Alternative rethinking Sansa

[AliceRose]

Childhood at Winterfell.

Sansa grew at Winterfell with her family, brothers Robb, Bran, Rickon, half-brother Jon, younger sister Arya, Theon ward of her father. She had two friends, girls of her age Beth Cassel daughter of master-at-arms of Winterfell and Jeyne Poole daughter of steward.

Stark family has very idyllic relationships, children had a carefree childhood, they loved each other. Jon and Theon had some problems because Jon was a bastard and Theon was a hostage, but the Stark family was able to resolve tense situations with love and respect. Only Catelyn was unable to accept Eddard's infidelity and she has always been rude with Jon.

The Starks tradition was to tell terrifying and alarming stories about the age of heroes and the first men, protagonists of those stories were monsters from beyond the wall, Old Nan and lord Stark were common to tell those stories. Bran loved the northern legends, but Sansa just like her father has never considered them seriously. Sansa loved a completely different kind of stories, she loved songs of galant knights from the southern culture. Winterfell is an isolated castle and only once an old singer reached it, Sansa cried when the singer had to leave them.

Girls and boys had separate education. Eddard Stark was responsible to teach to his sons the leadership, the strategy, the art of command, the northern laws and the laws of the realm, none of those disciplines were supposed to be taught to girls. Lord Stark was a traditionalist(read patriarchal traditionalist) and he loved his daughters more than his life, he has never allowed them to see the cruelty of the real world, but with sons he was serious and demanding.

AGOT 1 BRAN

I do sentence you to die.” He lifted the greatsword high above his head.

Bran’s bastard brother Jon Snow moved closer. “Keep the pony well in hand,” he whispered. “And don’t look away. Father will know if you do.”

Bran kept his pony well in hand, and did not look away.

His father took off the man’s head with a single sure stroke. Blood sprayed out across the snow, as red as summerwine. One of the horses reared and had to be restrained to keep from bolting. Bran could not take his eyes off the blood. The snows around the stump drank it eagerly, reddening as he watched.

AGOT 2 CATELYN

“Arya is already in love, and Sansa is charmed and gracious, but Rickon is not quite sure.”

“Is he afraid?” Ned asked.

“A little,” she admitted. “He is only three.”

Ned frowned. “He must learn to face his fears. He will not be three forever. And winter is coming.”

“Yes,” Catelyn agreed.

Girls education was assigned to a septa, she taught some religious aspects, but mostly she was responsible to teach womanly arts and ladylike behavior. Sansa was her favorite pupil, according to Catelyn Sansa has always been eager to please, she loved to be perfect and impeccable. Sansa has always been well dressed, she danced and sang well.

ACOK 55 CATELYN

“Sansa was a lady at three, always so courteous and eager to please. She loved nothing so well as tales of knightly valor. Men would say she had my look, but she will grow into a woman far more beautiful than I ever was, you can see that.

Phrase eager to please reveals one important aspect of Sansa's character, she is a really beautiful girl and she is daughter of lord of Winterfell, but her self-esteem isn't very high, she is always searching love and approval from the others.

Sansa loves to be obedient, she willingly follows the rules of her society, Jon is only a half-brother Sansa does not contest this discrimination even she genuinely cares about him. Arya is the opposite of Sansa, she is rebel and impulsive, Arya feels inferior to Sansa because she is not so beautiful and she is not so good in womanly arts, but she finds comfort from father and in Jon. Septa Mordane and Jeyne often mock Arya for her look and her needlework, but whatever they say Arya is sure to have love and approval of Jon and Ned. Eddard said her once she looks like Lyanna and her father's words protect her from any derision. Complicity with Jon helps Arya to oppose septa Mordane, she learned early to have her own opinion and to protect her position. That is a pity Sansa has no this complicity with her brothers.

[AliceRose]

The king’s visit.

For all their life the Stark girls has been learning how to be a lady in high society, Arya has failed in this task, but Sansa finely had the chance to demonstrate her talent. Sansa has always known she must marry a great southern lord, her duty was to be gentle lady for southern guests and as usual she did her best.

Sansa has always dreamed about south, she dreamed tourneys, feasts and courtly life. The chance to became queen is hers forbidden dream, but we know Ned it against this idea. He does not want to change his life, he doesn't want his daughter to be queen.

AGOT 6 CATELYN

“Pride is everything to a king, my lord. Robert came all this way to see you, to bring you these great honors, you cannot throw them back in his face.”

“Honors?” Ned laughed bitterly.

“In his eyes, yes,” she said.

“And in yours?”

“And in mine,” she blazed, angry now. Why couldn’t he see? “He offers his own son in marriage to our daughter, what else would you call that? Sansa might someday be queen. Her sons could rule from the Wall to the mountains of Dorne. What is so wrong with that?”

“Gods, Catelyn, Sansa is only eleven,” Ned said. “And Joffrey... Joffrey is...”

She finished for him. “crown prince, and heir to the Iron Throne. And I was only twelve when my father promised me to your brother Brandon.”

That brought a bitter twist to Ned’s mouth. “Brandon. Yes. Brandon would know what to do. He always did. It was all meant for Brandon. You, Winterfell, everything. He was born to be a King’s Hand and a father to queens. I never asked for this cup to pass to me.”

In this dialog we can see for the first time the different points of view between Eddard and Catelyn, Sansa shares Catelyn's opinion. For mother and daughter the offer to be a queen is a great honour, Ned hesitates but he does not explain his doubts. Catelyn know Ned better than anyone, but she can't understand his behaviour. Sansa can feel father's disappointment about this betrothal in unconscious way, but she obviously can't understand his reasons. She feels uncertain about him, she can't feel his full approval because he does not approve, and i said before how much she needs to be appreciated. Be appreciated isn't the only thing the future queen needs, she needs good counsellors, she needs family support, sadly Sansa had nothing of those things, she was left alone in lion's jaws.

Eddard: “And Joffrey... Joffrey is...”

AGOT 7 ARYA

He looked around. “Prince Joffrey, Robb, will you go another round?”

Robb, already sweaty from a previous bout, moved forward eagerly. “Gladly.”

Joffrey moved into the sunlight in response to Rodrik’s summons. His hair shone like spun gold. He looked bored. “This is a game for children, Ser Rodrik.”

Theon Greyjoy gave a sudden bark of laughter. “You are children,” he said derisively.

“Robb may be a child,” Joffrey said. “I am a prince. And I grow tired of swatting at Starks with a play sword.”

“You got more swats than you gave, Joff,” Robb said. “Are you afraid?”

Prince Joffrey looked at him. “Oh, terrified,” he said. “You’re so much older.” Some of the Lannister men laughed.

Jon looked down on the scene with a frown. “Joffrey is truly a little shit,” he told Arya.

“Are you training women here?” the burned man wanted to know. He was muscled like a bull.

“I am training knights,” Ser Rodrik said pointedly. “They will have steel when they are ready. When they are of an age.”

The burned man looked at Robb. “How old are you, boy?”

“Fourteen,” Robb said.

“I killed a man at twelve. You can be sure it was not with a blunt sword.”

Arya could see Robb bristle. His pride was wounded. He turned on Ser Rodrik. “Let me do it. I can beat him.”

“Beat him with a tourney blade, then,” Ser Rodrik said.

Joffrey shrugged. “Come and see me when you’re older, Stark. If you’re not too old.” There was laughter from the Lannister men.

Robb’s curses rang through the yard. Arya covered her mouth in shock. Theon Greyjoy seized Robb’s arm to keep him away from the prince. Ser Rodrik tugged at his whiskers in dismay.

Joffrey feigned a yawn and turned to his younger brother. “Come, Tommen,” he said. “The hour of play is done. Leave the children to their frolics.”

