nickdt Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 Will he kill the one family member he still has a healthy relationship with though? I'm curious to see what he would do if he had to prove himself to LS and the BwB by not only helping massacre the wedding but personally execute his cousin. He has no choice. If he refuses, he is a dead man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee-Sensei Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 Jaime has no room to judge the Freys for the Red Wedding, seeing as he broke guest rights when heshoved Bran out the window. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BitsOfBrains Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 What did Steelshanks Walton say right before he stabbed Robb? "Jaime Lanister sends his regards." Jaime is dissing the Freys because its in vogue, but he is not so huge a hypocrite to go after them and kill them over it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TallTyrion Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 Jaime has no room to judge the Freys for the Red Wedding, seeing as he broke guest rights when heshoved Bran out the window. Not that I'm defending pushing a kid out of a window, but the Red Wedding is not in the same ballpark as what Jaime did. As for the quotes in the OP. They are just to show his contempt for the Freys. Pretty much everyone in Westeros has a low opinion of the Freys for what they have done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TallTyrion Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 What did Steelshanks Walton say right before he stabbed Robb? "Jaime Lanister sends his regards." Jaime is dissing the Freys because its in vogue, but he is not so huge a hypocrite to go after them and kill them over it. I thought Roose Bolton stabbed Robb, no? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larastone Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 Jaime has no room to judge the Freys for the Red Wedding, seeing as he broke guest rights when heshoved Bran out the window. agreed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wolves Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 Jaime has no room to judge the Freys for the Red Wedding, seeing as he broke guest rights when heshoved Bran out the window.Right!!! Than he sits and makes alliances with them rewarding them ill gotton gains in the name of the crown and House Lannister than has the audacity to be disgusted by them. Jaime doesn't care about the Freys' horrific crime he's actually rewarding them for their heinous crimes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Holy Goat Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 Jaime certainly despises the Frey's, but unless Lady Stoneheart somehow forces him to, he likely won't actually lift his sword against them. What did Steelshanks Walton say right before he stabbed Robb? That was Roose Bolton, not Steelshanks Walton. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TallTyrion Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 Right!!!Than he sits and makes alliances with them rewarding them ill gotton gains in the name of the crown and House Lannister than has the audacity to be disgusted by them.Jaime doesn't care about the Freys' horrific crime he's actually rewarding them for their heinous crimes. To be fair Jaime isn't really the one doing the rewarding. All the rewards the Freys got they negotiated with Tywin. Jaime has some authority like negotiating the terms for the Blackwood lands and the surrender of Riverrun but the big picture stuff is out of his hands. You can call him a hypocrite since he also broke guest right but I don't think it's fair to say he's rewarding the Freys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee-Sensei Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 I thought Roose Bolton stabbed Robb, no? It actually is. The Frey's at least had a legitimate grudge. Jaime just wanted to get back to sleeping with his sister. Like the Freys, he broke guest rights. He's not in a position to judge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TallTyrion Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 It actually is. The Frey's at least had a legitimate grudge. Jaime just wanted to get back to sleeping with his sister. Like the Freys, he broke guest rights. He's not in a position to judge. They're both vile actions don't get me wrong. I just figured killing about a thousand people at a wedding is worse than pushing one kid out of a window. In terms of mitigating the RW with the legitimate grievance the Frey's had you could also argue that Jaime's actions are mitigated since he was protecting himself and Cersei when he pushed Bran. It's not that he just wanted to get back to banging his sister if that gets out Jaime and his sisters heads are coming off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee-Sensei Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 They're both vile actions don't get me wrong. I just figured killing about a thousand people at a wedding is worse than pushing one kid out of a window. In terms of mitigating the RW with the legitimate grievance the Frey's had you could also argue that Jaime's actions are mitigated since he was protecting himself and Cersei when he pushed Bran. It's not that he just wanted to get back to banging his sister if that gets out Jaime and his sisters heads are coming off. A thousand adults with blood on their hands vs an innocent child. Not really, seeing as he shouldn't have been doing Cersei in the first place. It was treason, it was oath breaking and it led to the deaths of several thousand innocents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pod The Impaler Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 Jaime disdains the Freys. I do not think he's quite at the stage of intending to kill them, but using them as arrow fodder certainly doesn't trouble him.Push him a bit further and he just might, since there's only a few that he respects as even being dangerous, and those seem to be the more blackhearted ones. Not to mention he can't be happy that his name was tied into the Red Wedding (Jamie Lannister sends his regards) when he had