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My Theory On Aegon Vi (Young Griff) Pt2


Justin Amey

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I'm still convinced that young Griff is Aegon, son of Rhaegar because him a theory of him being anything other than that makes extremely little sense. I was told about that I made up too many scenarios in my last posting so I'll be as simple as possible. Theories are meant to be test until fact and I'm so convince my theory still holds up.



1 (Aegon being the so of Illyrio)


makes absolutely no sense in the world. Why would illyrio Give up his son to a complete stranger (JonCon) to live the life of some one else son of someone he never met (Rhaegar). Aegon would be have the worst case of identity crisis ever. Having that on the throne would be disastrous. Also JonCon would look at those two side by side would instantly could that the boy is Illyrio's son, not Rhaegar.



Now on to the meat of the debate.



2 (Him being a Blackfyre descendent)


"Beware the Mummer's Dragon" and "Black or Red, a dragon is still a dragon" these are the two quote that I keep hearing to prove he a fake.


First quote can easily be translated as "Beware Varys Aegon" and second quote Illyrio was talking about the GC joining Dany not about Aegon's origin.


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  • 1 month later...

Also I know a lot of people want to think that JonCon is delusional to want to believe that the child is real but really isn't, I don't believe that. in one of the Chapters, JonCon clearly had a current disliking and mistrust of Varys and Illyrio now, you really think that Illyrio and Varys coming into his life after five years he would be instantly convinced that child was authentic without some immediate proof. I don't think so!


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I think Jon Connington truly believes that (f)Aegon is legitimately who he is. But whether he is legit or not is anyone's guess. I'm on the fence about it myself; I've read some decent "Blackfyre" theories on the issue. Most of all, I want him to be real. I'd be disappointing for him to turn out to be an imposter.



I question, however, what incentive Varys and Illyrio truly have. Is Varys truly loyal to the Targaryens? And if so, why? What does it matter which House sits on the throne so long as their reign is peaceful? It doesn't make sense that he would protect Aegon away simply out of the kindness of his heart. What are his motivations? Not out of "kindness of children." His "little birds" are supposedly children spies (for their mental pliability and ease at which they can navigate through the secret passage way in KL) that he eventually kills at a certain age. I doubt Illyrio's motivation even more.



There is a theory that Aegon is secretly a Blackfyre and he is involved (knowingly or not) in of a conspiracy to put a Blackfyre on the throne. I'll try to sum up this "Blackfyre" theory the best I can. Some centuries ago, a Targaryen king legitimized one of his bastard children (Daemon Blackfyre), an action which brought dispute to the heir to the Iron Throne. You probably remember "Blackfyre Rebellion" from the books. (I believe there would eventually be several of these Blackfyre Rebellions.) You probably also recall the "Gold Company," one of the most prosperous sell-sword companies in Braavos. The Blackfyres founded and still operate the Gold Company. It's thought that Illyrio and, assumingly, Varys are conspiring with the Gold Company to place a Blackfyre on the throne.



http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/House_Blackfyre


http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Golden_Company


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I think Jon Connington truly believes that (f)Aegon is legitimately who he is. But whether he is legit or not is anyone's guess. I'm on the fence about it myself; I've read some decent "Blackfyre" theories on the issue. Most of all, I want him to be real. I'd be disappointing for him to turn out to be an imposter.

I question, however, what incentive Varys and Illyrio truly have. Is Varys truly loyal to the Targaryens? And if so, why? What does it matter which House sits on the throne so long as their reign is peaceful? It doesn't make sense that he would protect Aegon away simply out of the kindness of his heart. What are his motivations? Not out of "kindness of children." His "little birds" are supposedly children spies (for their mental pliability and ease at which they can navigate through the secret passage way in KL) that he eventually kills at a certain age. I doubt Illyrio's motivation even more.

