The misunderstood Lord Walder Frey: He should’ve killed Robb

[House Obama]

Everyone tends to view Lord Frey as conniving and treacherous, but why? He do what Jaime does, protect their family.

Catelyn or Walder made a proposal that he would marry one of Frey’s daughters. Also, Arya was to wed one of his sons, but as the story progressed, houses started believing that Arya was dead. Walder Frey did not hold any spite for hers supposed death because the Stark had no control over it.

Walder Frey allowed Robb to cross the bridge unharmed, so he kept his oath. And to all the people who say, “He’s dishonorable, Walder should’ve let Robb pass because his liege lord had already declared for him,” are simply ignorant. Any wise man would’ve tried to advance his family’s name and legacy by marrying one of their children to a high lord, such as, Tully, Stark, Lannister, Baratheon, Martell, Arryns, Florent or Tyrell. In one stroke, Walder had ensured that his family’s name would not be frown upon any longer.

When Robb was declared the King of The North at the Twins, Walder Frey was most likely elated upon hearing the news. Let’s us not forget, Walder Frey had no idea that Robb was going to become King of the North and Riverlands, and Walder may’ve wondered whether or not the Vale was going to proclaim him as King too because his aunt, Lysa, was the lord of the Vale. In an instant, Walder’s family had been raised to a respectable level. And to hear that Robb had married another girl after swearing an oath to him is beyond disrespectful, and Jeyne’s family was the lowest of the lords.

Walder Frey’s heir died while fighting in the war, and then his second heir perished too. Nevertheless, Walder still maintained support for Robb. Furthermore, the death of his sons must have been impactful for Lord Walder too because he does really care for his family, despite everyone saying that he only have self-interested. Then for Robb to married Jeyne, and to justify it by basically saying, “The King can do as he pleases,” is otherworldly disrespectful. I am sure Walder would have understood that Robb begot a bastard because he was emotionally weak from the loss of his brothers. Walder have bastards, he would have understood. But for Robb to marry her and still request his army is moronic. As Catelyn stated, “Walder do not want a lord, he want a king.”

When the book was drawing near to the RW, Walder still showed support in Robb’s cause. Even though Robb was losing the war of the Five Kings, but Robb showed stupidity by beheading Lord Karstark, which cost him a large portion of his army. And the North already had fewer men than the Reach and Westerlands. Therefore, Walder would have been silly to continue fighting for a man who spurned him and his family. Anyone who’s not a pushover would have done exactly what Walder did (though probably not as cruel; like chopping Robb’s head off and replacing it with his direwolf). Robb broke a vow; therefore, Walder had every right to break the laws of hospitality. By doing the RW, Walder ensured his family’s safety and became Lord Paramount of the Riverlands… Not bad for a Plan B!

People hold spite toward Lord Frey because of his history, but when Robb proclaimed that he was warring against the Iron Throne, Walder gave his support. And thus, this is why he needs more fans than “The King who Lost the North.” :cool4:

[alienarea]

Supported.

[SandorsRedemption]

Blasphemy! How dare you take sides with the despicable Freys and show such contempt for the awesome and noble Robb Stark, shame on you.

[Bluebeard]

The Red Wedding went too far, though. They didn't just kill Robb (in a treacherous and dishonorable manner, besides): they also slaughtered his mother and many northern / riverlander lords, not to mention thousands of soldiers. It was a massacre and many people died and suffered because of it.

[Armstark]

Well of course he had good reason to abandon Robb's cause, both personal and strategic reasons, but I think it is the way he did it that makes him despicable. He broke a sacred tradition older than the seven kingdoms themselves. It was a stupid move too since any short term gains he achieved with the red wedding are offset by the loss of honor and prestige of his house. The Frey's are now despised by friend and foe alike and are doomed because of it.

[Hasso von Moltke]

While I enjoy Walder Frey, I disagree that everything he has done has been acceptable. First of all you hit the nail on the head when you said that Walder cares for his family. He does not care for its individual members, so long as the line persists, much like Lord Tywin.

The only other lords who really desert Robb's cause, even after his mistakes and the war turns against him, are the Karstarks who "lost their head" (haha wordplay) and the Boltons through Roose's own desire to raise his family up a rung as well. Bolton betrays better than Walder as well, since the former gains the North. Littlefinger is Lord Paramount of the Trident and the riverlands, not Walder.

While the snub that Robb gave Walder is understandable for him backing out of the war, the game of deceit and betrayal was not at all fitting with Robb's crime. Walder did not instigate the RW for his honor, he did it under the promises and threats of greater men like Roose and Tywin, without whose support the old lord never would have committed the atrocity.

