38 replies to this topic

[Spah Getti]

I would like to see how the Night's Watch came about, why it was deemed necessary, and so forth. It would also be nice to learn about how the wildlings got north of the Wall. (Were they always there? Did they flee unjust rulers? Are they descendants of the Night's Watch and runaway women?) Also, it would be nice to know about non-human races north of the Wall.

Thanks!

-Spah Getti

Edited by Spah Getti, 05 September 2006 - 10:47 PM.

[Ran]

Interesting. We do plan a history section, and maybe we'll be able to reveal a bit more about the founding of the Night's Watch.

Edited by Ran, 09 September 2006 - 11:01 AM.

[Maid Sansa]

And the grumkins and the snarks, too, maybe? ;)

[Ran]

Well, maybe in a bestiary of legendary creatures beyond the Wall or some such... ;)

[Lyanna Stark-Targaryen]

I'd love to know the origins (and the eventual decline) of the Watch. I'd also like know why Good Queen Allysanne granted the gifts (I know they were noble and such, anything else?).

[Ran]

I think we know Alysanne convinced Jaehaerys to grant the New Gift because the Watch was starting to not be able to support itself on the Old Gift alone. The tradition with the Old Gift was that the Watch sustained itself by working it , but now there were too few members of the Watch to do that successfully and they needed some other means of support. So, the New Gift was given to them, from which they could levy taxes on the people who lived there (the Old Gift was pretty much inhabited only by the Night's Watch).

Unfortunately, the failing of the Watch meant that more raiders were starting to get through, and the New Gift proved to be a prime wildling raiding territory because of its proximity to the Wall... so the New Gift has become depopulated as well, and provides little sustenance.

[ser Chadrick]

 Ran, on Oct 3 2006, 03.46, said:

The tradition with the Old Gift was that the Watch sustained itself by working it , but now there were too few members of the Watch to do that successfully... Unfortunately, the failing of the Watch meant that more raiders were starting to get through, and the New Gift proved to be a prime wildling raiding territory because of its proximity to the Wall... so the New Gift has become depopulated as well, and provides little sustenance.

Isn't it interesting that the whole feudal system died out much the same way? There is a quote I like that goes something like: "In a democracy it ’s your vote that counts; in feudalism, it’s your Count that votes."

[SerShakey]

I haven't read enough into the series to know what the New Gift/Old Gift is (although I'm assuming it's territory granted by the blood of the dragon line...), however, I don't believe the origins of the Night's Watch were to keep the wildings out I'm curious about the supernatural threats from the North, and what explanation GRRM is going to give with regards to their origin and allegiances. I suspect there will be god(s) fighting god(s) (there's some great fantasy theological constructs in Martin's world), a kick-ass, Jon-Snow reincarnation of Azor Ahai (?), and/or the 'three-headed' dragon threat to the Others' southerly invasion in a killer-sweet climax

[Viper89]

for the wildlings werent they just the humans that essentialy lived in the wilds, and were cut of when the wall was raided by the first me and the children of the forest.
as for the nights watch im pretty sure i read that they were men that when the wall was created, after they had with the children driven the white walkers back from there first invasion, just men that were willing to guard the realm of men
although i cant say iv ever seen a detailed account of there origins, manily because the nights watch themsleves dont even really understand this timeline themselves, i remember there being a point were sam is looking into the origions of the white walkers were he cant even be certain that there has been 900+ lord commanders because there are only records for 600 or so....

[Val Dohaeris]

Appropriately enough, 'Braveheart' is on TV...I read somewhere that GRRM'S original inspiration for ASOIF was when he saw Hadrian's Wall in Scotland. Maybe it was a similar case where both the land beyond the Wall and its people were just too difficult to conquer (and there's that small Others problem as well). I can't imagine there would much to desire there anyway in that there's a dearth of arable land and collecting taxes would get you cold coin indeed. As for the origin of the Night's Watch, it's reasonable to suppose that the thousands of men and women it took to build the Wall originally populated its forts and the Old Gift. The Oath and command structure probably developed over centuries.

[Knight Of Laughing Tree]

 Lyanna Stark-Targaryen, on 02 October 2006 - 08:44 PM, said:

I'd love to know the origins (and the eventual decline) of the Watch.

the decline could likely be resolved to being the influx of the annals to the seven kingdoms, given that they were not around during the long night and never knew the true purpose of it, it would likely have been viewed as simply a bunch of guys defending the north from the incursion of wildling and not the last defense against the others. thats what i would think is the cause of the decline of the watch but if there is a different reason then i would definitely like to see it in the book.

