Six Pups in the Snow: A Direwolves Reread

[Manderly's Rat Cook]

The reaction to Ser Illyn is probably largely foreshadowing: he is the one who will execute her father. But he is also kind of scary: with his tongue cut out, he is definitely a grim reaper figure.

I hadn't thought, until reading your nice summary here, about the deliberate juxtaposition of Ser Illyn and The Hound in this scene. Having read the books once already, we know that Ser Illyn will be the last one to use the sword Ice, and that he will use it in a way that is tragic and painful for Sansa. The Hound will become something of a protector for Sansa (and, in a different way, for Arya). The Hound is strongly associated with fire (although he has been a victim of it) and Ser Illyn comes to be associated with Ice (the sword). In this scene, Sansa is caught between them, but has her wolf for comfort and protection. Maybe GRRM is dropping a hint about Sansa's future, where she will be caught between fire and ice but will have no wolf to protect her? Or will her own "ladylike" behavior be her best protection?

Both Ser Illyn and The Hound may represent different forms of The Stranger (of the seven gods). They are both largely unknown to Sansa at this point, so they are literal strangers. They are both associated with death as the stories continue. Eventually we will learn that The Hound's horse is named Stranger.

Very interesting observation! This made me think of how both Ser Ilyn and the Hound have physical aspects of the Stranger.

The Stranger represents death and the unknown, and leads the dead to the other world.^[1][2] Whilst referred to as male, he is neither male nor female.^[1] The Stranger's face has been described as half-human, concealed beneath a hooded mantle.^[3][4] The wooden statue of the Stranger burnt on Dragonstone is carved to look more animal than human.^[5]

Worshippers rarely seek favor from the Stranger, but outcasts sometimes associate themselves with this aspect of god.

Silent Sisters are sometimes referred to as 'Wives of the Stranger'.^{[Citation Needed]} They clothe themselves in grey and keep their faces cowled except for their eyes.^[6]

The House of Black and White contains a public shrine with idols of many death gods, including the Stranger.^[7]

Sandor Clegane's horse is named Stranger.^[8]

The Hound's face is half burned, which one could describe as being only half human.

Tyrion describes the hound like this:

A shadow fell across his face. He turned to find Clegane looming overhead like a cliff. His soot-dark

armor seemed to blot out the sun. He had lowered the visor on his helm. It was fashioned in the likeness

of a snarling black hound, fearsome to behold, but Tyrion had always thought it a great improvement

over Clegane's hideously burned face.

So when he lowers his visor, his face looks more animal than human. He also offers to silence Bran's wolf in this chapter, and later on with Arya he gives the gift of death...

This is also interesting in relation to the UnKiss:

During a meeting with the small council Cersei that promises that before she is done with Sansa Stark she will be “singing to the Stranger, begging for his kiss” ^[9]

Ser Ilyn is mute, which connects him to the Silent Sisters. Sansa literally describes his appearance as how Death is often depicted in our world. She also calls him "the third stranger"

At first Sansa did not notice the third stranger. He did not kneel with the others. He stood to one side,

beside their horses, a gaunt grim man who watched the proceedings in silence. His face was pockmarked

and beardless, with deepset eyes and hollow cheeks. Though he was not an old man, only a few wisps of

hair remained to him, sprouting above his ears, but those he had grown long as a woman's.

She goes on to describe how he looks at her in a very un-human way. As if he can see her soul. The description here, even though described ad 'stripping away her clothes, is in no way sexual.

She waited for an answer, but none came. As the headsman looked at her, his pale colorless eyes

seemed to strip the clothes away from her, and then the skin, leaving her soul naked before him. Still

silent, he turned and walked away.

I can definitely see how they're both impersonations of the stranger.

[Julia H.]

Fascinating. We can also add that - if the theory is correct (it must be correct!) - Sandor will end up as the Gravedigger on the Quiet Isle.

Back on topic, so this is also an encounter between a representative of the Old Gods (Lady) and two representatives of the most terrifying aspect of the Seven. We are in the South, where the Old Gods have little power.

[Ellfoy]

So I did a little research to check if Ghost's eyes were really compared to rubies and I found this:

- First, rubies are often used as ornement to make the eyes of the Lannisters' lions. Besides, according to Tywin "Ruby = fire".

- Second, Ruby is often used to describe Melisandre including her eyes.

- Third, I have found two interesting quotes:

In AGOT, when Jon and Sam are taking their vows before the weirwoods trees :

"The forest floor was carpeted with fallen leaves, bloodred on top, black rot beneath. The wide smooth trunks wre bone pale, and nine faces stared inward. The dried sap that crusted in the eyes was red and hard as ruby".

So here we have a description of weirwood trees with red eyes looking like rubies, the redblood description is used for the dead leaves.

In ADWD, Jon (and Ghost) has an encounter with Melisandre (yes, the famous "May I touch your...wolf ?":

"Jon left out a white breath. "He is not always so..."

"...warm ? Warmth calls to warmth, Jon Snow." Her eyes were two red stars, shining in the dark. At her throat, her ruby gleamed, a third eyes glowing brighter than the others. Jon had seen Ghost's eyes blazing red the same way, when they caught the light just right."

So, Ghost eyes are indirectly described as rubies eyes. Besides, there is an emphasis on the fiery element: "blazing red". The fact that this link between Ghost's eyes and rubies is indirect makes sense IMO regarding R+L=J. Rubies always makes me think of Rhaegar's rubies and all connections between Rhaegar (and fire actually) and Jon should remain indirect, right ? ;)

Mel's ruby being described as a third eyes is extremelly interesting considering the three eyed crow and the "you have to open your third eye" (notice that this one "glows brighter than the others").

