The misunderstood Lord Walder Frey: He should’ve killed Robb

[Nyy23]

Everyone must admit that the King in the - better yet the King who lost the North was the reason for the Riverlands and the North defeat.

Certainly all of this is shades of grey and speculation, but I'd suggest Robb didn't lose the war in the bedroom, he lost it when he sent Theon home. Without that Winterfell is in Stark hands and the Boltens can't act with impunity. Roose's loyalty never faced that kind of test in the rebellion. Without Theon the iron born invasion just doesn't have the same kind of impact.

[Jehane]

I've just finished the Cat-POV in AGoT in which she negotiates with Walder, and even though we see him through her eyes, there are some passages that I find quite remarkable regarding his character (or lack thereof):

1. When Cat starts to talk to Walder, telling him that Robb is outside with 20.000 men, Walder replies that they'll soon be corpses when Tywin gets to the Twins. He goes on: "Don't you try to frighten me, my lady. Your husband's in a traitor's cell under the Red Keep, your father's sick, might be dying, and Jaime Lannister's got your brother in chains. What do you have that I should fear? That son of yours?" He clearly has the upper hand here and both he and Cat know it. When Cat reminds him that he swore an oath to House Tully, his reply is: "Oh yes, I said some words, but I swore oaths to the crown too, it seems to me. Joffrey's king now, and that makes you and your boy and all those fools out there no better than rebels. If I had the sense the gods gave a fish, I'd help the Lannisters boil you all." This is an open threat.

2. Walder hates House Tully. He's still upset that Hoster didn't attend his wedding, it's an insult, "even if he is dying". He's also upset because Hoster declined a marriage offer - Walder wanted to marry off one of his daughters to Edmure which would have given his family a higher standing. Hoster declined for reasons we don't know - probably because he doesn't trust Walder (Cat states earlier that Hoster never trusted Walder and neither should Robb).

3. Walder holds another grudge: He asked Jon and Lysa to foster two of his grandsons at court; in turn, he'd foster their son Robert. Lysa didn't want that, and Walder takes it personally, not one second thinking that maybe Lysa is just too obsessed with her son to let him go anywhere. He's not the kind of person who reflects on the emotions of others. He does what's best for him and his family.

Having said that, I think we get a pretty clear picture of Walder's character early on and it's that of a grumpy old man who thinks that he deserves better and who cannot understand why people don't trust him. He's not misunderstood. He's just a treacherous bastard.

[TheWanderer]

Also, the North and Riverlands were winning the war. But after Robb marry Jeyne that was officially when Roose and Walder planned his death.

And how exactly did this marriage affect the course of the war? Did it result in the weakening of Robb's army? No, since Walder's men remained 'loyal' and the Westerlings added their own men. Robb's army gained numbers and a valuable strategic location in the Westerlands... yet this somehow marked the point where the war became unwinnable to Roose?

No, Roose didn't betray Robb because his defeat was inevitable, he did it because the opportunity to do so arose. Had the opportunity to betray Ned arisen during Robert's Rebellion it is quite possible that Roose would've tried something. Had the opportunity to betray Robb not arisen as a direct result of Walder's spite, it is quite likely that he would not have betrayed him.

Don’t forget that Dorne hates the Lannister, so what if Robb kept winning on the battlefield and still kept his oath to Wlader Frey. Dorne may’ve rally to assist him against the Lannister because I am pretty sure King’s Landing could not survive another siege. And remember, the lords of the Vale were getting agitated by not helping the Young Wolf, so what if they decided to disobey their liege lord and help Robb?

None of this becomes less true with Robb married to Jeyne. Dorne's assistance remains very unlikely and the Vale's inaction remains frustratingly tenuous. These parties have no stake in Robb's marriage either way.

I am in agreement with Marsyao. If you go grab a history book and search for kings’ dynasty, you will find a lot of dead dynasties. Whenever a king was terrible, cruel, or committed a heinous act, the people of their realm would start a rebellion. And when the people decide to overthrow a king, they will usually come after their family to stop the line of concession.

1) Robb was not terrible, cruel or committing heinous acts.

2) The people did not start a rebellion. The Young Wolf remains one of the most popular combatants in the war.

3) The line of succession was in no way affected by the Red Wedding, indeed Robb's line of succession was deliberately maintained by the Lannisters and Boltons.

Once again, Walder could not defeat Robb by himself, so the RW was his only option of revenge for ROBB’s BETRAYAL.

No it's not. It's his only way to ensure Robb's murder, but that's hardly his only option for revenge. Especially considering that murder is an excessive retaliation to Robb's misdeed.

Also, let’s not forget the other things Robb did to Walder unintentionally. Walder’s groomed hair died while protecting him from Jaime, and his other one died too during the war. And Walder did not hold any spite to Robb because in war people die,

That's right, in war people die. Walder did not hold his sons deaths against Robb (not even after) because even he realized that they weren't Robb's fault.

Please do not forget that Walder’s army still supported Robb,

No one's forgetting this. I've actually brought it up repeatedly because it actually strengths the position against Walder. Walder doesn't turn against Robb for his slight, he doesn't make the completely justified action of withdrawing his troops. Instead he pretends to forgive Robb, he accepts Robb's apology and his compensation. At that point he loses all right to claim revenge, because there is nothing left to avenge. And at that point, he murders Robb.

Please do not forget that Hoster Tully did not aid Robert until Eddard agreed to marry Catelyn Stark, so don’t act like Walder is the first lord to try to advance his family.

Catelyn and Ned's marriage did very little to affect the standing of House Tully. That's because House Tully is already Lord Paramount of the Riverlands and thus (at least theoretically) equal in standing to House Stark.

Besides which, no one is holding 'trying to advance his family' against Walder. The previous poster was pointing out (quite correctly, and as I have already done several times) that Walder is already sworn to aid House Tully and thus should not need any additional incentive to do so. Walder refused to aid his lord, and worse still refused to let others aid him. That's the only reason the marriage bargain exists in the first place.

There's also the rather rich fact that in refusing the aid his lord Walder broke the most important oath that exists in a feudal society, and yet when the lesser oath his oath-breaking earned him is tarnished he refuses to see any alternate to mass bloodshed.

[House Obama]

Certainly all of this is shades of grey and speculation, but I'd suggest Robb didn't lose the war in the bedroom, he lost it when he sent Theon home. Without that Winterfell is in Stark hands and the Boltens can't act with impunity. Roose's loyalty never faced that kind of test in the rebellion. Without Theon the iron born invasion just doesn't have the same kind of impact.

I highly disagree, sure Theon capturing Winterfell was a major blow to Robb, but he still had a good shot of winning the war. Also, we must remember that during Robert’s rebellion, the rebels were outnumbered 5 to 1! They were at a massive disadvantage, but Roose remained loyal. Robb and Robert never lost a battle on the battlefield, but Robb lost the war off the battlefield; whereas Robert didn’t.

Having said that, I think we get a pretty clear picture of Walder's character early on and it's that of a grumpy old man who thinks that he deserves better and who cannot understand why people don't trust him. He's not misunderstood. He's just a treacherous bastard.

I never said he was a nice person lol. However, as I stated before, Hoster Tully, a cunning man in his own rights decided to benefit his family during Robert’s Rebellion. He only openly sided with the rebels when Ned married Cat, and Jon Arryn had to marry Lysa Tully. He successfully married off his daughters to not one, but two Wardens in Westeros. Nevertheless, I never hear people hurling insults at him.

Walder Frey did exactly what Hoster did because he was in a good position to do so. He advanced his family to a highly respectable status, due to Robb being crowned King in the North. Throughout this thread, I have acknowledged that Walder have a bad history, but when he declared for Robb, he showed that he was loyal to him. After Robb married Jeyne, he backed from him and his army withdrew, but it was because of Robb transgressions, not his.

[Jehane]

I highly disagree, sure Theon capturing Winterfell was a major blow to Robb, but he still had a good shot of winning the war. Also, we must remember that during Robert’s rebellion, the rebels were outnumbered 5 to 1! They were at a massive disadvantage, but Roose remained loyal. Robb and Robert never lost a battle on the battlefield, but Robb lost the war off the battlefield; whereas Robert didn’t.

I never said he was a nice person lol. However, as I stated before, Hoster Tully, a cunning man in his own rights decided to benefit his family during Robert’s Rebellion. He only openly sided with the rebels when Ned married Cat, and Jon Arryn had to marry Lysa Tully. He successfully married off his daughters to not one, but two Wardens in Westeros. Nevertheless, I never hear people hurling insults at him.

Walder Frey did exactly what Hoster did because he was in a good position to do so. He advanced his family to a highly respectable status, due to Robb being crowned King in the North. Throughout this thread, I have acknowledged that Walder have a bad history, but when he declared for Robb, he showed that he was loyal to him. After Robb married Jeyne, he backed from him and his army withdrew, but it was because of Robb transgressions, not his.

I think it's not only Robb's transgressions that made Walder flip; it's all of the above - the resentment House Tully showed him, him being called "the Late Lord Frey" (I found it quite funny that he didn't get the joke *g*), Hoster not showing up for his weddings... I think Walder has been hating House Tully for a long time and just needed a reason to strike. He couldn't have done this without Roose Bolton and Tywin Lannister, however, and I still think he has a right to get revenge - after all, Robb broke a promise.

Speaking of Roose, I stumbled upon this sentence in AGoT which still puzzles me: Someone - can't remember who - proclaims that Robb's host should "march to Harrenhal [where Tywin's army resides] and bring Roose Bolton's army down as well". This sounds as if they were planning to get rid of Roose; however, he was not a traitor by then or am I missing something?

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Also, we must remember that during Roberts rebellion, the rebels were outnumbered 5 to 1!

Where did this number came from?

[Rrachel]

Rob Stark has a lot of guilt in the matter after all, he was asking for it after he broke the promess he made to Walder Frey. But breaking the rules of hospitality, Lord Walder has marked his whole family with blood and trust will be a thing they won't be able to get easily for the next 50 years or until people stop remebering the Red Wedding (which will be hard).

[The Wolves]

I don't get how people are arguing that Robb deserved to die because he broke a marriage contract that act alone is not enough to condemn anyone to death IMO.

And Walder and the Freys had a right to be pissed but they had no right to kill thousands it was a shitty disgusting act that only monsters are capable of.

And what exactly did the Frey's gain from such a act? They only got a pardon from the Lannisters/crown, they aren't even the Lord Paramount over the Riverlands, they got marriages from the Lannisters like 2. No one will ever sit at their table with them that aren't Lannisters they will probably never get any marriages either they are hated throughout the 7 kingdoms and their only allies are Lannisters and Boltons and their enemies are piling up.

So what did the RE do for them exactly besides a short term goal?

[Attitude]

I don't get how people are arguing that Robb deserved to die because he broke a marriage contract that act alone is not enough to condemn anyone to death IMO.

And Walder and the Freys had a right to be pissed but they had no right to kill thousands it was a shitty disgusting act that only monsters are capable of.

And what exactly did the Frey's gain from such a act? They only got a pardon from the Lannisters/crown, they aren't even the Lord Paramount over the Riverlands, they got marriages from the Lannisters like 2. No one will ever sit at their table with them that aren't Lannisters they will probably never get any marriages either they are hated throughout the 7 kingdoms and their only allies are Lannisters and Boltons and their enemies are piling up.

So what did the RE do for them exactly besides a short term goal?

- He didn’t lose (many) men

- He doesn’t have to send men to war (he doesn’t like that, our ‘Late Lord Frey’)

- He gets a pardon from the crown

- He has a daughter who is married to the lord of the North (Walda & Roose)

- He has a daughter who is married to the heir of house Tully of Riverrun (Roslin & Edmure) + stil has Edmure as a hostage (IIRC)

- His second Son (Emmon Frey) received Riverrun & it’s lands as a reward.

- He probably got some gold from the Lannisters

Won't go into long term, because that is yet undecided.

[House Obama]

Where did this number came from?

I learned about the number from the books and the documentary of the world of Westeros, created by the producers of the television show… I will try to find it for you via Google.

Rob Stark has a lot of guilt in the matter after all, he was asking for it after he broke the promess he made to Walder Frey. But breaking the rules of hospitality, Lord Walder has marked his whole family with blood and trust will be a thing they won't be able to get easily for the next 50 years or until people stop remebering the Red Wedding (which will be hard).

Your subjects do not have to like you; for example, House Lannister. Plus, the other lords never bothered with him anyways, so Walder probably will not care what they think.

[The Wolves]

- He didnt lose (many) men

- He doesnt have to send men to war (he doesnt like that, our Late Lord Frey)

- He gets a pardon from the crown

- He has a daughter who is married to the lord of the North (Walda & Roose)

- He has a daughter who is married to the heir of house Tully of Riverrun (Roslin & Edmure) + stil has Edmure as a hostage (IIRC)

- His second Son (Emmon Frey) received Riverrun & its lands as a reward.

- He probably got some gold from the Lannisters

Won't go into long term, because that is yet undecided.

-He's lost more man since the RW than TWot5ks and he's losing more

-He sent like 1200 Feys and their men to the North and multiple are dying with the Northernmen plotting revenge, killing them off in Winterfell, a horrible cruel winter, and Stannis and the clansmen and other Northernmen about to fight a war for Winterfell.

-The crown is not secure at all their alliances is breaking, their kings illegitimacy is being questioned, Tywin Lannister just died, and the small council was just discussing how to punish some Freys for the RW so the crown is turning in them.

-Roose is Lord of the North in name only the Northernmen are fighting him and his already they're not safe at all.

-His grandchild wont even be Lord of the Riverlands Littlefinger is he reduced his grandchild to a hostage instead of Lord Paramount of the Riverlands.

-Riverrun is not secure in FREY hands because his son is stupid and the BWB is coming for them.

It was still not a secure move for anyone

[Attitude]

-He's lost more man since the RW than TWot5ks and he's losing more

-He sent like 1200 Feys and their men to the North and multiple are dying with the Northernmen plotting revenge, killing them off in Winterfell, a horrible cruel winter, and Stannis and the clansmen and other Northernmen about to fight a war for Winterfell.

-The crown is not secure at all their alliances is breaking, their kings illegitimacy is being questioned, Tywin Lannister just died, and the small council was just discussing how to punish some Freys for the RW so the crown is turning in them.

-Roose is Lord of the North in name only the Northernmen are fighting him and his already they're not safe at all.

-His grandchild wont even be Lord of the Riverlands Littlefinger is he reduced his grandchild to a hostage instead of Lord Paramount of the Riverlands.

-Riverrun is not secure in FREY hands because his son is stupid and the BWB is coming for them.

It was still not a secure move for anyone

- He would've lost all his man most likely if Robb would've gotton into a face of with Tywin (+Tyrels)

- The fact that there is trouble for mr. frey is only because stannis has survived his assault on KL. If his army was 100% crushed there was no trouble there.I can figure he assumed that Stannis wouldn't be a direct threat

- Yeah, like he could know that Tyrion would eventually kill Tywin, making their allience (and others) a lot weaker. That was "planned" by smarter people (LF, Varys). Late Lord Frey definitly was depending on Tywin to live.

- What does that make it a bad move for Frey? He doesn't care, as long as riverrun (his 2nd son's land) is in their possession.

- If I understand that sentense correctly, my response is: Once again, Frey assumed Tywin to take care of that, but he is dead.

- Quite secure at this point.

Don't get me wrong, I hate Frey for doing this, but I do think it was a rather good move. All the events in KL (Cersei, 2 new young kings in a short period, his sons 'betrayel' by killing joffrey (that's what he was sentenced for) haven't given Tywin a window to fix things in the rest of the 7 kingdoms. This was something that Lord Frey assumed he would. His idea how things would go something like:

- RW

- Frey's get riverlands + Boltons the North

- Tully's, Martel's & Lannisters will destroy BwB, Stannis & Ironborn (rebels + the last two 'fake' kings)

- Everybody lives happily ever after.

But yeah, things got fucked up in KL, Joffrey dead, Cersei being stupid, Tyrion almost dead, Tywin & Kevan dead, and now there are 0 lannisters left with any influence in KL. If you can blame Lord Frey for anything, it's being shortsighted and not seeing the whole deal. But Robb was the same in comparrison.

[The Wolves]

- He would've lost all his man most likely if Robb would've gotton into a face of with Tywin (+Tyrels)

- The fact that there is trouble for mr. frey is only because stannis has survived his assault on KL. If his army was 100% crushed there was no trouble there.I can figure he assumed that Stannis wouldn't be a direct threat

- Yeah, like he could know that Tyrion would eventually kill Tywin, making their allience (and others) a lot weaker. That was "planned" by smarter people (LF, Varys). Late Lord Frey definitly was depending on Tywin to live.

- What does that make it a bad move for Frey? He doesn't care, as long as riverrun (his 2nd son's land) is in their possession.

- If I understand that sentense correctly, my response is: Once again, Frey assumed Tywin to take care of that, but he is dead.

- Quite secure at this point.

Don't get me wrong, I hate Frey for doing this, but I do think it was a rather good move. All the events in KL (Cersei, 2 new young kings in a short period, his sons 'betrayel' by killing joffrey (that's what he was sentenced for) haven't given Tywin a window to fix things in the rest of the 7 kingdoms. This was something that Lord Frey assumed he would. His idea how things would go something like:

- RW

- Frey's get riverlands + Boltons the North

- Tully's, Martel's & Lannisters will destroy BwB, Stannis & Ironborn (rebels + the last two 'fake' kings)

- Everybody lives happily ever after.

But yeah, things got fucked up in KL, Joffrey dead, Cersei being stupid, Tyrion almost dead, Tywin & Kevan dead, and now there are 0 lannisters left with any influence in KL. If you can blame Lord Frey for anything, it's being shortsighted and not seeing the whole deal. But Robb was the same in comparrison.

No one would live happily ever after even if Tywin managed to secure the 7 kingdoms.

Seriously though the RW tainted house Frey and Lannister to an extent.

Who would sit at the Twins now or what lords would marry into House Frey? Their word is not trusted anymore and their name is a curse on nearly everybody's lips. No one is ever going to trust the Frey name again.

[Attitude]

No one would live happily ever after even if Tywin managed to secure the 7 kingdoms.

(1) Seriously though the RW tainted house Frey and Lannister to an extent.

(2)Who would sit at the Twins now or what lords would marry into House Frey? Their word is not trusted anymore and their name is a curse on nearly everybody's lips. No one is ever going to trust the Frey name again.

(1) The RW didn't do that. LF, Tyrion & Varys did that. They had no interest with the people who were killed at the RW.

(2) Late Lord Walder Frey isn't to be trusted. Catelyn killed his grandson and he didn't care less. I'm sure there is a small lord who wants to marry his daughter to the lord of the riverlands. So I guess that's not going to be such a big deal.

I think you're mixing up two things here btw. You are mixing up the story as it is at this point (and even your idea how it will go/end, my guess in your opinion the Lannisters & Freys will all be killed), with the story that it was at the point of the RW. If you forget what you know what happened after the RW, and just look at that moment, I think it wasn't such a bad move at all. It played out quite bad, I can't argue with that, but that's the risk.

[House Obama]

No one would live happily ever after even if Tywin managed to secure the 7 kingdoms.

Seriously though the RW tainted house Frey and Lannister to an extent.

Who would sit at the Twins now or what lords would marry into House Frey? Their word is not trusted anymore and their name is a curse on nearly everybody's lips. No one is ever going to trust the Frey name again.

The RW wasn’t a bad move by the Freys. The pros of the RW outweighed the cons. Robb BETRAYED Walder 1^st, but everyone seem to forget that. The Karstarks had abandoned him, and the Ironborns were pillaging his lands, and they (Ramsey) destroyed his home!!! Also, Robb was pinning his hopes that his aunt Lysa would declare for him, which she never did.

The Freys left him when he broke his oath, so they were in the right to seek revenge. Walder is not Tytos Lannister, he knows the consequences of being perceive as soft. And seriously, people will sit at the Lannister’s table because they’re the Lannisters! Only the North and Riverlands won’t, and maybe the Vale. The Starks ruled by honor and justice; whereas, the Lannisters rules by fear.

The 7 kingdoms are never peaceful, but Tywin maintained peace while Aerys ruled. Therefore, it would be safe to assume that the kingdoms would’ve been better if Tywin never died… As I said before, Walder just had a bad case of luck.

[marsyao]

Red wedding was a bad move for Freys because they clearly violated the sacred guest's right, which means they could not make peace with their enemy and no one would ever trust their word afterwards, the only execuse could be used to defend Lord Frey is that this may be the only way he could kill Robb, as a king of North, Robb was well protected all the time, and he knew full well Freys had a grudge against him, if he was not invited in a wedding as a guest, he would never leave his guard down and got himself killed

[Black Dragon]

The Red Wedding was a petty and stupid move, besides the breach of sacred guest-right, and the shame it had brought to his house, he now has the enmity of almost every noble house of the north and the riverlands. Men and family members alike were slaughtered there, all for the sake of Frey's wounded pride and friendship of house lannister. Their reward was riverrun, he wasn't even raised to Lord Declarent. Not to mention, the Lannisters kept their hands completely clean of this one, all the blame now rests at the door of the Freys. Now that Jamie has taken their hostages away from the Freys, they have no buffer besides their precarious friendship to the Lannisters. Either way, now the Freys are cursed in the sight of gods and men, it might have been the easiest way to get rid of the King of the North, but it definitely is the most ill-fated.

[TheWanderer]

Robb BETRAYED Walder 1^st, but everyone seem to forget that.

Nobody forgets that. The argument isn't that what Robb did wasn't wrong but that what Walder did was much, much worse. And that what Robb did did not warrant the retaliation Walder gave.

The Karstarks had abandoned him, and the Ironborns were pillaging his lands, and they (Ramsey) destroyed his home!!! Also, Robb was pinning his hopes that his aunt Lysa would declare for him, which she never did.

This is all true before Robb's marriage. If these spell the doom of Robb's campaign and Walder was motivated primarily by ensuring he was on the winning side then he would've acted sooner. But he didn't. Because the RW wasn't a strategic move, it wasn't about siding with the victor or protecting his family, it was about working out decades of petty frustrations.

[House Obama]

The Red Wedding was a petty and stupid move, besides the breach of sacred guest-right, and the shame it had brought to his house, he now has the enmity of almost every noble house of the north and the riverlands. Men and family members alike were slaughtered there, all for the sake of Frey's wounded pride and friendship of house lannister. Their reward was riverrun, he wasn't even raised to Lord Declarent. Not to mention, the Lannisters kept their hands completely clean of this one, all the blame now rests at the door of the Freys. Now that Jamie has taken their hostages away from the Freys, they have no buffer besides their precarious friendship to the Lannisters. Either way, now the Freys are cursed in the sight of gods and men, it might have been the easiest way to get rid of the King of the North, but it definitely is the most ill-fated.

Riverrun is an excellent castle, so that’s a pretty good reward. And do not forget that the Lannisters broke the guest rights when Catelyn accused Tyrion of attempting to kill Bran. Yet, people still sit at their table… Freys are from the Riverlands, so they wouldn’t care if the Northern houses hate them (yet, it will affect their tolling system). Also, as I said before, House Lannister rules by fear, ever since Tywin took control of the house. And the Freys have the Bolton, Lannister, and Karstark, so they are not completely hopeless.

[House Obama]

Nobody forgets that. The argument isn't that what Robb did wasn't wrong but that what Walder did was much, much worse. And that what Robb did did not warrant the retaliation Walder gave.

This is all true before Robb's marriage. If these spell the doom of Robb's campaign and Walder was motivated primarily by ensuring he was on the winning side then he would've acted sooner. But he didn't. Because the RW wasn't a strategic move, it wasn't about siding with the victor or protecting his family, it was about working out decades of petty frustrations.

I completely disagree because reputation has a lot to do with life. If Walder would’ve allowed Robb to break his oath with impunity he would had been seen as a pushover. Eventually other houses would start to break promises/oaths they have with him too. Soon even his vassals (House Frey does have vassals) would even think his house is a joke.

Whenever a king needs to be disposed of, the disposer/disposers must eliminate their army, which Walder did. Also, as I stated in this thread, Walder was loyal to Robb during the war, and the RW was not a move to unleash Walder’s built up anger at houses.