That brought more laughter from the Lannisters, more curses from Robb. Ser Rodrik’s face was beet-red with fury under the white of his whiskers. Theon kept Robb locked in an iron grip until the princes and their party were safely away.

Robb, Theon, Arya, Bran, Ned, Jon all of them were aware that Joffrey is a truly little shit. They saw Prince's insolent behavior, but no one cared to warn Sansa, they did not care Sansa have to marry this little shit. The first think Olenna did was to ask how Joffrey was, neither Ned neither Cat didn't ask this important question, i can't understand how could they leave Sansa marry someone who acted like Joffrey at Winterfell, and why they did nothing to help Sansa with so problematic betrothed, they should explain to Sansa who is the prince. Neither Robb, Theon or Jon spoke to their sister, it is evident Sansa had lack of communication with the rest of family.

AGOT 10 JON

“Septa Mordane will take it away from me.”

“Not if she doesn’t know you have it,” Jon said.

“Who will I practice with?”

“You’ll find someone,” Jon promised her. “King’s Landing is a true city, a thousand times the size of Winterfell. Until you find a partner, watch how they fight in the yard. Run, and ride, make yourself strong. And whatever you do...”

Arya knew what was coming next. They said it together.

“Don’t... tell... Sansa!”

Jon messed up her hair. “I will miss you, little sister.”

Relationship between Jon and Arya was warm and genuine, but i suspect Sansa felt that she was excluded. She wanted to please her mother, to please the septa and to not offend Jon and she didn’t feel free emotions like Arya. She was friend with Beth and Jeyne, but these girls weren't her family and they had lower social status.

AGOT 7 ARYA

Sansa had the grace to blush. She blushed prettily. She did everything prettily, Arya thought with dull resentment. “Beth, you shouldn’t make up stories,” Sansa corrected the younger girl, gently stroking her hair to take the harshness out of her words. She looked at Arya. “What did you think of Prince Joff, sister? He’s very gallant, don’t you think?”

“Jon says he looks like a girl,” Arya said.

Sansa sighed as she stitched. “Poor Jon,” she said. “He gets jealous because he’s a bastard.”

“He’s our brother,” Arya said, much too loudly. Her voice cut through the afternoon quiet of the tower room.

Septa Mordane raised her eyes. She had a bony face, sharp eyes, and a thin lipless mouth made for frowning. It was frowning now. “What are you talking about, children?”

“Our half brother,” Sansa corrected, soft and precise

[AliceRose]

The Kingsroad

During the voyage becomes obvious how much Sansa is different from her family, misunderstandings are starting to weigh. Sansa does her best to realize her dream to be a loved and charming queen, she is eleven but she understand very well her duties. She is nervous with the court of king Robert, everyone looked at her, she couldn’t disappoint them she represented house Stark and she was betrothed to Joffrey .

AGOT 15 SANSA

He did, and had since she had first laid eyes on the ruin that fire had made of his face, though it seemed to her now that he was not half so terrifying as the other. Still, Sansa wrenched away from him, and the Hound laughed, and Lady moved between them, rumbling a warning. Sansa dropped to her knees to wrap her arms around the wolf. They were all gathered around gaping, she could feel their eyes on her, and here and there she heard muttered comments and titters of laughter.

“A wolf,” a man said, and someone else said, “Seven hells, that’s a direwolf,” and the first man said, “What’s it doing in camp?” and the Hound’s rasping voice replied, “The Starks use them for wet nurses,” and Sansa realized that the two stranger knights were looking down on her and Lady, swords in their hands, and then she was frightened again, and ashamed. Tears filled her eyes.

She heard the queen say, “Joffrey, go to her.”

And her prince was there.

“Leave her alone,” Joffrey said. He stood over her, beautiful in blue wool and black leather, his golden curls shining in the sun like a crown. He gave her his hand, drew her to her feet. “What is it, sweet lady? Why are you afraid? No one will hurt you. Put away your swords, all of you. The wolf is her little pet, that’s all.” He looked at Sandor Clegane. “And you, dog, away with you, you’re scaring my betrothed.”

The Hound, ever faithful, bowed and slid away quietly through the press. Sansa struggled to steady herself. She felt like such a fool. She was a Stark of Winterfell, a noble lady, and someday she would be a queen. “It was not him, my sweet prince,” she tried to explain. “It was the other one.”

The two stranger knights exchanged a look. “Payne?” chuckled the young man in the green armor.

The older man in white spoke to Sansa gently. “Ofttimes Ser Ilyn frightens me as well, sweet lady. He has a fearsome aspect.”

“As well he should.” The queen had descended from the wheelhouse. The spectators parted to make way for her. “If the wicked do not fear the Mng’s Justice, you have put the wrong man in the office.”

Sansa finally found her words. “Then surely you have chosen the right one, Your Grace,” she said, and a gale of laughter erupted all around her.

“Well spoken, child,” said the old man in white. “As befits the daughter of Eddard Stark. I am honored to know you, however irregular the manner of our meeting. I am Ser Barristan Selmy, of the Kingsguard.” He bowed.

Sansa knew the name, and now the courtesies that Septa Mordane had taught her over the years came back to her. “The Lord Commander of the Kingsguard,” she said, “and councillor to Robert

our king and to Aerys Targaryen before him. The honor is mine, good knight. Even in the far north, the singers praise the deeds of Barristan the Bold.”

The green knight laughed again. “Barristan the Old, you mean. Don’t flatter him too sweetly, child, he thinks overmuch of himself already.” He smiled at her. “Now, wolf girl, if you can put a name to me as well, then I must concede that you are truly our Hand’s daughter.”

Joffrey stiffened beside her. “Have a care how you address my betrothed.”

“I can answer,” Sansa said quickly, to quell her prince’s anger. She smiled at the green knight. “Your helmet bears golden antlers, my lord. The stag is the sigil of the royal House. King Robert has two brothers. By your extreme youth, you can only be Renly Baratheon, Lord of Storm’s End and councillor to the king, and so I name you.”

Ser Barristan chuckled. “By his extreme youth, he can only be a prancing jackanapes, and so I name him.”

There was general laughter, led by Lord Renly himself. The tension of a few moments ago was gone, and Sansa was beginning to feel comfortable...

Sansa has no help with her diplomatic duties, Ned was too busy with Robert. Arya wasn't worry for her new position daughter of hand of the king, she acts just like at Winterfell, she did everything she want and she did not follow the rules as usual. Eddard did not want to go south, and i think he was happy that Arya is able to maintain her Stark personality even in this unwanted journey. Eddard despised false courtly courtesy, Arya was more sympathetic for him than Sansa. Sansa had no ways to understand what is the problem, she couldn't even imagine that her father isn't glad for her destiny. It is important to point up that Sansa realized immediately Joffrey was a Lannister and not a Baratheon, and she wanted to marry a Lannister, she had no idea of her father's thoughts about them, he has never shared his considerations with Sansa. Septa Mordane was an incompetent mentor and she had no power to control Arya, Ned didn’t wanted Arya to be controlled.

AGOT 15 SANSA

One day she came back grinning her horsey grin, her hair all tangled and her clothes covered in mud, clutching a raggedy bunch of purple and green flowers for Father. Sansa kept hoping he would tell Arya to behave herself and act like the highborn lady she was supposed to be, but he never did, he only hugged her and thanked her for the flowers. That just made her worse.

Sansa does not understand Arya's reasons to prefer the company of common folk instead of hers company. Arya tried to imitate the way of ruling of her father, she got used to communicate with common folk at Winterfell this attitude was approved by lord Stark. It is a shame for Ned that he did not explain his ideas of leadership to his girls, Arya caught this dialog with Robb incidentally.

