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The Ultimate Irony: Sansa & Tyrion


Queen.Sansa.Lannister

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He's pretty heavy handed when he wants to spell out a woman doesn't want a man...

Of course, there's Mercy:

His cock flopped out for the rape... what a hideous thing... a bulbous head the color of a plum... "We were meant to be together."... "Only when I'm on my knees"... With that, he grabbed at her chest, fumbling for a nipple.... Mercy rose, to tower over the little man. "But you'll never grow another nose. You think of that, before you touch me there."

More cock descriptions, none of them described as hideous:

When he had taken his pleasure, Khal Drogo rose from their sleeping mats to tower above her. His skin shone dark as bronze in the ruddy light from the brazier, the faint lines of old scars visible on his broad chest. Ink-black hair, loose and unbound, cascaded over his shoulders and down his back, well past his waist. His manhood glistened wetly. The khal’s mouth twisted in a frown beneath the droop of his long mustachio. “The stallion who mounts the world has no need of iron chairs.”

Dany propped herself on an elbow to look up at him, so tall and magnificent. She loved his hair especially. It had never been cut; he had never known defeat. “It was prophesied that the stallion will ride to the ends of the earth,” she said.

The rustling grew louder. Bran heard muffled footfalls and a low humming, and Hodor came blundering out of the trees, naked and smiling. “Hodor!”

“He must have heard our voices,” Bran said. “Hodor, you forgot your clothes.”

“Hodor,” Hodor agreed. He was dripping wet from the neck down, steaming in the chill air. His body was covered with brown hair, thick as a pelt. Between his legs, his manhood swung long and heavy.

Osha eyed him with a sour smile. “Now there’s a big man,” she said. “He has giant’s blood in him, or I’m the queen.”

Dany's dreams, where she replaced Jorah with someone else:

Lying abed in her narrow bunk, she found herself wondering how it would be to have a man squeezed in beside her in place of her handmaid, and the thought was more exciting than it should have been. Sometimes she would close her eyes and dream of him, but it was never Jorah Mormont she dreamed of; her lover was always younger and more comely, though his face remained a shifting shadow.

Sansa's dream, where she replaced Tyrion with someone else:

And she dreamed of her wedding night too, of Tyrion's eyes devouring her as she undressed. Only then he was bigger than Tyrion had any right to be, and when he climbed into the bed his face was scarred only on one side. "I'll have a song from you," he rasped...

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Le Cygne, are you seriously suggesting that Hodor presented a boner to Sansa? Interesting theory, and a new one.

And are you suggesting that the nightmare of the scarred man in Sansa's bed is a positive one?

And what has the

Mercy

scene to do with Tyrion himself ? He was a hideous dwarf monster, an abomination in the eyes of that cruel society. And the playwright fed exactly the dark prejudices of a superstitious prurient audience, it was their porn industry back then and since when is porn accurate?

I think Martin teaches us a lesson about how negative propaganda works here.

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The memory of her own wedding night with Tyrion was much with her. In the dark, I am the Knight of Flowers, he had said. I could be good to you. But that was only another Lannister lie. A dog can smell a lie, you know, the Hound had told her once. She could almost hear the rough rasp of his voice. Look around you, and take a good whiff. They're all liars here, and every one better than you. She wondered what had become of Sandor Clegane.

Later, she pretends to kiss him (again):

As the boy's lips touched her own she found herself thinking of another kiss. She could still remember how it felt, when his cruel mouth pressed down on her own. He had come to Sansa in the darkness as green fire filled the sky. He took a song and a kiss, and left me nothing but a bloody cloak.

And she will again:

You will see, in A STORM OF SWORDS and later volumes, that Sansa remembers the Hound kissing her the night he came to her bedroom... but if you look at the scene, he never does. That will eventually mean something, but just now it's a subtle touch, something most of the readers may not even pick up on.

Here's the link, that's GRRM:

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/SF_Targaryens_Valyria_Sansa_Martells_and_More

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"mean something....." and what? Nice for you that you have already read WOW and ADOS.

You believe in twelve year old Sansa's cock comparing competence? She would be more alike to Cersei than we had believed so far. This thread is becoming real fun :)

Honestly, assuming anything about anyone's genitals based on Sansa's vast experience is ridiculous. The point Martin wants to make, getting finally away from juicy and pubertarian anatomy debates: Martin wants to talk about POV subjectivity here, with that theater performance he wants to tell us about pre-modern prejudices concerning those ill shaped and cursed by the gods - and he tells us how rumors, events and things (literally ;) ) get enlarged by propaganda.

