Jump to content

Doctor Who Series 8; The time of the man that stops the monsters (v2)


Jon's Queen Consort

Recommended Posts

Just to continue our discussion about DW series 8 and more.




Milady: I guess the thing that hatched is like one of those little things thateven clingones are afraid of...those little cute things that are born pregnant, forgot the name.


Tribbles? Quite a time saver :D


Link to comment
Share on other sites

So, thinking about last night's episode a little more:

I feel that the point the writer might have been trying to make was, it's wrong to pass off important decisions to other people. Thus, the Doctor was wrong for passing the buck to Clara, Courtney and Lundvik: but Clara was also wrong for asking the people of Earth. It's when she faces up to the decision that she does the right thing.

I like this interpretation at least in part because it changes the clumsy abortion metaphor a bit and makes the message 'everyone should choose for themselves' instead of 'it's wrong to kill an unborn creature, OK?' But even if this was the point, it was done very, very badly, because there is no way that asking billions of people to make a huge moral decision and then just blowing their collective opinions off in favour of your own feelings is praiseworthy. It would have worked if Clara had tried to pass the buck to Lundvik but then had second thoughts, for example.

As it is: Clara comes out of the episode looking entitled, arrogant, whiny and hypocritical. This is the woman who tells the Doctor she is his teacher, and the first time he asks her to take responsibility (admittedly in the most offensive and patronising way possible), she complains about him not taking the hard decision for her, tries to pass the responsibility on to other people, takes it back when they give her the answer she didn't want, then flips out at the Doctor over the whole deal because he should have just told everyone what to do while she sat there patting herself on the back about how she was really the grown-up in their relationship.

Honestly, I would love to think that what's going to happen is that Clara is going to realise what an enormous jerk she was in this episode and apologises to the Doctor, but sadly I suspect the reverse is more likely.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

(admittedly in the most offensive and patronising way possible),

I can see why he was patronising but I cannot see why he was offensive. I was feeling that he tried to show them how difficult it is to be him and having all those annoying humans nagging him about silly thing. "You believe that I am not special, you do this you do that Yada yada yada" Something like trying to put them in his shoes.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just to continue our discussion about DW series 8 and more.

Milady: I guess the thing that hatched is like one of those little things thateven clingones are afraid of...those little cute things that are born pregnant, forgot the name.

Tribbles? Quite a time saver :D

Yes I was talking about those little things,thank you Milady :)

I can see why he was patronising but I cannot see why he was offensive. I was feeling that he tried to show them how difficult it is to be him and having all those annoying humans nagging about inconsiderable reasons. Something like trying to be in his shoes.

But he didn't. Being in his shoes is having all the information when confronted with the decision. He deliberately left out parts and then acted like he would have known what to do all along. well duh when you know the outcome.

As it is: Clara comes out of the episode looking entitled, arrogant, whiny and hypocritical. This is the woman who tells the Doctor she is his teacher, and the first time he asks her to take responsibility (admittedly in the most offensive and patronising way possible), she complains about him not taking the hard decision for her, tries to pass the responsibility on to other people, takes it back when they give her the answer she didn't want, then flips out at the Doctor over the whole deal because he should have just told everyone what to do while she sat there patting herself on the back about how she was really the grown-up in their relationship.

Good points. The only thing I think is that she didn't complain about him not taking the hard decision for her but not being there for her to support her while she was making the hard decision (kind of like abortion metaphor with father in the picture) and later coming to pat her on the back with information that could have saved her the trouble in the first place. At least that's how I saw it...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm just curious as to how the people in the opposite hemisphere felt, knowing that their views were irrelevant as the moon couldn't see them

That was my first thought when they suggested the solution. Also how many people were listening at that moment? How many heard?

In the light of the last episode :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have to agree with those who think this episode was a mess. Pretty nonsensical even by DW standards.



The one thing I really didn't get was Clara's reaction and her speech at the end. Okay, she was upset because the Doctor left and left the decision to her, the student, and the astronaut lady. I guess she just felt that the Doctor is obligated to solve all problems. It seems like she wasn't willing to consider any greater motives that the Doctor might have.



I guess I just didn't see what the Doctor did as being deserving of that reaction. Of course, that might be because I am much more like this Doctor than I am like Clara.


Link to comment
Share on other sites

I can see why he was patronising but I cannot see why he was offensive.

I'd be bloody offended if anyone told me they were taking the 'training wheels' off: particularly coming from an older man to a younger woman, it's implying that you are an infant. Yes, the Doctor is unimaginably older than Clara. But that remark was rubbing her face in that fact, and that's offensive.

In case I come off as wholly hating the episode, I should say there was some stuff I liked. I loved the Doctor doing his gravity test with the yo-yo. The Doctor's response to the threat of being shot was great too, and suggests that maybe he has no regeneration limit this time. Danny's scene with Clara at the end was the most I've liked Danny so far. Visually, the episode was terrific. So there were some pluses. But many minuses...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'd be bloody offended if anyone told me they were taking the 'training wheels' off: particularly coming from an older man to a younger woman, it's implying that you are an infant. Yes, the Doctor is unimaginably older than Clara. But that remark was rubbing her face in that fact, and that's offensive.

I think that it was more about his way of saying it that what he said. I don't think that the meaning was so offensive. I think that some companions were needing a wake up call like that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'd be bloody offended if anyone told me they were taking the 'training wheels' off: particularly coming from an older man to a younger woman, it's implying that you are an infant. Yes, the Doctor is unimaginably older than Clara. But that remark was rubbing her face in that fact, and that's offensive.

In case I come off as wholly hating the episode, I should say there was some stuff I liked. I loved the Doctor doing his gravity test with the yo-yo. The Doctor's response to the threat of being shot was great too, and suggests that maybe he has no regeneration limit this time. Danny's scene with Clara at the end was the most I've liked Danny so far. Visually, the episode was terrific. So there were some pluses. But many minuses...

Well, it's only really offensive if you don't in fact spend your life letting the Doctor make momentous judgements for humanity and fall apart the minute he steps aside and lets you handle one.

I mean, I can see it being offensive if we're talking about the Clara who went around and saved the Doctor in every timeline, but the Clara who collapsed here kinda has to agree that there might be something

If I wasn't filled with such disdain for everything in this episode I might be willing to accept that it was tone deaf and callous but I am so I won't :)

(Seriously, there are a bunch of disappointing and inconsistent episodes littered around Moffat's run but this was actually annoying in a very real sense. Is this how Voyager fans feel? :P)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

He is contradictory character thought. He nags about annoying humans and how they need to take their training wheels off and yet out of all more intelligent and wiser species in whole of space and time he always chooses them as companions.


Link to comment
Share on other sites

The one thing I really didn't get was Clara's reaction and her speech at the end. Okay, she was upset because the Doctor left and left the decision to her, the student, and the astronaut lady. I guess she just felt that the Doctor is obligated to solve all problems. It seems like she wasn't willing to consider any greater motives that the Doctor might have.

I guess I just didn't see what the Doctor did as being deserving of that reaction. Of course, that might be because I am much more like this Doctor than I am like Clara.

I think it's worth remembering that Clara came within a few seconds of being vapourised by most of Earth's nuclear arsenal and on very short notice had to make a difficult moral decision while an entire planet looked on. Even if she has plenty of experience of odd situations I think she's got to be feeling very stressed and in addition she's also apparently feeling guilty that she almost made the wrong decision. I think it makes sense that she's not exactly thrilled with the Doctor for putting her into that situation especially when he seems very smug about how he was doing the right thing all along. It doesn't help that in every recent interaction we've seen the two having he has been repeatedly insulting towards her and towards her boyfriend. As I said in my previous post, I think the Doctor does have good intentions in all this but he's obviously forgotten a lot of his understanding of human nature if he thinks she's going to be happy about all this.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I also think she was mad because there was no point in putting her trough all of this. Did she do anything wrong so far? Did she ever make wrong decision,hell she was there to make right one with war doctor,she jumped in time line...,in every version of her she died doing the right thing. Why put her trough this? To show how you have it hard,well isn't that why she's with you? Why she stayed? It could have been explained better.


Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yeah, I felt that the Doctor's just leaving the decision with them was off, (why not tell them that bit about creatures rarely destroying their nests when they hatch?), but I also felt that Clara's angry reaction to him was wrong as well. Or at least, she wouldn't have been as mad if Matt Smith had acted in the same way...



Which then makes me realize that perhaps the Doctor acted the way he did because he wasn't happy with how he handled himself in The Beast Below.



In that one, he felt he had no choice to render the space whale braindead, but Amy then figured out the truth and made the right choice before the Doctor could inflict permanent damage on the space whale.



I mean, in Capaldi's first episode, he did a throwaway comment that Clara was no Amy. Maybe he's trying to "fix his mistakes" as he said he would.


Link to comment
Share on other sites

I also think she was mad because there was no point in putting her trough all of this. Did she do anything wrong so far? Did she ever make wrong decision,hell she was there to make right one with war doctor,she jumped in time line...,in every version of her she died doing the right thing. Why put her trough this? To show how you have it hard,well isn't that why she's with you? Why she stayed? It could have been explained better.

It's why I think it was wrong of the Doctor to let it be anyone other than the astronaut's decision. Having Clara make the decision isn't much better than the Doctor doing it (although he knew the outcome - unless he only knew the outcome once it had happened?). Surely it still means he took part because Clara wouldn't have been there to stop the astronaut who was clearly happily going to detonate the bombs? So humanity's amazing future is solely because of "special" Clara.

I still really enjoyed the episode though.

I think it's worth remembering that Clara came within a few seconds of being vapourised by most of Earth's nuclear arsenal

I don't think they gave that enough presence within the episode but that really should have played on her mind. That and the schoolgirl being vaporised as well.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't think they gave that enough presence within the episode but that really should have played on her mind. That and the schoolgirl being vaporised as well.

Yeah, would actually have been more interesting if Clara had actually acted out of self-preservation, and that was the source of her anger: she made the right choice, but only because she didn't want to die. And then the Doctor goes and makes it out as this inspired, big, pivotal moment, making her feel even worse about it. But, like others, I guess this is more likely going to result in the Doctor apologising to her down the road.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

(although he knew the outcome - unless he only knew the outcome once it had happened?).

The latter. This is one of those points I found so clear that I'm genuinely puzzled about how people missed it, but lots of people evidently did, so... maybe it's me. :P

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Did it need to be earth and the moon? Why not another civilization and moon? Would that have impacted the decision making?

Sometimes it feels as though episodes are being put together simply so a line, such as the Doctor not being sure he doesn't have unlimited regenerations now, can be dropped.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yeah, I felt that the Doctor's just leaving the decision with them was off, (why not tell them that bit about creatures rarely destroying their nests when they hatch?), but I also felt that Clara's angry reaction to him was wrong as well. Or at least, she wouldn't have been as mad if Matt Smith had acted in the same way...

Which then makes me realize that perhaps the Doctor acted the way he did because he wasn't happy with how he handled himself in The Beast Below.

In that one, he felt he had no choice to render the space whale braindead, but Amy then figured out the truth and made the right choice before the Doctor could inflict permanent damage on the space whale.

I mean, in Capaldi's first episode, he did a throwaway comment that Clara was no Amy. Maybe he's trying to "fix his mistakes" as he said he would.

This, and factor in his mistakes when intervening in The Waters Of Mars

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...