[Yakman]

 Knight Of Laughing Tree, on 28 August 2011 - 09:38 PM, said:

the decline could likely be resolved to being the influx of the annals to the seven kingdoms, given that they were not around during the long night and never knew the true purpose of it, it would likely have been viewed as simply a bunch of guys defending the north from the incursion of wildling and not the last defense against the others. thats what i would think is the cause of the decline of the watch but if there is a different reason then i would definitely like to see it in the book.

I do not believe that the decline of the Watch can be attributed to the coming of the Andals. After all, Black Harren's brother had 10,000 men under his command when Aegon came and conquered the 7 kingdoms. That's certainly not an organization in decline.

I should think that the Targaryen conquest is probably the chief reason for the decline of the Watch. The 7 Kingdoms were continuously fighting and feuding, and prisoners were probably given the option of going to the Wall. When the Targaryens took over, the Wars, by and large, ended. After Aegon's victory there were the conflicts against the Faithful, yes, and the Dance of the Dragons, and the Blackfyre Rebellions, but that's pretty much it until Robert's Rebellion. The concentration of power was decidedly in King's Landing, and the wars were not against fellow Kings and Lords, but against rebels and would-be usurpers. There's less reason to be lenient from a Targaryen perspective against Blackfyre's allies than there is for a Stark or Lannister lord to spare the men of a dissatisfied Bolton or Westerling.

Further, this is an organization with a 6,000 year history. Perhaps it had several (dozen?) cycles of decline and resurgence, and its current state is simply a part of that. The Wildlings managed to defeat the Watch on several occasions, but were every time ultimately beaten by the Northmen. The Watch must have been weak for this to occur--a 600 foot high wall is a strong deterrent for all but the most ambitious Kings Beyond the Wall and a weak Watch must be a given for any Wildling adventurer to dare chance his strength against them.

[Black Crow]

This is a DwD spoiler-free version of a post I placed on another thread which I think is relevant to this discussion:

As mentioned in the story, the "castles" are not fortresses but patrol bases to support the rangers who go out beyond the Wall. However if the magic in the Wall is sufficient to prevent the Others from coming through, why bother. Why not just seal it all up and leave them there rather than this constant ranging?

I think this is where we go back to the unreliable oral histories such as Old Nan's tales. Tyrion as I recall mused on how fortunate he was that his ancestors were born on the right side of the Wall, which indicates that it was built where it was for strategic reasons, just like Hadrians Wall, and that the building of it left a faily sizeable human population shut outside. That human population (the Free Folk) will have needed protecting, hence the need for the rangers. Then at some point it all went pear shaped with the Nights King and by the time the fighting was all over and in the process the Free Folk having been ridden over by every rascal on a horse - exactly like the people of the Riverlands are suffering right now - the "friendlies" north of the Wall instead became "unfriendly" and henceforth were regarded as Wildlings. Thus for years the Nights Watch may have been fighting the descendants of those people the original Watch was recruited to protect.

Edited by Black Crow, 31 August 2011 - 03:39 PM.

[gonzoaster11]

<p>I think it's hardly a coincidence that the name is the <u>Nights</u> Watch. What do we know shows up only at night? The NW was created to literally watch the nights for the return of, wait for it, the Others. </p>
<div id="myEventWatcherDiv" style="display:none;"> </div>

[Stefan_Sasse]

Perhaps this piece offers some explanation attempts as well:
http://towerofthehan...ghts/index.html

[Winterfail]

I would like to learn more about the Night's King

[Black Crow]

 Winterfail, on 13 September 2011 - 11:37 PM, said:

I would like to learn more about the Night's King

So would we all because the legends are about as reliable as Grimm's Fairy Tales, but as the truth will obviously impact on the plot we'll just have to wait and see.

[Knight Of Laughing Tree]

 Black Crow, on 15 September 2011 - 11:44 AM, said:

So would we all because the legends are about as reliable as Grimm's Fairy Tales, but as the truth will obviously impact on the plot we'll just have to wait and see.

i find it interesting that if the night king were still counted then jon would be the 999th lord commander, there has to be something to that.

[CrypticWeirwood]

 Knight Of Laughing Tree, on 18 September 2011 - 06:02 PM, said:

i find it interesting that if the night king were still counted then jon would be the 999th lord commander, there has to be something to that.

Which, read upsidedown, makes him the 666th. Ahah! Jon is the great anti-LastHero!

[Griggard]

The decline of the watch 1) the others are gone for over 1000 years ie... the threat is not seen as real.
2) the Targaryan rule .... ie what does a house that controls dragons (whose fire by all accounts kicks Others to the curb) need fear from an others invasion.