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It's not funny. I don't find Tyrion and his penis funny. GRRM is writing this character as an ugly man. He has mismatched eyes, two-tone hair, no nose, a bulging brow, twisted legs. And an ugly penis. Period.

This is not Peter Drinkledge. To belittle and make fun of Sansa's genuine opinion and perception of Tyrion is invalidation. I'm taking Sansa at her word, as a fictional character, and not discounting what happened there. It was written that way for a reason. To have her say she'd never want him. And to carry through with her cold politeness to him from then on. And to have Tyrion never understand her and to irrationally want her love.

I'd find Tyrion ugly too. And I'd not want to have sex with him, no matter my age. And I sure do not want to read about Sansa having sex with him.

I never thought that Sansa's dream of the Hound was a nightmare. How could it be when she later nods and says she understands what happens in the marriage bed because of Tyrion (we know he was there) and this dreamed-of kiss of the Hound's? It's a sweet way of saying, yes, I'm all about that kiss. And of course she is, she's been thinking of it for two and a half books.

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Since I was away for the weekend I am playing catch up with some posts from the weekend.





Missed your point there. Who might that be? (No Robert Arryn, please :D .) And if you mean LF... no, I don't think so, And he is not so ugly either. As for Sandor... well, he's either dead or digging graves on the Quiet Isle. Small chance for them to meet. Although... GRRM knows.





Yes, the guy I was referring to is Sandor. I don't think his story is over yet at all. The QI is not that far from the Vale and I think there's a reason for that. And you're right LF is not described as physically ugly.





If Sansa and Tyrion had any future together (hard to imagine at this point but impossible to be sure), it would be because their characters evolution would have made them want to have a future together (because yes in litterarure characters evolve, and in the space of two thousand pages of a fantasy serie weirder things can happen).


Not because of the forced wedding, that will very probably be cancelled far before they meet again (or just after if their feelings won't change).


And in a world as cruel as Martin's nobody can even be sure Tyrion will still be the ugliest of the two at this point.



Anyway, like said Woman of War :




So I don't see why people worry so much about this very unlikely outcome (like any shipping by the way).


I find Tyrion-Penny shipping a bit shocking myself, for the "dwarf with dwarf, these imps should know their place" aspect, but after reflexion if Tyrion's feelings do evolve in this direction (like there may be some little hints about), why not too.


And for all the numerous Sansa-Beautiful Guy X shippings that would smell fairytale a bit too much for my taste, it's the same.



Any character arc ending is good as long Martin decide to implement it through a well organized character evolution, and he still has hundred of pages for that.



Finally I'd find excellent news for Sansa any ending where she doesn't become the vilainous lover and accomplice Petyr dreams of turning her into, an outcome actually looking far more likely at this point than any half-positive love story for her (but Sandor-Sansa, perhaps, which looks largely foreshadowed).





Of course it's true that their characters can and will evolve over the rest of the story so it's not that I necessarily disagree with this. It's just that we also have to look at how their characters have already evolved within the story so far. If we are discussing the possibility of Sansa and Tyrion ending up happily ever after together, well, we are two thirds of the way into this now and the way their stories are developing it looks very much like this is just not going to happen. It is not how either of their characters have been moving. They are moving further away from each other if anything and they both are not really invested in staying married to each other nor do they even view each other as their true spouses. GRRM is not going to do a 180 over the last third of the story and all of a sudden have them having romantic feelings for each other at this point. (I do agree with your last sentence for the most part though I think that not only is Sandor-Sansa very strongly foreshadowed but going off of what I just said, that's how Sansa's story has been developing from the outset.)


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This first quote is so funny, and it is meant to be funny by Martin (a joke at fictional Sansa's expense if the fictional circumstances weren't so sad)

Of course an erect penis would look, to an extraterrestrian outsider or to a young girl who fortunately has never seen one before, quite bizarre and the context would make it more threatening than interesting, the horrified yet brave child expecting pain and horror. And of course Sansa expects Tyrion's penis to be grotesque since Tyrion is ugly everywhere else to her.

Actually this quote from Sansa's POV is an anatomically rather accurate description of a penis at work. The bulbous head without foreskin suggests that Tyrion is circumcised, as most men in the US, at Martin's age and environment in family and locker rooms, probably are. I wonder if Martin has meant it so or if he simply used his own visual experience.