nothing to do with it. Jaime doesn't know about that being said.But Lady Stoneheart does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TallTyrion Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 A thousand adults with blood on their hands vs an innocent child. Not really, seeing as he shouldn't have been doing Cersei in the first place. It was treason, it was oath breaking and it led to the deaths of several thousand innocents. Don't know how I ended up defending incest and attempted murder of a child, these books make you take some strange positions. Obviously he shouldn't be doing it in the first place I was just trying to make the point that his goal in trying to kill Bran was more self preservation than lust for Cersei but you're right that's not much of a defence. The adult soldiers with blood on their hands vs innocent child is an interesting moral case. The way I was looking at it is the Red Wedding is a bit like a war crime. Whereas Jaime's actions are more just simple murder. There's also the fact that the men killed at the Red Wedding aren't the only ones affected by those crimes. They all had families who are victims too and a lot of innocent children now don't have fathers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Booknerd2 Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 He's not too concerned with them right now. His aunt Genna is married to one too. He sounds more disgusted with Sybell after the in-your-face-you-sicken-me speech to her. He has bigger problems to deal with coming up, and commitments. But yeah, If a Frey was lying dead in the road in front of him, he might kick them. Or arrow fodder is a great point. A big "oh, well" if it happens, it happens. What can he say about them? He hurt Cat's family too. Ned, Bran, Edmure, etc... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee-Sensei Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 Don't know how I ended up defending incest and attempted murder of a child, these books make you take some strange positions. Obviously he shouldn't be doing it in the first place I was just trying to make the point that his goal in trying to kill Bran was more self preservation than lust for Cersei but you're right that's not much of a defence. The adult soldiers with blood on their hands vs innocent child is an interesting moral case. The way I was looking at it is the Red Wedding is a bit like a war crime. Whereas Jaime's actions are more just simple murder. There's also the fact that the men killed at the Red Wedding aren't the only ones affected by those crimes. They all had families who are victims too and a lot of innocent children now don't have fathers. I might be able to accept an argument for Jaime if he had done it for the kids, but to him they were just "squrts in Cersei's cunt". Again, these people weren't innocents. When soldiers go to war, they do it knowing they might die. And these soldiers had made people widows. They'd raped and they'd looted. Bran was a completely innocent child. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dofs Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 Some Freys are his kin (Emmon, for example), and many of the Freys are kin to other Westermen. So I don't think that he would attack them without specific reason. And RW is not a reason for him to attack them as he is not a Northman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TallTyrion Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 I might be able to accept an argument for Jaime if he had done it for the kids, but to him they were just "squrts in Cersei's cunt". Again, these people weren't innocents. When soldiers go to war, they do it knowing they might die. And these soldiers had made people widows. They'd raped and they'd looted. Bran was a completely innocent child. I didn't say they were innocents. Their children are though and their children are going to be deeply impacted now that their fathers are dead. My point is that the nature of the Red Wedding makes it a worse crime since it's impact is much larger. Hundreds of families are affected by it whereas Bran's murder would have been an isolated incident for the most part. I'm sure many of the Northern soldiers engaged in those actions but you can't say they are all guilty of rape and murder. Soldiers knowing the risks of war doesn't really apply to a feudal army. It's not like these guys volunteered they had no choice in the matter for the most part and the act of going to war doesn't automatically make your life less valuable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dofs Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 I might be able to accept an argument for Jaime if he had done it for the kids, but to him they were just "squrts in Cersei's cunt". But they are still Cersei's children that he know she loves a lot. And GRRM in the interview told that he thought about children :ninja: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee-Sensei Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 But they are still Cersei's children that he know she loves a lot. And GRRM in the interview told that he thought about children :ninja: No. That's what Ned thought it was about, but from Jaime's thoughts we know it was about himself and Cersei. I didn't say they were innocents. Their children are though and their children are going to be deeply impacted now that their fathers are dead. My point is that the nature of the Red Wedding makes it a worse crime since it's impact is much larger. Hundreds of families are affected by it whereas Bran's murder would have been an isolated incident for the most part. I'm sure many of the Northern soldiers engaged in those actions but you can't say they are all guilty of rape and murder. Soldiers knowing the risks of war doesn't really apply to a feudal army. It's not like these guys volunteered they had no choice in the matter for the most part and the act of going to war doesn't automatically make your life less valuable. Thousands of families were affected by Robb's Rebellion. All of them have more blood on their hands than, Bran. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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