[Julia H.]

The ruby symbolism is interesting here.

I wonder if Ghost's eyes being similar to Melisandre's ruby is part of the glamour though. (I need to think about this more.)

Regarding Rhaegar's rubies, the way he dies, those rubies can be associated with blood spilt in battle - royal blood perhaps, but there is a connection.

In the meantime, I must ask your patience: I hope the next chapter will be up during the weekend.

[Julia H.]

Eddard III

Overview

After a four-day search, Arya is finally found and brought before Robert and Cersei. She and Joffrey give different accounts of what happened, and Sansa fails to tell the truth. In Nymeria’s absence, Lady is sentenced to death by the King and is executed by Eddard. The Hound returns with Mycah’s body.

Observations

- Again, there is a lot of animal symbolism in this chapter:

- Lions and a hound are hunting wolves.

- Renly finds the story of “Lion’s Tooth” amusing.

- Renly describes Arya as “a nine-year-old girl the size of a wet rat”.

- Cersei is bloodthirsty.

Analysis

Wolves, lions and dragons

Tension is palpable at the beginning of the chapter. Stark men and the queen’s men compete with each other as they hunt for Arya, Mycah and Nymeria. They are all the unwelcome guests of a Darry, whose “family had fought beneath Rhaegar’s dragon banners”. Thus the dragon is brought into the equation besides wolves and lions.

With king’s men, Darry men, Lannister men, and Stark men all crammed into a castle far too small for them, tensions burned hot and heavy.

The past is obviously not dead, and the one-time allies are now enemies.

The hearing

Lions (Cersei + Joffrey) and wolves (Ned, Arya + Sansa) face each other with the Stag (Robert) acting as a reluctant judge between them. Ned knows the truth from Sansa, who is the key witness. The wolves’ only hope is the pack – Ned stands up for Arya and the truth, and he expects Sansa to do the same. For Sansa, it is the choice between her sister and her prince. It is also a choice between the truth and her prince. In response to the dilemma, she tries to stay out of the conflict.

She blinked at her sister, then at the young prince. “I don’t know,” she said tearfully, looking as though she wanted to bolt. “I don’t remember. Everything happened so fast, I didn’t see…”

Sansa fails to stand by the wolf pack. With her choice she unwittingly dooms their cause. Robert is happy to declare the conflict children’s fight. For a moment it sounds like a reprieve (though of course, nothing is said of Mycah), but Cersei knows one more way to hurt the wolf pack and she triumphantly plays that card in the last moment.

The wolf pelt

“What of the beast that savaged your son?”

“A hundred golden dragons to the man who brings me its skin!”

“The king I’d thought to marry would have laid a wolfskin across my bed before the sun went down.”

“We have a wolf,” Cersei Lannister said. Her voice was very quiet, but her green eyes shone with triumph.

Cersei is an expert at manipulation and rhetoric. She starts with a sentence that the king cannot possibly ignore in front of all the people there: She plays the distressed mother and she reminds Robert of “his son’s” injury. Then she turns into a queen, demanding a wolfskin, “a costly pelt” a royal privilege. Finally, she is the lady demanding chivalry of her lord husband. She knows Robert will not question her right to all those roles in front of his court, especially when he has an easy excuse: Nymeria has not been found. This is exactly the point where Cersei Lannister wanted to get. Notice how she has shifted the focus of her sentences from “the beast that savaged your son” to “a wolfskin” and “a wolf”.

We know the voices of the direwolves made Cersei uneasy in Winterfell. She realizes the importance of the wolves for the Starks. Robert, who is far less perceptive, either does not understand it or does not want to understand it.

“Enough, Ned, I will hear no more. A direwolf is a savage beast. Sooner or later it would have turned on your girl the same way the other did on my son. Get her a dog, she’ll be happier for it.”

He makes comparisons between Lady and Nymeria, Joffrey and Sansa, wolves and dogs. All of them are false. The irony of the last one is that Joffrey has a “dog” that is much more savage than Sansa’s wolf. (Exactly how savage the Hound is we see at the end of this chapter.) Sandor will “replace” both Lady and Nymeria for a while (as protector), but will either of the girls be happier for this? Hardly.

The sentence

It is a moment of bitter awakening when Sansa realizes what those words mean.

“He doesn’t mean Lady, does he?”

It is interesting that Sansa says “he” not “she” or “they”. Of course, technically, the main responsibility is the king’s, so in that sense the “he” is justified, but I think it also suggests that Sansa is still blind to the queen’s malice. (Has Old Nan never told her tales of evil witch queens?)

Arya, who a few minutes earlier was fighting Sansa, stands up for Lady’s innocence. She is still defending the pack (and justice), not even Sansa’a betrayal could change that.

Sansa, on the other hand, only wants to save Lady:

“… it wasn’t Lady, it was Nymeria, Arya did it, you can’t, it wasn’t Lady, don’t let them hurt Lady…”

Ned tries to plead with Robert:

“Please, Robert. For the love you bear me. For the love you bore my sister. Please.”

The king apparently hates the position he is in, but he does not have the courage to defy Cersei, not even when Ned mentions Lyanna.

(I can’t help wondering how it would have gone if Ned had used the same words to plead for mercy for a certain boy child who was very important to Lyanna, but who represented a potential danger to Robert’s claim to the throne.)

“Do it yourself then, Robert,” he said in a voice cold and sharp as steel. “At least have the courage to do it yourself.”