[House Obama]

@SandorsRedemption Robb Stark fought valiantly. Robb Stark fought nobly. And Robb Stark died. Do not get me wrong, Robb Stark was well like earlier in the war, but his stubborn decisions would've make me dislike him.

[JonBranRickon]

The Freys will forever be synonymous with treachery dishonor and betrayal. Can you you name one Frey with likable traits other than Roslyn Frey and Olyvar?

[House Obama]

@ Hasso I do not think that Walder was afraid of Roose, considering he had a large amount too. He was just convince to do so because Robb spurned him, the same go to the Karstarks. They was also involved in the RW. Though he must've feared Tywin Lannister because you can just get a sense that his name carried weight throughout of Westeros. And clearly Walder would've never did the RW if he was alone, the same gone for Roose. Robb's army would have destroy Roose f he challenged Robb head on.

[SixPence]

The Freys will forever be synonymous with treachery dishonor and betrayal. Can you you name one Frey with likable traits other than Roslyn Frey and Olyvar?

Big Walder the Kinslayer. He's killing Freys, that's a likable trait isn't it?

[Hasso von Moltke]

I think Roose manipulated Walder Frey as much as Tywin. The Northmen are far more open with their hatred of the Freys than they are about the Boltons. Roose is feared in general, even by Robb, so why would Walder not fear the Boltons as well? Roose is an opportunist and he simply used Walder for his goals. While he may not have taken on Robb head on, he was surely conspiring throughout the war, just searching for an opportunity to gain more power for his house.

[House Obama]

Stevron Frey (walder's heir) died bravely in the second book. He was likeable and respected. The only way to succeed is by conniving, just like what Littlefinger is currently doing. And to Walder's defense, he was aiding Robb faithfully during the war, until The King who Lost the North broke his oath.

[House Obama]

That's true, but I still do not think Walder feared Roose. Walder lived in the Riverlands, so he probably did not knows as much about him as the northerners. For example, Arya did not know who Roose was until someone told her. And I think Roose simply told Walder that it would be more beneficial for him to cahoots and kill Robb.

[Hasso von Moltke]

Walder has definitely lived long enough to know the unsettling tales of the Dreadfort and what House Bolton does inside of it. And comparing Walder's schemes to Littlefinger's is a bit of a stretch. Walder seems to be going off of the vague "move my house upwards" with very little direction. Although he conspired with Tywin and Roose, it is Walder who takes the brunt of the dishonor. Again, I enjoy the character, but his plans are not as well thought out and he relies on the impetus of outside powers. He definitely did not come up with the plan, he was just a pawn of more skilled men.

[House Obama]

I am sure he knew that he would receive all the criticism of dishonor, but having no honor is better than getting exterminated like the Reyne, or near exterminated like the Stark and Tully. Wouldn't you agree? As I have already stated, I think the RW was the best choice he had. And yes, Walder did go a little overboard by killing other houses' sons and daughters, but it needed to be done. And Littlefinger started the whole war, and I do npt dee him as evil. Because just by reading Cersei's chapters, low-born individuals are not view good at all, and Baelish is Lord Paramount of the Riverlands and he's still seen as insignificant in Cersei and the lords of the Vale's eyes.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Walder has been a little shit since he was a kid.

And remember the reason why he was called "the Late Lord Frey".

[Hasso von Moltke]

Oh he's not "evil" certainly, but hes not "just and right" either. He is simply a man out of his league in the "Game of Thrones." He was manipulated by greater men, because he is indeed malleable. If Robb were to lose, would Tywin have really wiped out every single house that rose up in rebellion? Depending on the scope of his victory he would have certainly knocked out the Starks and Tulleys but what about the scores of other houses that supported Robb? The aftermath of the RW is not some massive redistribution of lands. It is doubtful that the Frey line would be completely wiped out, especially since quite a few Freys were serving with the Lannisters already, including Tywin's brother-in-law Emmon. It is unlikely that Frey acted out of self preservation.

[House Obama]

Oh he's not "evil" certainly, but hes not "just and right" either. He is simply a man out of his league in the "Game of Thrones." He was manipulated by greater men, because he is indeed malleable. If Robb were to lose, would Tywin have really wiped out every single house that rose up in rebellion? Depending on the scope of his victory he would have certainly knocked out the Starks and Tulleys but what about the scores of other houses that supported Robb? The aftermath of the RW is not some massive redistribution of lands. It is doubtful that the Frey line would be completely wiped out, especially since quite a few Freys were serving with the Lannisters already, including Tywin's brother-in-law Emmon. It is unlikely that Frey acted out of self preservation.

