First Night in "The Princess and The Queen"... disturbing?

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Historically, the "right of first night" may have existed, but there is very little evidence of it outside the writings of those who disapproved of it. This has given rise to the idea that it existed solely as propaganda against political enemies, or against prior regimes since overthrown. Which does not necessarily prove that it never happened. But there was probably never a time when it had general acceptance.

It has existed. http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derecho_de_pernada#Pruebas_documentales_directas_e_indirectas

And sadly, I've actually seen the modern deviation happening. Many rich kids losing their virginities with the maids, with approval and encouragement of the parents, something the girls couldn't refuse because they would lose their jobs, and the society being ok. with it because they "work for them" or they owed them that much (many girls were brought from small towns).

[Pod The Impaler]

Is there anything to suggest this, other than the maester saying so?

No. Then again, there is a lot that maesters say that should be taken with a grain of salt. A big grain.

[ChillyPolly]

LOL You do realize, don't you, that GRRM created not only the Maesters, the Targs, and various other assholes, but also.....those saintly Faith practitioners of The Almighty Seven, right?

I don't see your point. While it is a cliche among anti-religious ideologues to accuse religion of being corrupt, such criticisms must assume the existence of moral standards by which those corrupt religious persons may be judged wanting. Very often these are the same moral standards promoted by the religion itself (hence the charge of "hypocrisy").

The Faith of the Seven is modeled on the Medieval Church, in terms of its ethics, and it is certainly not true that the Medieval Church supported the right of First Night as a matter of general principal.

[l2 0 5 5]

I'm certainly not going to be upset with an author who portrays a fictional character to demonstrate immoral beliefs.

I also don't think that it's bad writing. That excerpt was just the perspective of a man who happened to believe that women should have felt honored to sleep with a Targ. There's plenty of honorable men in the series who would not wish to act in an obsolete tradition such as the First Night.

GRRM has also written about a lot of strong women throughout the series; so to think that he has any kind of misogynistic perspective towards these characters is ridiculous. The women who fall victim to rape in this series is just a realistic event that is due to happen in a fictional world that is ruled by men; in which some hold very barbaric beliefs about what they are owed from women.

[Forever May]

meh, I don't get why people sugar coat the kind of writing GRRM does anyway. His characters are well realised, his plots complicated and his delivery often surprising - but he writes from a consistently masculine perspective and there is a certain fetish element that lacks any intellectual value in ASoIaF. It's not as bad as John Norman got with the Gor series, though it does feel very much like focussing on some female characters in a David Gemmell/Robert E Howard world.

On Martin's delivery - it is indeed amazing. I still remember reading the Red Wedding for the first time. A bird had carried my head into the clouds and I wasn't really paying attention, just another damn feast, you know how it goes. And then people started dying. It took me a moment to realize what I was reading. That woke me up. It's the only time a book has ever put my, how you say, on the edge of my seat.

As for his masculine writing style (as you name it), I am mixed about it. It is realistic, if based on our own history, and that makes it very good. Yet then you consider, not all of it is realistic. I mean, dragons and white walkers aren't real. It seems as though, when writing about some things, he let his imagination know no limits, utter fantasy freedom. Yet when it comes to writing about women, it's like his mind is wearing a ball and chain. Strictly historical accuracy. Whilst his female characters are good and he shows them the respect and development they deserve, they are decidedly unimaginative. In many cases, at least. He gave Brienne a sword and she knows how to use it, as does Arya. But generally the place reserved for women in almost all of the societies is so drab.

But any negative views of Martin's writing are tempered when I try writing my own novel. In the story I am writing, there is one society ruled by a female clergy, the society is a theocracy, and they lead a raiding viking like culture. Yet it is very hard to make this work in a believable fashion and I constantly find myself re-reading Martin's books to bring me back down to reality. Women are at an absurd disadvantage to men in many cases and, if you ignore this, your story will be lame. That doesn't mean you have to limit your imagination as women can kick ass realistically, but it does mean if you intend to put a female protagonist at the top of the world, you have to get pretty damn creative to both get and keep her there.

For these reasons, I have a lot of respect for Martin's writing. If people want to criticize his treatment of female characters, they really need to try writing their own novel and prove they can do a better job first. At least, I believe so.

[Forever May]

Maybe its just written as yet another way to confuse or confound as to whom was fathered by whom?

Yes. Soon he is going to have to write a history of the histories of Westeros. And after that, he might decide to rewrite the entire lot of them from some different view points. And after that, maybe he'll get back to writing the Winds of Winter. Maybe.

