Heresy 138 The Kings of Winter

[Har!]

Here's one I prepared earlier:

In AGoT chapter 39, Ned has his infamous dream about the fight there as quoted many a time. He's woken from it by Vayon Poole and becomes involved in various bits of business, and on learning that Alyn, the new captain of his guard, has given the body of Jory Cassel into the keeping of the silent sisters to be taken home to Winterfell to lie beside his grandfather, he reflects <snip>

Lots of great commentary, but had to single this one out: :bowdown:

Just epic! :cheers:

ETA: yes, the whole post :)

[Black Crow]

Lots of great commentary, but had to single this one out:

I assume you're referring to the whole post rather than just this slightly tortured paragraph...

The point of it is that it provides a quite different interpretation of the business at the tower than the one promoted in another place presenting the encounter as "proof" that Jon Snow/Targaryen is the rightful king of Westeros.

[Har!]

Right, but that's present day Littlefinger. If we assume that the events with the Tullys and Brandon is what pushed LF toward his present road, would he already have been capable of executing such a plot while he was still a teenager? We've seen LF's original home on the 'little Finger, it's a hovel; surely not enough time had passed between his duel with Brandon and Robert's Rebellion for him to amass a network of intermediaries. In all likelihood, his network developed after he'd already grown in wealth and influence, a process that would have taken years.

This is a great point, it would be interesting to pin down the exact timeline of events: obviously Ned's older brother is still alive and kicking at the time of the the tourney at Harrenhall, but has he already given Littlefinger his scar?

If not, then what motive could LF have for abducting Lyanna... and if so, LF would likely not be in any shape to do any abducting. For that matter I just don't see any motivation for an abduction on his part. Even if you can supply motivation, I don't see any means to for him to follow thru.

I just reread Lysa's initial interview with Sansa, where she claims (thru her influence with new hubby/hand Lord Arryn) that she wangled Littlefinger's appointment to manage the fiscal affairs of Gulltown. It was this appointment that allowed LF's star to begin rise due to his talent for finance. Arryn then brought LF to King's Landing and the rest is, well, an unfinished history.

Granted Lysa is not the most reliable narrator, but in this instance her story sounds both logical and plausible, especially if one allows for the likelihood that it was LF who suggested to Lysa that she whisper his potential appointment into Jon Arryn's ear.

In any case, it would seem highly likely that LF's rise came after the rebellion, long after the events that precipitated it.

I suspect that LF learned that 'life is not a song' when he received his wound and was dismissed from Riverrun. A slight teen challenging Ned's elder brother to a duel is hardly the stuff of the 'clean hands' Realpolitik that we have come to expect out of LF in his later years.

Furthermore i would hazard that LF learned the value in chaos due to the fact opportunities that arose (and allowed him to rise) in the wake of the turmoil that the rebellion unleashed - so many new 'vacancies,' the opportunity for merit to show it's worth etc.

Not to dismiss a theory which I have not had an opportunity to read out of hand, but (there is that word again) without any further inkling of how such a theory would be developed i can only feel that the notion that LF somehow precipitated Robert's rebellion gets the cart before the horse.

It presumes the LF of two nearly two decades ago to be a 'player' when, to use his words, he was very likely just a 'piece.'

It presumes that the events surrounding the rebellion were so inexplicable that a 'Napoleon of crime' was necessary to set them in motion. (On this point I would object by citing Occam's razor.)

Finally, if this is the theory, then it mistakes the presumed need for a 'Dr Moriarty' as evidence that the dear Dr actually exists... and who better suited for the role than our own Littlefinger?

So instead of arguing from the established facts and probabilities, instead we have a theory that posits a 'prime mover.'

(A far less likely probability in my estimation and I would argue that it also cuts against the grain of GRRM's own established appreciation of serendipity and the role of blind chance in the making of history).

And then given the presumed need for a primer mover the theory argues in favor of a given character (or characters, i haven't forgotten our maesters) whose talents/character best fits them for this presumed role. This sounds backwards to me.

I have seen nothing that connects Lyanna to LF or the maesters for that matter. Rhaegar, on the other hand, is connected by his search for the knight of the laughing tree, his rather shocking public crowning of Lyanna, and of course the calumnies spread by Brandon Stark and Robert Baratheon.

Did Rhaegar 'abduct' Lyanna? If I had to bet money, i would say no. Testimony to Rhaegar's character... and Lyanna's too, would incline me to believe any dalliance was mutual. We can argue the true nature of relationship but at least we do have some textual basis for asserting that there was a relationship.

ETA: none of this should be taken to mean i am not interested in hearing more of any given theory, just adding my 2 cents to the ongoing conversation :cheers:

[Black Crow]

I agree insofar as I don't see any connection betwixt the young Petyr

judging by the frequency with which it crops up in the World book there may not be any significance to the name Bael...

and Lyanna, but that's not to rule out an intervention purely by way of mischief. Baelish' methods may have become more sophisticated over the years and his hand as well hidden as Moriarty's, but I think there may always have been a lot of Loki in him - even back then.

[Black Crow]

At this point, as we're on page 20 anyway, I think its time to open a new thread with the appropriate TWoIaF spoiler warning in the heading as there's some very interesting stuff directly relating to Heresy and I'd rather avoid the mess that has resulted on the R+L=J thread.

[Melifeather]

Har!, I don't think you are giving Littlefinger enough credit. IMO he's the stone giant hovering the Stark family at the beginning of Thrones. It's his manipulations that put the family in danger. It makes sense if he's the one that caused Brandon to believe Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna. LIke I've already stated, I don't see him as the father of Jon, but he did have reason to want Brandon dead. Furthermore, I think the timeline would allow for Littlefinger to go to Gulltown shortly after his duel with Brandon...likely after he healed, but probably within a year's time. I don't know when the duel happened, but it seems logical that it happened after Harrenhal tourney.

As for the new World book. I won't receive my copy until Nov 5. :crying: