Feminism - more of it

[TrackerNeil]

Not necessarily, but the stupidest people are often the loudest.

So feminism is defined by the loudest, stupidest feminists?

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

Why can't we all just be loving, caring people who want the same for everyone. I understand the troubles woman encounter in the work place and such. And truly would like to see what this country was based on come to fruition. But, doesnt labelling yourself a feminist, deter from the values of that? I guess I just don't understand any of it. Because, I was once told that if something you say causes someone discomfort or they feel it sexist, racist and so on. That that's exactly what you are? I can't believe that. And can't remember who said that to me, but I felt they was just a hate monger looking for anything to complain about. I'm not saying that all these ism's aren't a real thing. But shouldn't we as human being be moving towards enlightenment? Where we are all equal and we don't have to put labels to ourselves? We're just all human beings that should try and unite under the same moral codes of treating each other with the same respect and consideration we would want from someone else? I think these labels cause dissention and further separate us as a whole. Just my opinion. Feel free to degrade it and call me a bigot or whatever. Where all just human beings, can't it be left at that?

[Lyanna Stark]

Sigh, why is it so hard to read the description of feminism and learn even the tiniest thing of its history?

It doesn't hurt, you know. Completely free of physical pain, generally available to most people either through the internet or a library. Or this thread and it's previous incarnations.

There is no need to rely on hearsay.

[karaddin]

I love how the onus is always on those working to end the ism to just ignore all the problems and try live equality for ourselves. Guess what, that doesn't work when there are bigots out there actively preventing it. It doesn't work when you aren't fully equal under the law. You want to preach peaceful enlightenment? Talk to the side preventing equality, not the one fighting for it.

[deleted01]

I'm glad you spoke up against an article that is so wrong (based on your quotes of that article). I hope it gets circulated to the same audience who has been exposed to the original article.

The only item I would make a suggestion of is your attempt to classify feminists who might say that looking at women's naked picture is equivalent to raping women with their eyes are typically considered "radical feminists." I get what you're trying to say, but the term "radical" has a specific meaning in the context of feminism as it is the name for one strain of feminism. Also, I think it comes across a little but as throwing one group of feminists under the bus. There are actually some legitimate arguments to be made about violation of a woman's space through ogling and leering. I think a better way to phrase that might be to say that while it is more than likely that some feminists will support that claim, the claim itself is often taken out of context and misunderstood by the people criticizing it. Or, perhaps, to present that it's not necessary to agree with ALL the variants within feminism to agree with the central message of equality, just like one doesn't have to agree with all the court rulings to support fairness in criminal proceedings.

But otherwise, keep up the good work and make your voice heard! :)

ETA:

Ser Scot:

You're surprised? I'm not. The only surprise is that it's Utah and not Arizona.

The student paper did post my response, and it's had a good reception so far. When I shared the ReadWave article on Facebook, I had several editors for the paper (who I used to write for) ask me if I'd be willing to send it in. Which is encouraging, as the first article was full of utter twaddle.

http://theknowledgeplymouth.co.uk/feminism-is-confused-because-you-keep-confusing-it/

Thank you for reading it, and for your comments - there are a few people on here, yourself included, whose opinion I genuinely respect and appreciate. :)

I totally understand what you're saying about the "radical feminism". Damn. I feel like a fool. I'll edit the article on ReadWave, but I can't edit it on the student paper website. I didn't realise they'd posted it already.

[TerraPrime]

Re: Drac

Very awesome that the student newspaper picked up the article! It's always nice to be able to offer a counter-point to the same audience.

But, life being what it is, please be prepared of the backlash and hatemails, and please do not hesitate to report any sort of harassment that will (not may) come your way. Lewis' Law, and all that.

As for that "radical feminists" part, don't worry too much about it on the newspaper front. You might get a chance to clarify later based on reader response. I doubt very much that few people outside of the women's studies specialty will pick up on the difference and your over all tone and content of the article are definitely very positive and pro-equality.

Also, based on my own experience, don't be too surprised if the paper or others ask you to speak/write something for them in the future. It's not easy, contrary to what the haters think, to find people willing to take a stand and put their names on a piece like that.

Finally, much thanks to your praise about my opinions on these matters. I do pat our collective group on our back in having a nice solid group of folks on this board on feminism issues, and I am but one voice out of many, many others who are more articulate and more learned on the issue.

[Lord Toblerone]

We're just all human beings that should try and unite under the same moral codes of treating each other with the same respect and consideration we would want from someone else?

Well, yeah. That's how I try to live my life.

Which means I'm a feminist, and anti-racist, and anti-homophobia, and anti-transphobia, and pro-choice and pro-sex work etc.

[karaddin]

So I meant to link this earlier today, and I suspect most of us have already seen it/been involved in a big long facebook argument about it by now, but a woman decided to film her "interactions" while she walked around NYC in jeans and a t-shirt, and the result was over 100 instances of verbal harassment in a 10 hour window. Some involved high levels of physical intimidation and harassment with one guy following her for over 5 minutes.

Now one angle, and that which was covered on facebook, is just trying to convince men that however well intentioned you are, it's frequently not welcome and comes with a context of volume that you do not know.

Another angle however is that this amount of street harassment seems absurdly high to me, and fits the overall impression I have from here and other places that street harassment is much worse in the US than it is in Australia at least. Most of this impression does come from NYC/East Coast I think, so potentially it's also partly a regional thing rather than a national US thing, however I've seen others (don't want to name drop them) in other areas mention it's a daily thing for them too. Also worthy of note is that I'd say the woman in question is dressed very ordinarily, and walking confidently, so didn't seem to tick any of the boxes that are normally pointed to as "attracting the harassment".

What do others think? US Women do you think this is representative of the level of street harassment you face? Eurocommie women do you have the same reaction to this that Brook and myself have, that it's substantially more than what you see? Rest of the world feel free to chime in as well, I'm specifically interested in difference in the West and specifically the Anglosphere, hence the way I've asked it above, but comparisons to elsewhere is also worthwhile. Yes the phrasing is exclusionary in that I'm asking for women's opinions, after the mansplaining on facebook that's what I'm interested in.

[Shryke]

Yeah, I saw that earlier.

As a guy from Canada, I've never seen it happen and none of my female friends/family/acquaintances have ever complained about it happening to them.

Obviously not scientific or anything and maybe I just missed it or people don't talk about it, but my general impression is that it doesn't happen up here much.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Karradin,

Wow. That was quite the illustration. That said I say "hello" or "how are you" to just about anyone, male or female, I pass as I walk. Many of the interactions shown were clearly aggressive but not all. Isn't there a difference between being pleasant and being sexually aggressive?

[brook]

Scott if you say hello to everyone (or most people) you pass and you live in a place where that is culturally appropriate (as I understand much of the south is) nobody is going to fault you for a polite and friendly interaction.

I would expect a smile or hello from many people if I was walking around my suburban neighbourhood. I wouldn't expect it if I was walking in a busy city street such as Sydney or certainly NY city.

Also I very much doubt that most or any of the guys in that video would have been saying 'pleasant hello's' to any men who walked past them. I certainly do believe you when you say that is what you do but there were plenty of men walking around in the background of that video that were not getting the same treatment.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Brook,

Oh, I agree. Most of the examples in the video were being pretty explicitely sexually aggressive. The "Damns!" were a clear example of that.

[Balefont]

Yeah, I saw that earlier.

As a guy from Canada, I've never seen it happen and none of my female friends/family/acquaintances have ever complained about it happening to them.

Obviously not scientific or anything and maybe I just missed it or people don't talk about it, but my general impression is that it doesn't happen up here much.

Love you Shryke. However, most men don't witness these interactions because the perpetrators don't generally do it in front of other men - especially if the target is obviously "with" another man. So, it's no surprise this isn't something you've personally seen.

Also, until recently, most women haven't talked about it - some may not even realize it's happened - because we grew up in a society where this behavior is so commonplace that it doesn't seem odd or even wrong until we start to really examine it.

ETA: And what brook said about regional stuff.