There is a theory that Aegon is secretly a Blackfyre and he is involved (knowingly or not) in of a conspiracy to put a Blackfyre on the throne. I'll try to sum up this "Blackfyre" theory the best I can. Some centuries ago, a Targaryen king legitimized one of his bastard children (Daemon Blackfyre), an action which brought dispute to the heir to the Iron Throne. You probably remember "Blackfyre Rebellion" from the books. (I believe there would eventually be several of these Blackfyre Rebellions.) You probably also recall the "Gold Company," one of the most prosperous sell-sword companies in Braavos. The Blackfyres founded and still operate the Gold Company. It's thought that Illyrio and, assumingly, Varys are conspiring with the Gold Company to place a Blackfyre on the throne.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/House_Blackfyre

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Golden_Company

I knew someone would ask this question and I have an answer. Ask yourself this: why not? Varys is a hustler fresh out of Pentos asked to serve at the eyes and ears of the king. It would seem very silly of him to go there and serve everyone and anyone except the king. Aerys may/may not have been mad, but he serves nonetheless, that is what serving the realm dictates. PPl say that Varys was disloyal to the Targ for him supposedly snitching on Rhaegar for supposedly trying to depose him. That is the kind of info a king is suppose to know. As for the birds: they know the whole of kings landing inside and out. Anybody finding that kind of knowledge is a gold mine. And it only implied it, it don't mean he really kills them.

As for the Blackfyre theory I am fully aware of it, plz check out my first topic http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/110833-my-theory-on-aegon-vi-young-griff/?view=findpost&p=5828609 It is my explanation of how Aegon being a Blackfyre is far too inaccurate

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I knew someone would ask this question and I have an answer. Ask yourself this: why not? Varys is a hustler fresh out of Pentos asked to serve at the eyes and ears of the king. It would seem very silly of him to go there and serve everyone and anyone except the king. Aerys may/may not have been mad, but he serves nonetheless, that is what serving the realm dictates. PPl say that Varys was disloyal to the Targ for him supposedly snitching on Rhaegar for supposedly trying to depose him. That is the kind of info a king is suppose to know. As for the birds: they know the whole of kings landing inside and out. Anybody finding that kind of knowledge is a gold mine. And it only implied it, it don't mean he really kills them.

As for the Blackfyre theory I am fully aware of it, plz check out my first topic http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/110833-my-theory-on-aegon-vi-young-griff/?view=findpost&p=5828609 It is my explanation of how Aegon being a Blackfyre is far too inaccurate

I think Varys ultimately serves the realm. The realm needs a peaceful ruler, a ruler that doesn't necessarily have to be a Targaryen. Part of me still believes that he is loyal to the Targaryens - maybe he thinks a peaceful rule will ultimately come from a Targaryen.

I think I know what you're referring to when you mention Varys "supposedly snitching on Rhaegar for supposedly trying to depose him [Aerys]." Per a certain theory, Lyanna was the Knight of the Laughing Tree, the latter which Aerys "was certain was his enemy." (http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Knight_of_the_Laughing_Tree)%C2'>not what you're referring to, I'm not sure what you are.

Again, I'm not swayed either way as to whether or not Aegon is an imposter. He does seem legit, and a part of me wants him to be. And he need not be in conflict with Daenerys. They could always end up marrying.

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I think Varys ultimately serves the realm. The realm needs a peaceful ruler, a ruler that doesn't necessarily have to be a Targaryen. Part of me still believes that he is loyal to the Targaryens - maybe he thinks a peaceful rule will ultimately come from a Targaryen.

I think I know what you're referring to when you mention Varys "supposedly snitching on Rhaegar for supposedly trying to depose him [Aerys]." Per a certain theory, Lyanna was the Knight of the Laughing Tree, the latter which Aerys "was certain was his enemy." (not what you're referring to, I'm not sure what you are.

Again, I'm not swayed either way as to whether or not Aegon is an imposter. He does seem legit, and a part of me wants him to be. And he need not be in conflict with Daenerys. They could always end up marrying.

I knew you would say all this ass well, and i have the answer.

Serve the realm all you want to, you still have to serve a house. Varys coming in to Serve Aerys Means he serves house Targaryen, Maester Pycelle Served Lannister. If you are not serving any any house then you are like Littlefinger, burning anyone and everyone to get ahead.

Robert's Rebellion lasted about nine-ten months, in that time Elia could have made preparation for her children in case the worse were to happen, they probably were not expected Aerys to open the door to their doom, but even still he had plenty to get to her to get at least one.

