Heresy 138 The Kings of Winter

[wolfmaid7]

Wolfmaid, that first SSM was so long, I couldn't quickly find the part related to wargs, but the second SSM that linked to the Citadel simply said that a warg is someone that can communicate with wolves. The word "can" doesn't mean restricted. I for one believe Varamyr is a warg.

Edited to add: I went back and looked at the first SSM Wolfmaid provided and found the definition using the word "bound", but if the term "bound" is exclusive and restrictive, then Bran isn't a warg either.

If Bound is restrictive then Bran is a Warg for the relationship does not flow from the dominance of the person.

I would love to hear a scenario where the differences between wargs and skinchangers makes a difference in the plot of the books. If you have one GREAT lets hear it. if not then let it go.

This is where i disagree with Feather and BC that the difference is unimportant to the the story. There is a reason why all the Greenseers were Wargs and there is a reason the direwolves are members of the Old Races. There is a reason why a weakness was taken advantaged of in order to get the Direwolves to the Stark children.When we question the importance we think in terms of the human characters and how we think they may benefit.Forgetting that their counterparts had a seat at the table when it came the important races predating man.The Direwolves aren't dumb animals whose will could be broken by a Skinchanger.They have a stake in this too and we will be foolish to think that they aren't playing the game so to speak.We should really get back to the OP by the way.

I think starting anywhere would be fine :) I've been meaning to see if any of Briggs' work is available for my Kindle.. I read some of her collections of folk tales (can't recall titles) in my teenage nose-in-book years..and that was (ahem..) multiple decades ago. When I tried to re-acquaint myself, shortly after JS&MN was released , she was long out of print, and difficult to find. Maybe she's enjoying a resurgance...

But for me, one of the things that ties SC and GRRM ( even more than history ,folk tale and mythology) is the amazing mind for detail.. and the puzzles.. For those who like to hunt for clues (nudge,nudge) both authors provide a feast.

wolfmaid ... thanks for trying to respond (upthread), but that wasn't what I meant at all.. I had looked at the end of the last thread and dutifully followed the links given at the beginning of this one. Somewhere along the way, there were poster(s?)..not book characters .. referring to the Warg King's or Greywolf's , or both of their .."(dire)wolves" .. and speculating that the Stark abilities came from one or both of them. The excerpt makes no mention of direwolves, so I think those are premature assumptions... and the lack of explicit mention may be fully intentional on GRRM's part.

Generally... this may not be well recieved here, but I'm one who thinks that many people may be too willing to see blood sacrifice as necessary , or desirable from the viewpoint of the old gods... and now with this excerpt, I wonder if the vision of the woman apparently making sacrifice in front of the young WF heart tree, is from a time when the Boltons held or burned WF..?

I do get what you are saying and i guess we'll have to wait for the WB.

[wolfmaid7]

I think that important though he is it might be unwise to view Roose in isolation. As I pointed out earlier the picture we're painted is one of bloody anarchy up North until order is imposed by the Starks. Now there is no longer a Stark in Winterfell the Old Powers are wakening again and the Boltons are brake loose along with everything else.

I agree with this if anything it seems Winter is in open rebellion,so if anything this solidifies the Boltons are wrong for WF.Also,to me anyway and i'll go back to the Oak and Holly King reference.The Boltons despite what blood they may or may not have were'nt pegged for this.I like to also use the interesting point that Bolton is a Bolton.Jon has Stark blood but he is a Snow.

[Melifeather]

If Bound is restrictive then Bran is a Warg for the relationship does not flow from the dominance of the person.

This is where i disagree with Feather and BC that the difference is unimportant to the the story. There is a reason why all the Greenseers were Wargs and there is a reason the direwolves are members of the Old Races. There is a reason why a weakness was taken advantaged of in order to get the Direwolves to the Stark children.When we question the importance we think in terms of the human characters and how we think they may benefit.Forgetting that their counterparts had a seat at the table when it came the important races predating man.The Direwolves aren't dumb animals whose will could be broken by a Skinchanger.They have a stake in this too and we will be foolish to think that they aren't playing the game so to speak.We should really get back to the OP by the way.

I do get what you are saying and i guess we'll have to wait for the WB.