This anatomical onlook is entirely from Sansa's viewpoint and shows how something that can be sexy and attractive (HMMMM ... thick ... bulbous... good blood vessels .... promising! :) ) can, under those totally wrong circumstances of an unwanted child marriage, be subjectively completely ugly.

A masterpiece of what the POV structure can manage in transporting subjective onlooks (and actually a little bit funny)

You believe in twelve year old Sansa's cock comparing competence? She would be more alike to Cersei than we had believed so far. This thread is becoming real fun :)

Honestly, assuming anything about anyone's genitals based on Sansa's vast experience is ridiculous.

Indeed, is is comedic. Between this experience, and hearing her aunt Lysa howling during her wedding night with Petyr, what must Sansa think of sex now ? :rofl:

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It's not funny. I don't find Tyrion and his penis funny. GRRM is writing this character as an ugly man. He has mismatched eyes, two-tone hair, no nose, a bulging brow, twisted legs. And an ugly penis. Period.

This is not Peter Drinkledge. To belittle and make fun of Sansa's genuine opinion and perception of Tyrion is invalidation. I'm taking Sansa at her word, as a fictional character, and not discounting what happened there. It was written that way for a reason. To have her say she'd never want him. And to carry through with her cold politeness to him from then on. And to have Tyrion never understand her and to irrationally want her love.

I'd find Tyrion ugly too. And I'd not want to have sex with him, no matter my age. And I sure do not want to read about Sansa having sex with him.

I never thought that Sansa's dream of the Hound was a nightmare. How could it be when she later nods and says she understands what happens in the marriage bed because of Tyrion (we know he was there) and this dreamed-of kiss of the Hound's? It's a sweet way of saying, yes, I'm all about that kiss. And of course she is, she's been thinking of it for two and a half books.

Everything you said, and you said it really well. There's nothing funny about the wedding night. Sansa is a woman in the story, days from 13 at the time, and now almost 14 (some say she already is, based on the moon turns in Arya's story), but at any rate, in Westeros, she's not a child, and she knows what she wants and what she doesn't want. And that ugly penis isn't looking any better in retrospect. And there's the Mercy chapter,

which is about rape. The same beats, but this time, the gloves are off, no Septa Mordane courtesy. Hideous penis, don't touch me, never.

Then there's this long, ongoing, really nicely told love story for Sansa and Sandor.

His words ("I could keep you safe"), his kiss (she gives him), his cloak (bloody, red on white, consummation symbolism), everything in Sansa and Sandor's last scene together is straight out of her dreams of marriage to a "tall and strong" man. He is there to rescue her, once again, but he is afraid of the fire (and looking back, she tells us "it was only the fire he feared"). Her song is her prayer for him, "save him, if you can," "save our sons from war." And she caresses his face and puts on his cloak (a second time, rule of three, there will be a third). And he remembers she "sang me a sweet little song."

Later, Lysa "sings" for her husband, A hound dog waits for Sansa in bed, she lay down beside him, he licks her face (his kiss) and she pets him (her caress) - this is a callback to the Blackwater scene. Sansa hopes Sandor is there to resue her from Marillion (who she compares to Littlefinger). Then she dreams of Sandor naked in bed with her - and her eyes are open for him, not tightly closed like with Tyrion. And Sandor is "bigger than Tyrion" - if one wants to talk penises, she is looking at Sandor's. "I'll have a song from you," Sandor tells her. "I'll sing for you, gladly," she told him before.

Lots more, he's telling a story about love and mutual sexuality...

GRRM is not going to do a 180 over the last third of the story and all of a sudden have them having romantic feelings for each other at this point. (I do agree with your last sentence for the most part though I think that not only is Sandor-Sansa very strongly foreshadowed but going off of what I just said, that's how Sansa's story has been developing from the outset.)

This, too. Very strongly foreshadowed.

(tagging)

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Indeed, is is comedic. Between this experience, and hearing her aunt Lysa howling during her wedding night with Petyr, what must Sansa think of sex now ? :rofl:

Next up: Sam's 'fat pink mast'.

Opps, off topic. Sorry

:leaving:

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Of course it's true that their characters can and will evolve over the rest of the story so it's not that I necessarily disagree with this. It's just that we also have to look at how their characters have already evolved within the story so far. If we are discussing the possibility of Sansa and Tyrion ending up happily ever after together, well, we are two thirds of the way into this now and the way their stories are developing it looks very much like this is just not going to happen. It is not how either of their characters have been moving. They are moving further away from each other if anything and they both are not really invested in staying married to each other nor do they even view each other as their true spouses.