The wisdom of the First Men reappears here: It is not so easy to doom the innocent to death when you look into their eyes and know they do not deserve death. It requires courage to take responsibility for your decisions, and in this sense Robert is a coward.

Lady

Ned decides to “give the gift” to Lady rather than let her suffer in the hands of the king’s headsman.

“She is of the North. She deserves better than a butcher.”

These words remind me of Ygritte’s words:

“It’s not the when o’ dying that matters, it’s the how of it, Jon Snow.”

The description of Lady, for the last time, is heart wrenching:

She was the smallest of the litter, the prettiest, the most gentle and trusting.

Ned himself is gentle and tender in this scene.

Shortly, Jory brought him Ice.

The author does not need to describe the execution scene to make it chilling.

Ned sends Lady to the North to be buried.

“The Lannister woman shall never have this skin.”

What she has been saved from is highlighted when the Hound returns with poor Mycah.

Dignity in death is provided for Lady.

Sansa

“They won’t die,” Robb said. “We won’t let them die." (Bran I.) The quote (Robb's promise on behalf of all the Stark siblings) brings up the question of Sansa's responsibility.

Rereading the chapter, I have had the growing feeling that Lady’s death is punishment for what Sansa did: She let down the pack, she did not stand by her family when they needed her. Did she realize what the consequences for Arya could be? My impression is that she simply wanted to stay out of the conflict.

“I don’t know.” “I don’t remember.” “I didn’t see.”

“The North remembers…" How many times have we heard this? Also, here are Lord Commander Mormont’s words:

“We ought to have known. We ought to have remembered.”

“The First Men built the Wall, and it’s said they remember things otherwise forgotten.”

Sansa chooses to be blind, she chooses not to know, she does not remember. She thinks she can stay neutral, but the price of not taking part is high. She loses her wolf, but she also loses her innocence, and though it does not happen overnight, she will lose her trusting gentleness, the qualities that best describe Lady.

[Mithras]

Very good work Julia H. and yeah, Sansa was a great disappointment here. It is not surprising that most of the readers hate her in the first book and have a hard time forgiving her. This was not a good start. George wanted us to root for Arya and mislike Sansa in the first book.

[Franziska]

Great Job Julia H. A few of my own thoughts about this chapter:

“The girl is as wild as that filthy animal of hers,” Cersei Lannister said.

Again Arya is compared to her direwolf. But if Arya and Nymeria are filthy, what are Sansa and Lady, dear Cersei? Too bad Cersei has now own POV before AFFC.

The king was not in mood for more argument. “Enough, Ned, I will hear no more. A direwolf is a savage beast. Sooner or later it would have turned on your girl the same way the other did on my son. Get her a dog, she’ll be happier for it.”

That was when Sansa finally seemed to comprehend. Her eyes were frightened as they went to her father. “He doesn’t mean Lady, does he?” She saw the truth on his face. “No,” she said. “No, not Lady, Lady didn’t bite anybody, she’s good…”

Why do so many people in Westeros believe, a direwolf and a dog could be compared in any way?

And how is Robert able to believe, that Sansa could be happy about a dog? She was happy with her wolf and a dog would be an all-time remembrance about Lady’s death and how it came to that.

They were all staring at him, but it was Sansa’s look that cut. “She is of the north. She deserves better than a butcher.”

I always found this line noteworthy. Yes, Ned does the killing for himself because of Sansa but the reason he tells Cersei contains more. Lady is of the North and if it has to be, she will die the northern way. The northmen will keep to their tradition no matter where they are.

He left the room with his eyes burning and his daughter’s wails echoing in his ears, and found the direwolf pup where they chained her. Ned sat beside her for a while. “Lady,” he said, tasting the name. He had never paid much attention to the names the children had picked, but looking at her now, he knew that Sansa had chosen well. She was the smallest of the litter, the prettiest, the most gentle and trusting. She looked at him with bright golden eyes, and he ruffled her thick grey fur.

There were so many discussions about the fact that Lady was killed and if it means an early death of Sansa. Yes I think it does, but not in a physical way.

Somehow I think, even if it is sad for Sansa, Lady's death was inevitable. Not because Cersei didn't want the direwolves at the Red Keep but for Sansa's development. At this point in her life, Sansa is always relying on other people’s deeds or opinions. Her septa taught her to be well-behaved, to fit in society, to be… well… a Lady. It seems the septa never encouraged Sansa to think for herself or to be a little bit more independent. Sansa’s naiveté is not just a product of her youth, it is also caused by the septa’s lessons.

Sansa named her direwolf “Lady”. This is a synonym for the expected behavior of a highborn girl/woman. We know, that in the future Sansa will become stronger, more wolfish and less ladylike. (not always but more often)

I think her change begins here with Lady’s death. From now on she can’t any longer rely on her wolf to solve the problem for her, to be strong for her; she has to be her own direwolf. So to say, the Lady WITHIN Sansa is killed.

He had never paid much attention to the names the children had picked, but looking at her now, he knew that Sansa had chosen well. She was the smallest of the litter, the prettiest, the most gentle and trusting. She looked at him with bright golden eyes, and he ruffled her thick grey fur.

There is mentioned in Sansa’s chapter, that the direwolves and their owner have similarities. And I would say, it works both ways.

Ned tells us here, that Lady is the smallest, the most gentle and trusting of the litter and we know Sansa is also the most trusting of the Stark siblings. BUT we have seen how aggressive Lady acted towards Ilyn Payne and the Hound. Nevertheless she IS a direwolf and she could be dangerous.