AGOT 15 SANSA

Sansa knew all about the sorts of people Arya liked to talk to: squires and grooms and serving girls, old men and naked children, rough-spoken freeriders of uncertain birth. Arya would make friends with anybody. This Mycah was the worst; a butcher’s boy, thirteen and wild, he slept in the meat wagon and smelled of the slaughtering block. Just the sight of him was enough to make Sansa feel sick, but Arya seemed to prefer his company to hers.

AGOT 22 ARYA

Back at Winterfell, they had eaten in the Great Hall almost half the time. Her father used to say that a lord needed to eat with his men, if he hoped to keep them. “Know the men who follow you,” she heard him tell Robb once, “and let them know you. Don’t ask your men to die for a stranger.” At Winterfell, he always had an extra seat set at his own table, and every day a different man would be asked to join him. One night it would be Vayon Poole, and the talk would be coppers and bread stores and servants. The next time it would be Mikken, and her father would listen to him go on about armour and swords and how hot a forge should be and the best way to temper steel. Another day it might be Hullen with his endless horse talk, or Septon Chayle from the library, or Jory, or Ser Rodrik, or even Old Nan with her stories.

Arya had loved nothing better than to sit at her father’s table and listen to them talk. She had loved listening to the men on the benches too; to freeriders tough as leather, courtly knights and bold young squires, grizzled old men-at-arms. She used to throw snowballs at them and help them steal pies from the kitchen. Their wives gave her scones and she invented names for their babies and played monsters-and-maidens and hide-the-treasure and come-into-my-castle with their children. Fat Tom used to call her “Arya Underfoot,” because he said that was where she always was. She’d liked that a lot better than “Arya Horseface.”

Sansa has no Catelyn's strong character, one of few things she shares con her mother is sense of hierarchy, Catelyn considers social rules very important. Cat thinks that the respect to the king is more important than Eddard's personal affection to Robert. Sansa adopt Catelyn point of view when she faces royal family, but it isn't Stark's way. We have some examples of Sansa being excessively submissive to the authority.

AGOT 15 SANSA

“I don’t like the queen,” Arya said casually. Sansa sucked in her breath, shocked that even Arya would say such a thing, but her sister prattled on, heedless. “She won’t even let me bring Nymeria.” She thrust the brush under her belt and stalked her wolf. Nymeria watched her approach warily.

“A royal wheelhouse is no place for a wolf,” Sansa said. “And Princess Myrcella is afraid of them, you know that.”

The other example is more problematic because submission to the authority of the prince is united to submission to the future husband and a crush with the boy.

AGOT 15 SANSA

Prince Joffrey laughed. The boy looked around, wide-eyed and startled, and dropped his stick in the grass. The girl glared at them, sucking on her knuckles to take the sting out, and Sansa was horrified. ‘Arya?” she called out incredulously.

“Go away,” Arya shouted back at them, angry tears in her eyes. “What are you doing here? Leave us alone.”

Joffrey glanced from Arya to Sansa and back again. “Your sister?” She nodded, blushing. Joffrey examined the boy, an ungainly lad with a coarse, freckled face and thick red hair. “And who are you, boy?” he asked in a commanding tone that took no notice of the fact that the other was a year his senior.

“Mycah,” the boy muttered. He recognized the prince and averted his eyes. “M’lord.”

“He’s the butcher’s boy,” Sansa said.

“He’s my friend,” Arya said sharply. “You leave him alone.”

“A butcher’s boy who wants to be a knight, is it?” Joffrey swung down from his mount, sword in hand. “Pick up your sword, butcher’s boy,” he said, his eyes bright with amusement. “Let us see how good you are.”

Mycah stood there, frozen with fear.

Joffrey walked toward him. “Go on, pick it up. Or do you only fight little girls?”

“She ast me to, m’lord,” Mycah said. “She ast me to.”

Sansa had only to glance at Arya and see the flush on her sister’s face to know the boy was telling the truth, but Joffrey was in no mood to listen. The wine had made him wild. “Are you going to pick up your sword?”

Mycah shook his head. “It’s only a stick, m’lord. It’s not no sword, it’s only a stick.”

“And you’re only a butcher’s boy, and no knight.” Joffrey lifted Lion’s Tooth and laid its point on Mycah’s cheek below the eye, as the butcher’s boy stood trembling. “That was my lady’s sister you were hitting, do you know that?” A bright bud of blood blossomed where his sword pressed into Mycah’s flesh, and a slow red line trickled down the boy’s cheek.

“Stop it!” Arya screamed. She grabbed up her fallen stick.

Sansa was afraid. “Arya, you stay out of this.”

“I won’t hurt him... much,” Prince Joffrey told Arya, never taking his eyes off the butcher’s boy.

Arya went for him.

Sansa slid off her mare, but she was too slow. Arya swung with both hands. There was a loud crack as the wood split against the back of the prince’s head, and then everything happened at once before Sansa’s horrified eyes. Joffrey staggered and whirled around, roaring curses. Mycah ran for the trees as fast as his legs would take him. Arya swung at the prince again, but this time Joffrey caught the blow on Lion’s Tooth and sent her broken stick flying from her hands. The back of his head was all bloody and his eyes were on fire. Sansa was shrieking, “No, no, stop it, stop it, both of you, you’re spoiling it,” but no one was listening. Arya scooped up a rock and hurled it at Joffrey’s head. She hit his horse instead, and the blood bay reared and went galloping off after Mycah. “Stop it, don’t, stop it!” Sansa screamed. Joffrey slashed at Arya with his sword, screaming obscenities, terrible words, filthy words. Arya darted back, frightened now, but Joffrey followed, hounding her toward the woods, backing her up against a tree. Sansa didn’t know what to do. She watched helplessly, almost blind from her tears.

Then a grey blur flashed past her, and suddenly Nymeria was there, leaping, jaws closing around Joffrey’s sword arm. The steel fell from his fingers as the wolf knocked him off his feet, and they rolled in the grass, the wolf snarling and ripping at him, the prince shrieking in pain. “Get it off,” he screamed. “Get it off!”

Arya’s voice cracked like a whip. “Nymeria!”

The direwolf let go of Joffrey and moved to Arya’s side. The prince lay in the grass, whimpering, cradling his mangled arm. His shirt was soaked in blood. Arya said, “She didn’t hurt you... much.” She picked up Lion’s Tooth where it had fallen, and stood over him, holding the sword with both hands.

Joffrey made a scared whimpery sound as he looked up at her. “No,” he said, “don’t hurt me. I’ll tell my mother.”

“You leave him alone!” Sansa screamed at her sister.

Arya whirled and heaved the sword into the air, putting her whole body into the throw. The blue steel flashed in the sun as the sword spun out over the river. It hit the water and vanished with a splash. Joffrey moaned. Arya ran off to her horse, Nymeria loping at her heels.

After they had gone, Sansa went to Prince Joffrey. His eyes were closed in pain, his breath ragged. Sansa knelt beside him. “Joffrey,” she sobbed. “Oh, look what they did, look what they did. My poor prince. Don’t be afraid. I’ll ride to the holdfast and bring help for you.” Tenderly she reached out and brushed back his soft blond hair.

His eyes snapped open and looked at her, and there was nothing but loathing there, nothing but the vilest contempt. “Then go,” he spit at her. “And don’t touch me.”

There's so much to tell about this episode..

1)Joffrey wanted to hurt an innocent, but Sansa didn't feel compassion to the poor boy, she was worry about her ruined day.

2)Stark's family does not hurts innocents, violent behavior is despised by Stark, Sansa didn't think the prince is acting wrong.

3)Joffrey screamed obscenities to Arya, he offended her, but Sansa was still on his side.

4)Joffrey attacked Arya with a real sword, she was disarmed and scared, Sansa saw he was angry and could hurt Arya seriously or kill her. Sansa had no the instinct to protect her sister, he had no the instinct to punish someone who threatened a member of her family.

