Bakker XXX: A Dark and Seminal Work

[Hello World]

upon what do you base that expectation? Despite RSB's professed seeking out of Pat's email to share an excerpt way back in March 2014, nothing has been shared as far as I can tell. If there's no excerpt ready for sharing, I very much doubt the book will be published in 2015 at all. If it is, then close to the end. I'm curious to understand your assessment though.

What's worse is that back in march when he made the announcement he said,

That’s as much as I can say detail-wise, at the moment. As soon as my publishers and my agent and I have the details hashed out I will post them here post-haste.

As soon as he settles things with his publishers he will post the details 'post-haste'.

And then in October he says,

I’ve received feedback from several readers now, but nothing officially editorial.

Since March some of his friends (Madness et al.) have read the manuscript but nothing official has happened.

In other words--as someone put it in the last thread--at the moment, the book seems to be 'in limbo'.

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

upon what do you base that expectation? Despite RSB's professed seeking out of Pat's email to share an excerpt way back in March 2014, nothing has been shared as far as I can tell. If there's no excerpt ready for sharing, I very much doubt the book will be published in 2015 at all. If it is, then close to the end. I'm curious to understand your assessment though.

Just my opinion based off him turning in first draft. Its just a guess, am I allowed to do that? Or do I need concrete proof to say anything without being attacked. Shit man, I feel like you have to justify everything you say in this thread. As if y'all are the greatest most minds on the internet. Piece of advise......get over yourself.

I don't search the net for quotes and release statements. Its just what I expect to happen. After what other people have said on here and over on the TSA forum. Yes I know there's been nothing official, its just my guess.

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

I don't think that there are too many more important members of the Consult than Aurang. He's an Old Name and whatnot and Shae's boyfriend and stuff.

I just felt as if it was two different entities, thats all. Do you have proof that I'm wrong or that it wasn't? Wow, if I don't subscribe and go with the status quo around here, you guys knock it down. But, you have no proof to knock it down other than its not what you think. When I've read some pretty outlandish stupid shit on here. I don't comment on them, to make myself feel like I'm all knowing Bakker fan of the world. Geeesh, I talked to another poster privately who read and enjoyed TSA and he said he doesn't deal with the thread anymore, because of the uppity attitudes of so many.

ETA: But, I don't care and will continue to say whatever the fuck I want! I don't need your guys pat on the back to feel wanted/needed. I could give a shit less if you like me or what you think of my posts. Hell its only 4 or 5 of ya's that have a continuous circle-jerk, with your teenage jokes.

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

You seem to be interpreting some kind of personal attack where none exists.

Yea I feel there is a personal attack. What makes you right Triskan? Your offering no proof to the contrary. Your just saying I'm wrong, when you have absolutely no FUCKING IDEA if I'm wrong. Its happens everytime I make a post. I guess because I'm not in the circle of all-time posters of the Bakker thread. You offer nothing that proves me wrong. You don't discuss anything with me. Its just no your wrong, when you don't have any idea if I'm wrong or not. It might not be a "attack", but its you just dismissing what I say as if I don't I have the right to speculate. WHICH IS ALL YOU GUYS DO ON HERE, SPECULATE! But, my speculations aren't worth the time to discuss. So flip your wrist and throw my speculations to the side. The only person who has ever discussed anything with me on here is Sci. That's it, everything else is just ignored. So what proof do you have that I'm wrong? Huh? Discuss it with me. I said that after I seen that the Syntheses are vessels for senior Consult members to house their souls. So from that I was like, hmmm that makes sense because I got the feeling it wasn't the same "soul" in the syntheses everytime we see them. And instead of discussing something with me you just say I'm wrong. Tell me what makes you right? Oh, because you have more posts in the Bakker threads? Oh I will now bow down and never question the greatness of you people. I'm wrong, but I'm wrong just cause you say so.

[Hello World]

Yea I feel there is a personal attack. What makes you right Triskan? Your offering no proof to the contrary. Your just saying I'm wrong, when you have absolutely no FUCKING IDEA if I'm wrong. Its happens everytime I make a post. I guess because I'm not in the circle of all-time posters of the Bakker thread. You offer nothing that proves me wrong. You don't discuss anything with me. Its just no your wrong, when you don't have any idea if I'm wrong or not. It might not be a "attack", but its you just dismissing what I say as if I don't I have the right to speculate. WHICH IS ALL YOU GUYS DO ON HERE, SPECULATE! But, my speculations aren't worth the time to discuss. So flip your wrist and throw my speculations to the side. The only person who has ever discussed anything with me on here is Sci. That's it, everything else is just ignored. So what proof do you have that I'm wrong? Huh? Discuss it with me. I said that after I seen that the Syntheses are vessels for senior Consult members to house their souls. So from that I was like, hmmm that makes sense because I got the feeling it wasn't the same "soul" in the syntheses everytime we see them. And instead of discussing something with me you just say I'm wrong. Tell me what makes you right? Oh, because you have more posts in the Bakker threads? Oh I will now bow down and never question the greatness of you people. I'm wrong, but I'm wrong just cause you say so.