Sandor is clearly the love interest for Sansa, but to consider Sansa and Tyrion's trajectory as moving further from each other is to disregard key established and developing interactive character traits, and to leave us with no satisfactory reason for the author having thrown them together in marriage in the first place.

A large portion of Tyrion's POV is dedicated to explaining and demonstrating his craving for the attraction and love of a beautiful woman. It is demonstrated he is willing to allow himself to be manipulated against his better judgement by a woman who is capable of satisfying this craving.

Another decent chunk of Tyrion content is the relationship he has with his father, which will almost certainly culminate in the question and answer of if he really is Tywin writ small. An aspect of Tywin which fits into a future Sansa-Tyrion dynamic was his alleged susceptibility in private to his wife's rule.

Sansa is a budding player primed to emulate the methods of manipulation she has been exposed to, some of which play perfectly to Tyrion's vulnerability. She has been exposed to is Cersei's blunt explanation of the virtues of seduction, Marge's ability to control her unruly husband and the crazy things LF was able to make Lysa do for him through her love and devotion. In SR she has her own test subject with which to unknowingly ease herself into things, as she dangles a kiss like a carrot to literally get him to go where she wants him.

Love isn't on the cards, but there's plenty of interaction left for the two characters.

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Sandor is clearly the love interest for Sansa

So far Sansa is the love interest for Sandor. I predict that that she will shape his arc far more than he will influence hers. His story side is fascinating, compelling, maybe gruesome and tragic - and very beautifully written. Sansa will be his downfall and death in one or the other way. But I think she will go on in life without him no matter what happens between them. If Sandor is alive and will ever leave his island.

.......but to consider Sansa and Tyrion's trajectory as moving further from each other is to disregard key established and developing interactive character traits, and to leave us with no satisfactory reason for the author having thrown them together in marriage in the first place.

:agree:

And there are many possible versions: staying together in relative happiness is only one of several though you might see it as unlikely.

A large portion of Tyrion's POV is dedicated to explaining and demonstrating his craving for the attraction and love of a beautiful woman. It is demonstrated he is willing to allow himself to be manipulated against his better judgement by a woman who is capable of satisfying this craving.

Another decent chunk of Tyrion content is the relationship he has with his father, which will almost certainly culminate in the question and answer of if he really is Tywin writ small. An aspect of Tywin which fits into a future Sansa-Tyrion dynamic was his alleged susceptibility in private to his wife's rule.

Sansa is a budding player primed to emulate the methods of manipulation she has been exposed to, some of which play perfectly to Tyrion's vulnerability. She has been exposed to is Cersei's blunt explanation of the virtues of seduction, Marge's ability to control her unruly husband and the crazy things LF was able to make Lysa do for him through her love and devotion. In SR she has her own test subject with which to unknowingly ease herself into things, as she dangles a kiss like a carrot to literally get him to go where she wants him.

I agree again with that story possibility

Love isn't on the cards...

Here I do not totally agree since we simply cannot know, no way we can predict yes or no, there is an author between us and the characters.

......but there's plenty of interaction left for the two characters.

Plenty! Sansa may indeed become the manipulator and Tyrion might be the perfect victim who is made to do things he would refuse otherwise. Just like Cersei did with Jaime all his life (disclaimer, I am not trying to present Jaime or Tyrion as innocent lambs slaughtered on the altar of some evil seductress: they are not innocent at all). If Sansa gets really dark and betrays Tyrion using his weaknesses there may be a tragedy just like the Shae murder looming over them and we can only hope that this time Tyrion has learnt, that he will be a better human being and will simply turn his back to the manipulator. (Just like Jaime...so far - and then?)

Or Sansa, not getting as dark, tries to get his competences for the goal to win back Winterfell and he may be willing to risk his life for her. Burnt down and broken now Winterfell is no more than a story symbol for "the Starks are still there" and not a nice place to live any longer. If Sansa chooses to live there alone or with Rickon it would be more an ordeal than coming home. There is no way back to what has been, one of the saddest lessons Martin would teach Sansa and us.

So yes, Sansa manipulating Tyrion by using his personal weaknesses is a sad possibility, sad if it's done for a dark purpose but maybe she gives him the spirit to be the shiny hero in fighting the Others (sigh... ;) ), making him a better human being. Well, who has never been at least a little bit manipulative but there is the possibility that Sansa will do it with evil intentions, depending on how dark the author wants to paint her.

