Heresy 138 The Kings of Winter

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Thinking some more about this nameless slave stuff, I wonder how much (if at all) Jon Snow's story/role might echo the origin story of the Faceless Men:

"...The dragonlords of the old Freehold were strong in sorcery, and lesser men defied them at their peril. The first Faceless Man was one who did."

"Who was he?" Arya blurted, before she stopped to think.

"No one," he answered. "Some say he was a slave himself. Others insist he was a freeholders son, born of noble stock. Some will even tell you he was an overseer who took pity on his charges. The truth is, no one knows..."

.

[Black Crow]

Thinking some more about this nameless slave stuff, I wonder how much (if at all) Jon Snow's story/role might echo the origin story of the Faceless Men:

"...The dragonlords of the old Freehold were strong in sorcery, and lesser men defied them at their peril.

.

I don't know about Jon Snow although its interesting the nameless slave turns up again. What I do find interesting in this quote is the emphasis on the Valyrians being sorcerors, rather as if dragon-riding was just a sideline. Its going to be interesting to see what the World book has to say.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

Going off on a slight tangent, when I nipped back to check the OP date of the first heresy I came across this long-forgotten gem by Efilnikufesin :

One thing I took as a hint that the Wall's protection works the opposite of what we think, is that it does allow the Others to control wights on the opposite side of the wall, whereas Jon/Ghost cannot sense Summer on the other side.

Edit: Maybe it doesn't work the same, but Bloodraven is able to reach out to Bran and many weirwoods across the Wall as well.

Alrighty then. When Jon goes north of the wall to 'parley' with the Mance, Jon does not reconnect with Ghost. Only when Ghost comes south of the wall do they reconnect.

Greenseers do not have that problem, or so it seems. Of course Bran used the proper password to cross the wall, and who knows how Bloodraven accomplished his crossing. :dunno:

ETA Then again, he may have been too much in the moment to notice. Being enslaved to the Watch's will and all? Acting as the servant he was made to be. Probably not, bUT it is possible.

In that moment, Jon did truly live the - better to die free than live as a slave option. Heh? Or was it die a slave or die free?

I'm being serious here.

[wolfmaid7]

Alrighty then. When Jon goes north of the wall to 'parley' with the Mance, Jon does not reconnect with Ghost. Only when Ghost comes south of the wall do they reconnect.

Greenseers do not have that problem, or so it seems. Of course Bran used the proper password to cross the wall, and who knows how Bloodraven accomplished his crossing. :dunno:

ETA Then again, he may have been too much in the moment to notice. Being enslaved to the Watch's will and all? Acting as the servant he was made to be. Probably not, bUT it is possible.

In that moment, Jon did truly live the - better to die free than live as a slave option. Heh? Or was it die a slave or die free?

I'm being serious here.

Dude.....that's deep. No Kronik needed.

[redrose]

While its a bit quiet I just wanted to revisit one of my many queries to see what you think. A long long time ago I asked why only crasters sons are given to the cold gods? Lots of answers ensued varying from craster illiminating male competition for his harem to boy soldiers.

Now Melisandre informs us that she thinks necromancy is involved with the wights and WWs and whilst doing a bit of a reread I was reminded of the necromancy work that Quiburn is doing in Kings landing in order to produce Robert Strong. The thing that interested me is the fact that he repeatedly asks cersei for women in order to produce Robert Strong. Eh, why women to produce the biggest dead knight in the realm?

Now I'm no expert on necromancy but could we be in a situation here where Quiburn needs girls to make boys so to speak and conversely we have the WW's taking crasters boys to make......

[Phillip Frye]

"No one," he answered. "Some say he was a slave himself. Others insist he was a freeholders son, born of noble stock. Some will even tell you he was an overseer who took pity on his charges. The truth is, no one knows..."

Right. "No one" knows. The Kindly Old Man is telling Arya the truth. "No one" knows how the Faceless Men arose in Valyria and who the first Faceless Man was. Arya missed her chance to say, "So, tell me, then."

[Phillip Frye]

While its a bit quiet I just wanted to revisit one of my many queries to see what you think. A long long time ago I asked why only Craster's sons are given to the cold gods?

Well, once there was a Lord Commander Stark on the Wall. He liked to spend his time with a wench in Whitetree. He got a little handsy, and forgot to use the tansy, and little baby Craster was born.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Right. "No one" knows. The Kindly Old Man is telling Arya the truth. "No one" knows how the Faceless Men arose in Valyria and who the first Faceless Man was. Arya missed her chance to say, "So, tell me, then."

Yeah, that "no one" identification is much like "no man" ... it gets tossed around throughout these books with more double meanings than we realize on first read. The "no man" line is great - almost funny, as it's so clearly a send up of Tolkien's riddle in RotK. Martin gets even more mileage out of it, though - using it more than once, and with multiple characters.