[Forever May]

Yeah I think we have to believe most of what is being said, or else what is the point?

I like to think Martin expects us to use our powers of perception and make decisions for ourselves as a reader... if you're taking the entire book at face value, chances are you have absolutely no idea what is going on.

[The King in Black]

What about the Targ women? How did no woman before the Good Queen raise her voice against this? ( Or was Jaeherys the first enlightened Targ Male ?)

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Yeah I think we have to believe most of what is being said, or else what is the point?

These books are not written in third-person omniscient form. They're biased, even in the main series, based on the POVs and the perspectives, experiences and prejudices they bring. Would you suggest that someone take everything in the main series completely at face value as fact? I should hope not. Likewise, everyone should read the novellas and, yes, the World book knowing that there are biases and blind spots baked in. That's kind of the entire point of making them written by a "maester" at all.

That doesn't make the series/novellas/companion book not worth reading, it just means that we need to use some analytical skill to sort out where the bias might be instead of just allowing ourselves to be spoonfed.

[The Red Widow of Coldmoat]

These books are not written in third-person omniscient form. They're biased, even in the main series, based on the POVs and the perspectives, experiences and prejudices they bring. Would you suggest that someone take everything in the main series completely at face value as fact? I should hope not. Likewise, everyone should read the novellas and, yes, the World book knowing that there are biases and blind spots baked in. That's kind of the entire point of making them written by a "maester" at all.

That doesn't make the series/novellas/companion book not worth reading, it just means that we need to use some analytical skill to sort out where the bias might be instead of just allowing ourselves to be spoonfed.

So in other words, these histories that Martin is writing have a lot in common with real world history books

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

So in other words, these histories that Martin is writing have a lot in common with real world history books

Basically. History is written by the winners.

[Forever May]

That doesn't make the series/novellas/companion book not worth reading, it just means that we need to use some analytical skill to sort out where the bias might be instead of just allowing ourselves to be spoonfed.

Exactly.

Anyway, I am surprised at the number of people who think the commonfolk may actually have shared the maester's view that Targaryen's were divine and maids might have enjoyed the practiced of the First Night. Here I have that queasy feeling in my stomach again like a belly full of enchanted cream is about to be heaved back up. It is hard to reply to those few people who expressed such views other than just, nope, that will never be the case. To hold such a view displays these people have a very shallow faith in the commonfolk that borders on contempt, not to mentioned the afore mentioned m-word.

[Falstaff_Stark]

Exactly.

Anyway, I am surprised at the number of people who think the commonfolk may actually have shared the maester's view that Targaryen's were divine and maids might have enjoyed the practiced of the First Night. Here I have that queasy feeling in my stomach again like a belly full of enchanted cream is about to be heaved back up. It is hard to reply to those few people who expressed such views other than just, nope, that will never be the case. To hold such a view displays these people have a very shallow faith in the commonfolk that borders on contempt, not to mentioned the afore mentioned m-word.

What's the difference in believing in divine right or that the earth is in the center of the universe? Just because Nietzsche and thrasymachus are scary doesn't mean they were wrong.

Imagine yourself born in a time of 1% literacy, 0 legal rights, 50% infant mortality, 35 is elderly, and any wound or sickness could kill you. You have no weapons or skill at weapons. You will never venture 2 miles from where you are born. And, as far as you know, what the septons, lords, and maesters say is true. First night isn't even close to the worst thing going. Judging by the last couple of centuries here, alcohol and your male relatives were already there. Life sucked, and it sucked worse for women. And everyone accepted it.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Also worth noting, perhaps, that for all the talk of the Targs "blessing" the people of Dragonstone with their seed, there still isn't any actual evidence that the Dragonstone-based successful dragonriders were actually Targaryen/Valyrian.

It's suggested in the World book that Alyn and Addam were actually Velaryon, and Corlys's bastards passed off as Laenor's. They have the most definitive Valyrian ancestry, but 1. only Addam was successful and 2. they were from Driftmark, not Dragonstone.

We're told explicitly that not all of the people who came forward to attempt to ride the dragons were seeds. We see Silver Denys, who claims to be Maegor's bastard (which, unless Denys is absolutely ancient, is probably unlikely), fail. Ulf the White succeeded in riding Silverwing but he's described as a man-at-arms, a group included in the list of people who came forward who weren't seeds. Likewise, there's nothing notable about Hugh the Hammer to suggest that he's a Targaryen, either, other than his success with Vermithor. And finally there's Nettles, who looks nothing like a Targaryen, which in and of itself means little, except that we see exactly how she trains Sheepstealer. Other than Hugh being a blacksmith's bastard, the origins of all three of these people are a mystery, and nowhere in the novella is their specific ancestry addressed, nor is it obvious that they made their attempts even claiming to be dragonseeds.

Point is, being "seeds" could easily be something the maester retconned onto those three, using circular logic (they're Targs because they rode dragons and rode dragons because they're Targs); any or all of them might not have been Valyrian at all. So the maester may be fellating the idea of Targaryen ubermensch syndrome for nothing, on top of the disgusting nature of it from the start.

[Mithras]

The ambiguity with the "seeds" is one thing but Denys Darklyn and Jon Roxton had no dragonblood at all with a probability of 99.9% (given the marriage habits of Targaryens and their time of birth). Denys Darklyn died trying to tame a dragon and Jon Roxton thought that he could cliam Vermithor after killing the Two Betrayers.

One of Rhaenyra's sons claimed that "only the Targaryens can ride dragons". If the blood of the dragon is a prerequisity to ride dragons, Rhaenyra should know it by heart. At that time, Rhaenyra was in the charge of hatcheries, there were many dragons and Barth's book was still in press. Therefore, Rhaenyra should be an utter fool to let her LC of the KG try to mount a dragon without having Targ blood. Or this is another case a maester didnot assess conflicting accounts correctly.

[Ser Arthur Hightower]

What's the difference in believing in divine right or that the earth is in the center of the universe? Just because Nietzsche and thrasymachus are scary doesn't mean they were wrong.

Imagine yourself born in a time of 1% literacy, 0 legal rights, 50% infant mortality, 35 is elderly, and any wound or sickness could kill you. You have no weapons or skill at weapons. You will never venture 2 miles from where you are born. And, as far as you know, what the septons, lords, and maesters say is true. First night isn't even close to the worst thing going. Judging by the last couple of centuries here, alcohol and your male relatives were already there. Life sucked, and it sucked worse for women. And everyone accepted it.

:agree:

[Ulthosian Stark]

Just saying, if the women on the first night truly did take it as an honor because they truly believed the targs were closer to the gods and they'd get rich to boot, they probably enjoyed it.

I just get the feeling it wasn't like.. Really rape at all, it seems completely consensual. You grow up knowing your lord is going to "claim his rights", thinking he's a demi god, and your going to get rich, I just don't see how it qualifies as rape in this case

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Just saying, if the women on the first night truly did take it as an honor because they truly believed the targs were closer to the gods and they'd get rich to boot, they probably enjoyed it.

I just get the feeling it wasn't like.. Really rape at all, it seems completely consensual. You grow up knowing your lord is going to "claim his rights", thinking he's a demi god, and your going to get rich, I just don't see how it qualifies as rape in this case

Yeah because that's what every woman wants on her wedding night, sex with a stranger who oh by the way has the authority to kill her or ruin her family if she resists, if he so chooses. And every woman is ultimately for sale, right? You can enjoy any sex so long as you're paid, amirite?

Come the fuck on.

[The King in Black]

Yeah because that's what every woman wants on her wedding night, sex with a stranger who oh by the way has the authority to kill her or ruin her family if she resists, if he so chooses. And every woman is ultimately for sale, right? You can enjoy any sex so long as you're paid, amirite?

Come the fuck on.

If Dragon riding self proclaimed demigods say so in a society that conditions it's small folks to feudalism, small folk might consider it so

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

If Dragon riding self proclaimed demigods say so in a society that conditions it's small folks to feudalism, small folk might consider it so

I think you're underestimating people's awareness of what was going on, honestly. Being a peasant doesn't mean you're an idiot and that you can't recognize rape when you see it. It's not as if we have any peasants' actual perspectives on it, apart from a maester who has a vested interest in kissing Targ ass. And the idea that sexual access to women and the "right" to impregnate them is something that can be bought, more or less, with no consideration that the women might not want that, is pretty goddamn offensive.

I'd actually think that the people on Dragonstone would be less likely to buy the Targaryen demigod bullshit, seeing as they were actually in close proximity to them and thus able to see their foibles and flaws from a much closer perspective. All it takes is some Dragonstone maid to gossip about some Targ catching the pox and there goes your sheen of divinity.