I am not sure whether or not you were talking about Baelish or Walder in the first three sentences. But either way, Baelish and Walder are pawns, and they accept that. However, they always wanted to become more than pawn, especially Baelish. And no Tywin would have never annihilate all the houses, but probably more houses than the Stark and Tully would have had been eradicated or have their lands taken, or be sent to the Wall. Also, Walder must’ve pondered if the children who supported Robb would be branded an enemy of the Crown and be sentence to death or the Wall. Yes, Walder have a dishonorable history, but he was loyal during Robb’s rebellion.

[mediterraneo]

...

If Robb were to lose, would Tywin have really wiped out every single house that rose up in rebellion?

...It is doubtful that the Frey line would be completely wiped out, especially since quite a few Freys were serving with the Lannisters already, including Tywin's brother-in-law Emmon. It is unlikely that Frey acted out of self preservation...

I disagree.

Robb was leaving, after having let half of the northeners desert, after having lost the ground everywhere but where Edmure stood it for the Tully. Again, Robb was heading North in his attempt to demonstrate that the Ironborn's backstab didn't destroy his power. Which was unclear.

That would have let the Frey and the Tully as the only ones that Tywin was going to be able to fight. They were being abandoned to die in the rearguard to let Robb save his seat.

That Robb could have gained in this way time to get to the upcoming winter, and thus pose the basis for a long term survival of his domain didn't help Walder in his decision making.

The Frey were in a very slippery slope, with no place to hide and no place to run: they were alone in the first line of the only front of the war in which Robb involved them, against the whole Kingdom in that moment, after the Blackwater, with Dorne and the Vale happily silent and the Ironborn against the North.

Tywin would have had few enemies in the Riverlands, few time to get to Winterfell before winter fell and the need to give an example.

Who would want to be used as an example by Tywin Lannister? For what? For the privilege of marrying into another dying House, used as an example in songs as the Tarbeck and the Reyne? "The Tully and the Frey".

Given any alternatives, who of the readers wouldn't have chosen it? Who is this Robb Stark to you? A family member? The husband of a family member? The brother of a family member? A friend making your interests? An ally protecting you when you were in need?

In Walder eyes, Robb was the man that came as a beggar to his house, cheated him into a war with great promises he didn't mantain, dishonored and disrespected his family in any possible way. And then run away to keep his losses when the day went south.

Possibly Emmon was going to survive, as the consort Lord of the first of the Lannister of the Twins, Genna. But no more. The Frey name was going to wither, given Tywin obsession with legacies. And quite a lot of the Frey's sons and daughter were going to die before that, too.

From his own point of view, Walder Frey was doing nothing more than what was needed to save his family, his name and himself too.

[Panther2000]

I am a fan of Rob, however he was just in the way. Like Mel stated the war of the 5 kings mean nothing. There is bigger picture and I think that Robert, Ned, Rob, Viserys (sp) & leaders of other houses were just in the way.

I think that Rob's early wins & his capture of Jamie may have gone to his head. Even Twyin was surpised by Rob's battle skills. & I think that is where his problems started. The more battles he won, the more he wouldn't listen. Karstark was right, rob lost the moment he married JW and broke his promise. I think that WF & RB were just a tool to remove Rob & Company. I think that Twyin & his army took Rob too lightly at 1st, thinking that he was just a boy who knew nothing of battles.

WHAT IF ROB LIVED: would rob go North to fight at The Wall? What was Jon to do step down & take orders from Rob who doesn't have a clue about what was going on north of the wall.

Rob would never have let the Free Folk through the wall, and by this action creating a Bigger army of Walkers. . Rob knew better than anyone giving advice, because he was King of The North. Hell, he wouldn't even listen to his own mother.

He had to be removed, just like Ned & Robert in order for the story to go forward. I still think that Rob was a good man, just not a good leader in War Time.

Now, WF & RB, they are going to get what is coming to them. I don't think that Walter really give a crap about his family members, but he does care about POWER & that his family can gain. It is stated in the book that he always felt that other lords look down on him & his family. Well, showing up at the end of the battle & jump on the winning side doesn't help matters. Roose on the other hand saw the writing on the wall & jumped at twyin's offer & who wouldn't want to be Lord of Winterfell.

I still Hate the Freys( I do kind of like Walter now, not because of GOT. I like him because he is a Bad Ass Vampire Killer on the Strain) I hate him because of what & how he did it. But, it needed to be done. This will just make way for Stannis, Jon, Mel & other Lords to take on the Battle at the wall.

Wouldn't it be something that if GRRM left WF standing & all other memebers of his family are knocked off. As for Roose, I think that he is more than what is seen. Something ain't right about that man.

I must say tought, I still hate both Freys & Bolton. I used to hate Theon also, but Ramsay actually made me feel for him, and that ain't good. DAMN.