[Phillip Frye]

Now Melisandre informs us that she thinks necromancy is involved with the wights and WWs and whilst doing a bit of a reread I was reminded of the necromancy work that Quiburn is doing in Kings landing in order to produce Robert Strong. The thing that interested me is the fact that he repeatedly asks Cersei for women in order to produce Robert Strong. Eh, why women to produce the biggest dead knight in the realm?

I don't think that the White Walkers are created by necromancy, like Ser Robert Strong. However, I always read Qyburn's request for more female subjects as the need to get more subject upon which to experiment before he uses Ser Gregor's body to create the perfect warrior. You have to understand that poor Qyburn's inquiries at the Citadel were rudely interrupted before he perfected his techniques. I think that the other reason that he is so interested in women is that he already has a steady supply of men from the witch hunt for Margery's "lovers".

[Phillip Frye]

This leads me to state something that I have been thinking for awhile. I believe that when the valonquar comes to finish off Cersei, it will be something of a quiet denouement to her character arc. I really don't think that Cersei will care anymore (especially after all of her crazy schemes to avoid her prophesied fate). All of Cersei's children will already be dead, and I think that her beauty will be long gone. Basically, she may very well welcome her extirpation.

I think that the chief reason she will no longer be beautiful is that Cersei will fall into Qyburn's clutches before the end of the story, and he will probably mutilate her. She has no idea what a monster she has been feeding and grooming, thinking Qyburn beneath her concern and that he is her servant. Cersei's biggest weakness is her contempt for those she considers beneath her (pretty much everyone).

ETA: I pretty much think that Martin is going to take everything from Cersei before she exits the stage.

[redrose]

I don't think that the White Walkers are created by necromancy, like Ser Robert Strong. However, I always read Qyburn's request for more female subjects as the need to get more subject upon which to experiment before he uses Ser Gregor's body to create the perfect warrior. You have to understand that poor Qyburn's inquiries at the Citadel were rudely interrupted before he perfected his techniques. I think that the other reason that he is so interested in women is that he already has a steady supply of men from the witch hunt for Margery's "lovers".

I know Mel isn't the most reliable of narrators but Cersei gives Qyburn the option of all the prisoners and he specifically asks for the Girls which I find odd. In fact even Cersei feels guilty about giving him a particularily niaive girl who didn't understand why she was being put in cuffs if I remember correctly? Its an itch I can't scratch at the moment but I think we will find out the reasons why he needs girls in particular to create ungregor!

[redrose]

Right. "No one" knows. The Kindly Old Man is telling Arya the truth. "No one" knows how the Faceless Men arose in Valyria and who the first Faceless Man was. Arya missed her chance to say, "So, tell me, then."

I wouldn't be surprised if he was a targ and the FM gave the targs the heads up to get out of dodge before it blows. probably crackpot but who knows :dunno: (except GRRM)

[Black Crow]

While its a bit quiet I just wanted to revisit one of my many queries to see what you think. A long long time ago I asked why only Crasters sons are given to the cold gods? Lots of answers ensued varying from Craster eliminating male competition for his harem to boy soldiers.

Now Melisandre informs us that she thinks necromancy is involved with the wights and WWs and whilst doing a bit of a reread I was reminded of the necromancy work that Qyburn is doing in Kings landing in order to produce Robert Strong. The thing that interested me is the fact that he repeatedly asks Cersei for women in order to produce Robert Strong. Eh, why women to produce the biggest dead knight in the realm?

Now I'm no expert on necromancy but could we be in a situation here where Qyburn needs girls to make boys so to speak and conversely we have the WW's taking crasters boys to make......

I'm not sure about this one. I rather got the impression that the women are the real focus of Qyburn's researches and experiments and that Ser Robert Strong was just a side order to keep Cersei sweet.

As to why Qyburn is focusing on women, if he isn't just a nasty pervert the only thing I can really think of is that it might be connected with some of the discussion we've been having about magic passing down through the female line.

[Black Crow]

While its a bit quiet I just wanted to revisit one of my many queries to see what you think. A long long time ago I asked why only Crasters sons are given to the cold gods? Lots of answers ensued varying from Craster eliminating male competition for his harem to boy soldiers...

Just by the by, whatever was really going on at Craster's place and what really happens to his sons, the assertion that he was eliminating possible future competition has to be the most unlikely. Farmers need sons to help work the farm and ultimately need them to take over the farm [and the women] and keep their old Dad in minced mutton and mashed neeps in his old age.

[Black Crow]

Right. "No one" knows. The Kindly Old Man is telling Arya the truth. "No one" knows how the Faceless Men arose in Valyria and who the first Faceless Man was. Arya missed her chance to say, "So, tell me, then."

Yesterday upon the stair, I met a man who wasn't there.

He wasn't there again today, oh how I wish he'd go away.

:cool4:

[Mace Cooterian]

I'm not sure about this one. I rather got the impression that the women are the real focus of Qyburn's researches and experiments and that Ser Robert Strong was just a side order to keep Cersei sweet.

As to why Qyburn is focusing on women, if he isn't just a nasty pervert the only thing I can really think of is that it might be connected with some of the discussion we've been having about magic passing down through the female line.