You may not be swayed either way but ask yourself this: what makes more sense to you:

1:Varys running up a flight of stairs, getting the baby though the tunnel smuggling across the sea to safety(I mean he did it for Tyrion)

Or 2: In their in between time, Varys and Illyrio scoured the free cities and found an Aegon look alike that could Convinced people who already knows what the boy should look like, Prays that he grows up to look like should, train em, then present him to a family friend, hopes that he take the bait, and hope the scam hold for well over 10 years!

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An argument against Aegon being legit is that the Golden Company would never, ever support a Targaryen. Recall when Viserys and Daenerys asked for their aid and they laughed in their face. An argument for Aegon being legit is Varys brokering a deal with the Golden Company agreeing that Aegon would marry a female Blackfyre when he regained the throne, joining the two families once again. Perhaps this is why Varys and Illyrio supported only Dany and Viserys until now. The deal took a lot of time and negotiating to finally be agreed upon. (If the latter is true, let's hope he doesn't go Robb-Stark on them.)



I agree with you in that a "mummer's dragon" need not be a "fake dragon."



Physical appearance is also a clue. While Valyrian features are not uncommon in the Free Cities (and I still might use this as an argument for Aegon being fake), Jon Connington, who spent a lot of time with Rhaegar, notices a resemblance between the two. Even Tyrion figured it out, just as Brienne figured out that Gendry was Robert's bastard. Common features are one thing, family resemblance is another.



There is one fact that I can't get over. I don't trust Varys, nor do I consider him trust-worthy. We'll see I suppose.


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Perhaps this is why Varys and Illyrio supported only Dany and Viserys until now.

Quoting myself here, but I just wanted to clarify. Illyrio, and therefore Varys, taking in Dany and Viserys does not make sense if they already had Aegon. And why would they give Daenerys the dragon eggs?

But then again, if my theory of the Golden Company agreeing to support Aegon if he marry a Blackfyre is correct, perhaps they delegated the marriage between Daenerys and Drogo so to ensure that Aegon would not be able to marry Daenerys instead. I would assume that Aegon marrying Daenerys would be a potential threat to the agreement, if said negotiation did occur.

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An argument against Aegon being legit is that the Golden Company would never, ever support a Targaryen. Recall when Viserys and Daenerys asked for their aid and they laughed in their face. An argument for Aegon being legit is Varys brokering a deal with the Golden Company agreeing that Aegon would marry a female Blackfyre when he regained the throne, joining the two families once again. Perhaps this is why Varys and Illyrio supported only Dany and Viserys until now. The deal took a lot of time and negotiating to finally be agreed upon. (If the latter is true, let's hope he doesn't go Robb-Stark on them.)

I agree with you in that a "mummer's dragon" need not be a "fake dragon."

Physical appearance is also a clue. While Valyrian features are not uncommon in the Free Cities (and I still might use this as an argument for Aegon being fake), Jon Connington, who spent a lot of time with Rhaegar, notices a resemblance between the two. Even Tyrion figured it out, just as Brienne figured out that Gendry was Robert's bastard. Common features are one thing, family resemblance is another.

There is one fact that I can't get over. I don't trust Varys, nor do I consider him trust-worthy. We'll see I suppose.

I discuss the GC in my first topic as well. The Blackfyre regime vowed to kill all Targs to seat a Blackfyre on the throne. You bringing UP THAT Viserys and Dany visited the GC before, if there was ever a time to kill Targs, that would have been the time, so why didn't they. Viserys and Dany were very young inexperience (hell still is 17 and still inexperience) to command armies, so was Aegon they all are untested definitely not ready to take an army anywhere. They had to be waiting for them to be more mature and capable.

As for Aegon marrying a Blackfyre there has not been any solid proof that there are any living Blackfyre just wild speculation. Even in the chapter in ADWD The Griffion's Roost the GC was still advocating Aegon marrying Dany not even anyone in Dorne.

As for trusting Varys, Yeah his trust-worthiness is iffy, but one thing speak volumes to me; personally killing Keven Lannisters to Sabatoge their alliance.

Quoting myself here, but I just wanted to clarify. Illyrio, and therefore Varys, taking in Dany and Viserys does not make sense if they already had Aegon. And why would they give Daenerys the dragon eggs?