5) After all the obscenities the prince did Sansa stayed with him and tried to comfort him.

The lack of understanding of all those things is Sansa's lower moment in the books. She had no Stark dignity, even Rodrik Cassel master-at-arms of Winterfell had courage to oppose the cron-prince.

AGOT 7 ARYA

The master-at-arms put a hand on Robb’s shoulder to quiet him. “Live steel is too dangerous. I will permit you tourney swords, with blunted edges.”

Joffrey said nothing, but a man strange to Arya, a tall knight with black hair and burn scars on his face, pushed forward in front of the prince. “This is your prince. Who are you to tell him he may not have an edge on his sword, ser?”

“Master-at-arms of Winterfell, Clegane, and you would do well not to forget it.”

“Are you training women here?” the burned man wanted to know. He was muscled like a bull.

“I am training knights,” Ser Rodrik said pointedly. “They will have steel when they are ready. When they are of an age.”

[Cat of the Rivers]

Sansa has no Catelyn's strong character, one of few things she shares con her mother is sense of hierarchy, Catelyn considers social rules very important. Cat thinks that the respect to the king is more important than Eddard's personal affection to Robert. Sansa adopt Catelyn point of view when she faces royal family, but it isn't Stark's way. We have some examples of Sansa being excessively submissive to the authority.

Sansa does have Catelyn's strong character; all the other Starks do in fact (along with Ned's strong character). She sees her father's head being chopped off, gets beaten almost everyday while dealing with a psychopath and queen who hates her, is married to a dwarf who's a member of the family she despises, hears her whole family's dead with the exception of Arya and she doesn't break down.

And also there is no "Stark way." The Starks are a family 8000 years old. The Starks are filled with individuals with different thinking processes, temperaments and personalities. Take the older generation of Starks for example; Lyanna and Brandon were impulsive hotheads, Rickard was politically savvy from what we hear on Southurn ambitions and Ned was the quiet dependable one. And even before that there was Theon the Hungry Wolf and the King who Knelt. They don't have a "Stark way" they're all different and unique.

The Kingsroad

During the voyage becomes obvious how much Sansa is different from her family, misunderstandings are starting to weigh. Sansa does her best to realize her dream to be a loved and charming queen, she is eleven but she understand very well her duties. She is nervous with the court of king Robert, everyone looked at her, she couldn’t disappoint them she represented house Stark and she was betrothed to Joffrey ...

...The lack of understanding of all those things is Sansa's lower moment in the books. She had no Stark dignity, even Rodrik Cassel master-at-arms of Winterfell had courage to oppose the cron-prince.

AGOT 7 ARYA

The master-at-arms put a hand on Robb’s shoulder to quiet him. “Live steel is too dangerous. I will permit you tourney swords, with blunted edges.”

Joffrey said nothing, but a man strange to Arya, a tall knight with black hair and burn scars on his face, pushed forward in front of the prince. “This is your prince. Who are you to tell him he may not have an edge on his sword, ser?”

“Master-at-arms of Winterfell, Clegane, and you would do well not to forget it.”

“Are you training women here?” the burned man wanted to know. He was muscled like a bull.

“I am training knights,” Ser Rodrik said pointedly. “They will have steel when they are ready. When they are of an age.”

Also Sansa actually the most like Ned. She's very merciful, forgiving and idealistic just like Ned. Arya's the one like Catelyn; the pragmatic, smart, vindictive one.

Again Sansa does have "Stark dignity" (and like I said before the Starks a group of wildly different individuals who's only thing in common is their last name. There were probably some cowards and undignified people who were Starks too). She refuses to kneel for Tyrion (and went with reputable dignity and courage; I would have been screaming and kicking all the way down the aisle) and when Lysa tried to drag her to the Moon Door Sansa decided to walk.

There's so much to tell about this episode..

1)Joffrey wanted to hurt an innocent, but Sansa didn't feel compassion to the poor boy, she was worry about her ruined day.

2)Stark's family does not hurts innocents, violent behavior is despised by Stark, Sansa didn't think the prince is acting wrong.

3)Joffrey screamed obscenities to Arya, he offended her, but Sansa was still on his side.

4)Joffrey attacked Arya with a real sword, she was disarmed and scared, Sansa saw he was angry and could hurt Arya seriously or kill her. Sansa had no the instinct to protect her sister, he had no the instinct to punish someone who threatened a member of her family.

5) After all the obscenities the prince did Sansa stayed with him and tried to comfort him.

She told Arya "to stay out of it" and tells both Joff and Arya to "stop it."

This scene does highlight Sansa's faults. She has a habit of acting idealistic and has a tendency to romanticize situations and individuals. But she is incredibly caring and compassionate towards people in need. She saves Ser Dontos Hollard, gets Lancel medical care (even though he participated in one of her beatings), calms down the women in Blackwater even though they mean nothing to her and puts up with Sweetrobin.

And also Sansa does hate the people who harmed her family. Like Walder Frey, Joffrey etc.

And also the earlier Starks were violent (they practiced human sacrifice) and probably hurt some innocents too. A Stark king after defeating the Marsh King married his daughter (which is basically what the Lannisters did to Sansa. Forcibly marrying her and raped her. I highly doubt that a daughter of a defeated king would have wanted to marry the guy who seized her kingdom)

[AliceRose]

Thank you for responce, please wait a little, i will explain my point of view better in the next post.

About Mycah is evident Sansa isn't compassionate with him, even after the death of poor boy.

Sansa does have Catelyn's strong character; all the other Starks do in fact (along with Ned's strong character).

And also there is no "Stark way."

These posts are self-contradictory.

I don't limit myself to tell Sansa isn't a Stark, i'm trying to be precise and explain all the points when Sansa is different from her family.

1) She does not consider hurting an innocent like something wrong.

2) She does not consider offending her sister like something wrong

3) She does not consider threatening her sister with real sword like something wrong

4) She does not consider being rejected when she try to help her betrothed like something wrong.

Sansa does not share Starks moral values, but i love Sansa i am sure she have an incredible character. I hope i will be able to demonstrate that Sansa has a strong personality, she gained her strength with hard lessons, when she was with the Stark family she wasn't strong.

Her story is very individualistic.. She doesn't understand the values of her own family and she know nothing about the real world, and everything she learn is only her merit.

[Cat of the Rivers]

Thank you for responce, please wait a little, i will explain my point of view better in the next post.

About Mycah is evident Sansa isn't compassionate with him, even after the death of poor boy.

These posts are self-contradictory.

I don't limit myself to tell Sansa isn't a Stark, i'm trying to be precise and explain all the points when Sansa is different from her family.

1) She does not consider hurting an innocent like something wrong.

2) She does not consider offending her sister like something wrong

3) She does not consider threatening her sister with real sword like something wrong

4) She does not consider being rejected when she try to help her betrothed like something wrong.

Sansa does not share Starks moral values, but i love Sansa i am sure she have an incredible character. I hope i will be able to demonstrate that Sansa has a strong personality, she gained her strength with hard lessons, when she was with the Stark family she wasn't strong.

Her story is very individualistic.. She doesn't understand the values of her own family and she know nothing about the real world, and everything she learn is only her merit.

I'm sorry not for waiting for another analyze on Sansa (which you bring up some great points like Sansa's family not questioning Joff's character which made me slightly annoyed at Catelyn and Ned.) I just tend to get a little impatient when having a productive argument with somebody :D

I wasn't being self contradictory because when I was talking about all the Starks I was speaking of the current generation of Starks- Robb, Sansa, Bran, Arya, Rickon having strong wills (and also there are plenty more characters like Daenerys, Brienne, Asha who have strong wills) which was noticing that a certain groups of character have similar traits (which is like saying that Jon, Dany, Tyrion and Arya have the most chapters) and the reason I mentioned the other Starks is not to solely single out Sansa having a strong will (I didn't want you to think that I was undermining for example Arya's character. And also say what you will about Ned and Cats' parenting they raised determined children) and I felt that when your post talked about "the Stark way", "the Stark dignity" you were implying that a character that belongs to a certain family will always act a certain way disregarding personalities, temperaments and personal values.