So even if Sansa is trusting and kind and so on, we should never underestimate her. One day she will be as deadly as Arya, but in her own way.

Sansa

“They won’t die,” Robb said. “We won’t let them die." (Bran I.) The quote (Robb's promise on behalf of all the Stark siblings) brings up the question of Sansa's responsibility.

Rereading the chapter, I have had the growing feeling that Lady’s death is punishment for what Sansa did: She let down the pack, she did not stand by her family when they needed her. Did she realize what the consequences for Arya could be? My impression is that she simply wanted to stay out of the conflict.

“I don’t know.” “I don’t remember.” “I didn’t see.”

“The North remembers…" How many times have we heard this? Also, here are Lord Commander Mormont’s words:

“We ought to have known. We ought to have remembered.”

“The First Men built the Wall, and it’s said they remember things otherwise forgotten.”

Sansa chooses to be blind, she chooses not to know, she does not remember. She thinks she can stay neutral, but the price of not taking part is high. She loses her wolf, but she also loses her innocence, and though it does not happen overnight, she will lose her trusting gentleness, the qualities that best describe Lady.

I never thought about this in that way, but actually it is a good point. Yes, until now Sansa never cared much for the northern traditions, but I also wonder how often Ned talked to her about this.

Cat is from the south and I guess Septa Mordane and Maester Luwin as well (though I might be wrong), so neither of them knows the traditions of the First Men.

In that case teaching the kids about the northern way would be Ned’s business. We know that Robb and Jon learned a lot about their traditions since Jon recalls often his lessons. In the opening chapter Ned’s talking to Bran after he saw a beheading for the first time; Bran just has received the age to learn the way of the First Man.

But has Ned ever cared to teach his daughters about it? The only lesson Arya is ever recalling in future chapters is the one about the wolfpack (correct me if I’m wrong) and that one is still six chapters ahead. Somehow I think neither Sansa nor Arya have ever learned about the First Men, so I can’t fully blame Sansa for acting the way she did.

[RainGhost]

Very good job Julia H. A sad chapter :(

It was this scene plus the previous one with Joffrey that made me love Arya. I think I’m with most people in that this chapter did not endear Sansa to me but looking back on it I can see that she is put in a really difficult position. She is betrothed to Joffrey and he would be pretty pissed at her if she calls him a liar in front of the entire court. However, she could side with Joffrey and condemn Arya but she doesn’t.

I know there are a lot of varying views on this issue but I don’t necessarily see it as a punishment for Sansa, at least not one that she deserves. They’ve barely crossed the Neck and already Sansa and Arya have to choose between “wolfish ways” and “southron ways”. Arya clearly embraces her wolfish side and rejects any southron influences, confirming her loyalty to the pack but making herself very unpopular with Cersei and Joffrey, putting her in danger. Her wolf survives but in order for her to live like a southron lady in King's Landing, she has to separate physically from her. Sansa doesn’t choose; she wants to be everybody’s friend, wants everyone to get on and wants to be a wolf and a southron lady, a Stark and a Baratheon/Lannister. It doesn’t work. She can’t have it both ways. By trying to be both she ends up being neither and loses her wolfish half completely. This should serve as a warning to her (and Ned) but unfortunately she doesn’t get the hint until it’s too late.

All the direwolves except Ghost and Shaggydog have golden eyes but they're always described differently. I think Lady "bright" eyes here represent Sansa's optimism in her new life, Lady's gentleness and trust etc.

Ned never had a direwolf but his Stark/northern/wolfish side is very apparent in this chapter, both with his references to the wisdom of the First Men and the fact that he gets pretty angry and basically calls the king a coward in front of the entire court when his pups are threatened. Cersei, similarly, is acting like a lioness protecting her cubs and as much as we hate her for this, she is being very sensible. Direwolves are dangerous animals and had they gone to court, they would have done some serious damage. Having direwolves as pets is not normal, whatever the Starks may think, and direwolves do not belong in the south.

[Franziska]

George wanted us to root for Arya and mislike Sansa in the first book.

I don't think GRRM wanted us to mislike Sansa. Most people just did choose to do so.

When I read the series for the first time, I also was annoyed by Sansa until the chapter where Ned dies, after that I just felt sorry for her. On the second read I remembered again, that Sansa is just 11 years old. Even if this books are located in the Middle Ages 11-years-old girls are still children no matter what they think of themselves.

When I remember of all the stupid stuff I made when I was eleven... sheesh Sansa is pretty mature. We read this book as adults and think: "Girl, why are you acting that way?" but she's just a kid in her preteen years. How would we have acted with that age?

[Julia H.]

Thanks for the compliments.

Very good work Julia H. and yeah, Sansa was a great disappointment here. It is not surprising that most of the readers hate her in the first book and have a hard time forgiving her. This was not a good start. George wanted us to root for Arya and mislike Sansa in the first book.

I rooted for Arya early on – part of the reason must have been that we have her POV before Sansa’s, we see her in Jon’s POV as well, and we learn about Sansa from Arya for the first time. But as I was reading Sansa’s POV, I was beginning to understand her, too. She is the type that goes to great lengths to avoid conflict, and that especially abhors conflict between her loved ones. She feels the quarrel between Arya and Joffrey spoiled something that could have been as beautiful as a song, something that could have been her song – and in her naivety she does not realize what is at stake. (Nor does Arya, by the way, but, on the one hand, she has this fierce loyalty to her family, and, on the other hand, her friend and her direwolf are in danger anyway.) Sansa does not want to antagonize anyone, so she refuses to bear witness to the truth, and she has to pay for it.

Great Job Julia H. A few of my own thoughts about this chapter:

Again Arya is compared to her direwolf. But if Arya and Nymeria are filthy, what are Sansa and Lady, dear Cersei? Too bad Cersei has now own POV before AFFC.

Why do so many people in Westeros believe, a direwolf and a dog could be compared in any way?

And how is Robert able to believe, that Sansa could be happy about a dog? She was happy with her wolf and a dog would be an all-time remembrance about Lady’s death and how it came to that.

Those are just empty words of “comfort”, said to assuage Robert’s own guilty conscience.

I always found this line noteworthy. Yes, Ned does the killing for himself because of Sansa but the reason he tells Cersei contains more. Lady is of the North and if it has to be, she will die the northern way. The northmen will keep to their tradition no matter where they are.

"She is of the north. She deserves better than a butcher.”

This line could be a subtle reference to Sansa and Joffrey as well.

There were so many discussions about the fact that Lady was killed and if it means an early death of Sansa. Yes I think it does, but not in a physical way.

Somehow I think, even if it is sad for Sansa, Lady's death was inevitable. Not because Cersei didn't want the direwolves at the Red Keep but for Sansa's development. At this point in her life, Sansa is always relying on other people’s deeds or opinions. Her septa taught her to be well-behaved, to fit in society, to be… well… a Lady. It seems the septa never encouraged Sansa to think for herself or to be a little bit more independent. Sansa’s naiveté is not just a product of her youth, it is also caused by the septa’s lessons.

Sansa named her direwolf “Lady”. This is a synonym for the expected behavior of a highborn girl/woman. We know, that in the future Sansa will become stronger, more wolfish and less ladylike. (not always but more often)

I think her change begins here with Lady’s death. From now on she can’t any longer rely on her wolf to solve the problem for her, to be strong for her; she has to be her own direwolf. So to say, the Lady WITHIN Sansa is killed.

Excellent point.

Also, in a way, both Sansa and Arya lose their wolves, though the warging connection between Arya and Nymeria remains. Direwolves don’t go south of the Trident.

I never thought about this in that way, but actually it is a good point. Yes, until now Sansa never cared much for the northern traditions, but I also wonder how often Ned talked to her about this.

Cat is from the south and I guess Septa Mordane and Maester Luwin as well (though I might be wrong), so neither of them knows the traditions of the First Men.

In that case teaching the kids about the northern way would be Ned’s business. We know that Robb and Jon learned a lot about their traditions since Jon recalls often his lessons. In the opening chapter Ned’s talking to Bran after he saw a beheading for the first time; Bran just has received the age to learn the way of the First Man.

But has Ned ever cared to teach his daughters about it? The only lesson Arya is ever recalling in future chapters is the one about the wolfpack (correct me if I’m wrong) and that one is still six chapters ahead. Somehow I think neither Sansa nor Arya have ever learned about the First Men, so I can’t fully blame Sansa for acting the way she did.

I didn’t really think of it in terms of Sansa knowing the northern traditions. Loyalty to one’s family can be learned in many ways – just think of the Tully words: Family, Duty, Honour. It was Sansa’s own father who told her to tell the truth, and it was Sansa’s own sister who was falsely accused. They were in the King’s Landing, where they were much more vulnerable than in Winterfell, and the accusers were very powerful and influential. It wouldn’t have taken so much to understand what was the right thing to do had it not been for Sansa’s naivety and her infatuation with her prince.

The point that “the North remembers” is probably not a tradition in the original sense of the word, but a northern trait that has importance in the story with regard to unity and survival (among other things), therefore the fact that Sansa refuses to remember must have some significance here. Later, when she builds her snow castle, it will be about remembering.

Very good job Julia H. A sad chapter :(

It was this scene plus the previous one with Joffrey that made me love Arya. I think I’m with most people in that this chapter did not endear Sansa to me but looking back on it I can see that she is put in a really difficult position. She is betrothed to Joffrey and he would be pretty pissed at her if she calls him a liar in front of the entire court. However, she could side with Joffrey and condemn Arya but she doesn’t.

I know there are a lot of varying views on this issue but I don’t necessarily see it as a punishment for Sansa, at least not one that she deserves. They’ve barely crossed the Neck and already Sansa and Arya have to choose between “wolfish ways” and “southron ways”. Arya clearly embraces her wolfish side and rejects any southron influences, confirming her loyalty to the pack but making herself very unpopular with Cersei and Joffrey, putting her in danger. Her wolf survives but in order for her to live like a southron lady in King's Landing, she has to separate physically from her. Sansa doesn’t choose; she wants to be everybody’s friend, wants everyone to get on and wants to be a wolf and a southron lady, a Stark and a Baratheon/Lannister. It doesn’t work. She can’t have it both ways. By trying to be both she ends up being neither and loses her wolfish half completely. This should serve as a warning to her (and Ned) but unfortunately she doesn’t get the hint until it’s too late.

All the direwolves except Ghost and Shaggydog have golden eyes but they're always described differently. I think Lady "bright" eyes here represent Sansa's optimism in her new life, Lady's gentleness and trust etc.

Ned never had a direwolf but his Stark/northern/wolfish side is very apparent in this chapter, both with his references to the wisdom of the First Men and the fact that he gets pretty angry and basically calls the king a coward in front of the entire court when his pups are threatened. Cersei, similarly, is acting like a lioness protecting her cubs and as much as we hate her for this, she is being very sensible. Direwolves are dangerous animals and had they gone to court, they would have done some serious damage. Having direwolves as pets is not normal, whatever the Starks may think, and direwolves do not belong in the south.

