looks.

Last but not least: which brother would bed a girl his brother was interested in? Especially when there is a chance they even might wed?

Brother who wasn't shy about what he wanted and who was used to being entitled to everything. Makes him a D-bag for sure, but not implausibly, in the world where another brother convinced his younger brother that the girl he loved was a whore.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Last but not least: which brother would bed a girl his brother was interested in? Especially when there is a chance they even might wed?

Ygrain covered most of it, but on this specific part, I just wanted to say a bit.

A change Ned would marry Ashara? They had just met, Rickard was unaware, and there was definitely no indication that hey might have gotten married, that such a match was ever proposed or considered.

Surely, Ned could have asked Rickard to look into the match once Ned returned home, but seeing as how there were no such discussions goog one a year later, it seems that shy Ned did do anything like that.

Followed by what Ygrain said :D

[rozemarijn]

Offered herself or not, she was a virgin and he deflowered her even though it was against the social norms, not to mention his responsibility as the heir of her liege. That's not an exactly flattering image of Brandon.

/cough/ Did he really love lady Dustin? Did he really stop bedding her because of Cat? He wouldn't be the first man ever who took a convenient excuse to get out of a relationship he was no longer interested in. And, even if he was in love with her and did stop because of Cat, he wouldn't be the first man ever who made use of an opportunity when it presented herself.

Besides, it's not just from lady Dustin. It's also Ned, being inexplicably bitter about "everything was always for Brandon" and Cat being quite smitten by his looks.

Brother who wasn't shy about what he wanted and who was used to being entitled to everything. Makes him a D-bag for sure, but not implausibly, in the world where another brother convinced his younger brother that the girl he loved was a whore.

That's all speculation and I don't buy it.

1. I am very sure that sweet innocent virgin Lady Dustin seduced him. It may not be proper of him to answer her avances, or the other girl, but he was a very young boy, unpromised to anyone. He must have been younger then 15. It might even be that he expected he would marry her. It was her fathers wish and she would be very stupid just to have sex with him and not talk or hint about the future. Him expecting they would end up together also explains why he excused himself 'not wanting to marry Catelyn'. When you say something like that you are not just 'doing'someone. I just think you really underestimate lady Dustin.

I mean, an elder bitter woman bragging about how someone could not refuse her to Theon Greyjoy? The innocent ones don't brag. Besides she hates the Starks.

2. The 'I don't want to marry Catelyn' story of lady Dustin has three explanations and only one of them makes him a D-bag.

3. The Stark siblings loved each other intense. Lyanna and Brandon went out riding a lot together, we know how much Eddard loved Lyanna. Eddard burried both his siblings in the tomb where they did not belong. I think they were raised as Eddard raised his children and I don't see Brandon 'betraying' his brother like that.

4. Eddard is not bitter. I always read those passages as he deeply regrets his brothers death. He thought his brother would have been a better lord, that's all. Eddard is not someone who likes to be a politician.

5. Eddard was still being fostered and Brandon was not yet married. He might have told his father who said 'I'll see what I can do'. Ashara was 'dishonoured at Harrenhal so I guess she was off the market quite soon which would made a match impossible. It also seems quite logical to wait until Brandon was married. Ashara would have been a great match for Eddard, ladies maid of the queen, brother in the kingsguard. Great connections for someone with 'southern ambitions'. It would seem weird Lord Rickon was not thinking about a match for Eddard when he was marrying his son and daughter?

6. You may believe of Brandon what you want but he had the same morals as his brother. Why would he get a lady pregnant and leave her?

Someone else got Ashara pregnant, not a Stark.

Edit: there is the conversation between Ned Dayne and Arya in which he states His aunt told him Ned and Ashara were in love.

Plus, lets not forget the boy is named after Eddard.

[Ygrain]

That's all speculation and I don't buy it.

1. I am very sure that sweet innocent virgin Lady Dustin seduced him. It may not be proper of him to answer her avances, or the other girl, but he was a very young boy, unpromised to anyone. He must have been younger then 15. It might even be that he expected he would marry her. It was her fathers wish and she would be very stupid just to have sex with him and not talk or hint about the future. Him expecting they would end up together also explains why he excused himself 'not wanting to marry Catelyn'. When you say something like that you are not just 'doing'someone. I just think you really underestimate lady Dustin.