Wrong.

[Francis Buck]

Damn, that escalated fast.

[Calibandar]

What's worse is that back in march when he made the announcement he said,

As soon as he settles things with his publishers he will post the details 'post-haste'.

And then in October he says,

Since March some of his friends (Madness et al.) have read the manuscript but nothing official has happened.

In other words--as someone put it in the last thread--at the moment, the book seems to be 'in limbo'.

That was me, and I still feel extremely glum about the release of TUC, whether it be in 1 book or 2.

Basically, it seems from Scott's blog post two weeks ago, that little, or even absolutely nothing, has happened, since the start of 2014. That's a staggering disappointment. It's one thing that the Canadian publisher dropped him ( which is odd, midway through the series!) but the fact that we are seeing nothing on the Orbit or Overlook listings, that apparently nothing official has come back, and that Scott said in the blog post it seems like this book isn't as much in certain people's minds as he hoped ( I'm paraphrasing) are all very bad signs. At this point there is no release date, and by that I mean that it could be years away if nothing changes. Scott did say TUC was the first thing on his plate, but apparently even now there is still rewriting to be done, or restructuring of the whole book even, or deciding if it will be one or two books ( why doesn't he know this by now?). That is if there is any writing being done at all, which is very doubtful, especially after the admission that he basically didn't get anything done the last few months.

Where is this going? What will it take for this to be finished and actually released? No one should be talking about the series after TUC, and indeed, no one does. It's a huge question right now if TUC will even come out next year. Or even if it will ever be finished.

It's amazing how the two series where you're most eager to see a new book (ASOIF and Second Apocalypse), the wait and uncertainty about either book even ever coming out is enormous. Both Winds and TUC could come out in 2015. Both of these books could also fail to be out two solid years from now. The situation for both authors is very different, but the endless wait and frustration about the lack of progress is largely the same. There's plenty of decent Fantasy authors releasing solid books every year, but the ones you really want, they are in the hands of talented but very problematic authors.

[Gaston de Foix]

Just my opinion based off him turning in first draft. Its just a guess, am I allowed to do that? Or do I need concrete proof to say anything without being attacked. Shit man, I feel like you have to justify everything you say in this thread. As if y'all are the greatest most minds on the internet. Piece of advise......get over yourself.

I don't search the net for quotes and release statements. Its just what I expect to happen. After what other people have said on here and over on the TSA forum. Yes I know there's been nothing official, its just my guess.

I'm not sure what attack you are referring to, but I am a very infrequent poster on this thread. I was just hopeful you would be able to provide a more optimistic assessment and my assumption was that you were more clued in.

This thread is definitely not for the faint of heart or the casually familiar with Bakker's works (and I count myself in both categories), but that's okay. Big place, the internet.

Calibandar, I think the key distinction between ASOIAF and Second Apocalypse is that I have no doubt about the likelihood of the TWOW being published, only about timing. And frustrating though the timing is, and deeply disappointing though it will be, HBO will keeping taking the story forward.

That said - I have sympathy for RSB. I didn't know his Canadian publisher dropped him (see above, being generally not clued in) and I don't think he's been given due recognition.

[unJon]

Who'd have thunk this thread could turn even more macabre and strange?

I think we will be lucky to get TUC in 2015. And no I will not justify that statement.

[Francis Buck]

Given what I've heard from the blog and from folks at the TSA forums, I feel relatively confident that we will get something in 2015. Whether that's all of TUC or half of it or whatever, I have no clue.

Then again, anything could happen. I too am looking forward to TWoW and TUC more than any other books by a long, long shot, and the idea of (hopefully) getting them both in one year makes me a happy boy. If anything I feel slightly more confident in getting TUC than TWoW, but that's partly due to me following the former much more closely. I don't even know when the last update from GRRM came. Does 2015 seem pretty solid for it? What/when was the last word on it?

[Calibandar]

Given what I've heard from the blog and from folks at the TSA forums, I feel relatively confident that we will get something in 2015. Whether that's all of TUC or half of it or whatever, I have no clue.

Then again, anything could happen. I too am looking forward to TWoW and TUC more than any other books by a long, long shot, and the idea of (hopefully) getting them both in one year makes me a happy boy. If anything I feel slightly more confident in getting TUC than TWoW, but that's partly due to me following the former much more closely. I don't even know when the last update from GRRM came. Does 2015 seem pretty solid for it? What/when was the last word on it?

I'm pleased to hear that you think there will be a release next year.

For Winds, 2015 is still an option because:

A) GRRM has been talking up his dedication to finishing it and at least getting book 6 out before the show gets there a lot the last 12 months. It seems like he started late, after ADWD, but now at least is at work and has been for a good while. What's relevant here is that he has a relatively clear schedule up until May next year. With such a clear schedule, he could get a great amount of work done.

B : His turnaround is very short, 3-5 months or so. He could finish the book next July and it will still be on the shelves by the holiday season next year.

It's not based however on any actual info on how far he is, because he has given no info on that whatsoever.