But then again, if my theory of the Golden Company agreeing to support Aegon if he marry a Blackfyre is correct, perhaps they delegated the marriage between Daenerys and Drogo so to ensure that Aegon would not be able to marry Daenerys instead. I would assume that Aegon marrying Daenerys would be a potential threat to the agreement, if said negotiation did occur.

They couldn't just Parade Aegon all Whatnot, everybody think he's dead If was known he was alive, Robert would start asking question, question that would quickly be flung at Varys. Better that only select few know about Aegon until the time right.

Getting Dany to marrying Drogo was to get army big enough to challege to whole of Westeros, once they were all exhausted Aegon would swoop in and liberate Westeros from the Dorthraki, get Dany and be hero. Oblivious that plan didn't run. To me until i'm shown solid proof of a living Blackfyes, I don't believe there are any living Blackfyes.

And just to stop you right before you get ahead Quaithe giving a message not to trust Dark flames or blackfyre could easy be talking about either Moqorro the Red priest on board Victorian Greyjoy's ship, Or the GC itself. She was already Denied by them before so now them wanting to join now would be iffy to her

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I discuss the GC in my first topic as well. The Blackfyre regime vowed to kill all Targs to seat a Blackfyre on the throne. You bringing UP THAT Viserys and Dany visited the GC before, if there was ever a time to kill Targs, that would have been the time, so why didn't they. Viserys and Dany were very young inexperience (hell still is 17 and still inexperience) to command armies, so was Aegon they all are untested definitely not ready to take an army anywhere. They had to be waiting for them to be more mature and capable.

As for Aegon marrying a Blackfyre there has not been any solid proof that there are any living Blackfyre just wild speculation. Even in the chapter in ADWD The Griffion's Roost the GC was still advocating Aegon marrying Dany not even anyone in Dorne.

As for trusting Varys, Yeah his trust-worthiness is iffy, but one thing speak volumes to me; personally killing Keven Lannisters to Sabatoge their alliance.

They couldn't just Parade Aegon all Whatnot, everybody think he's dead If was known he was alive, Robert would start asking question, question that would quickly be flung at Varys. Better that only select few know about Aegon until the time right.

Getting Dany to marrying Drogo was to get army big enough to challege to whole of Westeros, once they were all exhausted Aegon would swoop in and liberate Westeros from the Dorthraki, get Dany and be hero. Oblivious that plan didn't run. To me until i'm shown solid proof of a living Blackfyes, I don't believe there are any living Blackfyes.

And just to stop you right before you get ahead Quaithe giving a message not to trust Dark flames or blackfyre could easy be talking about either Moqorro the Red priest on board Victorian Greyjoy's ship, Or the GC itself. She was already Denied by them before so now them wanting to join now would be iffy to her

But wouldn't they shun Aegon as well if they shunned Dany and Viserys? Viserys could've possibly pissed them off, as he was apt to do, but there is too much bad history between the Blackfyres and Targaryens already.

If the GC advocates for Aegon marrying Dany, that makes me suspicious. If Aegon is a Targaryen, why should it matter who he marries, other than for military or political purposes. Why not Dorne, but Dany who is miles and a sea away? Also the Blackfyre name is extinct, but it continues through the female line.

There's something about the plan to marry Dany to Drogo that doesn't sit well with me. If even Jorah (a Westerosi) was prudent enough to know that the Dothraki are not naval, why not Illyrio? Drogo agreeing to sail for Westeros only occurred after a string of coincidences. Without the attempt of assassination of Dany, I think it's very likely that Drogo would have never crossed the sea over to Westeros. It was taking a great leap of faith to marry Dany to Drogo. A more prudent choice with a more certain outcome might have been for Dany to marry someone in the GC, i.e. a Blackfyre - which, if Aegon is fake, she might end up doing. -- Actually, regardless who Aegon is, the marriage between Dany and Drogo doesn't seem like a wise decision.

You make a good point of the "mummer's dragon" referring to Moroqqo, or I suppose, rather, Victarion. I might be wrong, but isn't "mummer" included in the book also under context of bewitching or tricking someone? That is, blowing the Horn to subdue a dragon. I've also wondered if the "mummer's dragon" were not Stannis. But if Quaithe is hinting at not trusting the GC, I feel that would include JC and Aegon as well, as the Aegon plot is also their own. Aegon sails to Westeros with a fleet of GC men at the end of ADWD.

I have doubts about Aegon being real AND fake. It's entertaining to take an in depth look at both sides, and I'm enjoying this discussion with you!

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Also, I've been reading up on this theory elsewhere since our discussion. There is a theory that Illyrio swapped Aegon again with yet another child, his own son with his second wife, who had Valyrian-like features and who supposedly was a Blackfyre. Under that theory, Varys did attempt to save Aegon's life from KL with a baby swap and does assume that the "Aegon" with Jon Connington is Aegon Targaryen.


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But wouldn't they shun Aegon as well if they shunned Dany and Viserys? Viserys could've possibly pissed them off, as he was apt to do, but there is too much bad history between the Blackfyres and Targaryens already.

If the GC advocates for Aegon marrying Dany, that makes me suspicious. If Aegon is a Targaryen, why should it matter who he marries, other than for military or political purposes. Why not Dorne, but Dany who is miles and a sea away? Also the Blackfyre name is extinct, but it continues through the female line.

There's something about the plan to marry Dany to Drogo that doesn't sit well with me. If even Jorah (a Westerosi) was prudent enough to know that the Dothraki are not naval, why not Illyrio? Drogo agreeing to sail for Westeros only occurred after a string of coincidences. Without the attempt of assassination of Dany, I think it's very likely that Drogo would have never crossed the sea over to Westeros. It was taking a great leap of faith to marry Dany to Drogo. A more prudent choice with a more certain outcome might have been for Dany to marry someone in the GC, i.e. a Blackfyre - which, if Aegon is fake, she might end up doing. -- Actually, regardless who Aegon is, the marriage between Dany and Drogo doesn't seem like a wise decision.

You make a good point of the "mummer's dragon" referring to Moroqqo, or I suppose, rather, Victarion. I might be wrong, but isn't "mummer" included in the book also under context of bewitching or tricking someone? That is, blowing the Horn to subdue a dragon. I've also wondered if the "mummer's dragon" were not Stannis. But if Quaithe is hinting at not trusting the GC, I feel that would include JC and Aegon as well, as the Aegon plot is also their own. Aegon sails to Westeros with a fleet of GC men at the end of ADWD.

I have doubts about Aegon being real AND fake. It's entertaining to take an in depth look at both sides, and I'm enjoying this discussion with you!

Every year the Dorthraki travels to all Free cities Demanding tribute as means of leaving them all alone. To put it frankly Nobody in Essos like the Dorthraki. Uniting all the tribe then sending them To westeros to wreck havok would killing several birds with one stone.

The Targ always inbred with themselves, Even the blackfyre Came about about by inbredding nothing suspictous there.

1. They would forever be rid of Dorthraki (All free cities would not have to give up tons and tons of food to keep them happy.

2. then would weaken all traitors to the Targ

3 Aegon would swooping looking like a hero and he get his birthright with little opposition.

Varys and illyrio help each other with them problems resulting in deeper tides between land Win/ Win for the Targs.

Also, I've been reading up on this theory elsewhere since our discussion. There is a theory that Illyrio swapped Aegon again with yet another child, his own son with his second wife, who had Valyrian-like features and who supposedly was a Blackfyre. Under that theory, Varys did attempt to save Aegon's life from KL with a baby swap and does assume that the "Aegon" with Jon Connington is Aegon Targaryen.

You must have not read read this Topic Regarding Aegon being the son of Illyrio. It make little to no sense at all.

Why would illyrio Give up his son to a complete stranger (JonCon) to live the life of some one else son of someone he never met (Rhaegar). Aegon would be have the worst case of identity crisis ever. Having that on the throne would be disastrous. Also JonCon would look at those two side by side would instantly could that the boy is Illyrio's son, not Rhaegar.

Also Illyrio 2nd wife had blue eyes and gold hair with silver streak in it. The Blackfyre line starts back 90 years ago, if Illyrio wife was in face a blackfyre descended, That just goes to show you just how impure there line has gotten. The odd of another impure marriage producing a purple eyed, Full hair boy that looks like Rhaegar

Near everybody and their mommas are confident in R+L=J despite Jon not looking absolutely nothing like Rhaegar, well then it has to work both ways.