I mean, an elder bitter woman bragging about how someone could not refuse her to Theon Greyjoy? The innocent ones don't brag. Besides she hates the Starks.

...or he was older than that, even older than Barbrey, and the Cat thing wasn't generally known. BTW, ever wondered why he is labelled as "wild wolf" in Meera's story?

For a bitter old woman, Lady Dustin places blame on anyone but Brandon himself - Rickard, his maester, Cat. That doesn't mean that she is right and that Brandon didn't just take advantage of her crush on him, and used his marriage as a convenient excuse when he had enough of her. Because, even if you are just doing someone, you don't tell them "thanks for the fuck and now I'm going to marry this hot Southern chick", when that someone is a daughter of your important vassal.

2. The 'I don't want to marry Catelyn' story of lady Dustin has three explanations and only one of them makes him a D-bag.

Which doesn't make it implausible in any way.

3. The Stark siblings loved each other intense. Lyanna and Brandon went out riding a lot together, we know how much Eddard loved Lyanna. Eddard burried both his siblings in the tomb where they did not belong. I think they were raised as Eddard raised his children and I don't see Brandon 'betraying' his brother like that.

You're making an insubstantiated leap here. When Ned speaks with Cat about Brandon, we can see his bitterness about self-confidence and entitlement which is nothing like Robb, and Ned's treatment of Arya wasn't the same as Rickard's treatment of Lyanna, either. Furthermore, Ned says that Brandon and Lyanna shared a trait that he didn't have himself - wolf blood, wildness.

4. Eddard is not bitter. I always read those passages as he deeply regrets his brothers death. He thought his brother would have been a better lord, that's all. Eddard is not someone who likes to be a politician.

"Everything was always for Brandon." While he does regret his brother's death, that's a very peculiar thing to say, especially for someone like Ned who is not envious.

5. Eddard was still being fostered and Brandon was not yet married. He might have told his father who said 'I'll see what I can do'. Ashara was 'dishonoured at Harrenhal so I guess she was off the market quite soon which would made a match impossible. It also seems quite logical to wait until Brandon was married. Ashara would have been a great match for Eddard, ladies maid of the queen, brother in the kingsguard. Great connections for someone with 'southern ambitions'. It would seem weird Lord Rickon was not thinking about a match for Eddard when he was marrying his son and daughter?

Yes, Ashara would have been a good match. Still doesn't preclude Brandon having his way with her.

6. You may believe of Brandon what you want but he had the same morals as his brother. Why would he get a lady pregnant and leave her?

Because he didn't care? Because he had to marry Cat anyway?

Plus, you're making an insubstantiated claim again, and it goes directly against the text: Brandon slept around while Ned "never was the boy he was" and didn't take carnal pleasures. That's not the same set of morals.

Someone else got Ashara pregnant, not a Stark.

Possible but not necessary true.

Edit: there is the conversation between Ned Dayne and Arya in which he states His aunt told him Ned and Ashara were in love.

Plus, lets not forget the boy is named after Eddard.

A third-hand source says that Ned was in love with Ashara but did Wylla. Yes.

Besides, he is named Edric, not Eddard. The nick might be a nod to The Ned but all Ed- names can be shortened as Ned.

[rozemarijn]

...or he was older than that, even older than Barbrey, and the Cat thing wasn't generally known. BTW, ever wondered why he is labelled as "wild wolf" in Meera's story?

Because they were hot tempered. Brandom rode to Kings landing and shouted for Rhaegar to come out and die. Bit overreacted. Lyanna threatened some squires with a tourney sword, threw wine over her brothers head at a feast.

Arya is wild. Does that mean she will have sex with everyone? No it does not. Hot temper does not mean very seksual. It may but it does not have to.

Besides, as I said before, we are told Lyanna is not like that, and she has the same 'Wolf blood'.

For a bitter old woman, Lady Dustin places blame on anyone but Brandon himself - Rickard, his maester, Cat. That doesn't mean that she is right and that Brandon didn't just take advantage of her crush on him, and used his marriage as a convenient excuse when he had enough of her. Because, even if you are just doing someone, you don't tell them "thanks for the fuck and now I'm going to marry this hot Southern chick", when that someone is a daughter of your important vassal.

