Consigliere Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 I also think that Martin really wants Tyrion to ride a dragon. The Lannister family tree will be interesting. If there is some Targ blood in the Lannister gene pool then making Tyrion a bastard of Aerys becomes superfluous. If not then here comes A+J=T. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hangover of the Morning Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 Rather than Martin trying to tease us down a false path, I think his concern may rather be the opposite - namely that the hints of Tyrion's true parentage are not apparent enough in the main series, for the casual reader. And that Tyrion suddenly popping up as a bastard Targaryen, just in time to ride a dragon, might come across as a bit contrived to readers who don't study the text to the level of detail that we do in this forum. Of course, it is patently obvious that Tyrion is Aerys's bastard. It is just the people that absolutely hate the very idea of it that need to accept that they were wrong all along. They will come around, eventually. I so hope you're wrong. I am all for Tyrion riding the dragon but him being a secret Targ just really cheapens the story IMHO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RumHam Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 I also think that Martin really wants Tyrion to ride a dragon. The Lannister family tree will be interesting. If there is some Targ blood in the Lannister gene pool then making Tyrion a bastard of Aerys becomes superfluous. If not then here comes A+J=T. There's not though, we already know that from the Westerlands reading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ran Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 I would not forget the alleged dragonbinding horn in all this. It may well provide a way for someone to control a dragon without Valyrian blood... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moondancer Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 Tyrion is nobody's bastard, he's a son of house Lannister. Now, it may be true, but obvious... Not really. Silver hair? His deformity could be the reason for his unique hair colour. Obsession with dragons? He's an outcast, he dreams of power. Selmy's comment? An isolated occurrence so far, and pretty late, imo, in the story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Consigliere Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 There's not though, we already know that from the Westerlands reading. I didn't follow all the various readings. Rather read the published book than bits and pieces. Did the reading provide a family tree? I see some argue that the Lannisters may have Targ blood via Plumm ancestry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaenys_Targaryen Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 Tyrion is nobody's bastard, he's a son of house Lannister.Now, it may be true, but obvious... Not really. Silver hair? His deformity could be the reason for his unique hair colour. Obsession with dragons? He's an outcast, he dreams of power. Selmy's comment? An isolated occurrence so far, and pretty late, imo, in the story.That argument that is always used for "Tyrion is secretly a Targ" almost makes it sound, imo, that no one but Targaryens are even allowed to dream or think or like dragons....The fact that Tyrion read books about dragons, and once wanted to have a dragon, says nothing about his blood, imo. And Selmy's comment is about Tywin's wedding night. Tyrion was born quite some years after that, and Lady Joanna ruled Lord Tywin from home, suggesting that she was not living in KL. So if it is true that Tyrion is a bastard of Aerys, then it definitly isn't obvious.. I didn't follow all the various readings. Rather read the published book than bits and pieces. Did the reading provide a family tree? I see some argue that the Lannisters may have Targ blood via Plumm ancestry.The tree revealed the wives of Gerold Lannister and Tytos Lannister, as well as for Jason, who all would count as recent.. None of these wives were Targaryens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RumHam Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 I would not forget the alleged dragonbinding horn in all this. It may well provide a way for someone to control a dragon without Valyrian blood... So maybe having seen the importance of Tyrion in the flames, Moqorro tricks Victarian and instead binds the horn to Tyrion somehow. Doesn't seem likely to me but anything can happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithras Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 There's not though, we already know that from the Westerlands reading. We still do not know the wife of Damon Lannister and I think she might be Eleana Targaryen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RumHam Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 I didn't follow all the various readings. Rather read the published book than bits and pieces. Did the reading provide a family tree? I see some argue that the Lannisters may have Targ blood via Plumm ancestry. It didn't include the tree, but it did mention that the Lannisters were originally not close to the Targaryens and then describe how they got closer to them. Not mentioning a Targaryen/Lannister marriage would have been a huge omission. Also had there been one in the past would Aerys have scoffed at the idea of Rhaegar marrying Cersei? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Consigliere Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 The tree revealed the wives of Gerold Lannister and Tytos Lannister, as well as for Jason, who all would count as recent.. None of these wives were Targaryens. That is hardly conclusive. I'll wait to see what is in the world book. Hopefully there will be more info about the Lannister ancestors. It didn't include the tree, but it did mention that the Lannisters were originally not close to the Targaryens and then describe how they got closer to them. Not mentioning a Targaryen/Lannister marriage would have been a huge omission. Also had there been one in the past would Aerys have scoffed at the idea of Rhaegar marrying Cersei? A Targ/Lannister union is not the only way for there to be Targ blood in the Lannister gene pool though. What about the Plumm ancestry? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaenys_Targaryen Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 We still do not know the wife of Damon Lannister and I think she might be Eleana Targaryen. Why would that not have been mentioned in, for example, The Hedge Knight, which featured Damon? Curious as to why you suspect his wife was Elaena.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Northman Reborn Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 Ran (Sorry, my quote function acting up again). That is a good point, regarding the dragonbinder horn. I just can't help feeling that it sounds too easy, and kind of invalidates the tremendous efforts the Valyrian dragonlords went to to keep their bloodlines pure and linked to that of their family dragons. I tend to theorize that the dragonbinder duplicates the ritual through which each Dragonlord family initially bound a dragon lineage to their own bloodline. Meaning it can probably work on unbound "wild" dragons, but not on dragons that are already bound to the blood of a particular family. Or at the very least, not on dragons which have accepted a rider already. Which means Drogon is safe, but the other two are not. And I would think you probably need some blood from the dragon in question as well, to create the blood magic link between the man and beast. Which might be possible if one of the dragons are injured in the Battle of Meereen. As Tyrion's little cevasse game with the ivory colored dragon drenched in blood might foreshadow.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcus Agrippa Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 Without pulling my skirt up too high, let's hypothetically say that maybe the Aerys/Joanna material could equally apply to the twins, if not more so than Tyrion, but that it's Tyrion who will probably get the attention because of the higher popularity of the theory relating to him. I suppose tywin was around Aerys till 279 from w what I remember. Thought Joanna was at the rock from the point when the twins were born. She did go to kl from time to time since she was friends with the queen. Tywin also was sure tyrion was his. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moondancer Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 That argument that is always used for "Tyrion is secretly a Targ" almost makes it sound, imo, that no one but Targaryens are even allowed to dream or think or like dragons.... If you consider the matter of one's identity (always a big subject when it comes to GRRM) and the possible implications, I can understand why that would be odd : why would a lion dream of being a dragon? People of Westeros believe in their banners and rarely has a sigil been so... Life-like, as dragons. :D Lion would dream of being the fiercest lion of all, naturally. However, at this point in time,the stories of dragons are as good as those of CotF ie it wouldn't be disgraceful to one's house. Also good to notice that Tyrion's dreams aren't par with Dany's dreams; of course, this would have been be a glaring sign as to his ancestry and painfully transparent, had it happened.The fact that Tyrion read books about dragons, and once wanted to have a dragon, says nothing about his blood, imo. Everybody wants a dragon! Apropos the binding horn... Gosh. Who used it?! Other Valyrians who couldn't ride dragons? Do you have hit the right tone in order to control the dragon? :D Useful and reliable thingie, that horn. The interesting tidbit about Moqorro is that he uses the verb snarl... Not something equally metaphorical but more dragon-like. (Same goes for the prophecies of HotU - if indeed the white lion is Tyrion.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bael's Bastard Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 I want a legal, early copy! Same Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Northman Reborn Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 I already knew Tyrion was somehow related to royalty back in book 1: "For a moment, the dwarf cast a shadow as tall as a king", to paraphrase Jon's POV in the early Winterfell chapter. It took another few books before I was finally able to realize how Martin would make it happen, when out of the blue, Barristan tells us about Aerys lusting after Joanna. And it just all fell into place. All the other hints like dragon dreams and such are merely peripheral stuff. Martin made his intentions clear long, long before that, when describing Tyrion's shadow in one of the very first chapters of the series. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaenys_Targaryen Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 That is hardly conclusive. I'll wait to see what is in the world book. Hopefully there will be more info about the Lannister ancestors. True, it is no hard proof. But it does decrease the chances a lot. A Targ/Lannister union is not the only way for there to be Targ blood in the Lannister gene pool though. What about the Plumm ancestry? The Plumm ancestry most likely came to be thanks to Elaena (so after 172AC). That would mean that the only way that there could be Targaryen blood through Plumm ancestry amongst the Lannnisters, is by having that child marry Damon Lannister. That would mean that the child was a girl, which is impossible, as the line continued through Elaena´s child, hence the birth of Brown Ben Plumm (eventually). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaenys_Targaryen Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 If you consider the matter of one's identity (always a big subject when it comes to GRRM) and the possible implications, I can understand why that would be odd : why would a lion dream of being a dragon? People of Westeros believe in their banners and rarely has a sigil been so... Life-like, as dragons. :D Lion would dream of being the fiercest lion of all, naturally.However, at this point in time,the stories of dragons are as good as those of CotF ie it wouldn't be disgraceful to one's house.Also good to notice that Tyrion's dreams aren't par with Dany's dreams; of course, this would have been be a glaring sign as to his ancestry and painfully transparent, had it happened. Did he dream of being a dragon? Or did he only dream of riding/having one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moondancer Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 I already knew Tyrion was somehow related to royalty back in book 1: "For a moment, the dwarf cast a shadow as tall as a king", to paraphrase Jon's POV in the early Winterfell chapter. It took another few books before I was finally able to realize how Martin would make it happen, when out of the blue, Barristan tells us about Aerys lusting after Joanna. And it just all fell into place. All the other hints like dragon dreams and such are merely peripheral stuff. Martin made his intentions clear long, long before that, when describing Tyrion's shadow in one of the very first chapters of the series.The kings tend to cast great shadows, because their power is great. It's merely an appropriate, in-universe metaphor. And most certainly the obsession regarding the dragons, as tangential as it is, isn't peripheral in relation to this quote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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