Reading the past few posts about Qyburn and his fascination with women left me with the image of the Bride of Frankenstien, or perhaps more appropriate here the Bride of Robert Strong. It would be a very demented goal for Qyburn to have two dead people, which he had "reborn", consummate the relationship and ultimately give birth to....an abomination.

[Frey family reunion]

Yeah, that "no one" identification is much like "no man" ... it gets tossed around throughout these books with more double meanings than we realize on first read. The "no man" line is great - almost funny, as it's so clearly a send up of Tolkien's riddle in RotK. Martin gets even more mileage out of it, though - using it more than once, and with multiple characters.

If you have the books on digital, have some fun and type "no one" into the search feature. Then pay attention to the times that "no one" is then identified. For example, in a Sansa chapter in ASOS, she makes a pile of snowballs, and then laments that she has "no one" to throw them at. Then Baelish appears and she ends up throwing the snow balls at him. Later, Lysa tells her singer to let "no one" into her throne room, after she has Sansa brought to her. Then Baelish walks into the throne room from a back door.

[Frey family reunion]

I'm not sure about this one. I rather got the impression that the women are the real focus of Qyburn's researches and experiments and that Ser Robert Strong was just a side order to keep Cersei sweet.

As to why Qyburn is focusing on women, if he isn't just a nasty pervert the only thing I can really think of is that it might be connected with some of the discussion we've been having about magic passing down through the female line.

Speaking of which, I brought up earlier whether GRRM was tempted to call his next book the Wynds of Winter. GRRM has used this word several times in the books. Most notably in this song that ends up getting Symon Silver Tongue killed:

He rode through the streets of the city,

down from his hill on high,

O'er the wynds and the steps and the cobbles,

he rode to a woman's sigh.

For she was his secret treasure,

she was his shame and his bliss.

And a chain and a keep are nothing,

compared to a woman's kiss.

Wynds is a fairly obscure word (at least in the States) that means an alley that runs between houses. I wonder if GRRM may using the word to hint at a female line, a line that runs between the Houses of Westeros. The word was used again in ASOS in a passage I find particularly intriguing. In the passage Bronn is leading Tyrion to a "wine sink" where he is to meet up with the above mentioned Simon Silvertongue. Where Simon ends up singing his fatal song to Tyrion.

They turned at a corner, and again at the next, and rode slowly through a crowd of women at a well. Bronn led him along a curving wynd, through an alley, under a broken archway. They cut through the rubble where a house had burned and walked their horses up a shallow flight of stone steps. The buildings were close and poor. Bronn halted at the mouth of a crooked alley, too narrow for two to ride abreast. "There's two jags and then a dead end. The sink is in the cellar of the last building."

I wonder if GRRM is giving a subtle clue as to the path that one of our magical female lines may have taken in the story, in recent Westeros History. The broken archway could refer to Pyke since these words were directly used to describe Pyke before. The burned house could perhaps refer to Harrenhall. While the shallow stone steps and the mouth of the crooked, narrow alley could refer to the Stepstones and the Narrow sea. Not sure about some of the other imagery, but the women at the well sure makes me think of Mimir's well where Odin obtains wisdom. Speaking of which, when Tyrion finally finds his way to the wine sink he meets up with a "dead eyed" woman who gives him a cup of wine before she leads him to Symon.

I have a sneaking suspicion that the Redwynes and the Arbor are a more significant part of the story than we may suspect. And when I say significant, I mean they may hold a key to a lot of the hidden mysteries that I think are going on in our "secular" South. One of our stronger female characters is a daughter of House Redwyne, and note that her daughter is then married to her nephew (thus keeping the female line close).

[Black Crow]

If you have the books on digital, have some fun and type "no one" into the search feature. Then pay attention to the times that "no one" is then identified. For example, in a Sansa chapter in ASOS, she makes a pile of snowballs, and then laments that she has "no one" to throw them at. Then Baelish appears and she ends up throwing the snow balls at him. Later, Lysa tells her singer to let "no one" into her throne room, after she has Sansa brought to her. Then Baelish walks into the throne room from a back door.

Ah there's an interesting one. Not being a believer in the supposed textual signs and portents pawed over in another place, I'd be inclined to pass it over as being but co-incidence, but it fun to think about.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

If you have the books on digital, have some fun and type "no one" into the search feature. Then pay attention to the times that "no one" is then identified. For example, in a Sansa chapter in ASOS, she makes a pile of snowballs, and then laments that she has "no one" to throw them at. Then Baelish appears and she ends up throwing the snow balls at him. Later, Lysa tells her singer to let "no one" into her throne room, after she has Sansa brought to her. Then Baelish walks into the throne room from a back door.

Ah there's an interesting one. Not being a believer in the supposed textual signs and portents pawed over in another place, I'd be inclined to pass it over as being but co-incidence, but it fun to think about.

Remind me sometime to share my theory about Petyr Baelish as Jon Snow's father. It's less crackpot than you might think...