Jump to content

R+L = J v.109


BearQueen87

Recommended Posts

...why?

There could be any number of reasons, we know so little about this tournament...

Perhaps so that R could crown L the queen of love & beauty, steal her heart & break up the marriage pact between the conspiring houses...

Things did not go as planned, but it might have worked had the king not been Mad...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, clearly the Harrenhal tournament can be explained without recourse to anybody rigging anything, though I don't subscribe to the "Jorah parallel" myself. My point in all this was merely to highlight the fact that Selmy's reflection, in its context, is suggestive that something else might be going on - and I stand by that, though I understand that many won't agree. I'm not putting forward a theory, or claiming the comment proves anything at all (not even close)... but as written it certainly raises the question in my mind - and I find it an interesting idea, worth considering. Obviously there's much yet to be revealed with respect to that tourney, and allegations have already been floated that all was not what it appeared to be. Time will tell, I suppose...

Excellent conclusion... Something shady has been going on at every other historical tournament that GRRM has shared any significant detail of...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Excellent conclusion... Something shady has been going on at every other historical tournament that GRRM has shared any significant detail of...

The "shady"ness of HH is that Rhaegar was trying to pull together support to depose Aerys. At least dipping his toe in the water.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Excellent conclusion... Something shady has been going on at every other historical tournament that GRRM has shared any significant detail of...

What? Every tournament has had something "shady" going on? What exactly does "shady" mean here? If you mean something significant happened there, well duh, otherwise why would they be mentioned? If you mean every tournament was rigged so this one was too, uh, you're going to need to justify that position. If you just mean something out of the ordinary was going on at the tournament, we really don't need to go looking too hard to find weird stuff happening at the Harrenhall tournament

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What? Every tournament has had something "shady" going on? What exactly does "shady" mean here? If you mean something significant happened there, well duh, otherwise why would they be mentioned? If you mean every tournament was rigged so this one was too, uh, you're going to need to justify that position. If you just mean something out of the ordinary was going on at the tournament, we really don't need to go looking too hard to find weird stuff happening at the Harrenhall tournament

He means there's always some underlying political notion to the whole thing, like the whitewalls tourney was an attempt at a blackfyre rebellion. HH was going to be where Rhaegar told the high lords his plans and win their wupport

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yeah, which comes across as suspicious to me. Especially given the way Selmy "hesitates" before mentioning the Harrenhal tourney at all in answer to Dany's question.

Seeing as how the Tourney at Harrenhal was one of the first big steps towards the Rebellion that killed most of Dany's family, I wasn't really surprised that Selmy would hesitate before speaking about the tourney ;)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Seeing as how the Tourney at Harrenhal was one of the first big steps towards the Rebellion that killed most of Dany's family, I wasn't really surprised that Selmy would hesitate before speaking about the tourney ;)

Exactly. Talking Harrenhal is awkward on many levels, and "Rhaegar loved his lady Lyanna and thousands died for it" is just one of them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Seeing as how the Tourney at Harrenhal was one of the first big steps towards the Rebellion that killed most of Dany's family, I wasn't really surprised that Selmy would hesitate before speaking about the tourney ;)

Well, that's true. Though Dany already knows of the tournament in that context. As I read this particular conversation, the subject at issue is tourney wins. So I view Selmy's hesitation in terms of what it might mean, or reflect, on that particular topic. After all, Dany was pushing Selmy (Whitebeard, then) hard for an example of a time Rhaegar won a tournament. And he started his response by saying, basically, that winning tourneys is not that big a deal... trying to talk her down a bit... then when she insists, he hesitates before naming the victory at Harrenhal. The text (from Dany's POV) even says something like, "Dany did not want to hear about Rhaegar being unhorsed." So maybe that was Rhaegar's only tournament victory at all... but then, why didn't Selmy bring it up in the first place, given that it was the only clear answer to Dany's question? Instead, he first acts like Rhaegar had never won a tourney... then only after Dany refuses to let it go does he bring up Harrenhal... "hesitat[ing]," as if he isn't sure it really counts.

It's really not much, all by itself. But in hindsight, it is oddly consistent with the internal doubt we see haunting Selmy late in ADWD.

Just for reference, here's that text:

"Viserys said that our brother won many tourneys."

Arstan bowed his white head respectfully. "It is not meet for me to deny His Grace's words..."

"But?" said Dany sharply. "Tell me. I command it."