For the most part, I'm not bothered when walking around downtown Providence* but driving out to see Mya, I stopped at a huge highway rest-stop (middle of Massachusetts) and got the fuck out of there as fast as I could eat because the stares were so plentiful and intense. (I had the audacity to travel alone and wear a pink sweatshirt and boot-cut jeans.)

(*I also know what areas to avoid and am generally around the financial district. Most of the men I walk by in the financial district have received a lot of sexual harrassment training so maybe that helps. Or maybe the professional dudes around here are good people.)

[Yersinia]

As a woman who has lived in various places in the US and now in western Europe, I get the impression that it depends mostly on the neighborhood, as well as your age and whether or not you have children with you, not the country itself. Also, as others have stated, what's considered creepy in a big city can be completely innocent in a smaller place.

[The Mance]

Countdown to rape threats in....

three...

two...

one

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Mance,

But they're really about ethics in gaming jouralism.

[Glaurung]

Thanks. I've been thinking about it a lot as we go through this process. It's a funny thing, because I truly believe that coeducation was a good thing, giving women access to the best opportunities. However, for my daughters, I'm looking at single sex education and seeing it as the path to a better outcome. I also am thinking about my son, and whether an all-boys school would be right for him when the time comes. I don't know.

Have you thought about letting them decide? Or at least wait until they are old enough then let them decide what they want? I do think that I could have gotten better grades if I had gone to an all boys school. There certainly would have been less distraction...but I would have hated my parents for sending me there. Those were distractions that I needed and were an essential part of the growth process.

There are many negative things that can happen with coed education, but at the same time there are plenty of positives as well. They will have to exist in the work place with the opposite sex, they might as well learn to co-exist in a learning environment.

[Prince Alexander]

So I meant to link this earlier today, and I suspect most of us have already seen it/been involved in a big long facebook argument about it by now, but a woman decided to film her "interactions" while she walked around NYC in jeans and a t-shirt, and the result was over 100 instances of verbal harassment in a 10 hour window. Some involved high levels of physical intimidation and harassment with one guy following her for over 5 minutes.

Now one angle, and that which was covered on facebook, is just trying to convince men that however well intentioned you are, it's frequently not welcome and comes with a context of volume that you do not know.

Another angle however is that this amount of street harassment seems absurdly high to me, and fits the overall impression I have from here and other places that street harassment is much worse in the US than it is in Australia at least. Most of this impression does come from NYC/East Coast I think, so potentially it's also partly a regional thing rather than a national US thing, however I've seen others (don't want to name drop them) in other areas mention it's a daily thing for them too. Also worthy of note is that I'd say the woman in question is dressed very ordinarily, and walking confidently, so didn't seem to tick any of the boxes that are normally pointed to as "attracting the harassment".

What do others think? US Women do you think this is representative of the level of street harassment you face? Eurocommie women do you have the same reaction to this that Brook and myself have, that it's substantially more than what you see? Rest of the world feel free to chime in as well, I'm specifically interested in difference in the West and specifically the Anglosphere, hence the way I've asked it above, but comparisons to elsewhere is also worthwhile. Yes the phrasing is exclusionary in that I'm asking for women's opinions, after the mansplaining on facebook that's what I'm interested in.

So, what's the action plan?

Make talking to strangers illegal? Spend money and time proving that idiots exist and we should do something about them?

Here in Belarus there is quite a bit of complimenting women from strangers. Women say thanks and smile unless they don't like the guy's looks or he goes for physical contact. Pretty sure it's the same like everywhere in the world, basically.

P.s. I guess I harassed a few women this week by telling them they look great. damn it :(

[protar]

So, what's the action plan?

Make talking to strangers illegal? Spend money and time proving that idiots exist and we should do something about them?

Or just raise awareness on cat calling to get people to stop doing it? I mean I'm sure at least some people might reconsider if they knew that their seemingly respectful hellos and good days where part of a cumulative effect alongside more nasty comments.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

PA,

Protar has the right of it. No government action necessary. This video, hopefully, raises awarness of how creepy the catcalling captured in it really is.