daskool Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 I haven't watched Babylon 5 but this thread got me interested in reading that link and that link is very interesting. It is possible that Babylon 5 and ASoIaF are based on a similar mythology and this Norse mythology of Ragnarok, which I don't know too much about, is basically an eco tale - the corrupted gods and men must be cleared from the world so it can flourish anew - which is very much in line with where I see ASoIaF heading. And yes, Fire and Ice is classic 80s Swords and Sorcery. There's a comment, supposedly from GRRM, that someone has figured out the entire plot of ASOIAF and already posted it online. My best guess is this post, or one very like it. Far too many coincidences, at the very least he's been massively influenced by it if not lifting the plot entirely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordStoneheart Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 I suppose that depends on what you think the 'plot' actually is. Because the first three are more based on history than any other fantasy/sci fi influences. The later two are still very much influenced by that but there is a noticable move towards the magical/fantastical. But to say his plot was "lifted" from Babylon 5 is probably the wrong conclusion. It seems as if that show did much more obvious lifting than he's done. There's a comment, supposedly from GRRM, that someone has figured out the entire plot of ASOIAF and already posted it online. My best guess is this post, or one very like it. Far too many coincidences, at the very least he's been massively influenced by it if not lifting the plot entirely. He said something along those lines but not "the entire plot." He said the ending, which isn't the former. And for me, the Ragnorak theories rely on too much coincidences and stretching of terms and people to match up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitering Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 Thanks lol, I'd seen both, I love B5, I love Lord of the Rings, I love this series, I've never noticed any of it lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salafi Stannis Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 Sheldon Cooper likes Game of Thrones but despises Babylon 5. How can this be?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ummester Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 He said something along those lines but not "the entire plot." He said the ending, which isn't the former. And for me, the Ragnorak theories rely on too much coincidences and stretching of terms and people to match up. Yea, I don't think all characters have been matched up perfectly or that all character endings will be exactly the same - but the broader idea, wow - I don't think there is a better way he could end it, even if he tried. The Ice/Jon/Frost Giants and Fire/Dany/Serpent do work essentially together but not in a way that anyone would be expecting. And The Winds of Winter, followed by A Dream of Spring - that could very well be Ragnarok and the new dawn. I like it more than any other idea I've read. I'd give GRRM more kudos for successfully pulling off a Ragnarok ending then just about anything else I can think of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daskool Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 Yea, I don't think all characters have been matched up perfectly or that all character endings will be exactly the same - but the broader idea, wow - I don't think there is a better way he could end it, even if he tried. The Ice/Jon/Frost Giants and Fire/Dany/Serpent do work essentially together but not in a way that anyone would be expecting. And The Winds of Winter, followed by A Dream of Spring - that could very well be Ragnarok and the new dawn. I like it more than any other idea I've read. I'd give GRRM more kudos for successfully pulling off a Ragnarok ending then just about anything else I can think of. It's the idea that it's a song of ice and fire, not a conflict between the two but a harmony, that blew my mind first time I read it. He's definitely lifted the basic mythology and transferred it into the books, and I'm pretty damn sure that Jon is being set up as the next Nights King. Not totally convinced the Jamie is AA, probably taking things a little too literally. I suppose that depends on what you think the 'plot' actually is. Because the first three are more based on history than any other fantasy/sci fi influences. The later two are still very much influenced by that but there is a noticable move towards the magical/fantastical. But to say his plot was "lifted" from Babylon 5 is probably the wrong conclusion. It seems as if that show did much more obvious lifting than he's done. He said something along those lines but not "the entire plot." He said the ending, which isn't the former. And for me, the Ragnorak theories rely on too much coincidences and stretching of terms and people to match up. Yeah true. Better to say that the political and cultural plot around the fight for the Iron Throne takes it's cues from medieval history, particularly the war of the roses. However the magical/mystical plot, which lets face it will predominate in the next two books, seems directly lifted from Ragnarok. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CassBlackfyre Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 I'm sure an an interview GRRM said he wrote Brans first chapter in 1991 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ummester Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 Yeah true. Better to say that the political and cultural plot around the fight for the Iron Throne takes it's cues from medieval history, particularly the war of the roses. However the magical/mystical plot, which lets face it will predominate in the next two books, seems directly lifted from Ragnarok. I've got a feeling Jamie is Odin, matching in with Cersie's Frigg and the final battle. Also, Stannis may be Thor - which might make Stannis fans think they have something to smile about, until they read bits of Ragnarok :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stannis's Lawyer Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 I'm sure an an interview GRRM said he wrote Brans first chapter in 1991 No, he wrote a Catelyn chapter first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Led Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 Lets begin with that B5 copied names and plot from lord of the rings. that is well known and they dont try to hide it. The idea of bran connected to the tree and being able to see everything in the kingdom is taken from there - drall and the machine that projects his concienceness to the universe. I haven't actually seen Babylon 5 (though I probably will, at some point), but I believe the Bloodraven plot (and possibly the one you compare it to in B5) is really based on Odin from ancient Norse myth (with Bloodraven himself being Odin): 1) Connection to ravens (Odins Huginn and Muninn gathered information for him). 2) The giant tree, tree network or world tree (Yggdrasil). 3) The source of knowledge being at the roots of the tree (MÃmisbrunnr, which Odin drank from to gain knowledge). 4) One of Bloodraven's eyes had a root through it, while Odin had to sacrifice one eye to the well in exchange for his knowledge. etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daskool Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 I haven't actually seen Babylon 5 (though I probably will, at some point), but I believe the Bloodraven plot (and possibly the one you compare it to in B5) is really based on Odin from ancient Norse myth (with Bloodraven himself being Odin): 1) Connection to ravens (Odins Huginn and Muninn gathered information for him). 2) The giant tree, tree network or world tree (Yggdrasil). 3) The source of knowledge being at the roots of the tree (MÃmisbrunnr, which Odin drank from to gain knowledge). 4) One of Bloodraven's eyes had a root through it, while Odin had to sacrifice one eye to the well in exchange for his knowledge. etc Yeah I think the allusions are smashing us in the face, GRRM doesn't really do subtle. The Others are Craster's sons, Bran is the bound wolf, Bloodraven is Loki. If he wants to make an allusion clear he's very straightforward. I think the basic premise that the CotF are behind all this and will use Bran to unite the dragons and the Others to destroy the kingdom of men and rid Westeros of the Andal seven is correct. Who will oppose Bran/Jon/Mel in the final battle is less obvious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stannis's Lawyer Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 Yeah I think the allusions are smashing us in the face, GRRM doesn't really do subtle. The Others are Craster's sons, Bran is the bound wolf, Bloodraven is Odin. If he wants to make an allusion clear he's very straightforward. I think the basic premise that the CotF are behind all this and will use Bran to unite the dragons and the Others to destroy the kingdom of men and rid Westeros of the Andal seven is correct. Who will oppose Bran/Jon/Mel in the final battle is less obvious. Bran=Fenrir? Really??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daskool Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 Bran=Fenrir? Really??? Sorry for the error meant Loki not Odin lol In ACOK Jojen dreams of a winged wolf bound in chains set free by a three eyed raven. Like I said it's kinda obvious if you know what he's alluding to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stannis's Lawyer Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 Sorry for the error meant Loki not Odin lol In ACOK Jojen dreams of a winged wolf bound in chains set free by a three eyed raven. Like I said it's kinda obvious if you know what he's alluding to. Fenrir is more or less evil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ummester Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 Fenrir is more or less evil. Why? He's a powerful wolf that was chained up because the gods feared him. Didn't he deserve to be free? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stannis's Lawyer Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 Why? He's a powerful wolf that was chained up because the gods feared him. Didn't he deserve to be free? Norse prophecy: from [Fenrir] great mischief and disaster would arise Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BitsOfBrains Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 Fenrir is more or less evil. More more than less if I remember my ancient norse mythology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ummester Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 Norse prophecy: from [Fenrir] great mischief and disaster would arise So something can be predestined to be bad? That's the whole point of Fenrir as a character, he becomes bad because he was prophesied to be bad. No one gave him a chance to be good. And the great mischief and disaster is exactly what those who bind or prejudge someone deserve - they get to reap what they have sown. You judge me bad, I'll show you bad, kind of thing. Bran is written a lot more sympathetic than Fenrir but I can see that the overarching story is there. Bran's life was judged too harshly by Jamie, so (when Bran skinchanges into a dragon and burns them all - that's my personal take :D ), Bran will feel resolved of his judgement. EDIT - but he'll die for it, just like Fenrir. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stannis's Lawyer Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 Unfettered will fare the Fenris Wolf and ravaged the realm of men, ere that cometh a kingly prince as good, to stand in his stead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorian Martell Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 They were both heavily influenced by LOTR. B5 took it to a sci-fi setting and ASOIAF made it darker and flipped the 50 year old tropes that everyone holds to like a life raft Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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