It is not about blame, just that lady Dustin tried to catch Brandon and she lost. It is very convenient for herself to think Brandon wanted her but it were 'the others' who did not want them to marry. You make it sound like Brandon was some sex addict who kind off raped her, or took advantage, but I don't believe that. Everything she says implies she used her sexuality to catch a great marriage. A lady can't say that so she implies he wanted her madly and she could not resist. Yeah right.

Her word, which I don't believe, and the so called 'hot blood' which probably have nothing to do with sex, is the only proof you have that Brandon had sex with Ashara. That's nothing.

You're making an insubstantiated leap here. When Ned speaks with Cat about Brandon, we can see his bitterness about self-confidence and entitlement which is nothing like Robb, and Ned's treatment of Arya wasn't the same as Rickard's treatment of Lyanna, either. Furthermore, Ned says that Brandon and Lyanna shared a trait that he didn't have himself - wolf blood, wildness.

"Everything was always for Brandon." While he does regret his brother's death, that's a very peculiar thing to say, especially for someone like Ned who is not envious.

I have never read it that way. It is not because you do that it is true.

Yes, Ashara would have been a good match. Still doesn't preclude Brandon having his way with her.

Ruining a possible match for your brother, you love, knowing he likes her? That is a very mean thing to do.

Because he didn't care? Because he had to marry Cat anyway?

Plus, you're making an insubstantiated claim again, and it goes directly against the text: Brandon slept around while Ned "never was the boy he was" and didn't take carnal pleasures. That's not the same set of morals.

Were did you read that? It is not on the wiki.

A third-hand source says that Ned was in love with Ashara but did Wylla. Yes.

A third hand source? Her sister! You call lady Dustin reliable but not Ashara's sister who has no motivation to lie anyway, which lady Dustin has?

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Besides, he is named Edric, not Eddard. The nick might be a nod to The Ned but all Ed- names can be shortened as Ned.

Edric is just the regional spelling of Eddard. He's named for Ned, just like Edric Storm. If I remember correctly, he even says so himself.

Robert/Robb/Sweetrobin is another example of these regional spellings. Or Brynden/Brandon. It's a theme. Northmen and Ironborn prefer a and o as vocals in male surnames, Southerners replace them with e, i and y.

[Daemon Blackfyre IV]

I think Ned had a big crush on Ashara, i don't believe she slept with Brandon though i think she was raped and the only reason nothing was done about it was because it was the King who did it just to remind his Kings guard that he had all the power and not his son.

The king saw this Tourney as another Whitewalls and maybe he was rite after all i believe the wording was Lord Whent staged the tourney at HARRENHAL. Maybe im just nuts cause obviously Barristan doesn't say anything fishy but Rhaegar wins and names Lyanna TQOLAB. This new bond wins him the North and South he may have insulted Dorne but he is married to the Princess of Dorne and has a child with her. I think his plan all along was to have 2 wives

[corbon]

Because they were hot tempered. Brandom rode to Kings landing and shouted for Rhaegar to come out and die. Bit overreacted. Lyanna threatened some squires with a tourney sword, threw wine over her brothers head at a feast.

Arya is wild. Does that mean she will have sex with everyone? No it does not. Hot temper does not mean very seksual. It may but it does not have to.

Besides, as I said before, we are told Lyanna is not like that, and she has the same 'Wolf blood'.

"likes a bloody sword" - a description with a distinctly sexual innuendo

"took what he wanted"

"wild wolf"

the actual action of deflowering a noble virgin whom he didn't later marry, something disticntly unacceptable socially and quite opposite in character to Ned.

The thing is everything we know about Brandon, his character, his actions, his abilities, his position, all paint a coherent picture. Thats why you don't get to just dismiss things that don't fit - because they do fit, with each other, even if not with one or other theory.

Heck, thats not even going to the fire man/mud man thing either..

Her word, which I don't believe, and the so called 'hot blood' which probably have nothing to do with sex, is the only proof you have that Brandon had sex with Ashara. That's nothing.

Its a heck of a lot more than nothing. Its actual personal experience, with no reason for lying (what good does besmirching Brandon do her?) and its data that fits with everything else we know from other sources.