What I meant by that was in reference to your sentence that a warg is bonded to a wolf and no other animal. Bran skin-changed into ravens/crows and Hodor as well as Summer. So, by your rules Bran isn't a warg, because he can skin-change into other animals.

[Ice Queen]

Consider yourself ignored. Old Nan tells that it was "the Stark of Winterfell and Joramun of the wildlings" who brought him down; the Nights King is the only king mentioned.

As to the oak king and holly king and who really built the Wall I'd say that pretty much passes for orthodoxy among most heretics.

Well excuse me. Do you always treat new people like that? No wonder so many people never come back. No need to be a jerk.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Well excuse me. Do you always treat new people like that? No wonder so many people never come back. No need to be a jerk.

Actually, I believe he was attempting a joke (see below). I'm sure no offense was intended, and it's always great to have new voices in Heresy! :cheers:

...If I'm wrong, ignore me :)...

Consider yourself ignored...

BC, I'm afraid you forgot your smiley... ---> :)

[King Tyrion XX]

Well excuse me. Do you always treat new people like that? No wonder so many people never come back. No need to be a jerk.

People don't come back because they can't handle admitting their fairytale ideas are bunk.

Like R+L=J. What happened to JNR?

[bemused]

Well excuse me. Do you always treat new people like that? No wonder so many people never come back. No need to be a jerk.

I think you can be certain he was just being playful ..I'm not in heresy that much, for other reasons, but my past experience of BC says you shouldn't take it to heart.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

I would love to hear a scenario where the differences between wargs and skinchangers makes a difference in the plot of the books. If you have one GREAT lets hear it. if not then let it go.

The difference is a wolf and not a wolf. What GRRM set this up for???

I think it is in the power of the skinchanger. The more powerful can skinchange a wolf. A greenseer is an even more powerful warg. It seems a hierarchical skinchanging system. That is the importance I see. It's all about power, man.

Now, as bemused was saying, the other Kings we are discussing are not given the description of Direwolves as their familiars. Maybe they were, maybe the were not. I also don't see a reason to say these other Wargs were Starks.

I think the Starks brought in the blood to their clan, but I think they already had what it takes to skinchange.

Another thought... The Starks may be the only one who can bond with direwolves. That could be how they overpowered the other skinchangers and wargs in the past. Might be the Direwolf depletion is from culling the power of the Starks by killing off the Dires. I know I know. It's just speculation folks!

A question I asked a long time ago to no response, 'where is Bloodraven's wolf?'

[bemused]

I think that important though he is it might be unwise to view Roose in isolation. As I pointed out earlier the picture we're painted is one of bloody anarchy up North until order is imposed by the Starks. Now there is no longer a Stark in Winterfell the Old Powers are wakening again and the Boltons are brake loose along with everything else.

M-m-m-m.. well, I know I'm beating my own drum again , but if, when you say the Old Powers , you're referring to the weather at WF in ADWD, then I have to say that I don't think it's because there isn't a Stark in WF, but because there is ( albeit in secret). Politically speaking , he (Benjen) can't officially take up the mantle, but magically speaking , he fills the bill - until a politically acceptable replacement can be brought in. It seems to me that the magic inducing the snow storm is friend to neither Baratheon nor Bolton , and that Roose , who has so diligently been trying to ensure that there will be no Stark in WF (and in spite of whatever magical knowledge he poseses), doesn't have a full grasp of the workings of the Stark/ WF magical connection.

I agree with this if anything it seems Winter is in open rebellion,so if anything this solidifies the Boltons are wrong for WF.Also,to me anyway and i'll go back to the Oak and Holly King reference.The Boltons despite what blood they may or may not have weren't pegged for this.I like to also use the interesting point that Bolton is a Bolton.Jon has Stark blood but he is a Snow.

Around WF, at least, I think winter is entering defensive mode, and though Jon's "Snow" name is fitting, it's the fact that he's no less a Stark than any with a traditional right to the name that counts.

[Phillip Frye]

Has anyone considered that Roose Bolton entered Winterfell fully knowing that this action would trigger the storm emanating from Winterfell? I don't think that Roose is particularly worried if everyone else dies, except him and maybe his next pale-eyed receptacle.

[Phillip Frye]

I just kidding about Ramsey being the pale-eyed receptacle. Everyone knows that Roose's immorality is fueled by the dead infant children underneath the Dreadfort. I wonder what the catacombs there look like.

[Phillip Frye]

What happened to JNR?

I know that JNR is lurking, but I am very disappointed that his protege, Addicted to Whomping Weirwoods, left me hanging when I brought up the casting of Varamyr Sixskins.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Let me use the opportunity to say that the Heresy project has built 138 threads on nothing more substantial than Old Nan's bedtime story and a few throwaway lines by Maester Luwin and Sam.

I shudder to think how far it is going to go with a whole world book to work with.

If only you guys were happy to take things at face value, and accept the common history as told to us. Sigh. You guys are like the X-files of Westeros. With Black Mulder as your leader.

[alienarea]

Let me use the opportunity to say that the Heresy project has built 138 threads on nothing more substantial than Old Nan's bedtime story and a few throwaway lines by Maester Luwin and Sam.

I shudder to think how far it is going to go with a whole world book to work with.

If only you guys were happy to take things at face value, and accept the common history as told to us. Sigh. You guys are like the X-files of Westeros. With Black Mulder as your leader.

But do we have Feather Scully or Scullymaid7?👽

[Phillip Frye]

I take the theory that Vargo Hoat cut off the right hand of Jaime Lannister at face value. I am solidly, 100% behind that theory.

[Ulthosian Stark]

Let me use the opportunity to say that the Heresy project has built 138 threads on nothing more substantial than Old Nan's bedtime story and a few throwaway lines by Maester Luwin and Sam.

I shudder to think how far it is going to go with a whole world book to work with.

If only you guys were happy to take things at face value, and accept the common history as told to us. Sigh. You guys are like the X-files of Westeros. With Black Mulder as your leader.

With something like LOTR you'd be right. But there is a theme of misinformation rolling in ASOIAF. Perfect example is the Red Wedding.

Real version was a slaughter of unprepared people. Over a slight. A big slight albeit, still just a slight. Not to mention the whole breaking a sacred right thing.

The version being taught in Freyville is the Northmen turned into direwolves and attacked their gracious and gallant hosts! Oh the horror and monstrosity of the Starks! Oh the guest rights breakage!

So you see, you can't take anything at face value that happened in the past. One book may say the real thing, but its destroyed and only books written under a false pretense survive. Those books would be taken as fact by later peoples, until other proof surfaced.

We are waiting for the "other proof" in the form of the WoW and aDoS. Can't really use the World book I guess, since it was written by a Maester in present or near present series time.

[alienarea]

I take the theory that Vargo Hoat cut off the right hand of Jaime Lannister at face value. I am solidly, 100% behind that theory.

I'm with you on this. I also support the theory that Ned Stark was executed in King's Landing.

[Black Crow]

Well excuse me. Do you always treat new people like that? No wonder so many people never come back. No need to be a jerk.

It was indeed a jocularity responding to your "ignore me", but if I caused offense then I cheerfully apologise for no offense was intended. :bowdown:

[Black Crow]

I know that JNR is lurking, but I am very disappointed that his protege, Addicted to Whomping Weirwoods, left me hanging when I brought up the casting of Varamyr Sixskins.

Hangs around on the R+L=J thread these days. Looks as though he went there to play and got sucked into it...

[Black Crow]

M-m-m-m.. well, I know I'm beating my own drum again , but if, when you say the Old Powers , you're referring to the weather at WF in ADWD, then I have to say that I don't think it's because there isn't a Stark in WF, but because there is ( albeit in secret). Politically speaking , he (Benjen) can't officially take up the mantle, but magically speaking , he fills the bill - until a politically acceptable replacement can be brought in. It seems to me that the magic inducing the snow storm is friend to neither Baratheon nor Bolton , and that Roose , who has so diligently been trying to ensure that there will be no Stark in WF (and in spite of whatever magical knowledge he poseses), doesn't have a full grasp of the workings of the Stark/ WF magical connection.

Around WF, at least, I think winter is entering defensive mode, and though Jon's "Snow" name is fitting, it's the fact that he's no less a Stark than any with a traditional right to the name that counts.

I'm referring to the Old Powers awakening as warned of by the late Qhorin Halfhand. Its not just the weather over Winterfell, but the trees having eyes and everything else. We're seeing a return to the anarchy described in The Kings of Winter, which is why its going to be important that there should be a new King.