Heresy 138 The Kings of Winter

[Black Crow]

Welcome to Heresy 138 [actually its 137 but I hit the wrong key] the latest edition of the long-running thread that takes a sideways look at the Song of Ice and Fire.

This thread series is called Heresy because it challenges a lot of the popular assumptions about the unfolding story; such as the Wall and the Nights Watch having been created to keep the Others at bay - and that the story is going to end with Jon Snow being identified as Azor Ahai. Indeed it questions whether the Others are really the threat they appear, or perhaps more accurately whether they are indeed an icy version of a Dothraki horde, or whether the threat they pose is at once more complicated and much closer to home.

The preview of the World book article on the Kings of Winter certainly gives us a lot of food for thought on this, portraying them as hard and dangerous men who conquered and absorbed all sorts of unchancy families with eldritch powers.

Kings of Winter

Thus, Heresy goes much deeper and wider and is about trying to figure out what’s really going on in the story beyond the headline game of thrones, by looking at clues in the text itself with an open mind, and by identifying GRRM’s own sources and inspirations, ranging from Celtic and Norse mythology such as the Cu Chulainn cycle, the Morrigan and the Mabinogion, all the way through to Narnia and the original Land of Always Winter, and even perhaps ultimately to recognizing the Heart of Winter not as a place on a map but as Conrad’s Heart of Darkness, for in Westeros Winter and Darkness are one and the same.

In fact the preceeding thread examines what lies beyond the Wall in the context of Conrad’s work. Some of it may surprise you and if you are not already familiar with the Heart of Darkness take a little time out to read it with ASoIF in the back of your mind.

Stepping into the world of Heresy might at first appear confusing. Normally we range pretty widely and more or less in free-fall, in an effort to try and reach an understanding of what may really be happening through the resulting collision of ideas. We are in other words engaged in an exercise in chaos theory. It’s about making connections, sometimes real sometimes thematic, between east and west, between the various beliefs and types of magick - and also about reconciling the dodgy timelines. However, beyond the firm belief that things are not as they seem, there is no such thing as an accepted heretic view on Craster’s sons or any of the other topics discussed here, and the fiercest critics of some of the ideas discussed on these pages are our fellow heretics.

If new to Heresy you may want to start off with this link to Heresy 100: http://asoiaf.wester...138-heresy-100/ where you will find a series of essays specially commissioned to celebrate our century by looking closely at some of the major issues. Links are also provided at the end of each of the essays to the relevant discussion thread, and for those made of sterner stuff we also have a link to Wolfmaid's essential guide to Heresy: http://asoiaf.wester...uide-to-heresy/, which provides annotated links to all the previous editions of Heresy.

Don’t be intimidated by the size and scope of Heresy, or by some of the ideas we’ve discussed over the years. We’re very good at talking in circles and we don’t mind going over old ground again, especially with a fresh pair of eyes, so just ask, but be patient and observe the local house rules that the debate be conducted by reference to the text, with respect for the ideas of others, and above all with great good humour.

[Glóin the Dark]

We say that this is the one hundred and thirty-eighth Heresy, but the oldest list I’ve found shows one hundred and thirty-seven Heresies, which suggests that it was written during—

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

We say that this is the one hundred and thirty-eighth Heresy, but the oldest list Ive found shows one hundred and thirty-seven Heresies, which suggests that it was written during--

Happy hour. What about the Kings of Winter?

.

[Arya Havinfun]

Wow! All these tantalizing new ideas about the Kings of Winter make my head spin.

Okay, getting back to basics here, it would seem that, in general, blue and white and gray are symbolically most associated with the North, as Icy colors evocative of cold & frosty living and hard rule.

Red and gold and black are more likely to be associated with hot and Fiery things, like dragons, Targaryens, Red Priests, and even Jaime’s luxurious and ‘kingly’ outfit when we first see him walk into the dining hall at Winterfell. (Yes, I know Lannisters generally favor red & gold, but Jaime’s outfit was pointed out by Jon as an outstanding thing, and indeed it was.)

So how does this fit with gray & white Starks fighting Red Kings of the Bolton line?

Might it may have something to do with Roose Bolton’s leeching fetish? According to Roose, there’s something bad, raging, and painful about blood that needs to be sucked away by leeches in order for one to be able to think. Sucking out the bad blood might not make one any more civilized, but mayhaps less hotheaded and more effective and patient as a strategist. Are the Boltons somehow preserving/harboring/infected with a Fire related heritage rather than, or mixed into, an Ice related one? The Boltons have burned Winterfell 3 times, as several folks have noted, and the most recent Bolton takeover of Winterfell is accompanied/followed by a massive snowstorm emerging from the castle itself, as if it were trying to vomit them out.

We know from Ned that some of the Starks suffered from “the wolf blood”, which apparently often got them into both trouble and early graves. Would this be an inheritance from occasional breeding with Boltons? (On a tangent, might Aerys’ mental status have benefitted from leeching?)

[Frey family reunion]

We say that this is the one hundred and thirty-eighth Heresy, but the oldest list Ive found shows one hundred and thirty-seven Heresies, which suggests that it was written during

Ha! Well played.

[wolfmaid7]

Guys i was sent this link by MolaF from another thread that has more excerpts.The resolution and the sizing may be a bit problematic but i just wanted to share. They are under the poiler tags once you get on the link.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/118969-grrm-on-twoiaf-yt-video/?p=6355546

[redrose]

Blackpool:- it's where all the Northeners went for their jollies in peace time, has a tower and theme park. It's also where the end of summer is marked by the " Blackpool illuminations"

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

Most of the notes on the King's of Winter in these excerpts seem to point towards the Starks being hostile towards the Old races and magic from the CotF. Also is this timeline of the Warg King after or before the Pact? Im assuming it is after the Pact

[Mace Cooterian]

We say that this is the one hundred and thirty-eighth Heresy, but the oldest list I’ve found shows one hundred and thirty-seven Heresies, which suggests that it was written during—

Exactly!....and ditto to Frey Fam Reunion.

[Mace Cooterian]

[quote name="Arya Havinfun" post="6357445" timestamp="The Boltons have burned Winterfell 3 times, as several folks have noted, and the most recent Bolton takeover of Winterfell is accompanied/followed by a massive snowstorm emerging from the castle itself, as if it were trying to vomit them out.

[Mace Cooterian]

By the way....I'm traveling this weekend and using an app for the first time to quote and post to the website. The app is called tapatalk and works with my iPhone. Not sure its picking up on the quotes properly.

[King Tyrion XX]

I caution building theories on the World Book as GRRM has said it's one of 3 histories he wrote for it.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

Most of the notes on the King's of Winter in these excerpts seem to point towards the Starks being hostile towards the Old races and magic from the CotF. Also is this timeline of the Warg King after or before the Pact? Im assuming it is after the Pact

I like this question. If the Warg King was subdued around the time the Andals invaded the mainland, then this might be in conjunction with the breaking of the pact. Possibly not entirely the Andals' fault.?

[Black Crow]

I like this question. If the Warg King was subdued around the time the Andals invaded the mainland, then this might be in conjunction with the breaking of the pact. Possibly not entirely the Andals' fault.?

As written the Warg King seems to have gone down long before the Boltons, while they in turn went down just before the Andals arrived.

[Free Northman Reborn]

The Warg King was subdued thousands of years before the Boltons were subdued. And the Boltons were subdued "as the first Andals were crossing the Narrow Sea in their longships".

[Free Northman Reborn]

It is clear from the World Book, which represents the best estimates that are available today about the historical timeline (based on academic translations of First Men runic records and ancient texts from the Nightfort), that there were thousands of years between the Long Night and the Stark conquest of most of the North except for the Red Kings of the Dreadfort, and then thousands MORE years before the Red Kings were finally subjugated. And that it was only at this point that the Andals first started crossing the Narrow Sea in longships.

So it pretty much confirms that there were easily 5000 years between the Long Night and the arrival of the Andals. I believe this contradicts many of the previously prominent theories of the Heresy Threads.

A likely timeline is therefore confirmed of the Long Night happening around 8000 years ago, and the Andals arriving maybe 3000 years ago.

[Black Crow]

Most of the notes on the King's of Winter in these excerpts seem to point towards the Starks being hostile towards the Old races and magic from the CotF. Also is this timeline of the Warg King after or before the Pact? Im assuming it is after the Pact

It seems pretty clear to me at least that the events described took place between the Long Night and the arrival of the Andals [hence all those eldritch powers derived from the terrible half-human children] and that the Starks were simply being ruthless rather than having a downer on the Children. Essentially it all comes back to what Maester Luwin said about there being 100 kingdoms of men before the Long Night and how it was followed by the forging of the Seven Kingdoms; this is just part of the process and if some of the three-fingered tree-huggers got wiped out in that process - tough.

The business of the greenseers though is interesting.

[Free Northman Reborn]

It seems pretty clear to me at least that the events described took place between the Long Night and the arrival of the Andals [hence all those eldritch powers derived from the terrible half-human children] and that the Starks were simply being ruthless rather than having a downer on the Children. Essentially it all comes back to what Maester Luwin said about there being 100 kingdoms of men before the Long Night and how it was followed by the forging of the Seven Kingdoms; this is just part of the process and if some of the three-fingered tree-huggers got wiped out in that process - tough.

The business of the greenseers though is interesting.

Maester Luwin actually said there were 100 kingdoms of the First Men when the ANDALS arrived. The Seven Kingdoms were only forged AFTER the Andals starting conquering and consolidating the petty kingdoms of the South.

Only in the North, it seems, were the petty kingdoms united by a First Men Royal House, into the Kingdom of the Starks, BEFORE the Andals arrived.

Hence, the Starks would have been a veritable superpower among the First Men kingdoms of the day. Seems like the Andals found 99 First Men kingdoms in the South, and one super First Men kingdom in the North.

[Black Crow]

Maester Luwin actually said there were 100 kingdoms of the First Men when the ANDALS arrived. The Seven Kingdoms were only forged AFTER the Andals starting conquering and consolidating the petty kingdoms of the South.

Only in the North, it seems, were the petty kingdoms united by a First Men Royal House, into the Kingdom of the Starks, BEFORE the Andals arrived.

Hence, the Starks would have been a veritable superpower among the First Men kingdoms of the day. Seems like the Andals found 99 First Men kingdoms in the South, and one super First Men kingdom in the North.

"The Andals were the first, a race of tall, fair-haired warriors who came with steel and fire and the seven-pointed star of the new gods painted on their chests. The wars lasted hundreds of years, but in the end the six southron kingdoms all fell before them. Only here, where the King in the North threw back every army that tried to cross the Neck, did the rule of the First Men endure. The Andals burnt out the weirwood groves, hacked down the faces, slaughtered the children where they found them, and everywhere proclaimed the triumph of the Seven over the old gods. So the children fled north—" (AGOT, Bran VII, (chapter 66).

[Free Northman Reborn]

"The Andals were the first, a race of tall, fair-haired warriors who came with steel and fire and the seven-pointed star of the new gods painted on their chests. The wars lasted hundreds of years, but in the end the six southron kingdoms all fell before them. Only here, where the King in the North threw back every army that tried to cross the Neck, did the rule of the First Men endure. The Andals burnt out the weirwood groves, hacked down the faces, slaughtered the children where they found them, and everywhere proclaimed the triumph of the Seven over the old gods. So the children fled north—" (AGOT, Bran VII, (chapter 66).

Maester Luwin is referring to the Six Southron kingdoms of today. He is not saying they were six southron kingdoms when the Andals arrived. There is another quote (I thought it was this one that made it clear, but it is apparently not), that states clearly that the Andals faced and conquered the multitude of petty kingdoms of the First Men when they arrived.