Eponine Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 I took it upon myself to read the entire Westeros 101 book recommendation list (in the topmost sticky thread). The rules I set for myself were that I don't have to re-read things I've already read, that I can skim but must finish stand-alones, and that I only have to read the first book in a series. Obvious observation - the list feels very influenced by nostalgia and somewhat dated. There have been a large number of books where I've thought - this sucks but I'd have loved it at [12-18]. People like Abercrombie, Bakker, Sanderson and so on aren't on it, and I believe it was compiled before some of the more popular modern books even were written. I didn't start it because I thought every book would be the bestest ever (I came up with this explanation after REG told me this was a stupid list to choose), but because I'm not a long-time fantasy fan and I wanted to get an idea of what was out there that was popular or well-known in SFF. And because I have a compulsion about lists. Probably coincidentally because it's in alphabetical order, the list felt somewhat top-loaded - that is, I feel like I started out with a lot of books that I really liked, but there were stretches in the middle where I hated everything. Another obvious observation - It makes sense that I liked a lot of the books I'd read for the first time because of the list much less than the fantasy I'd already read. Because if I was aware of these books, I'd have already judged whether they were worth reading. There were some that I'd never heard of or was only vaguely aware of that I was really glad to have discovered, but much fewer than I'd hoped for. A while back, I posted about the first 50 books, so here are some opinions on the last 51. Fortunate discoveries that I hadn't heard of or wouldn't have picked up otherwise: The Iron Dragon's Daughter – Michael SwanwickOnly Forward – Michael Marshall SmithOtherland – Tad Williams (MS&T was a slog) Good reads by authors I already liked: Shardik – Richard Adams (it's grown on me post-read)The Liveship Traders – Robin HobbThe Prestige – Christopher Priest Glad I read it even though I'll never read it again:Little, Big – John Crowley (the first half was so lovely and the second half was so blah)The Master and Margarita – Mikhail BulgakovMidnight's Children – Salman Rushdie (disappointing ending) Hate reads:The Lions of Al-Rassan – Guy Gavriel KayLucifer's Hammer – David Niven and Jerry Pournelle (this may literally be my least favorite book I've ever read)The Moon is a Harsh Mistress – Robert A. HeinleinThe Night’s Dawn Trilogy – Peter F. Hamilton (Satanists are evil!)Planet of Adventure – Jack Vance (lesbians are evil!)The Stand – Stephen King (containers for men's babies!) It's possible that I just don't like SFF all that much. There were good books, but I didn't feel blown away by the number of great new discoveries that I'd read. I'd be glad for any further recommendations more specific to my tastes though. I DESERVE TO BE ABLE TO ASK FOR SPECIFIC RECOMMENDATIONS. I feel like more recent fantasy is a lot more character focused, written in a novelistic style where we follow certain people and get into their heads. A lot of the older SFF was more like - here's a situation, we'll put some characters in it to act out a plot. I find this works well with short and sparsely written SF (Dick, Aldiss, etc.), but gets fairly awful when we have to follow one-dimensional characters over several books. As we already know, I like meandering chaos and the first three books I mentioned all fit into that mold. https://www.goodreads.com/review/list/15875470-molly-ison?shelf=westeros-sff-book-list Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Seswatha Jordan Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 If you like meandering chaos, you like Malazan and Bakker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eponine Posted October 13, 2014 Author Share Posted October 13, 2014 I like stand-alones much more than series. Of all the series I started in the bottom half of the list, Otherland was the only one I read more than one book. I read the first Bakker trilogy and neither loved it nor hated it (which apparently puts me in the minority). I'd be willing to try Malazan if people really thought it matched my tastes, but if I don't like the first book in a series, I quit. There is none of this - read another 500 pages and then it gets good - BS for me! ETA: Books from the first half that I liked include The Anubis Gates, China Mountain Zhang, Gormenghast, Invisible Cities. Surprising hate read: Kavalier and Clay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Errant Bard Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 Starting from The Iron Dragon's Daughter somewhat oniric urban SFF, what about Hal Duncan's Vellum, Mieville's Kraken, Nick Harkaway's The Gone Away World, Neal Stephenson's The Diamond Age, Nnedi Okorafor's Who Fears Death?, Murakami's Hard Boiled Wonderland and the End of the World, Gilman's Thunderer, or even Borgès' Fictions or some Vandermeer? Or simply Lewis Caroll? ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eponine Posted October 13, 2014 Author Share Posted October 13, 2014 Vellum, The Gone Away World and Who Fears Death all look like winners to me. And I'm really grateful you suggested Okorafor, because I've seen that but wouldn't have remembered to search it out on my own. I'd like to read Vandermeer's newest series as well. You're good with this recommendation thing - I've read everything by Mieville and Gilman and also Borges' Fictions. Something about Murakami rubs me the wrong way. The plot of Hard Boiled Wonderland was strong but the characters were grating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Errant Bard Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 Something about Murakami rubs me the wrong way. The plot of Hard Boiled Wonderland was strong but the characters were grating.True enough, I had not considered this, Murakami's characters are not usually that likeable, oscillating between bland and withdrawn... I saw HBWATEOTW as a riddle: a dive into onirism, with characters being actually more or less metaphors themselves, so it I suppose the story itself took a backseat in favour of what was behind that story. The jazzy, moody atmosphere helps too. Anyway, I hope you enjoy the others. Thinking about it, I could also have brought up Deathless by Cat Valente, it has got a similar vibe even if it's, I don't know, a bit colder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedEyedGhost Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 I can't remember if he made the recommendation list or not (I'm pretty sure he didn't), but I think you'd really enjoy Edward Whittemore. I've read one of his, Quin's Shanghi Circus, and it was fantastic - definitely the meandering chaos that you love. His other four books comprise The Jerusalem Quartet, I haven't read them (yet, but I do own them all, as they're regularly cheap on kindle). I think it was Brady who put them on his best of the year list last year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eponine Posted October 13, 2014 Author Share Posted October 13, 2014 True enough, I had not considered this, Murakami's characters are not usually that likeable, oscillating between bland and withdrawn... I saw HBWATEOTW as a riddle: a dive into onirism, with characters being actually more or less metaphors themselves, so it I suppose the story itself took a backseat in favour of what was behind that story. The jazzy, moody atmosphere helps too.Anyway, I hope you enjoy the others. Thinking about it, I could also have brought up Deathless by Cat Valente, it has got a similar vibe even if it's, I don't know, a bit colder. I found HBW to be very male-gaze-y. The Wind-up Bird Chronicle went the other way for me, the characters were more interesting but the plot went nowhere - despite that, it's my favorite Murakami. I just plain disliked Kafka on the Shore. Everyone in that needed a good slap. Have you read any other of Valente? I'd like to read her other books, but Deathless was another that started strong and finished stupid for me. Like at the start, the characters are very fairy-tale feeling - they have their own dream-like consistency - they seem like they're enacting a path that's been set for them. And then halfway through, it seems like Valente tries to make Marya a sympathetic character with feelings and shit. And the switch didn't really work for me. I thought it could have easily ended much earlier with an ambiguous resolution. I can't remember if he made the recommendation list or not (I'm pretty sure he didn't), but I think you'd really enjoy Edward Whittemore. I've read one of his, Quin's Shanghi Circus, and it was fantastic - definitely the meandering chaos that you love. His other four books comprise The Jerusalem Quartet, I haven't read them (yet, but I do own them all, as they're regularly cheap on kindle). I think it was Brady who put them on his best of the year list last year. Sounds good - I seem to remember The Jerusalem Quartet mentioned, but no specifics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
williamjm Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 Obvious observation - the list feels very influenced by nostalgia and somewhat dated. There have been a large number of books where I've thought - this sucks but I'd have loved it at [12-18]. People like Abercrombie, Bakker, Sanderson and so on aren't on it, and I believe it was compiled before some of the more popular modern books even were written. I vaguely remember there might have been a cut-off so more recent books weren't allowed (maybe nothing from the 21st Century?). I like stand-alones much more than series. Of all the series I started in the bottom half of the list, Otherland was the only one I read more than one book. I read the first Bakker trilogy and neither loved it nor hated it (which apparently puts me in the minority). I'd be willing to try Malazan if people really thought it matched my tastes, but if I don't like the first book in a series, I quit. There is none of this - read another 500 pages and then it gets good - BS for me! ETA: Books from the first half that I liked include The Anubis Gates, China Mountain Zhang, Gormenghast, Invisible Cities. Surprising hate read: Kavalier and Clay.I'm not convinced you would like Malazan. I do like it (most of the time, anyway) but I think I have more of a liking for Epic Fantasy than you do and few series are fit into the Epic Fantasy category as well as Malazan does. If you liked The Anubis Gates then I think Powers' other books Last Call and Declare are almost as good, and just about everything he's written is worth reading (aside from his first couple of novels which are bizarrely awful, I think his debut Forsake The Skies might be one of the worst books I've read). I feel like more recent fantasy is a lot more character focused, written in a novelistic style where we follow certain people and get into their heads. A lot of the older SFF was more like - here's a situation, we'll put some characters in it to act out a plot. I find this works well with short and sparsely written SF (Dick, Aldiss, etc.), but gets fairly awful when we have to follow one-dimensional characters over several books. As we already know, I like meandering chaos and the first three books I mentioned all fit into that mold. Have you read any of Ian McDonald's work? I think he's one of the best current SF authors, I think he's good at characterisation and his books can sometimes feel a bit like meandering chaos at first although they (usually) tend to come together at the end. I'd probably recommend River of Gods first, I also really liked Brasyl and The Dervish House. Steph Swainston's The Year of Our War might be worth a try as well. It's not without some flaws but I thought it had some good characterisation and the mix of sometimes very surreal fantasy with more mundane elements felt felt a bit reminiscent of Swanwick or Mieville. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AncalagonTheBlack Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 Steph Swainston's The Year of Our War might be worth a try as well. It's not without some flaws but I thought it had some good characterisation and the mix of sometimes very surreal fantasy with more mundane elements felt felt a bit reminiscent of Swanwick or Mieville. I would also recommend The Etched City by K.J. Bishop ,especially if you like Mieville/New Weird stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Richard II Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 KJ Parker's stand alones? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterbound Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 Anything by Donaldson. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eponine Posted October 14, 2014 Author Share Posted October 14, 2014 Thank you.Thank you.Thank you.Fuck you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterbound Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 [emoji2] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry of the Lawn Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 This is an awesome OP. thanks Ep, I've always found your commentary enlighteneing and useful (especially based on your McCarthy knowledge/insight) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkynJay Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 Your reading this has been entertaining as hell and I have followed it closely throughout. Partially because it amuses me when you got one you hated, and partially because I am like you; not well antiquated with the 'classics' of the genre as I came into it fairly recently. A couple recent ones you may like based on what I have seen from you, all fresh on my mind from this year. The Craft Sequence by Max Gladstone seems up your alley, semi-weird but not over the top. Strong characters without a heavy male gaze, a bit of unpredictability. I base this off of your love of Thunderer as both deal with deities and their connections to cities. Unwrapped Sky by Davidson may be worth a read for you. It is a Meiville lite style book. As in some weird, some political but probably not as deep. Lastly, and this may just be me, but I thought The Time Roads was kinda Gilmanish for some reason, maybe only because I read it so soon after being disappointed with The Revolutions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 Abraham? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eponine Posted October 14, 2014 Author Share Posted October 14, 2014 All of these are much better recommendations than almost anything from the list. I'm thinking that my next list should be a book from every country (insofar as it's possible to find translations) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jo498 Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 You probably know some Gaiman already? (For some reason he is only honorably mentioned on the second (21th cent) list) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Ent Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 Bravo, Ep. You put us all to shame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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