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Here I do not totally agree since we simply cannot know, no way we can predict yes or no, there is an author between us and the characters.

Well the text is what we have to go on, are you able to make a genuine argument for it based on that? The case for Sandor makes itself, with Sansa's every thought of intimacy he is there and the instances of foreshadowing numerous, in the case of Galladon unusually straight forward.

I would add that the theme of marriage in Westeros as GRRM has presented plays neatly into Sansa's relationships with Sandor and Tyrion. Marriage for politics for certain isn't a sure thing, but marriage for love is doomed to hell. Sansa wasn't given a choice in marrying Tyrion, but it will be her burden to bear in obtaining ultimate political power. That she can not be with Sandor, or be with him openly, is the sacrifice she pays for the power.

Likewise, if Tysha re-emerges, Tyrion will have to renounce her to maintain his position, proving Tywin's lesson right (not the method).

Well, who has never been at least a little bit manipulative but there is the possibility that Sansa will do it with evil intentions, depending on how dark the author wants to paint her.

Sansa's arc leads to atonement for ratting out Ned to Cersei. It won't be a matter of good or evil, dark or light, but her own power or her family, lion or wolf, Lannister avarice or Stark loyalty. If Tyrion has learnt from Shae and is smart enough to get out of the way is an interesting notion. I've struggled with it, on one hand if Tyrion is shown to have learned nothing from Shae it seems like that portion of character development was wasted, an empty round about, on the other hand when wonder boy marches the North South I can only see it ending in him bringing the South to heel.

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I believe that this "What if I never want?" Is a very strong textual hint that it might exactly happen: Sansa will want Tyrion. Though even this may happen under totally twisted circumstances: if Martin is as mean to his characters as he can be at times Sansa will want Tyrion in order to manipulate him, the ugliest interpretation for both characters.

But I am hopeful that if this quote ever comes to fruititon it wil be as something close, loving and respectful.

But of course none of us has any clear textual argument for any story turn that cannot be torn apart by those with different fan hopes. We all find "evidence" and "hints" for what we would like and try to disprove the possibility of an outcome we dread.

And of course no clever arguing, nothing of it all will change Martin's story the least little bit in the end.

So It is quite pointless to out-argue each other here. We simply cannot know the outcome but of course we are free to hope that our wishes may come true.

Though I am not so sure that I would wish Sansa with Tyrion. I have not been very interested in her character from the beginning, she was more a study in the kind of girl I never was, the kind of girl who ratted on me (correct English??) and the kind of girl I bullied, mean as I was. I myself was a different child. But of course I pity her as example of all those children threatened by sexual abuse and forced into unwanted (child) marriages. But I have to say, mere pity is death to fascination.

But the series, and some will hate this, has shown me the possibilities of her character and now I follow with genuine interest, may Sansa turn dark or stay on the morally less compromised side, both would be equally fascinating.

Actually I would want Tyrion to get what he has always hoped for: recognition, respect and true love, this might come from Sansa or any other female character already in the story or not yet. I could start that funny shipping game now but I guess Martin has his own ideas.

Only I am not so sure that Tysha will ever show up. She may be Tyrion's holy grail, the futile quest to pursue on the road to himself. And since the series seems to (sadly) see Tysha as rather unimportant I am afraid we will never see the character as real existing person in the end - but who knows. A plot device. We will never meet Lyanna nor will we ever meet Tysha. And, honestly: "ahem, Sansa, can we get our lawyers to figure something out so I can please be married to Tysha and could you please go elsewhere? Thank you for your understanding and have a nice life." So sweet and so unlikely.

.....I can only see it ending in him bringing the South to heel.

this. I am sure Martin will grant Tyrion his moment or his night of love and recognition. But the next morning he might send Tyrion to a hero's death while doing the deed that has to be done, as crazy, creative and impressive as this character deserves and I would weep.

And the author will not have asked me if he is allowed to kill Tyrion off, if it is politically correct to give him a positive ending including a wonderful love interest or if it is fanservice to kill him - or vice versa.

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I'm no particular Sansa, Tyrion or Stark fan, I'm not arguing what I want to happen but where I think the text is pointing. I can see something of an implication in "what if I never want?" and the line about him still being a Lannister, and that trusting a Lannister is a mistake Sansa would never make again, but it's extremely light in comparison to Sandor and I don't see it amounting to love. If it comes to fruition I think it will be a singular departing gesture, she won't betray Tyrion lightly and she'll be sorry for doing so, but family is family.

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But here you assume that Sansa would choose to betray Tyrion in order to support her family. Why would she have to do that? Why would Tyrion even turn against any remaining Stark? There is his friendship with Jon or even Bran and this may come up as topic again when they ally to fight a common enemy. It must be in the books for something.

I think if Sansa outright betrays Tyrion it would be for darker purposes, like continuing Baelish's plans at the expense of peace in the North. And assuming she would send Tyrion to his death knowingly in order to widow herself would indeed be very dark.

Manipulation does not always mean betrayal. Sansa might influence Tyrion to support a valuable ally, to send dragons where they are needed etc, whatever we can imagine as plot twist. You can call this manipulation by offering sex and/or emotions as maximum incentive but it might be called as well positive feedback. Is it betrayal when your boss triples your salary if you agree to manage the office in Dumbilutshistan? It is manipulation but actually it is incentive, positive reinforcement. It only gets immoral manipulation if Sansa would promise Tyrion a happily ever after marriage with dozens of children while she intends to run off with someone else or to cut Tyrion's throat at night. But this is beginners' lesson in morality.

Is it already manipulation if you see the best in another person and try to tickle it out of him or her? Sansa may make Tyrion a hero and Tyrion may help her to find inner courage and creativity where she never expected it.

You see I am incurable and hope, against all odds, that both characters get a positive story. But since many of Martin's creations won't have a happy ending they may both be dust when all is said and done.

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Love isn't on the cards, but there's plenty of interaction left for the two characters.

Believe it or not I agree with you. I think they will interact again. As I said in an earlier post, Tyrion has as much reason to hate LF as Sansa does and that does make me wonder if they will ally in some way to bring LF down. But the way the OP was phrased and many of the discussions here, they were about a more romantic, love story type ending for Tyrion and Sansa and given what we have seen so far that is not happening. With regard to their feelings for each other as lovers and spouses they are moving away from each other.

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Well the text is what we have to go on, are you able to make a genuine argument for it based on that? The case for Sandor makes itself, with Sansa's every thought of intimacy he is there and the instances of foreshadowing numerous, in the case of Galladon unusually straight forward.

I would add that the theme of marriage in Westeros as GRRM has presented plays neatly into Sansa's relationships with Sandor and Tyrion. Marriage for politics for certain isn't a sure thing, but marriage for love is doomed to hell. Sansa wasn't given a choice in marrying Tyrion, but it will be her burden to bear in obtaining ultimate political power. That she can not be with Sandor, or be with him openly, is the sacrifice she pays for the power.

That could be the case; however, the marriage to Tyrion does not fit there anywhere. If Sansa is to marry for power, she could marry Harry the Heir, some northern bannerman, Sweetrobin, fAegon even, or maybe Willas Tyrell... there are lots of candidates, but Tyrion is not one of them. Sansa has no reason at all to want to be married to Tyrion Lannister. This marriage only hurts her politically and would hurt if not destroy her chances of the North accepting her, and it doesn't gain her anything. Even if Tyrion managed to gain Casterly Rock, Sansa does not want to be Lady of Casterly Rock.

Likewise, if Tysha re-emerges, Tyrion will have to renounce her to maintain his position, proving Tywin's lesson right (not the method).

Sansa's arc leads to atonement for ratting out Ned to Cersei. It won't be a matter of good or evil, dark or light, but her own power or her family, lion or wolf, Lannister avarice or Stark loyalty. If Tyrion has learnt from Shae and is smart enough to get out of the way is an interesting notion. I've struggled with it, on one hand if Tyrion is shown to have learned nothing from Shae it seems like that portion of character development was wasted, an empty round about, on the other hand when wonder boy marches the North South I can only see it ending in him bringing the South to heel.

I don't see anything in the text that suggests that Sansa's arc leads to "atonement for ratting out to Ned to Cersei". It was never established as some great crime she had to "atone" for (which would be silly, as it was just an act of disobedience and naivete by an 11-year old girl who had no idea what was going on; I don't have to point out how many horrible things other characters have done in ASOAIF, but they are still not held as something that they need to "atone" for, let alone as the main focus of their arc). There's no indication that Sansa is wrecked with guilt over it, or that GRRM thinks she should be; and he has also said long time ago that he doesn't mind at all that the TV show removed that event from its canon, which means that it's really not something of great importance that GRRM thinks the story could not do without (and that comes from the man who is still annoyed that they killed off Mago!).

Sansa's arc, as far as I can see, is about growing up, disillusionment about the conventional role of women she had been brought up to accept and used to accept, learning how the world works, being used as a pawn but eventually gaining agency, sexual and otherwise; and it's also about wanting to be reunited with her family and go home - not because she feels guilty over something, but because she loves her family and thinks of her home and lost childhood with nostalgia.

I swear there are people here who hate Tyrion worse than Tywin and Cersei put together ever did.

Meanwhile, Sandor sure is getting a lot of whitewashing.

Speaking of irony.

Are you sure you know what "irony" means? I don't see what would be "ironic" about any of that, even if it were true.

Which it's not. I don't even think there are many people in this thread who hate Tyrion, let alone hate him more than Tywin or Cersei. (But even if there were... so what?)

Newsflash: not subscribing to the idea that Tyrion is entitled to Sansa opening her legs for him to reward him for not raping her (which is an extremely gross, sexist, ludicrous and offensive belief, BTW) does not constitute "hating Tyrion".

The only person I see whitewashed by some posters in this thread is Tyrion (claims that he was the person who treated her better than anyone other than her family, that he risked his life for her, etc.,), all that the other people in this thread did was point out the actual facts. There's Tyrion hate on this forum, indeed, and rather extreme Tyrion hate, but I've seen none of it on this thread.

Meanwhile, where did you see any "whitewashing" of Sandor in this thread? Pointing out that he does care for Sansa and does not disrespect her is "whitewashing"? Seriously?

Why are you and some others talking as if one must want Tyrion with Sansa if one likes Tyrion? Why would a Tyrion fan really want that, unless they're into ridiculous wish fulfillment fantasies that are more about their own wishes for Tyrion becoming a Gary Stu and getting a trophy wife and being "rewarded" by the narrative, than about what the character himself needs or wants, or what would make his arc better, or what would make him more ethical, heroic or likable or his character growth better? Nobody has replied to my earlier post, so I'll just quote myself:

Since it's already been pointed out many times why the Sansa/Tyrion marriage is bad for Sansa* and why it's extremely unlikely that she'd want ever to continue, I want to comment on something else: this puzzling idea that someone who likes Tyrion should want Tyrion/Sansa and this is somehow good for Tyrion as a person or character.

* But just in case, let's sum it up again:

Pros and cons of the Sansa/Tyrion marriage for Sansa:

PRO:

- Tyrion is not a monster like Joffrey and would probably not mistreat her in particular.

CON:

- She doesn't love him.

- He doesn't love her. (Sansa wants someone to love her for herself.)

- He's not very interested in her personality, he does even understand or particularly like it.

- His main reason for wanting to marry her was to get Winterfell. (Sansa wants someone to marry her for love, not her claim.)

- She finds him incredibly sexually unattractive and was horrified by the prospect of sex with him, which would make sex with him an extremely unpleasant and unhappy experience.

- His family is responsible for the deaths of half of her family,

- He was one of her captors in King's Landing and worked for his family's interests.

- Sansa hates the idea of being married to a Lannister or her children being named Lannisters.

- She was forced to marry him and continuing that marriage would reinforce her position as a hostage and lack of choice.

- He made her see him naked and groped her and traumatized her quite a bit on their wedding night.

- She was forced to marry him as an act of aggression against her family and an attempt to wipe out their name and take over their lands.

- Being married to Tyrion would continue hurting Sansa politically, and she would never have a chance of going back home and being accepted by people in the North.

- He's a guy with massive issues regarding women, is hung up on his first wife, and he murdered his ex-lover.

Now, for Tyrion, the pros and cons of being married to Sansa:

PROS:

- She's beautiful and he would like to have sex with her (if she wasn't disgusted by him).

- She's very highborn, in addition to being beautiful, ladylike and a virgin - perfect trophy wife to parade around.

- She's the heir to Winterfell (as far as most people in Westeros know).

CONS:

- She doesn't love him.

- She finds him extremely sexually unattractive, and he knows it.

- She would never get over him being a Lannister and the circumstances of their marriage.

- He doesn't love her.

- She's not Tysha (despite his fantasies about her coming to him and accepting him, where he clearly saw her as Tysha 3.0).

- Even if he could become officially the lord of Winterfell through her, it would be an empty title, since the Northmen would never accept him.

- The perks of having a trophy wife like Sansa Stark would be offset by the fact that everyone knows the circumstances of their marriage, and most people in Westeros would consider him an asshole who got lucky because he would never had married her unless she was a hostage and his father needed to marry her to one of the Lannisters as a ruthless and blatant power grab.

Even the good things Tyrion could get out of this have their bad sides, and in the end, this marriage would not really be good for him, either.

The fantasy some fans have of Sansa falling in love with Tyrion in the future is 1) extremely unrealistic, considering everything we've seen so far, 2) seems to be a wish fulfillment, the idea that Tyrion "deserves" a reward for having treated Sansa kindly (i.e. not as badly as he could have), by getting a trophy wife, beautiful and highborn, who wants him.

The latter would not be good for the growth of Tyrion as a character or for his arc. Tyrion wanted Sansa for selfish reasons - Winterfell (if he can't get Casterly Rock), her body, his self-esteem and wanting to be loved and desired - even though he should have realized that, even if Sansa started to like him, this marriage was terrible for her because it would tie her to the Lannisters, she could never go home, and would be complicit in the destruction of her family. it showed his selfishness, neediness, insecurity, and the way he was dominated, manipulated and influenced by his father. The better part of his nature was what made him decide not to rape her - against his father's wishes (a triumph of his better nature considering the fact that Tywin once forced him to participate in his beloved wife's rape). It did not extend to giving her up completely or setting her free, or getting her away from his family, though. But he showed himself to be a better person than most people in Westeros thought he was (he has a terrible reputation, everyone would expect him to rape her and try to take over Winterfell through her and/or her child).

For Tyrion to grow as a person, let his better nature win, and triumph over the legacy of his father, the right and good thing to do would be to annul the marriage and leave Sansa alone, instead of trying to profit from what the Lannisters had done to the Starks, and Sansa personally. This is what I would want for Tyrion, as someone who likes the character (he used to be in my top 3 and is still in my top 6 or 7; even though the fandom and the show are doing their best to sour me on his character).

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Plenty! Sansa may indeed become the manipulator and Tyrion might be the perfect victim who is made to do things he would refuse otherwise. Just like Cersei did with Jaime all his life (disclaimer, I am not trying to present Jaime or Tyrion as innocent lambs slaughtered on the altar of some evil seductress: they are not innocent at all).

Or Sansa, not getting as dark, tries to get his competences for the goal to win back Winterfell and he may be willing to risk his life for her.

So yes, Sansa manipulating Tyrion by using his personal weaknesses is a sad possibility, sad if it's done for a dark purpose but maybe she gives him the spirit to be the shiny hero in fighting the Others, making him a better human being. Well, who has never been at least a little bit manipulative but there is the possibility that Sansa will do it with evil intentions, depending on how dark the author wants to paint her.

I believe that this "What if I never want?" Is a very strong textual hint that it might exactly happen: Sansa will want Tyrion. Though even this may happen under totally twisted circumstances: if Martin is as mean to his characters as he can be at times Sansa will want Tyrion in order to manipulate him, the ugliest interpretation for both characters.

Manipulation does not always mean betrayal. Sansa might influence Tyrion to support a valuable ally, to send dragons where they are needed etc, whatever we can imagine as plot twist. You can call this manipulation by offering sex and/or emotions as maximum incentive but it might be called as well positive feedback.... It only gets immoral manipulation if Sansa would promise Tyrion a happily ever after marriage with dozens of children while she intends to run off with someone else or to cut Tyrion's throat at night. But this is beginners' lesson in morality.

Is it already manipulation if you see the best in another person and try to tickle it out of him or her? Sansa may make Tyrion a hero and Tyrion may help her to find inner courage and creativity where she never expected it.

You see I am incurable and hope, against all odds, that both characters get a positive story. But since many of Martin's creations won't have a happy ending they may both be dust when all is said and done.

Well, as someone pointed out earlier, there is also something of an open question of whether Tyrion is the most like Tywin of all Tywin's children.

This might be fulfilled, in a back-handed sort of way, by Tyrion being manipulated / heavily influenced by his mate, that for all his power he would be so-to-speak "ruled at home" as Tywin was by Joanna.

Could be Sansa, or any other potential future mate. Maybe the end result is that makes Tyrion a more positive force, or at least more balanced - not always immersed in a cycle of pain / shame and reactive vindictiveness as he is when he's by himself. Call that manipulation, perhaps, but it figures heavily into Tyrion's story, already, so we may see more of it.

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