[Hello World]

It's one thing that the Canadian publisher dropped him ( which is odd, midway through the series!) but the fact that we are seeing nothing on the Orbit or Overlook listings, that apparently nothing official has come back, and that Scott said in the blog post it seems like this book isn't as much in certain people's minds as he hoped ( I'm paraphrasing) are all very bad signs.

But at least Penguin dropped him long before he actually finished TUC, so it's not like he handed them the manuscript and they said "that's it, we're done". Although I wonder if that's what happened with the other two. Not that they abandoned him, but that where he takes the story in TUC is so outlandish that those two objected in some way.

[unJon]

I don't know publishing at all, but per Bakker's comments I think it's not as bad as his Canadian publisher "dropping him." More that they aren't creating a special Canadian book but they are planning to still distribute the book from his US publisher. Or something.

[unJon]

Wrong thread.

[Sci-2]

Sci, when u posted about the attractants was that in reference to what I said about Akka being tied to "The whore of fate"? Ive had this feeling that Anasurimbor prophecy is either false or interpreted falsley. I know many have speculated it before. Also, some hold to the theory that we're just gonna see the same story that happened in Seswatha's time. I don't. More than anything I think Kellhus will turn into the antagonist. Remember, " Ever are me deceived." And I think, (at least me) some forget that Kellhus is just a manipulative ass who is tricking people to get what he wants, and that he is utterly ruthless.

Hmmm, I was thinking of final causes that worked independently of deities but the connection of Akka to the Goddess of Fate (named Anagkë) makes sense. The way I was thinking of After determining Before is an "ecosystem" of competing final causes (aka teleology), by which I mean the events toward which objects and beings are directed toward. Basically final causes are a metaphysical explanation for why causality works with any consistency. (More on this philosophical problem here.)

In the way varied factors influence the direction of weather/animals/people/etc in the Before -> After direction, there might be similar final causes - what some would classify as competing prophecies - also drawing the the world toward particular futures. In this scenario I'd assume Anagkë is either the deity best able to influence final causes, or a personification of teleology itself.

Where this plays into the concept of false prophecies within the setting is the fact Aurang - or whoever the Synthese was - makes a distinction between false & true prophecies, while noting that the Consult should be tracking both kinds. This is an odd statement IMO, as it implies Aurang believes in at least one prophecy that he holds to be true - but is this a matter of faith or has the Consult knowledge of the future? And if the other prophecies are false, why pay attention to them? It's not like people of religion X usually concern themselves too deeply with the prophecies of false faiths Z & Y.

This all seems to suggest some beings can sense the final causes at work in the world, sorting out the most likely outcomes. If Kellhus is among their number this might be what separates the Thousandfold Thought from the lesser practice of Probability Trance. For example, I don't think Big Moe could condition the ground Kellhus walked merely by the Probability Trance - there were too many times Kellhus should have died.

Now can Kellhus sense final causes? It seems so, given the risks he was willing to take with Akka meeting up with Mimara, facing off against a Wight and Wutteat. Perhaps Kellhus, via the TTT, knew Fate had chosen Akka to be at a certain place at a certain time in the future.

Not sure this means he is going to be an antagonist, because it's hard to say what the protagonists should be doing. Is the future where the No-God walks a blackhole at this point, dragging all events toward making itself come to pass? Is it good to shut the world via the No-God, so long as the Consult can't make a harem out of it?

[Rhom]

Moving slowly on my reread of WLW, just had the first POV from the White Luck. It's the one where he sees himself before and after and he sees the assassin choking on his own blood as he replaces him and then sees Maithanet expose his throat to him. (I've never understood how people miss this bit...) This is how we are shown that the White Luck arrives at its fated destinations just when he needs to be there.

One thing I noticed for the first time though is the subsequent interaction with Fanayal. He is most certain that he is fated to kill Kellhus. The overlay of these two perspectives seems more than just coincidental. Will the White Luck replace Fanayal?

[Hello World]

He is most certain that he is fated to kill Kellhus.

Where was this passage? Usually when someone feels 'impossibly certain' (or some variation of that), whatever they're certain about comes to pass. However, I don't see how Fanayal can make to the Great Ordeal in time, unless teleportation is involved.

[Rhom]

In the first Malowebi POV chapter of WLW. Fanayal actually says twice that he is fated to kill Kellhus. I think he may have even said that was his doom.

As I mentioned originally, the chapter begins with the first of the cryptic "Gift of Yatwer" passages and then shifts to Malowebi.

I'm mobile and don't have the book in front of me at the moment. Sorry.

[Rhom]

I think Fanayal even suggests that he himself cannot die (at least not yet) because he is the one destined to kill Kellhus.

Yes, so is he deceiving himself? Or could he be the vessel for the WLW?

[Sci-2]

Yet another of the many vague and confusing things going on. I don't even have a guess.

It's hard for me to even envision how Kellhus ends up back in the New Empire.

Perhaps there's someone who can use teleportation, and the WLW can replace them in the timeline.

Looks over at Meppa...