I don't necessarily believe everything she says either, but the stuff about Brandon matches other sources and she has no reason to lie about it. It doesn't establish anything for her current position to Theon and is almost contradictory to what she says about Ned - if she was lying about that then it would be a more coherent 'me vs Starks' story.

I have never read it that way. It is not because you do that it is true.

Err...

That brought a bitter twist to Ned’s mouth. “Brandon. Yes. Brandon would know what to do. He always did. It was all meant for Brandon. You, Winterfell, everything. He was born to be a King’s Hand and a father to queens. I never asked for this cup to pass to me.” AGoT p. 60

Ruining a possible match for your brother, you love, knowing he likes her? That is a very mean thing to do.

There is no real evidence of anything between Ned and Ashara in the first place, but even if there was, that whole angle about it being a crap thing to do to you brother is bullshit. There's a real person at the other end there, and she gets a say, the biggest say of all in fact. For the "Brandon can't hook up with Ashara because Ned likes her" angle to play you have to ignore that Ashara gets a say, the main say, assume Ned had a thing for her at all, which breaks his character and is unnaturally absent from his thoughts, assume Ned got first claim ahead of Brandon and assume Brandon didn't take what he wanted anyway. Its justy a really really bad argument to try and both morally and technically.

Were did you read that? It is not on the wiki.

In the books.

Robert, who was young Ned's closest companion complained of him that he 'was never the boy you were' and says "She must have been a rare wench to make Lord Stark forget his honor." Clearly Ned didn't fool around the way most young noblemen did.

Brandon OTOH did sleep with the virgin Lady Dustin, while unmarried and didn't marry her. That puts him a long long way along the continuum from Ned even if the 'likes a bloody sword' and 'took what he wanted' are exaggerations or lies on her part. Not to mention GRRM's statement that Brandon died before he had any sons (curiously specific - Ashara supposedly had a stillborn daughter...)

A third hand source? Her sister! You call lady Dustin reliable but not Ashara's sister who has no motivation to lie anyway, which lady Dustin has?

Yes. Please explain what Lady Dustin has to gain be lying about Brandon's character. And why those 'lies' fit so very well with everything else we know about him.

Allyria OTOH is talking about a suicide in the family. Its so much more romantic and 'nice' to have that suicide be a tragic love story than it is to be a dishonoured and abandoned woman whokilled herself because she had such a shit life.

In other words, you have it backwards. Allyria has reason to lie (or be misinformed, or be making up her own story) here (and offers inconsistent testimony (Ned and Ashara were in love but Ned was shtupping Wylla all the same), but Lady Dustin has no good reason to be misleading us about the long dead Brandon.

As to why Allyria is not considered a first hand source, she's been 6 years betrothed to Lord Dondarrion already, yet not married. Lord Dondarrion is (or was) a ruling lord in his mid twenties, so no reason not to marry for him. Its very likely then that Allyria Dayne has been betrothed young and has been waiting to get a bit older before they marry. So she's probably under 18 years old. for her to have had personal experience with Ashara, and to have understood what was going on back then (its nearly 20 years back to Harrnehal tourney now), she'd need to be in her late twenties to early thirties now, which makes it very very unlikely she'd have had a 6 year un-finished betrothal to Lord Dondarrion currently.

In fact, a lot of people believe, or suspect, that Allyria is in fact the not-actually-stillborn child of Ashara (and possibly Brandon), whom Ashara's mother Lady Dayne claimed as her own to cover the bastardy. Not very difficult to do and much better for both Allyria and the famously honourable Dayne family.

Edric is just the regional spelling of Eddard. He's named for Ned, just like Edric Storm. If I remember correctly, he even says so himself.

Robert/Robb/Sweetrobin is another example of these regional spellings. Or Brynden/Brandon. It's a theme. Northmen and Ironborn prefer a and o as vocals in male surnames, Southerners replace them with e, i and y.

Thats possible, but not necessarily true. Not even likely true by our own world, as the etymology of Edrick and Eddard is very different. They are not just regional differences.

In other words, this is just making shit up to support one case or other. They have different names, but the same nickname.

Note also that Ned Stark should be held in huge regard by the Daynes regardless of Ashara.

He returned Dawn to them, their unique and legendary artifact that their whole House history revolves around. He didn't need to do that. That was massive.

[Ygrain]

Were did you read that? It is not on the wiki.

In the books. One passage is the one corbon has pointed out, and the other goes:

“You need to come south,” Robert told him. “You need a taste of summer before it flees. In Highgarden there are fields of golden roses that stretch away as far as the eye can see. The fruits are so ripe they explode in your mouth—melons, peaches, fireplums, you’ve never tasted such sweetness. You’ll see, I brought you some. Even at Storm’s End, with that good wind off the bay, the days are so hot you can barely move. And you ought to see the towns, Ned! Flowers everywhere, the markets bursting with food, the summerwines so cheap and so good that you can get drunk just breathing the air. Everyone is fat and drunk and rich.” He laughed and slapped his own ample stomach a thump. “And the girls, Ned!” he exclaimed, his eyes sparkling. “I swear, women lose all modesty in the heat. They swim naked in the river, right beneath the castle. Even in the streets, it’s too damn hot for wool or fur, so they go around in these short gowns, silk if they have the silver and cotton if not, but it’s all the same when they start sweating and the cloth sticks to their skin, they might as well be naked.” The king laughed happily.

Robert Baratheon had always been a man of huge appetites, a man who knew how to take his pleasures. That was not a charge anyone could lay at the door of Eddard Stark.

As for the rest of your post, corbon has already said what I would have.

Edric is just the regional spelling of Eddard. He's named for Ned, just like Edric Storm. If I remember correctly, he even says so himself.

I recall neither saying that, can you provide a quote?

Robert/Robb/Sweetrobin is another example of these regional spellings. Or Brynden/Brandon. It's a theme. Northmen and Ironborn prefer a and o as vocals in male surnames, Southerners replace them with e, i and y.

You mean vowels, I suppose, and first names.

However, Edric is NOT a regional spelling of Eddard, the same as Edwin is not a regional spelling of Edward. Different names with the same root.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Were did you read that? It is not on the wiki.

While we are working very hard on making the wiki a good and reliable source, we're not all there yet. So you can easily use the wiki to look stuff up, but instead of argueing "the wiki states that...", look at the source the wiki uses for a statement, go to said chapter, and quote the text from the books. If you have the books in another language than english, paraphrase what the book says there.

The argument "it's not on the wiki..." well, the wiki is written by editors, and they simply have to choose what to put on there.. So yeah, not every little detail will be on there, nor shall it ever be :) We've got the books for that ;)

[rozemarijn]

While we are working very hard on making the wiki a good and reliable source, we're not all there yet. So you can easily use the wiki to look stuff up, but instead of argueing "the wiki states that...", look at the source the wiki uses for a statement, go to said chapter, and quote the text from the books. If you have the books in another language than english, paraphrase what the book says there.

The argument "it's not on the wiki..." well, the wiki is written by editors, and they simply have to choose what to put on there.. So yeah, not every little detail will be on there, nor shall it ever be :) We've got the books for that ;)

It was not an argument, please ... no lecture. I could not find a reference to that quote on the wiki and you can't expect me to know the books by heart. There was no context, nothing, how was I supposed to find it in those 5000 pages?

The quote does not even mention Brandon ... Really, all you have to confirm his character is:

1.lady Dustin who I suspect has the same opinions about the use of the female body as Cersei. Ergo: she has seduced him to be the next lady Stark,it failed, and she is not open about it, who would? It is not because you say you are an innocent maiden you are one... If you carefully read her story you can read through the lines.

2. An interpretation of something Ned said about Brandon which I still read differently. Why can't he be bitter about the fact that he didn't want it all? That is so Ned.

3. The interpretation of 'Wolf blood' which may have nothing to do with sex but only a hot temper.

[Ygrain]

It was not an argument, please ... no lecture. I could not find a reference to that quote on the wiki and you can't expect me to know the books by heart. There was no context, nothing, how was I supposed to find it in those 5000 pages?

The quote does not even mention Brandon ... Really, all you have to confirm his character is:

1.lady Dustin who I suspect has the same opinions about the use of the female body as Cersei. Ergo: she has seduced him to be the next lady Stark,it failed, and she is not open about it, who would? It is not because you say you are an innocent maiden you are one... If you carefully read her story you can read through the lines.

2. An interpretation of something Ned said about Brandon which I still read differently. Why can't he be bitter about the fact that he didn't want it all? That is so Ned.

3. The interpretation of 'Wolf blood' which may have nothing to do with sex but only a hot temper.

You suspect... any textual proof to back it? Unlike Cersei who never cared for anyone, lady Dustin seems to have been fond of Brandon

Also, ask yourself this: In the beginning, we have a rumour that Ned and Ashara were an item, then we supposedly get a confirmation from the young Dayne who, however, talks about a romantic involvement between Ned and Ashara and a physical one between Ned and Wylla, and then we learn that she had a child out of wedlock and that there is some connection between her dishonour, Harrenhal and a Stark - and in the same book, we learn of Brandon's sexual conduct with another high-born maiden. Why are these pieces of information there?

Indeed, wolf blood in the sense that Ned uses it has primarily nothing to do with sexual behaviour, it describes inclination to rashness, irresponsibility, breaking social norms - but what kind of sexual behaviour do you think these people exhibit? Might they have sex with someone they are not supposed to, in circumstances they are not supposed to? If you think the answer is "no", then there is really nothing to talk about.

[corbon]

It was not an argument, please ... no lecture. I could not find a reference to that quote on the wiki and you can't expect me to know the books by heart. There was no context, nothing, how was I supposed to find it in those 5000 pages?

If you aren't willing to trust when people indicate quotes (and fair enough, things are often paraphrased wrong and there are some outright liars about) then a little googling with reasonable checks usually helps.

In this case a simple search of [never the boy he was Ned] has the top two items as being a westeros.org chapter summary and westeros.org wiki entry (heck, the quote is right there on Ned's wiki entry) and you can easily see without even leaving the google page that they are clearly quotes from the text. To be fair though, Ygraine misquoted slightly with an extra word or two in there, meaning the search wouldn't have worked so well.

More importantly, perhaps instead of continuing to argue a bad position after being shown textual quotes that you didn't know, you might reassess your position in light of those quotes?

The quote does not even mention Brandon ... Really, all you have to confirm his character is:

Is it your position that Brandon never slept with Lady Dustin?

If he slept with her at all, for any reason, then he has a history of sleeping with unmarried virgin noblewomen and not marying them, even if that history is just 1 woman.

As to Ned, the quotes have been provided, both from Robert and Ned's own thoughts, that clearly show that such a thing would be very much out of character.

1.lady Dustin who I suspect has the same opinions about the use of the female body as Cersei. Ergo: she has seduced him to be the next lady Stark,it failed, and she is not open about it, who would? It is not because you say you are an innocent maiden you are one... If you carefully read her story you can read through the lines.

2. An interpretation of something Ned said about Brandon which I still read differently. Why can't he be bitter about the fact that he didn't want it all? That is so Ned.

3. The interpretation of 'Wolf blood' which may have nothing to do with sex but only a hot temper.

1. What we have in the text is that Brandon had her virginity and a whole lot more without ever even being betrothed to her. And the way she speaks of him, her personal experience, ties in with his description from other sources and his other actions.

Ned bitterly says everything was for Brandon (entitlement?). He was bigger than Ned, better looking, a better swordsman and heir to everything. He always knew what to do (right or wrong) and did it.

Ned specifically says his name with bitterness. Its right there in the next despite your denial.

Brandon's ride to KL and calling Rhaegar out to die was monumentally stupid with no hope for any positive outcome. Wild.

Hoster Tully called him a gallant fool.

GRRM said that Brandon may very well have left behind some little snows in the various places he visited, just no legitimate sons.

He was known as the Wild Wolf.

Lady Dustin says he "liked a bloody sword" and "took what he wanted".

Thats "all" we have confirming his character.

But 'you suspect' (with no textual foundation that says she initiated it) young Miss Dustin Ryswell seduced innocent Brandon Stark and that trumps everything above?

2. So even though Ned explicitly puts a bitter twist on his mouth and the exact next word out of it is "Brandon" his bitterness is not about Brandon at all...

3. Right, so a hot tempered person with 'wild' ways and an actual (socially unacceptable) sexual history with an unmarried young noblewoman is no more likely to be sexually involved with an unmarried young noblewoman than a shy young man with a strict personal honour code who 'was never the boy he was' and could never be the recipient of a charge of "knowing how to take his carnal pleasures".

These are your arguments?

[corbon]

However, Edric is NOT a regional spelling of Eddard, the same as Edwin is not a regional spelling of Edward. Different names with the same root.

In our world, Edric comed from Old English ead "rich, blessed" and ric "ruler".

Edward which Eddard is most likely related to, comes from the Old English elements ead "rich, blessed" and weard "guard".

Both from behindthename.com

Eddard is listed at babynames.com as the americanised (GoT reference) wealthy guard meaning same as Edward.

They are not regional spelling differences of the same name.

[Grape Jackanape]

And no one notices that Elias child was dead and then suddenly alive? The handmaidens? The multiple maesters?

Also, the scenario you describe you effectively ruin every single chance for any future child of Elias to ever sit the throne.

Elia would have had no reason to lie about her child..

Oh, I'll freely admit it's a crackpot notion with more holes than my socks, but I'm so very curious about Elia & can't help but wonder about her impressions & experiences during that timeframe.

I mean, put yourself in her shoes. Your father-in-law has been behaving very strangely since his return from Duskendale. Your husband has been reading various scrolls & writing to his relative on the Wall, & speaking about destiny and what that means for his martial prowess. I mean, it's not exactly sane and rational around the Red Keep. As princess, it's kind of your JOB to produce royal heirs, & your first child turns out to be a girl. Gulp. Hubby crowns another woman @ history's biggest tourney, & after you almost die delivering his son, he says "There must be one more!" at the conclusion of some crazy talk. Gulp, indeed.

[rozemarijn]

And no one notices that Elias child was dead and then suddenly alive? The handmaidens? The multiple maesters?

Also, the scenario you describe you effectively ruin every single chance for any future child of Elias to ever sit the throne.

Elia would have had no reason to lie about her child..

The real Aegon did not have to die. Elia and her children are kept close to Aerys as hostages for Dorne. But those two children are the heirs of the throne. Perhaps Aerys, or Elia herself, or someone else thought it wise not to put all the eggs in the same basket. Like even nowadays a king and his heir cannot be in the same vehicle.

That is why she would have done it. Little Aegon would be safe somewhere, no one would know since he was supposed to be in the Red Keep.

Nor Elia, nor Aerys would ever suspect everyone who knew about the scheme would end up dead, and no one would know the real Aegon was still alive. Eddard was shocked by the death of the children and Elia, which means it was not that predictable. Only political determined people such as Tywin, could have foreseen the children would die. And not even Tywin thought it was essential Elia died.

Therefor, the fake Aegon was quite safe. Even if the Targaryens lost and the Red Keep was taken they would expect the children and Elia to be taken captive. Elia would only have to claim the child was a fake and the fake child would be safe. The Targaryens would have an heir outside the grasp of the rebellions, and Elia to vouch for this. They made a big miscalculation there, but if you consider all the reactions, even Tywins , upon the deaths, everyone agrees it was not well handled. How could you predict/suspect such a thing?

I think not everyone in the scheme suspected the children would die. Someone as Varys would, but Elia would not suspect it, neither Ashara. Remember: Ned did not consider it necessary and was shocked! It seemed a smart idea to Elia snd Ashara to make sure little Aegon could not be held hostage and the Targaryen supporters could keep up the fight: three different heirs were spread over the country and the rebellions had to get them all.

So Elia risked nothing. Aerys risked his life when captured, but she certainly did not. She knew Aegon was fake so why would she 'lose the chance of her child upon the iron throne'? She increased every chance for her child to keep him hidden.

To make such a scheme work you need a convincing Targaryen baby, ergo a baby with purple eyes. Luckily, the only other family with that feature has a baby, a secret bastard one. The story was spread that the bastard child of Ashara was a stillborn daughter. My guess is they spread a story as opposite as they could to erase any suspicion: the child was a boy that lived and was brought to Kings Landing. Later a different version of te facts: a boy taken by Eddard spread. Why so many stories? Why so different stories?