Theories are meant to be tested and Hearing so what Aegon is or isn't with not even an inch of logically sense, I have no choice but to believe the story Aegon gave Tyrion.

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Also I know a lot of people want to think that JonCon is delusional to want to believe that the child is real but really isn't, I don't believe that. in one of the Chapters, JonCon clearly had a current disliking and mistrust of Varys and Illyrio now, you really think that Illyrio and Varys coming into his life after five years he would be instantly convinced that child was authentic without some immediate proof. I don't think so!

I don't think such proof exists and if it did I'd wonder why no mention of it was made to Tyrion. This isn't a universe of magical royal birthmarks to prove the royal bloodline, and any trinkets that Elia might have supposedly sent with the baby could have actually been smuggled out of the palace by Varys without a baby. I can't think what would be proof the baby was authentic.

An argument against Aegon being legit is that the Golden Company would never, ever support a Targaryen. Recall when Viserys and Daenerys asked for their aid and they laughed in their face. An argument for Aegon being legit is Varys brokering a deal with the Golden Company agreeing that Aegon would marry a female Blackfyre when he regained the throne, joining the two families once again. Perhaps this is why Varys and Illyrio supported only Dany and Viserys until now. The deal took a lot of time and negotiating to finally be agreed upon. (If the latter is true, let's hope he doesn't go Robb-Stark on them.)

A former second-in-command of the GC went off to raise a boy he believed to be a Targaryen. Many of the other captains in the company have no Westerosi blood at all (inc. spymaster, paymaster, captain of archers), or are recent exiles like Flowers, I can't think why they would care one way or another whether somebody they were fighting for was Targaryen as long as they got something out of the contract.

Viserys was a penniless beggar asking the GC to invade a united and peaceful realm ruled by a man whose one skill was fighting wars, of course they laughed in his face. Aegon had the backing of an wealthy merchant, and when the GC agreed to follow him in attacking an already war-weary and disunited realm they did so largely because of the potential spoils (as many of them outright said in the scene in which they agreed).

Physical appearance is also a clue. While Valyrian features are not uncommon in the Free Cities (and I still might use this as an argument for Aegon being fake), Jon Connington, who spent a lot of time with Rhaegar, notices a resemblance between the two. Even Tyrion figured it out, just as Brienne figured out that Gendry was Robert's bastard. Common features are one thing, family resemblance is another.

There is one fact that I can't get over. I don't trust Varys, nor do I consider him trust-worthy. We'll see I suppose.

Tyrion was raised mainly at Casterly Rock and maybe ten when the Targayens were exiled, if he knew what Targaryens looked like it was probably from meeting non-Targaryens with the Valyrian look. He also probably solved the mystery with the help of context clues, a exiled red-headed Westerosi lord in his mid-30s raising a boy more important than him would be a big clue.

Brienne spent time with mid-20s Renly then a few months later saw 16 year-old Gendry and saw the resemblance. That is hardly the same as Jon C comparing Aegon to a 17 year old memory - especially when he watched Aegon grow from a 6 year-old (who would not have looked like adult Rhaegar) and his memory may have subconsciously remodelled Rhaegar to more closely match Aegon.

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I suppose he could still be the mummers dragon even though he is real.

But he's not dude.

The Jets will win the Super Bowl before Aegon VI sits the IT as a legit targaryan.

I'm sticking to my opinion like glue, beside I'm a mixed martial arts i know very little of football and even less of the jets.

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  • 3 weeks later...

The GC welcomed Jon Connington into their ranks, when he is a known Targ loyalist. He rose up to be heir apparent before he went away. I don’t think the GC have a big problem with the Targs anymore, they’re just another sellsword company, but one with affiliations with Westeros and a bunch of Westerosi lords that want their lands back.



Also consider that if Jon Connington could join the GC and rise through the ranks, a lot of other exiled Targ loyalists would’ve done the same. They would look much differently upon an Aegon or a Dany (or even a Viserys if he had still been alive), than the GC commanders would have when Viserys first went to them for assistance.

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