"Prince Rhaegar's prowess was unquestioned, but he seldom entered the lists. He never loved the song of swords the way that Robert did, or Jaime Lannister. It was something he had to do, a task the world had set him. He did it well, for he did everything well. That was his nature. But he took no joy in it. Men said that he loved his harp much better than his lance."

"He won some tourneys, surely," said Dany, disappointed.

"When he was young, His Grace rode brilliantly in a tourney at Storm's End, defeating Lord Steffon Baratheon, Lord Jason Mallister, the Red Viper of Dorne, and a mystery knight who proved to be the infamous Simon Toyne, chief of the Kingswood outlaws. He broke twelve lances against Ser Arthur Dayne that day."

“Was he the champion, then?"

"No, Your Grace. That honor went to another knight of the Kingsguard, who unhorsed Prince Rhaegar in the final tilt."

Dany did not want to hear about Rhaegar being unhorsed. "But what tourneys did my brother win?"

"Your Grace." The old man hesitated. "He won the greatest tourney of them all."

"Which was that?" Dany demanded.

"The tourney Lord Whent staged at Harrenhal beside the Gods Eye, in the year of the false spring. A notable event. Besides the jousting, there was a melee in the old style fought between seven teams of knights, as well as archery and axe-throwing, a horse race, a tournament of singers, a mummer show, and many feasts and frolics. Lord Whent was as open handed as he was rich. The lavish purses he proclaimed drew hundreds of challengers. Even your royal father came to Harrenhal, when he had not left the Red Keep for long years. The greatest lords and mightiest champions of the Seven Kingdoms rode in that tourney, and the Prince of Dragonstone bested them all."

"But that was the tourney when he crowned Lyanna Stark as queen of love and beauty!" said Dany. "Princess Elia was there, his wife, and yet my brother gave the crown to the Stark girl, and later stole her away from her betrothed. How could he do that? Did the Dornish woman treat him so ill?"

"It is not for such as me to say what might have been in your brother's heart, Your Grace. The Princess Elia was a good and gracious lady, though her health was ever delicate." (3.42)

(ETA: Added text for reference.)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Excellent conclusion... Something shady has been going on at every other historical tournament that GRRM has shared any significant detail of...

Thanks. And you make an interesting point... Martin definitely uses the tourney (generally) as a venue for political maneuverings and/or developments in the game of thrones. The Dunk and Egg stories make that most plain, but it certainly continues in ASOIAF.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks. And you make an interesting point... Martin definitely uses the tourney (generally) as a venue for political maneuverings and/or developments in the game of thrones. The Dunk and Egg stories make that most plain, but it certainly continues in ASOIAF.

I agree with this, generally, but I don't think there is any secret Semly plot. It comes back to Rhaegar trying to take down Aerys.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The "shady"ness of HH is that Rhaegar was trying to pull together support to depose Aerys. At least dipping his toe in the water.

I agree with this, generally, but I don't think there is any secret Semly plot. It comes back to Rhaegar trying to take down Aerys.

I hear what you're saying, but it's worth pointing out that even this explanation (bolded above) is received through the recollections of Barristan Selmy. The difference, as I see it, is that this idea (that Rhaegar was using the tourney to conspire against Aerys) was not Selmy's own understanding of the event... instead, it's a description of what he believes Varys told the king, and it's the conspiracy theory that he thinks led Aerys to crash the party.

With Varys whispering in his ear, King Aerys became convinced that his son was conspiring to depose him, that Whent's tourney was but a ploy to give Rhaegar a pretext for meeting with as many great lords as could be brought together. Aerys had not set foot outside the Red Keep since Duskendale, yet suddenly he announced that he would accompany Prince Rhaegar to Harrenhal, and everything had gone awry from there. (5.67)

That is not a confirmation that Rhaegar actually was conspiring to depose him... or even what Selmy himself thinks of the idea (though his distaste for Varys gives us a clue). It may be nothing more than a second or third hand report that Varys' stream of information stoked the king's growing paranoia and convinced him he should attend the tourney. In fact - the use of that particular phrase, "King Aerys became convinced," suggests that what the king thought and what was actually the case were not necessarily the same thing. With all that in mind, I would not view this text as a reliable source of information for the "true purpose" of the Harrenhal event.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I hear what you're saying, but it's worth pointing out that even this explanation (bolded above) is received through the recollections of Barristan Selmy. The difference, as I see it, is that this idea (that Rhaegar was using the tourney to conspire against Aerys) was not Selmy's own understanding of the event... instead, it's a description of what he believes Varys told the king, and it's the conspiracy theory that he thinks led Aerys to crash the party.

With Varys whispering in his ear, King Aerys became convinced that his son was conspiring to depose him, that Whent's tourney was but a ploy to give Rhaegar a pretext for meeting with as many great lords as could be brought together. Aerys had not set foot outside the Red Keep since Duskendale, yet suddenly he announced that he would accompany Prince Rhaegar to Harrenhal, and everything had gone awry from there. (5.67)

That is not a confirmation that Rhaegar actually was conspiring to depose him... or even what Selmy himself thinks of the idea (though his distaste for Varys gives us a clue). It may be nothing more than a second or third hand report that Varys' stream of information stoked the king's growing paranoia and convinced him he should attend the tourney. In fact - the use of that particular phrase, "King Aerys became convinced," suggests that what the king thought and what was actually the case were not necessarily the same thing. With all that in mind, I would not view this text as a reliable source of information for the "true purpose" of the Harrenhal event.

Rhaegar was plotting to depose Aerys, it's not just Varys bullshit. Lord Whent decided to host the thing after a conveniently timed visit from his brother. That would be Oswell Whent, member of the Kingsguard and close companion of Rhaegar.

The worldbook paints a picture of just how apart Aerys and Rhaegar were. It was ugly. People wondered if Aerys might disinherit Rhaegar in favor of Viserys.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Rhaegar was plotting to depose Aerys, it's not just Vary's bullshit. Lord Whent decided to host the thing after a conveniently timed visit from his brother. That would be Oswell Whent, member of the Kingsguard and close companion of Rhaegar.

There's also Rhaegar's final words to Jaime about how he meant to make changes before but.....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

(1) Rhaegar was plotting to depose Aerys, it's not just Vary's bullshit.

(2) Lord Whent decided to host the thing after a conveniently timed visit from his brother. That would be Oswell Whent, member of the Kingsguard and close companion of Rhaegar.

I agree with (2). That's in the text (also from Selmy's POV). But how in the world do we conclude (1) from that little bit of information?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree with (2). That's in the text (also from Selmy's POV). But how in the world do we conclude (1) from that little bit of information?

Well ask yourself why that information would be in there if it wasn't a clue. Also read the worldbook when you can. I know it's not available for everyone yet but check your local bookstores some of them have already put it out.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well ask yourself why that information would be in there if it wasn't a clue. Also read the worldbook when you can. I know it's not available for everyone yet but check your local bookstores some of them have already put it out.

I have been avoiding all the spoilers for the worldbook but this little bit just made me :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool:

I should have it by sometime next week....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

...ask yourself why that information would be in there if it wasn't a clue.

I do plan to read the worldbook. But the bare fact that Oswell Whent assisted in the arrangement of the tourney - even the inference that Rhaegar might have called the tourney - does not tell us that the prince wanted to depose his father.

And this idea - that the inclusion of detail in the text can only be justified by potential support for a particular conclusion or fan theory... well, it's a complete nonstarter. Really, it's just another way of saying you'd rather not talk about it. Which is fine, of course. You don't owe me anything. :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I do plan to read the worldbook. But the bare fact that Oswell Whent assisted in the arrangement of the tourney - even the inference that Rhaegar might have called the tourney - does not tell us that the prince wanted to depose his father.

And this idea - that the inclusion of detail in the text can only be justified by potential support for a particular conclusion or fan theory... well, it's a complete nonstarter. Really, it's just another way of saying you'd rather not talk about it. Which is fine, of course. You don't owe me anything. :)

Well I don't wanna quote a book that isn't officially out yet. But yes I have other reasons to believe Rhaegar wanted to depose Aerys. Working with the books that are already out, there is that quote someone mentioned already where Rhaegar tells Jaime he intends to make changes.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well I don't wanna quote a book that isn't officially out yet. But yes I have other reasons to believe Rhaegar wanted to depose Aerys. Working with the books that are already out, there is that quote someone mentioned already where Rhaegar tells Jaime he intends to make changes.

Not asking you to give anything away, certainly. So we can revisit after the worldbook release. But Rhaegar's comment to Jaime about changes doesn't help, either. In fact, aside from what Selmy believes the king concluded on the basis of Varys' information, I can't think of another place in the text (released to date) in which this idea of Rhaegar deposing Aerys ever comes up.

Now, that's not to say I entirely disagree that Rhaegar was headed in that direction. But I'm not sure Rhaegar himself was there yet - or would have considered the "changes" he had in mind to have included a "deposing." So maybe it all comes down to "where you stand," in the end. But I think Rhaegar was looking for a way to affect some sort of peaceful transition...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...