I don't think that Sansa's really different from her family. Sure she's more feminine than any of them but she connects with the North, Winterfell, the godswood just as much as the rest of them do. She keeps on trying to rebuild Winterfell in the Eyrie (a really beautiful passage) and there's a prophecy on her chopping off a giant's head (I really hope it's Littlefinger) in a castle of ice.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/69382-does-anyone-else-find-sansa-to-be-completely-useless/page-18#entry3341423%C2'>

This is the entry that convinced me that Sansa's like Ned and Arya's like Catelyn. It's quite thought provoking and well written and I think it might interest you.

Just out of curiosity what do you think that Sansa should have done at the Trident? She doesn't have physical abilities (she's definitely doesn't fight physically) to stop Joffrey from hurting Mycah and Arya. How would you prefer her to interfere? I honestly think I couldn't do anything if I were her but scream at them to stop (but I definitely would've spitted at Joff the moment it ended and like I said before Sansa's has rose colored glasses of the world until Joffrey chops her father's head off). The Trident incident is quite hotly debated even now though personally I blame Lady's death on Ned, Robert, Cersei and Joffrey. But Sansa does have a tendency like I said before to romanticize things and try to make harsh realities fit into her song filled head which is a severe flaw for her. Sansa does protect innocents though and she feels sorry for the Hound after hearing his tale (Gregor is the worst brother ever).

Again I don't really think that Starks have a certain morality. You've got a guy who would rather die than sacrifice his honor and a guy who forcibly marries a daughter of a guy he just conquered.

I think that the Starks namely Bran, Arya and Sansa have a sort of coming of age (it's a type of story where you see the narrator grow up and mature. One of the most famous coming of age stories would be Jane Eyre for example) quality to their stories that connects them. Her story connects with Arya and Brans' a lot so I don't think it's individualistic at all. Both Arya and Sansa have morally dubious mentors and Bran's is a little more than creepy, both Arya and Bran think of themselves as wolves but then you have Sansa and Bran who connect with birds (the 'flying' thing with Bran and 'the little bird' and being taken to the Eyrie for Sansa).

I do think that Sansa is one of the most moral characters in the books but I sometimes do wonder if her character's going to go for a darker tone.

[AliceRose]

King's court at Darry

Sansa's sister has disappeared for four days after the incident, Sansa should be worry for her. Sansa had enough time to analyze what exactly happened at the trident, but Sansa did not changed her mind, she was still convinced that it was Arya's fault. Arya was protecting her friend and Joffrey acted like a shit, why didn't Sansa understand who is in the wrong? Sansa does not have Stark's moral values, she judges Arya with septa's criterias, Mordane was a very shallow woman and she wasn't from the north, she only cared for the girl's obedience. Mordane demonized Arya in Sansa's eyes, every time septa speaks about Arya she mocks her for no reason, she installed in Sansa's mind the idea that Arya is always in the wrong only for being disobedient.

AGOT 15 SANSA

The septa was not appeased. “You’re a good girl, Sansa, but I do vow, when it comes to that creature you’re as willful as your sister Arya.” She scowled. “And where is Arya this morning?”

“She wasn’t hungry,” Sansa said, knowing full well that her sister had probably stolen down to the kitchen hours ago and wheedled a breakfast out of some cook’s boy.

Arya wasn't even here, she did nothing wrong but septa criticized her in front of Sansa.

AGOT 44 ARYA

“Septa, will Lord Beric spike Ser Gregor’s head on his own gate or bring it back here for the king?” She and Jeyne Poole had been arguing over that last night.

The septa was horror-struck. “A lady does not discuss such things over her porridge. Where are your courtesies, Sansa? I swear, of late you’ve been near as bad as your sister.”

Mordane said that Arya is bad when she was just having breakfast. Mordane damaged Arya's self-esteem with her continuous reproach, but the worst she did with relationship between sisters. Sansa felt to be superior and Arya hated her. Septa said at Sansa she is the perfect one and Sansa have no reason to doubt that, she had no the habit to questioning a comfortable solution.

Septa Mordane wasn't Sansa's parent, Ned was. Sansa told the true to him. She told the prince threatened Arya, and Ned should explain to her not blame her sister. The incident was really serious, Joffrey was hurt, but if it wasn't Joffrey, it might be Arya. Ned should discuss this situation with Sansa, the prince was dangerous, bully and rude, he was impolite with Sansa when she tried to help him. Joffrey behaviour should be questioning, he demonstrated himself like a psychopath and a psychopath might hurt Sansa as well. Ned should discuss Sansa's betrothal, and he should ask Sansa to not protect a monster who wanted to hurt an innocent and her sister. This was the perfect chance to demonstrate the family's love to Sansa, make her understand she have no need to be submissive with a violent boy, it was the chance to share Stark's values, Ned consider the truth more important than his life, he should help Sansa to tell the truth, he should explain how important is to protect a member of her family in so unfriendly place. He did nothing, as usual.

AGOT 16 EDDARD

“They were not the only ones present,” Ned said. “Sansa, come here.” Ned had heard her version of the story the night Arya had vanished. He knew the truth. “Tell us what happened.”

His eldest daughter stepped forward hesitantly. She was dressed in blue velvets trimmed with white, a silver chain around her neck. Her thick auburn hair had been brushed until it shone. She blinked at her sister, then at the young prince. “I don’t know,” she said tearfully, looking as though she wanted to bolt. “I don’t remember. Everything happened so fast, I didn’t see...”

Sansa is only eleven, she has never faced the real responsibility, she has been always protected by her parents and they have never allowed her to make decisions by herself. In this situation Eddard is asking her to decide a politically relevant conflict which could influence the future of Stark-Lannister relationship and Sansa's betrothal. Eddard like a good father(sarcastic) did nothing to help Sansa make the right decision. It's obvious Sansa did not know what to do, she did not want to risk her relationship with the prince and she did not want to put her sister in danger. She decided to lie, in my opinion Sansa's lie was Eddard's fault.

There was one possibility to save direwolves. Sansa's words might demonstrate Nymeria isn't savage, she acted only to protect Arya when she was in peril. Cersei wanted the animals death, but Robert decides and Robert does not love Joffrey and Cersei much, he admitted before his death he has doubts about Joffrey version, he might willingly accept Eddard's prayer not to kill Lady.

Eddard knew the truth, he knew an innocent boy and and an innocent animal are in peril. He was lord paramount of the North, hand of the king and best friend of the king. He HAD the power to oppose the wrong decision, he should oppose this decision. Lady was a member of his family, he should put himself between Lady and sir Ilyn, if Ned persisted with Robert, Lady might be alive.

Ned did not save Lady, he killed her and he has never talked about it with Sansa. She should understand what it is happened, she was confused why was she punished for nothing, she didn't know who to blame Cersei? Joffrey? Arya? A talk for clarify Sansa's doubts was needed. Ned should have a talk with both his girls before the journey, he should explain Lannister are enemy.

[Cat of the Rivers]

My favorite analysis so far :)

One thing that I liked about this chapter is seeing Sansa cover for Arya even though she knows exactly what Arya's doing. I thought it was really sweet.

Septa Mordane was a horrible teacher and I think that Catelyn and Ned should have observed her more to see what values she's instilling in their children. You're right on this one- Septa Mordane's done nothing but pit the two girl against each other. Why didn't Catelyn look more into it after the "hands of a blacksmith" comment?

That's my problem with Ned's parenting right there. Ned does nothing to break the betrothal even though his daughter's going to marry a boy who harms innocents, attacks his future sister in law (with the intent of killing her) and is a sniveling lying coward before court, Ned doesn't fight Robert's decision, he doesn't defiantly send Lady back in a cage to Winterfell-Ned just resigns himself to doing what the king (and queen) says even though he has the power to oppose it and also considering that they're in Catelyn's homeland, Ned is man in a misogynistic society and is the most powerful man second to the king I'd say that Ned trumps Cersei (who was being foolish by pissing off the Hand) here. Also he knew exactly what happened at the Trident (Sansa told him about it as soon as they came back) but says nothing in Arya, Nymeria and Mycahs' defense. Instead of saying what Sansa told him he decides to put all eleven year old girl in a incredibly difficult position.

He and Catelyn never question Joffrey's character, He never explains anything to Sansa, never tries to temper her infatuation with Joffrey (just shallowly thinking that if he tells Sansa to go, she'll go and would have to deal with Sansa asking why the hell they're marrying her to a psycho with bodily harms other children), doesn't get alarmed when Robert says that Joffrey scares him, drags along a nine year old and an eleven year old to investigate a murder (and he thinks that the queen of the court is responsible for it!!!), doesn't secure their safety before he goes confessing to Cersei and actually has to be reminded by Varys that Cersei has Sansa as a hostage and will not hesitate to chop her head off.

I mean compared to other parents of ASOIAF Ned and Cat are great but they definitely fucked up with Septa Mordane, Joffrey, Trident and the sheltering of the children.

"She was dressed in blue velvets trimmed with white, a silver chain around her neck" This piece of information predicts Sansa's fate in ASOS and AFFC. Blue and white are the colors of House Arryn and the silver chain signifies LF (Catelyn remarked that LF always loved his silver) taking her to the Eyrie. It's sort of amazing to see things like these, isn't it?

[AliceRose]

Finally i have the time to reply previous posts properly :)

Sansa does have Catelyn's strong character; all the other Starks do in fact (along with Ned's strong character). She sees her father's head being chopped off, gets beaten almost everyday while dealing with a psychopath and queen who hates her, is married to a dwarf who's a member of the family she despises, hears her whole family's dead with the exception of Arya and she doesn't break down.

I'm analyzing in this moment Sansa from AGOT, i don't go ahead. I'm trying to understand what kind of values and influences she had from her family.

Sansa does have Catelyn's strong character; all the other Starks do in fact (along with Ned's strong character).

Again Sansa does have "Stark dignity"

the current generation of Starks- Robb, Sansa, Bran, Arya, Rickon having strong wills

Sansa from AFFC does have strong character, strong will and Stark dignity, Sansa from AGOT? I doubt that. Her septa wanted Sansa to be an brainless geiha. Sansa was absolutely submissive with Joffrey and Cersei.

AGOT 15 SANSA

“I don’t like the queen,” Arya said casually. Sansa sucked in her breath, shocked that even Arya would say such a thing, but her sister prattled on, heedless.

Joffrey stiffened beside her. “Have a care how you address my betrothed.”

“I can answer,” Sansa said quickly, to quell her prince’s anger. She smiled at the green knight. “Your helmet bears golden antlers, my lord.

The touch of Joffrey’s hand on her sleeve made her heart beat faster. “What would you like to do?”

Be with you, Sansa thought, but she said, “Whatever you’d like to do, my prince.”

Joffrey reflected a moment. “We could go riding.”

“Oh, I love riding,” Sansa said. It isn't true.

“You mean the Hound,” she said. She wanted to hit herself for being so slow. Her prince would never love her if she seemed stupid. “Is it safe to leave him behind?”

After they had gone, Sansa went to Prince Joffrey. His eyes were closed in pain, his breath ragged. Sansa knelt beside him. “Joffrey,” she sobbed. “Oh, look what they did, look what they did. My poor prince. Don’t be afraid. I’ll ride to the holdfast and bring help for you.” Tenderly she reached out and brushed back his soft blond hair.

His eyes snapped open and looked at her, and there was nothing but loathing there, nothing but the vilest contempt. “Then go,” he spit at her. “And don’t touch me.”

AGOT 29 SANSA

When Prince Joffrey seated himself to her right, she felt her throat tighten. He had not spoken a word to her since the awful thing had happened, and she had not dared to speak to him. At first she thought she hated him for what they’d done to Lady, but after Sansa had wept her eyes dry, she told herself that it had not been Joffrey’s doing, not truly. The queen had done it; she was the one to hate, her and Arya. Nothing bad would have happened except for Arya.

[AliceRose]

She saves Ser Dontos Hollard, gets Lancel medical care (even though he participated in one of her beatings), calms down the women in Blackwater even though they mean nothing to her and puts up with Sweetrobin.

Sansa from ACOK, ASOS and AFFC does all those things, Sansa from AGOT does not care for hurting and killing an inocente, she is cynical about the death of ser Hugh.

AGOT 29 SANSA

She had never seen a man die before. She ought to be crying too, she thought, but the tears would not come. Perhaps she had used up all her tears for Lady and Bran. It would be different if it had been Jory or Ser Rodrik or Father, she told herself. The young knight in the blue cloak was nothing to her, some stranger from the Vale of Arryn whose name she had forgotten as soon as she heard it. And now the world would forget his name too, Sansa realized; there would be no songs sung for him. That was sad.

She was no heartbroken for the death of Ned's men, she did a very inappropriate comment about Jory after his death.

AGOT 44 SANSA

Alyn carried the Stark banner. When she saw him rein in beside Lord Beric to exchange words, it made Sansa feel ever so proud. Alyn was handsomer than Jory had been; he was going to be a knight one day.

[AliceRose]

I mean compared to other parents of ASOIAF Ned and Cat are great but they definitely fucked up with Septa Mordane, Joffrey, Trident and the sheltering of the children.

"She was dressed in blue velvets trimmed with white, a silver chain around her neck" This piece of information predicts Sansa's fate in ASOS and AFFC. Blue and white are the colors of House Arryn and the silver chain signifies LF (Catelyn remarked that LF always loved his silver) taking her to the Eyrie. It's sort of amazing to see things like these, isn't it?

I think Stark was wrong family for Sansa, she needed a Tyrell kind of family. Ned and Cat were wrong with the choice of mentor for their daughters, but the worst was Ned for Sansa, in all the book he has never spoken to her if not for orders or prohibitions, there was a terrible lack of communication, it is why i think she isn't like Ned, there were a lot of misunderstandings between them.

Ned was excellent in sheltering his daughters from the cruel truth of real life. He hided the truth, but he wasn't able sheltering them from the real life and his daughters were forced to face the cruel world with no notions about it. Ned was angry because Sansa saw the Mountain's victims e she heard their testimonies, she is a STARK OF WINTERFELL and WINTER IS COMING, she needs to know what the justice means.

AGOT 44 EDDARD

He caught a glimpse of Septa Mordane in the gallery, with his daughter Sansa beside her. Ned felt a flash of anger; this was no place for a girl. But the septa could not have known that today’s court would be anything but the usual tedious business of hearing petitions, settling disputes between rival holdfasts, and adjudicating the placement of boundary stones.

I disagree with the second point, each book is 1500 pages long, the story is really complicated. Martin admitted he does not remember all the particularities he wrote and he needs to check some facts with Elio. I think it is impossible to create so sophisticated system of conscious foreshadowing for so lengthy book.

[Cat of the Rivers]

Sansa from ACOK, ASOS and AFFC does all those things, Sansa from AGOT does not care for hurting and killing an inocente, she is cynical about the death of ser Hugh.

AGOT 29 SANSA

She had never seen a man die before. She ought to be crying too, she thought, but the tears would not come. Perhaps she had used up all her tears for Lady and Bran. It would be different if it had been Jory or Ser Rodrik or Father, she told herself. The young knight in the blue cloak was nothing to her, some stranger from the Vale of Arryn whose name she had forgotten as soon as she heard it. And now the world would forget his name too, Sansa realized; there would be no songs sung for him. That was sad.

She was no heartbroken for the death of Ned's men, she did a very inappropriate comment about Jory after his death.

AGOT 44 SANSA

Alyn carried the Stark banner. When she saw him rein in beside Lord Beric to exchange words, it made Sansa feel ever so proud. Alyn was handsomer than Jory had been; he was going to be a knight one day.

She reflects on it's sad that most of the world wouldn't remember him. I'd say that's quite a normal response to a person you don't know and have no attachment to dying. Do you personally cry every time a car crash happens?

She thinks Jaime Lannister is "Joffrey's wicked uncle" after Ned's men get slaughtered.

[Cat of the Rivers]

I disagree with the second point, each book is 1500 pages long, the story is really complicated. Martin admitted he does not remember all the particularities he wrote and he needs to check some facts with Elio. I think it is impossible to create so sophisticated system of conscious foreshadowing for so lengthy book.

I think it rings rather uncannily. She's wearing the colors of House Arryn, silver (which LF loves), is lying in front of a court (Lord Nestor about Lysa's death) at the behest of her "father." (LF).

Actually if you hunt through all of ASOIAF there is quite the foreshadowing in there. Even though these books are incredibly thick I think George spends a lot of time editing and rewriting.

-Catelyn looks at Renly's armor and thinks it reflects in a way that she looks like a drowned woman. And she thinks sometime (I think in AGOT though I may be wrong) that she felt as if her "heart had turned into stone."

-Theon remarks that at least Hodor knew his name right at the beginning of aGOT. What is Theon ranting about in ADWD?

-Tyrion says that if he wasn't a Lannister he would have been sold to a slaver's grotesquerie to Jon in AGOT. Tyrion's fate in ADWD.

There's lots and lots more.

[Cat of the Rivers]

I think Stark was wrong family for Sansa, she needed a Tyrell kind of family. Ned and Cat were wrong with the choice of mentor for their daughters, but the worst was Ned for Sansa, in all the book he has never spoken to her if not for orders or prohibitions, there was a terrible lack of communication, it is why i think she isn't like Ned, there were a lot of misunderstandings between them.

Ned was excellent in sheltering his daughters from the cruel truth of real life. He hided the truth, but he wasn't able sheltering them from the real life and his daughters were forced to face the cruel world with no notions about it. Ned was angry because Sansa saw the Mountain's victims e she heard their testimonies, she is a STARK OF WINTERFELL and WINTER IS COMING, she needs to know what the justice means.

AGOT 44 EDDARD

He caught a glimpse of Septa Mordane in the gallery, with his daughter Sansa beside her. Ned felt a flash of anger; this was no place for a girl. But the septa could not have known that today’s court would be anything but the usual tedious business of hearing petitions, settling disputes between rival holdfasts, and adjudicating the placement of boundary stones.

Ned probably didn't understand Sansa at all. He understands Arya to a certain extent because she's like Lyanna but he doesn't really get how a girl like Sansa thinks. I do think he also took her obedience for granted which bit him in the ass when Sansa went to Cersei. I do think she's like the feminine version of Ned, merciful, gentle and way too idealistic but I think because of her feminine side Ned who only grew up with Robert Baratheon barely understood her.

It does show Ned's sexist side. He takes a eight year old boy to a beheading yet his daughter who's eleven years old, is going to be the goddamn queen is sitting at a council meeting to do stuff (listening to testimonies, the administration of justice ) that she'll have to do later on is just too much for Ned. And this is Ned who thinks a five year old boy should start growing up.

It's rather unfortunate to see Ned sheltering the girls seeing how they were the ones in the end to suffer the most. Arya seeing war crimes everyday and Sansa getting physically, sexually and emotionally abused everyday. If Sansa had grown up with a Tyrell sort of family it would have been better for her than to learn all the stuff (keep your mouth shut, don't wear your feelings on a sleeve, don't trust anybody) with brutal lessons coming attached (beaten daily for speaking out of turn, being betrayed by Joffrey and Cersei) by herself.

[*ghosti-]

I enjoyed this analysis. I never considered this before but both Sansa and Tyrion are the black sheep of their families.

[Annara Snow]

I enjoyed this analysis. I never considered this before but both Sansa and Tyrion are the black sheep of their families.

Sansa was never the black sheep of her family. She was the good girl that was successful in everything that was expected of a lady, she was beautiful and expected to have everything good in life. What Robb was for Stark boys, she was for girls. Arya was the one who felt like a black sheep, though realistically she wasn't really. Jon was the closest to being a black sheep due to his bastard status, but he was never treated like Tyrion. He was never abused by anyone, and nobody hated him except Cat, who wasn't even his blood.

[Annara Snow]

Sansa from ACOK, ASOS and AFFC does all those things, Sansa from AGOT does not care for hurting and killing an inocente, she is cynical about the death of ser Hugh.

AGOT 29 SANSA

She had never seen a man die before. She ought to be crying too, she thought, but the tears would not come. Perhaps she had used up all her tears for Lady and Bran. It would be different if it had been Jory or Ser Rodrik or Father, she told herself. The young knight in the blue cloak was nothing to her, some stranger from the Vale of Arryn whose name she had forgotten as soon as she heard it. And now the world would forget his name too, Sansa realized; there would be no songs sung for him. That was sad.

She was no heartbroken for the death of Ned's men, she did a very inappropriate comment about Jory after his death.

AGOT 44 SANSA

Alyn carried the Stark banner. When she saw him rein in beside Lord Beric to exchange words, it made Sansa feel ever so proud. Alyn was handsomer than Jory had been; he was going to be a knight one day.

Cynical?! What's cynical about thinking that it's sad that no songs would be sung for him?!

What was she supposed to do, cry, scream and faint over the death of someone she didn't even know?! Be heartbroken? Is that in any way a realistic emotional reaction? Was Bran supposed to cry, scream and faint when he saw Gared beheaded by his father? I don't see anyone saying Bran was uncaring because he didn't look away or flinch. That was even expected of him. And he was just 7, while Sansa was 11. Why would you expect Sansa to cry, scream and faint? Because she's a girl? Because she's a girl who wants to look pretty, wear nice dresses and get married, who is good at sewing, singing and writing poetry and doesn't want to play with swords? Just out of interest, would you expect Arya to cry, scream and faint over the death of someone she didn't know? How about Jon or Robb?

Ironically, if Sansa had screamed, cried and fainted, I am sure it would have been seen as evidence of her being a stupid, weak girly girl, not cool like Arya or her brothers.

And if Sansa didn't care about innocents suffering, how come she had Gregor pegged as a monster for killing Hugh and burning Sandor, felt compassion for Sandor when she heard his story, and was rooting for him the next day in the joust?

[Annara Snow]

I think Stark was wrong family for Sansa, she needed a Tyrell kind of family. Ned and Cat were wrong with the choice of mentor for their daughters, but the worst was Ned for Sansa, in all the book he has never spoken to her if not for orders or prohibitions, there was a terrible lack of communication, it is why i think she isn't like Ned, there were a lot of misunderstandings between them.

Ned was excellent in sheltering his daughters from the cruel truth of real life. He hided the truth, but he wasn't able sheltering them from the real life and his daughters were forced to face the cruel world with no notions about it. Ned was angry because Sansa saw the Mountain's victims e she heard their testimonies, she is a STARK OF WINTERFELL and WINTER IS COMING, she needs to know what the justice means.

AGOT 44 EDDARD

He caught a glimpse of Septa Mordane in the gallery, with his daughter Sansa beside her. Ned felt a flash of anger; this was no place for a girl. But the septa could not have known that todays court would be anything but the usual tedious business of hearing petitions, settling disputes between rival holdfasts, and adjudicating the placement of boundary stones.

I disagree with the second point, each book is 1500 pages long, the story is really complicated. Martin admitted he does not remember all the particularities he wrote and he needs to check some facts with Elio. I think it is impossible to create so sophisticated system of conscious foreshadowing for so lengthy book.

The Tyrells are all about using their children's marriages in gaining power. Sansa is all about having a romance from the songs and marrying for love. It's easy to see why the Tyrells would be one of the worst families to be born into.

Two other statements that strike me as incorrect:

- that Bran only liked Northern stories: Bran also loved stories and dreamed of being a knight. Knights are a southron concept related to the Faith of the Seven.

- that Sansa always knew she would marry a great southron lord: that's unlikely. She always knew she would marry a lord, but before Robert made the Joffrey match, it was more likely she would marry a northern lord.

[Cat of the Rivers]

Cynical?! What's cynical about thinking that it's sad that no songs would be sung for him?!

What was she supposed to do, cry, scream and faint over the death of someone she didn't even know?! Be heartbroken? Is that in any way a realistic emotional reaction? Was Bran supposed to cry, scream and faint when he saw Gared beheaded by his father? I don't see anyone saying Bran was uncaring because he didn't look away or flinch. That was even expected of him. And he was just 7, while Sansa was 11. Why would you expect Sansa to cry, scream and faint? Because she's a girl? Because she's a girl who wants to look pretty, wear nice dresses and get married, who is good at sewing, singing and writing poetry and doesn't want to play with swords? Just out of interest, would you expect Arya to cry, scream and faint over the death of someone she didn't know? How about Jon or Robb?

Ironically, if Sansa had screamed, cried and fainted, I am sure it would have been seen as evidence of her being a stupid, weak girly girl, not cool like Arya or her brothers.

And if Sansa didn't care about innocents suffering, how come she had Gregor pegged as a monster for killing Hugh and burning Sandor, felt compassion for Sandor when she heard his story, and was rooting for him the next day in the joust?

:agree:

Well said

The Tyrells are all about using their children's marriages in gaining power. Sansa is all about having a romance from the songs and marrying for love. It's easy to see why the Tyrells would be one of the worst families to be born into.

But wouldn't it have been better for Sansa to learn more about politics and realities of the world?

[AliceRose]

The Hand's Tourney

AGOT 22 ARYA

“The talk in the yard is we shall have a tourney, my lord,” Jory said as he resumed his seat. “They say that knights will come from all over the realm to joust and feast in honor of your appointment as Hand of the King.”

Arya could see that her father was not very happy about that. “Do they also say this is the last thing in the world I would have wished?”

Sansa’s eyes had grown wide as the plates. “A tourney,” she breathed. She was seated between Septa Mordane and Jeyne Poole, as far from Arya as she could get without drawing a reproach from Father. “Will we be permitted to go, Father?”

“You know my feelings :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: NO NED, SANSA DOES NOT UNDERSTAND YOU Sansa. It seems I must arrange Robert’s games and pretend to be honored for his sake. That does not mean I must subject my daughters to this folly.”

“Oh, please,” Sansa said. “I want to see.”

Septa Mordane spoke up. “Princess Myrcella will be there, my lord, and her younger than Lady Sansa. All the ladies of the court will be expected at a grand event like this, and as the tourney is in your honor, it would look queer if your family did not attend.”

Father looked pained. “I suppose so. Very well, I shall arrange a place for you, Sansa.” He saw Arya. “For both of you.”

“I don’t care about their stupid tourney,” Arya said. She knew Prince Joffrey would be there, and she hated Prince Joffrey.

Sansa lifted her head. “It will be a splendid event. You shan’t be wanted.”

Anger flashed across Father’s face. “Enough, Sansa. More of that and you will change my mind. I am weary unto death of this endless war you two are fighting. You are sisters. I expect you to behave like sisters, is that understood?” NO NED, SANSA DOES NOT UNDERSTAND YOU

To see a great tourney was Sansa's dream since she has been little child, Ned wrongly supposes Sansa can understand his feelings without any explanations why Ned does not love tourneys in general and why he is displeased with the tourney in his honour.

Sansa, obviously, would like to see the tourney, but more she would like to be loved by her father. Her ladylike behaviour is on the base of her self-esteem, she would like her father's appreciations of her impeccable look and impeccable courtesy. Sansa is a perfect child, but she has no support from her family, Ned is disappointed only for Sansa's desire to participate and Arya humiliates her, i think Sansa was frustrated by her family.

The most important think for Sansa isn't one stupid tourney, it is to be loved, Ned should explain why this tourney is wrong. He should talk with Sansa about the crown's debt, Sansa is very intelligent she can understand this. She would like to be considered an adult, she would like to share her father's ideas, but she can't because he does not speak with her. Ned should know how important this tourney is for Sansa.

AGOT 29 SANSA

“It is better than the songs,” she whispered when they found the places that her father had promised her, among the high lords and ladies. Sansa was dressed beautifully that day, in a green gown that brought out the auburn of her hair, and she knew they were looking at her and smiling.

They watched the heroes of a hundred songs ride forth, each more fabulous than the last.

Like Catelyn said Sansa is eager to please, she is always looking for approval, if she does not have approval from her family, she will search it from the others. Septa Mordane is the only one person who supports Sansa in her desire to be a great lady and a charmant queen.

A dozen times Jeyne and Sansa cried out in unison as riders crashed together, lances exploding into splinters while the commons screamed for their favorites. Jeyne covered her eyes whenever a man fell, like a frightened little girl, but Sansa was made of sterner stuff. A great lady knew how to behave at tournaments. Even Septa Mordane noted her composure and nodded in approval.

The problem is that septa Mordane is an inappropriate teacher for a Stark of Winterfell, she instills superficial values in Sansa's mind, she does not teach her to be sincere, she teach Sansa empty courtesy. Sansa does not teach Sansa to love her family and to be proud for the north, at the tourney Mordane mocked northern knights for their look. The implication is that the Southern knights are somehow better simply because of the way they're dressed, and this is when it becomes problematic. Instead of showing support for Jory or explaining the different cultural norms, she makes an outright value judgement denigrating a Northerner because he isn't richly attired as the others around him.

AGOT 29 SANSA

The Hound entered the lists as well, and so too the king’s brother, handsome Lord Renly of Storm’s End. Jory, Alyn, and Harwin rode for Winterfell and the north. “Jory looks a beggar among these others,” Septa Mordane sniffed when he appeared. Sansa could only agree. Jory’s armor was blue-grey plate without device or ornament, and a thin grey cloak hung from his shoulders like a soiled rag.

With this kind of mentor is pretty obvious why Sansa does not understand the value of human life, one young boy is dead and Sansa thinks about songs. But septa Mordane isn't Sansa's mother and father, Sansa has parents who should explain:

AGOT 30 EDDARD

“Hugh was Jon Arryn’s squire for four years,” Selmy went on. “The king knighted him before he rode north, in Jon’s memory. The lad wanted it desperately, yet I fear he was not ready.”

Ned had slept badly last night and he felt tired beyond his years. “None of us is ever ready,” he said.

“For knighthood?”

“For death.” Gently, Ned covered the boy with his cloak, a bloodstained bit of blue bordered in crescent moons. When his mother asked why her son was dead, he reflected bitterly, they would tell her he had fought to honor the King’s Hand, Eddard Stark. “THIS WAS NEEDLESS. WAR SHOULD NOT BE A GAME.”