Very good observations. With regard to the bolded, I think “being punished” and “deserving punishment” are two different things. Loyalty is essential if the pack is to survive, thus disloyalty results in dire consequences, which can be seen as punishment or at least divine (or poetic) justice. It does not have to mean that the person (in this case Sansa) deserves to be punished so severely, in the sense that she is bad or immoral. However, she did make an important bad decision, which had consequences, even if she did not deserve them. She did not defend her sister’s direwolf, so she lost her own. We can understand her reasons, we can sympathize with her, but her choice still has consequences, and she will have to live with them (and learn from them).

[DireWolfSpirit]

Very good observations. With regard to the bolded, I think being punished and deserving punishment are two different things.

Loyalty is essential if the pack is to survive, thus disloyalty results in dire consequences, which can be seen as punishment or at least divine (or poetic) justice.

It does not have to mean that the person (in this case Sansa) to be punished so severely, in the sense that she is bad or immoral.

However, she did make an important decision, which had consequences, even if she did not deserve them.

She did not defend her sisters direwolf, so she lost her own.

We can understand her reasons, we can sympathize with her, but her choice still has consequences, and she will have to live with them (and learn from them).

I agree strongly with this.

G.R.R.M. repeats these "severe consequences for the slightlest of missteps"

for each of the Starks as the narrative unfolds also.

Robb wins all his battles yet still loses the war by failing to marry a Frey.

Ned ending up beheaded for doing a job he didn't even want.

Bran ignoring Catelyn's pleas for "No more climbing!" (This was actually the first example of "extreme consequences" not necessarily matching the misstep.)

Catelyn also suffers from choices and pays severely.

So it's not just Sansa,

it's literally the whole House of Stark that gets these dramatic ,

horrible , consequences along the way, its thematic.

[Franziska]

Those are just empty words of “comfort”, said to assuage Robert’s own guilty conscience.

Yes, I know. But that doesn't make it better. This is one of the few points I agree with Cersei. Robert has not the balls to stand up and do what's right. After all he IS the king. One word of him and everyone has to obey, even his wife but he is to week to do so. Well but thats not the point of this topic.

Direwolves don’t go south of the Trident.

Well actually, Nymeria is going south the Trident. IIRC she's somewhere around Harrenhal from ACOK til ADWD, but then she is referred as "monstrous" and other things by the people.

I didn’t really think of it in terms of Sansa knowing the northern traditions. Loyalty to one’s family can be learned in many ways – just think of the Tully words: Family, Duty, Honour. It was Sansa’s own father who told her to tell the truth, and it was Sansa’s own sister who was falsely accused. They were in the King’s Landing, where they were much more vulnerable than in Winterfell, and the accusers were very powerful and influential. It wouldn’t have taken so much to understand what was the right thing to do had it not been for Sansa’s naivety and her infatuation with her prince.

The point that “the North remembers” is probably not a tradition in the original sense of the word, but a northern trait that has importance in the story with regard to unity and survival (among other things), therefore the fact that Sansa refuses to remember must have some significance here. Later, when she builds her snow castle, it will be about remembering.

I agree. No I don't approve Sansa's decision to "misremember" but I can understand her choice; after all she's a young girl and young girls make mistakes. She made her choice and paid the price for it. But I am certain, she would have paid the same price, if she had chosen to tell the truth or to lie.

[Julia H.]

Yes, I know. But that doesn't make it better. This is one of the few points I agree with Cersei. Robert has not the balls to stand up and do what's right. After all he IS the king. One word of him and everyone has to obey, even his wife but he is to week to do so. Well but thats not the point of this topic.

I wasn't actually defending Robert. I didn't say that it made anything better.

Well actually, Nymeria is going south the Trident. IIRC she's somewhere around Harrenhal from ACOK til ADWD, but then she is referred as "monstrous" and other things by the people.

All right then. It seemed to me that there might be a connection between the suggestion that the direwolves belong to the Old Gods and the fact that they don't thrive in the South, where the Old Gods are not so powerful, or at least that they don't go very far from the North. Of course, Nymeria will have quite a successful "wolf career" in the South, only not in the way she was perhaps meant to. Anyway, a large part of the Riverlands will side with Robb, so it might be symbolic that a direwolf actually thrives there. None of them gets to King's Landing, however.

I agree. No I don't approve Sansa's decision to "misremember" but I can understand her choice; after all she's a young girl and young girls make mistakes. She made her choice and paid the price for it. But I am certain, she would have paid the same price, if she had chosen to tell the truth or to lie.

I'm not at all certain - but, of course, we'll never know.

[DireWolfSpirit]

Something i find interesting from this chapters scenes is that the Arya/Sansa tension is never really resolved completely.

There's this from wiki-woiaf

The events cause a deep resentment in Arya against Cersei, Joffrey and the Hound. She believes in Jeyne Poole's elaborated version of the story, where Mycah's body was cut in so many pieces that, when the sack containing the remains was given to Mycah's father, the butcher believed he was handed a slaughtered pig. Arya is also angry with Sansa for not telling the truth about what happened and with her father and his men for allowing Mycah to be killed. She also feels guilt over his death, assuming that nothing would have happened to the butcher's boy if she hadn't talked him into practicing sword fighting. When she tells her father about this, Lord Eddard consoles her, explaining that this is solely the guilt of the Hound and of the cruel woman he serves.[4]

Following the attack on Lord Eddard by Lannister men led by Ser Jaime Lannister, in which several Stark guards are killed, Arya says to Sansa that Jaime should be beheaded for this, as should the Hound for killing Mycah. When Sansa insists that the Hound is Joffrey's sworn shield and that Arya and Mycah attacked Joffrey, Arya calls her a liar.[5]

We readers are left wondering what the mindset really is between Sansa and Arya.

They seem to have some unresolved issues.

[Julia H.]

Something i find interesting from this chapters scenes is that the Arya/Sansa tension is never really resolved completely.

There's this from wiki-woiaf

The events cause a deep resentment in Arya against Cersei, Joffrey and the Hound. She believes in Jeyne Poole's elaborated version of the story, where Mycah's body was cut in so many pieces that, when the sack containing the remains was given to Mycah's father, the butcher believed he was handed a slaughtered pig. Arya is also angry with Sansa for not telling the truth about what happened and with her father and his men for allowing Mycah to be killed. She also feels guilt over his death, assuming that nothing would have happened to the butcher's boy if she hadn't talked him into practicing sword fighting. When she tells her father about this, Lord Eddard consoles her, explaining that this is solely the guilt of the Hound and of the cruel woman he serves.[4]

Following the attack on Lord Eddard by Lannister men led by Ser Jaime Lannister, in which several Stark guards are killed, Arya says to Sansa that Jaime should be beheaded for this, as should the Hound for killing Mycah. When Sansa insists that the Hound is Joffrey's sworn shield and that Arya and Mycah attacked Joffrey, Arya calls her a liar.[5]

We readers are left wondering what the mindset really is between Sansa and Arya.

They seem to have some unresolved issues.

Their quarrels could have remained just childish quarrels between siblings, something they would have grown out of eventually if they had not been involved in these very serious situations. I really hope they will meet again and perhaps resolve these issues.

It seems Catelyn and her sister were best friends in their childhood, yet as adults they changed and became very different persons with very different goals. It would be great if the relationship between Sansa and Arya developed in the opposite way and they became friends / allies as adults.

[Seams]

Why do so many people in Westeros believe, a direwolf and a dog could be compared in any way?

And how is Robert able to believe, that Sansa could be happy about a dog? She was happy with her wolf and a dog would be an all-time remembrance about Ladys death and how it came to that.

There are no empty words in these novels, I think. The recommendation that Ned get a dog for Sansa displays ignorance of the difference between a direwolf and a hound or dog, of course, but there is literary irony at work here because The Hound (Sandor Clegane) becomes so important to Sansa's story line. I have just been listening to the audio version of AFFC and Sansa as Alayne recalls that The Hound took a kiss and a song from her, and left her with a bloody cloak. The song, kiss and cloak (not to mention blood) are all super-charged symbols in ASOIAF.

On a related AFFC note, Brienne is bitten by Biter while he is wearing The Hound's helmet: unlike the direwolf Lady, who "didn't bite anybody," Biter eats a chunk of Brienne's cheek. Brienne fights back as best she can and is saved by Renly's doppelganger, Gendry, who thrusts a sword through the back of Biter's neck. Later, after Brienne dreams that she has bitten off her own tongue (reference to Ser Illyn?) she is told that she killed a dog named Dog (who was traveling with Septon Meribald). I think there is a strong connection between Brienne, who is both a warrior and a maiden, and Arya and Sansa. I hope she will come back strong in the next book and we can sort out some more of the connections.

Back to Sandor/The Hound: it's also no coincidence that the boy killed by The Hound in the Sansa I chapter is regularly referred to as "the butcher's boy." Even though Mycah is an innocent caught up in the murderous Game of Thrones, GRRM's implication seems to be that a butcher is somehow part of the slaughter and bloodshed. Maybe GRRM is slyly referring to The Hound as "the butcher," and the boy he murdered becomes a sort of albatross around his neck (i.e., the unjustified killing will haunt him). Or maybe the label is GRRM's way of showing that the bloodshed throughout Westeros is similar to the constant slaughter of animals for the feasts of the upper classes.

I think we should keep a careful eye on The Hound as a related character in the direwolf re-read. His role as an imperfect protector for Sansa shows that he is not a substitute for a direwolf, but I believe there is an attempt to create a wolf/hound/dog comparison.

[Julia H.]

There are no empty words in these novels, I think. The recommendation that Ned get a dog for Sansa displays ignorance of the difference between a direwolf and a hound or dog, of course, but there is literary irony at work here because The Hound (Sandor Clegane) becomes so important to Sansa's story line. I have just been listening to the audio version of AFFC and Sansa as Alayne recalls that The Hound took a kiss and a song from her, and left her with a bloody cloak. The song, kiss and cloak (not to mention blood) are all super-charged symbols in ASOIAF.

<snip>

I think we should keep a careful eye on The Hound as a related character in the direwolf re-read. His role as an imperfect protector for Sansa shows that he is not a substitute for a direwolf, but I believe there is an attempt to create a wolf/hound/dog comparison.

Well, since I used the "empty words" expression, let me reply to this. What the characters mean by their particular words and what the author's intention is with the same words are two different things. The dog - hound - Sandor connection has been made before (I also referred to it in my original post on this chapter, where I mentioned the quote in question). The connection is obviously significant in the novel. However, when the question is what Robert means by the suggestion that Sansa should get a dog instead of Lady - then those are just empty words on Robert's part. Robert as a character is not trying to foreshadow anything. I'm not even convinced that it is ignorance he shows here. I think he is trying to make his friend's request seem unimportant and unreasonable so the refusal does not seem so cruel. It's the kind of argument that sometimes adults use when they tell a child he / she will get another doggy soon so there is no reason to cry, but of course, it never works like this, not even in the case of children, and when the adults think about it, they should know it. Sometimes you cannot offer real comfort. Robert, however, could comfort his friend's daughter, but he does not want to because it would mean defying Cersei further. All Robert is doing is trying to save face.

In a broader context, I agree, this line is part of "the attempt to create a wolf/hound/dog comparison", which basically started in Chapter I.

[Seams]

The wolf pelt

Enough, Ned, I will hear no more. A direwolf is a savage beast. Sooner or later it would have turned on your girl the same way the other did on my son. Get her a dog, shell be happier for it.

He makes comparisons between Lady and Nymeria, Joffrey and Sansa, wolves and dogs. All of them are false. The irony of the last one is that Joffrey has a dog that is much more savage than Sansas wolf. (Exactly how savage the Hound is we see at the end of this chapter.) Sandor will replace both Lady and Nymeria for a while (as protector), but will either of the girls be happier for this? Hardly.

I should have gone all the way back to review your original post and acknowledged that you had also commented on the role of The Hound in the direwolf motif. Sorry. It had been awhile since I had read your chapter summary. My latest thoughts began to evolve after reading responses to Franziska's post (as well as my recent exposure to the AFFC developments) but I didn't go back to the beginning of the discussion. You did a great job on a chapter that has a ton of significance for the direwolves and the overall plot.

The sentence

Ned tries to plead with Robert:

Please, Robert. For the love you bear me. For the love you bore my sister. Please.

The king apparently hates the position he is in, but he does not have the courage to defy Cersei, not even when Ned mentions Lyanna.

(I cant help wondering how it would have gone if Ned had used the same words to plead for mercy for a certain boy child who was very important to Lyanna, but who represented a potential danger to Roberts claim to the throne.)

Another layer of meaning in Robert's decision here is that he is choosing his marriage bond over his bond with his chosen "brother". We know that Robert defies Cersei all the time by sleeping around (although maybe he tries to be sneaky and doesn't flaunt his infidelity to her face). So it's sort of a tragic flaw that he chooses to side with Cersei this one time.

The Queen has put King Robert in the position of choosing between his oldest friend (raised as his brother when they were wards) and his (nominal) wife. GRRM soon shows similar conflicts for people like Jon Snow (choosing between being a Brother of the Night's Watch and going to help Robb Stark) and Stannis (choosing between his desire to be king and working out a deal with Renly). Robert may not know it, but when Cersei says, "The king I thought to marry . . . " she is probably referring to Rhaegar (more literary irony for GRRM and the reader, of course, but lost on the people in Westeros hearing her say the words).

I believe you are absolutely right on to compare Ned's plea to Robert's loyalty and love to the plea he might have made for the life of Lyanna's infant (if that is what he is). The constant references to brothers, sisters and twins; mothers, fathers, bastards and wards; and the nature of arranged and loveless marriages is playing with readers' notions of what it means to make an oath or to love someone. Could Robert have really loved Lyanna or did she run off because she knew he would be an awful husband? Robert has just asked Ned to give up his family and home to take a job he doesn't want. Does Robert's easy dismissal of Ned's request in this chapter expose Robert's shallow and one-sided notion of loyalty?

Ned and Robert's last conversation comes as Robert is dying. Robert concedes that Ned is right to have opposed the assassination plan aimed at Daenerys, saying it is wrong to kill children. So maybe that partly answers your point about Ned effectively appealing to Robert for the life of a child: Robert recognizes that Ned is right, but his recognition comes too late.

The sentencing and death of Lady open up a big conflict and tie into many plot complications yet to come.

[Julia H.]

The Queen has put King Robert in the position of choosing between his oldest friend (raised as his brother when they were wards) and his (nominal) wife. GRRM soon shows similar conflicts for people like Jon Snow (choosing between being a Brother of the Night's Watch and going to help Robb Stark) and Stannis (choosing between his desire to be king and working out a deal with Renly). Robert may not know it, but when Cersei says, "The king I thought to marry . . . " she is probably referring to Rhaegar (more literary irony for GRRM and the reader, of course, but lost on the people in Westeros hearing her say the words).

Excellent observation and a connection that completely escaped my notice. :) I love the idea that Cersei may be referring to Rhaegar! (To be honest, it makes me smile, as it reminds me of a certain comical cartoon character in my country, a middle-aged woman who keeps nagging at her husband all the time, saying how she should have married her other boyfriend.) It would be even more interesting if Robert understood her meaning. It is not impossible that Cersei has let him know (e.g. during a quarrel) that she would rather have married Rhaegar. Robert hates Rhaegar, and such a sentence from his (nominal / official) wife would be really hurtful. While Cersei is offended because Robert desired Lyanna more than her, Robert may be hurt by the idea than Cersei still admires Rhaegar. Neither of them loves the other one, but they are both proud and possessive.

[Arya Targaryen]

To be honest, it makes me smile, as it reminds me of a certain comical cartoon character in my country, a middle-aged woman who keeps nagging at her husband all the time, saying how she should have married her other boyfriend.

LOL, Are you referring to...

..."Mért nem a Huffnágel Pistihez mentem feleségül?"

Anyway, great topic, and I never would have thought about that sentence being about Rhaegar. Great obsevation, Seams! :thumbsup: