LF & the Targaryen Tapestries

[CassBlackfyre]

The idea put forward in this post is that Littlefinger is planning to ingratiate himself with fAegon the blackfyre pretender. I think that the tapestries are integral to this plot and i'll explain why :)

"Tyrion had a morbid fascination with

dragons. When he had first come to King’s Landing for his sister’s wedding to Robert Baratheon, he had made it a point to seek out the dragon skulls that had hung on the walls of Targaryen’s throne room. King Robert had replaced them with banners and tapestries, but Tyrion had persisted until he found the skulls in the dank cellar where they had been stored. He had expected to find them impressive, perhaps even frightening. He had not thought to find them beautiful. Yet they were. As black as onyx, polished smooth, so the bone seemed to shimmer in the light of his torch."

Tyrion, AGOT.

So here we have Tyrion seeking out the dragons, noting that Robert had replaced them with banners and tapestries. When he finally does find them he notes that they are black. This is the first reference we have where Tapestries and Black dragons are connected. It's pretty loose so far i know, but i've seen way more crackpot theories with tonnes of support!

"Behind the throne, twenty Lannister guardsmen waited with longswords hanging from their belts. Crimson cloaks draped their shoulders and steel lions crested their helms. But Littlefinger had kept his promise; all along the walls, in front of

Robert’s tapestries with their scenes of hunt and battle, the gold-cloaked ranks of the City Watch stood stiffly to attention, each man’s hand clasped around the haft of an eight-footlong spear tipped in black iron."

"Through the high narrow windows of the Red Keep’s cavernous throne room, the light of sunset spilled across the floor, laying dark red stripes upon the walls where the heads of dragons had once hung. Now the stone was covered with

hunting tapestries, vivid with greens and browns and blues, and yet still it seemed to Ned Stark that the only color in the hall was the red of blood."

Eddard, AGOT.

Dragons and Tapestries again, this time noting what the tapestries actually show, just some boring hunting tapestries. Green and brown and blue. Not the red and black of house targaryen.

“Not as yet. In truth, he seems quite unconcerned. His last letter mentions the rebels only briefly before beseeching me to ship him some

old tapestries of Robert’s.”

Cersei, AFFC

Petyr laughed. “Perhaps I shall. Or better still, to our sweet Cersei. Though I should not speak harshly of her, she is sending me some

splendid tapestries. Isn’t that kind of her?”

Sansa, AFFC

So here we see that Cersei has dispatched some "Old" Tapestries to LF in the Vale. As we've seen from Eddard and Tyrions chapters the Tapestries that hung in the throne room showed images of hunts and battles, Roberts favourite things, how "Old" could they possibly be? Roberts rebellion was 16/17/18 years ago by this point. Hardly old.

“This way, if it please my lords.” Alayne led them down the arcade past a dozen

splendid tapestries. Ser Lothor Brune stood

outside the solar. He opened the door for them and followed them inside

Sansa, AFFC

It's obvious the Vale isn't crying out in desperate need for any tapestries there is at least a dozen splendid ones right there, so why send off to KL? So here is where I think it gets interesting. The tapestries that LF sent away for were Not the unnecessary and pointless hunting tapestries but instead a series of artworks depicting many and more Targaryen kings and Targaryen family history.

The walls had been bare on his first visit too. Tyrion had pointed out the squares of darker stone where tapestries had once hung. Ser Raymun could remove the hangings, but not the marks they’d left. Later, the Imp had slipped a handful of stags to one of Darry’s serving men for the key to the cellar where the missing tapestries were hidden. He showed them to Jaime by the light of a candle, grinning; woven portraits of all the Targaryen kings, from the first Aegon to the second Aenys. “If I tell Robert, mayhaps he’ll make me Lord of Darry,” the dwarf said, chortling.

Jaime, AFFC.

This is the first time tapestries are mentioned after Cersei and LF's arrangement. I don't think this is by coincidence.

I believe that these Targaryen tapestries are the ones LF has acquired from cersei, which i doubt she knows, I'm sure she believes that it is the hunting tapestries of Robert that are being shipped north. But as pointed out, the Vale is awash with splendid tapestries. That the tapestries of Roberts would hardly be considered "old"

I believe that at some point, knowing the Vale is undeclared, fAegon will send an envoy to treat with the lords of the vale. Perhaps fAegon himself. Upon arriving at the Vale he will see the Eyries throne room bedecked in Targaryen tapestries that Cersei so kindly had shipped to LF :)

I've been up all night and I'm struggling to put this into more-convincing words, but i'm sure some of you can see where i'm coming from with this even if you dont agree.

Thoughts? :)

[Thanos Targaryen]

Interesting point. It invites three possibilities:

1) If Aegon goes to the Vale, the tapestries on display show that the Valemen are on his side;

2) If Aegon goes to the Vale, the tapestries lull him into a false sense of security and Baelish tries to assassinate him;

3) For reasons of his own, Baelish is using the tapestries as some kind of subliminal suggestion to encourage the Vale lords to support Aegon's claim.

I'm thinking though that the "throne room looked like it was full of blood" reference that Ned made was more about the architecture and material that built the Red Keep, i.e. reddish stones and probably reddish tiling on the floors. Even Robert's pro-Baratheon tapestries wouldn't be enough to take away the effect that the Red Keep was, and always would be, a Targaryen possession. The ludicrous Baratheon/Lannister interregnum is merely a moment in time before the rightful owners come home.

[CassBlackfyre]

Interesting point. It invites three possibilities:

1) If Aegon goes to the Vale, the tapestries on display show that the Valemen are on his side;

2) If Aegon goes to the Vale, the tapestries lull him into a false sense of security and Baelish tries to assassinate him;

3) For reasons of his own, Baelish is using the tapestries as some kind of subliminal suggestion to encourage the Vale lords to support Aegon's claim.

I'm thinking though that the "throne room looked like it was full of blood" reference that Ned made was more about the architecture and material that built the Red Keep, i.e. reddish stones and probably reddish tiling on the floors. Even Robert's pro-Baratheon tapestries wouldn't be enough to take away the effect that the Red Keep was, and always would be, a Targaryen possession. The ludicrous Baratheon/Lannister interregnum is merely a moment in time before the rightful owners come home.

Robert sat down again. “Damn you, Ned Stark. You and Jon Arryn, I loved you both. What have you done to me? You were the one should have been king, you or Jon.”

“You had the better claim, Your Grace.”

Eddard AGOT.

I think implying that Eddard himself had a claim from a Targaryen ancestor, just more removed than Roberts own ancestor. One possibility I think is the Tapestry showing this, showing that Sansa has a drop of Dragon blood and making her a worthy consort for fAegon.

we'll find out about that (hopefully) in TWOIAF or the she-wolves of winterfell.

[juanml82]

Not even Cersei would fail to notice that LF is asking Targaryen tapestries.

IMO, it's LF's way of telling her that he has everything under control: KL receives letter and intelligence of trouble in the Vale, with the Vale Lords demanding LF's resignation... and LF, instead of asking for help, asks for frivolities as if, despite the news Cersei is receiving, LF doesn't consider himself loosing control of the situation.

[Haegon Sand]

Robert sat down again. “Damn you, Ned Stark. You and Jon Arryn, I loved you both. What have you done to me? You were the one should have been king, you or Jon.”

“You had the better claim, Your Grace.”

Eddard AGOT.

I think implying that Eddard himself had a claim from a Targaryen ancestor, just more removed than Roberts own ancestor. One possibility I think is the Tapestry showing this, showing that Sansa has a drop of Dragon blood and making her a worthy consort for fAegon.

we'll find out about that (hopefully) in TWOIAF or the she-wolves of winterfell.

This Idea has com to me a few weeks ago. I think

Egg's wife could be a Stark

[The Red Widow of Coldmoat]

Robert sat down again. “Damn you, Ned Stark. You and Jon Arryn, I loved you both. What have you done to me? You were the one should have been king, you or Jon.”

“You had the better claim, Your Grace.”

Eddard AGOT.

I think implying that Eddard himself had a claim from a Targaryen ancestor, just more removed than Roberts own ancestor. One possibility I think is the Tapestry showing this, showing that Sansa has a drop of Dragon blood and making her a worthy consort for fAegon.

we'll find out about that (hopefully) in TWOIAF or the she-wolves of winterfell.

Based on what we've seen from the Stark family tree preview, if there is a Targaryen ancestor for Ned, it's from before the Dance. (or at least through a more obscure line, since it's not from the Stark line)

Not even Cersei would fail to notice that LF is asking Targaryen tapestries.

IMO, it's LF's way of telling her that he has everything under control: KL receives letter and intelligence of trouble in the Vale, with the Vale Lords demanding LF's resignation... and LF, instead of asking for help, asks for frivolities as if, despite the news Cersei is receiving, LF doesn't consider himself loosing control of the situation.

Agreed. I don't think there's any parcticular reason to connect Littlefinger asking for Robert's tapestries with there also being Targaryen tapestries. Also the tapestries Littlefingers gets from Cersei almost certainly aren't the ones from Darry since Tyrion and Jaime didn't tell anyone else about those tapestries. Besides, if Littlefinger were asking for tapestries from a completely separate location, that would probably have come up.

This Idea has com to me a few weeks ago. I think

Egg's wife could be a Stark

We have absolutely no indication whatsoever as to who Egg's wife was, but even if his wife were a Stark, it would not give the Starks any sort of claim to the throne, so it has nothing to do with Ned's "better claim" line

[Lord Ross]

We have absolutely no indication whatsoever as to who Egg's wife was, but even if his wife were a Stark, it would not give the Starks any sort of claim to the throne, so it has nothing to do with Ned's "better claim" line

I always assumed that as the rebellion went on Robert became the natural figure head. I never assumed that he declaired himself a king like Renly or Stannis in TWoTFK. Robert's enigmatic personalty, stature and strength made him the better PR man for the rebellion. After the war, or at least once they looked like they had a real chance of changing dynasty, Robert became the natural alternative King. His Targ lineage was just helpful in making that seem more legitimate.

Ned doesn't actually need Targ blood to have a claim from that rebellion. He should've been King because the war was started after his brother and father were murdered, and his sister was Kidnapped. Which pales in comparison to the Heir to the throne making off with a betrothed.

This makes sense to me, otherwise why would a Baratheon sit a Iron Throne following a war started by injustices against house Stark?

[Lord Ross]

Oh and back to the thread.... I'm more inclined to agree with juanml82.

[Mithras]

A serious flaw in the theory is that those Targaryen tapestries are in Castle Darry and there is no way Cersei could get them and send them to LF.

The only noteworthy part is this IMO:

"Through the high narrow windows of the Red Keep’s cavernous throne room, the light of sunset spilled across the floor, laying dark red stripes upon the walls where the heads of dragons had once hung. Now the stone was covered with hunting tapestries, vivid with greens and browns and blues, and yet still it seemed to Ned Stark that the only color in the hall was the red of blood.

"green" is for the greens during the First Dance; "brown" is for the brown dragon (Daemon II Blackfyre covered in mud) and "blue" is for the blue dyed hair of Young Griff (and also for Tessarion the Blue Queen as the dragon of Daeron the Daring).

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

It's obvious the Vale isn't crying out in desperate need for any tapestries there is at least a dozen splendid ones right there, so why send off to KL? So here is where I think it gets interesting. The tapestries that LF sent away for were Not the unnecessary and pointless hunting tapestries but instead a series of artworks depicting many and more Targaryen kings and Targaryen family history.

It is mentioned to specifically be tapestries from Robert. Robert wouldn't have kept tapestries about the Targaryens, so no, I don't think this is it. Especially since LF has yet to learn about fAegon.

This Idea has com to me a few weeks ago. I think

Egg's wife could be a Stark

Yet Egg's wife being a Stark would give Eddard absolutely no claim to the throne.

The quote you responded to ("You had the better claim") simply comes from the fact that Jon, Ned and Robert were the three leaders of the Rebellion. All three could easily claim the throne, by the rights on Conquest. Yet Roberts claim was the best, as he also had the bloodties that Jon Arryn and Ned were lacking.

[lady jellybean]

Robert sat down again. Damn you, Ned Stark. You and Jon Arryn, I loved you both. What have you done to me? You were the one should have been king, you or Jon.

You had the better claim, Your Grace.

Eddard AGOT.

I think implying that Eddard himself had a claim from a Targaryen ancestor, just more removed than Roberts own ancestor. One possibility I think is the Tapestry showing this, showing that Sansa has a drop of Dragon blood and making her a worthy consort for fAegon.

we'll find out about that (hopefully) in TWOIAF or the she-wolves of winterfell.

[lady jellybean]

I think your right. Robert took the throne cuz his was the better claim.

[aryagonnakill#2]

I read a decent theory that LF had something hidden in the tapestries. Not sure what it could be but it kind of made sense.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

I read a decent theory that LF had something hidden in the tapestries. Not sure what it could be but it kind of made sense.

Sansa's Stark maiden cloak from when she married Tyrion. Remember he's going to bring her out at the wedding to Harry with her hair back to auburn and her Stark maiden cloak? He can't do that unless he has a Stark maiden cloak.

Just because LF told Cersei they were some of Robert's old tapestries, doesn't mean they really were. Though if they are Robert's they will possibly help prove that Tommen and Myrcella can't be Robert's children. The black hair will feature prominently in Baratheon tapestries.

Someone said the Targ tapestries are at Castle Darry. You really think those are the only Targ tapestries in Westeros? The Targaryens ruled for nearly 300 years. There will be more than just a handful of tapestries.

[CassBlackfyre]

Not even Cersei would fail to notice that LF is asking Targaryen tapestries.

IMO, it's LF's way of telling her that he has everything under control: KL receives letter and intelligence of trouble in the Vale, with the Vale Lords demanding LF's resignation... and LF, instead of asking for help, asks for frivolities as if, despite the news Cersei is receiving, LF doesn't consider himself loosing control of the situation.

I think she would actually, Cersei has much more to worry about than some tapestries. And she obviously didn't go looking for them herself, she would have delegated that to some steward or servant. LF had many of his own "little birds" and people in his service in KL. Including the three people who cersei trusts most. The kettleblacks. I don't think its outside the realm of possibility that someone in LF's pocket would be tasked with dealing with something as mundane as putting a box on a boat.

I think thats counter productive. If i asked somehow how they were doing and they changed the subject and mentioned something totally unrelated, while ignoring the problem I know they're having, then that would only make me more suspicious/concerned, not less :) But i'm not cersei!

I always assumed that as the rebellion went on Robert became the natural figure head. I never assumed that he declaired himself a king like Renly or Stannis in TWoTFK. Robert's enigmatic personalty, stature and strength made him the better PR man for the rebellion. After the war, or at least once they looked like they had a real chance of changing dynasty, Robert became the natural alternative King. His Targ lineage was just helpful in making that seem more legitimate.

Ned doesn't actually need Targ blood to have a claim from that rebellion. He should've been King because the war was started after his brother and father were murdered, and his sister was Kidnapped. Which pales in comparison to the Heir to the throne making off with a betrothed.

This makes sense to me, otherwise why would a Baratheon sit a Iron Throne following a war started by injustices against house Stark?

Agree agree & disagree. I think it started out that way yep, Robert as the big strong charismatic leader, he was the obvious choice to lead the rebellion. even though it seemed Jon arryn did most of the diplomatic work and it was he who declared the rebellion, no? but once it became obvious that House Targaryen couldn't be allowed to rule anymore then the throne must pass to someone else. Judging from what Ned said "You had the better claim" then it was nothing to do right of conquest, there is no "claims" per sae in right of conquest. It was obvious (for me) that Ned meant Roberts descending from eggs daughter Rhaelle, his Targaryen blood gave him the better claim.

A serious flaw in the theory is that those Targaryen tapestries are in Castle Darry and there is no way Cersei could get them and send them to LF.

The only noteworthy part is this IMO:

"green" is for the greens during the First Dance; "brown" is for the brown dragon (Daemon II Blackfyre covered in mud) and "blue" is for the blue dyed hair of Young Griff (and also for Tessarion the Blue Queen as the dragon of Daeron the Daring).

Yep you're right, obviously there is no proof for *any* of this except the coincidental mention of the Targaryen tapestries directly after LF & Cerseis arrangement is discussed. It's a leap of faith but i find it hard to believe that Tyrion, with his fascination of history... dragons... books.. learning etc would have allowed those Tapestries to lay rotting in a cellar in Darry where no one would ever see them. I think he would have had some packed up and taken with him back to KL. No proof for it, it's just speculation :)

I think that's a stretch isnt it? Those are three random colours that represent grass and sky and dirt... they are hunting tapestries so they would show scenes of nature. I could get on board with them representing the Dance & fAegon if they were green and black and red..

[CassBlackfyre]

It is mentioned to specifically be tapestries from Robert. Robert wouldn't have kept tapestries about the Targaryens, so no, I don't think this is it. Especially since LF has yet to learn about fAegon.

Yet Egg's wife being a Stark would give Eddard absolutely no claim to the throne.

The quote you responded to ("You had the better claim") simply comes from the fact that Jon, Ned and Robert were the three leaders of the Rebellion. All three could easily claim the throne, by the rights on Conquest. Yet Roberts claim was the best, as he also had the bloodties that Jon Arryn and Ned were lacking.

But I don't think that's a fact is it? When they were fighting the war do you think they agreed it was a race, first one to the chair gets it keepsies? Robert has Targaryen blood, Jon arryn also *Possibly* from Daella targaryen when she married a lord of the eyrie. and I think a currently unknown distant targaryen ancestor in Ned starks line, whether it came from his father or from his unknown mother. who was "part flint" (if i remember right) It was you had the "better" claim not you had "The" or the "Only" claim

Sansa's Stark maiden cloak from when she married Tyrion. Remember he's going to bring her out at the wedding to Harry with her hair back to auburn and her Stark maiden cloak? He can't do that unless he has a Stark maiden cloak.

Just because LF told Cersei they were some of Robert's old tapestries, doesn't mean they really were. Though if they are Robert's they will possibly help prove that Tommen and Myrcella can't be Robert's children. The black hair will feature prominently in Baratheon tapestries.

I like all of these theories too! I don't think they can be in-exclusive either, like you said on another thread LF is gooooood.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

But I don't think that's a fact is it? When they were fighting the war do you think they agreed it was a race, first one to the chair gets it keepsies? Robert has Targaryen blood, Jon arryn also *Possibly* from Daella targaryen when she married a lord of the eyrie. and I think a currently unknown distant targaryen ancestor in Ned starks line, whether it came from his father or from his unknown mother. who was "part flint" (if i remember right) It was you had the "better" claim not you had "The" or the "Only" claim

Jon Arryn had started the Rebellion, Robert Baratheon had personally led multiple important battles, and Ned had "conquered" the Iron Throne. All three could make a claim of conquest. Robert, in addition, had a claim of blood.

Legally, Robert's claim by blood didn't matter anymore. The kinslayer be acursed, by being declared a rebel, and later killing Rhaegar, Robert's blood would not give him any right to inheritance. But his bloodline was still there, for all those who cared. And thus, Ned was installed.

Daella Targaryen married a certain Lord Arryn, yet their offspring seems to have been only Lady Aemma, whose lineage we know, ends with Rhaegar, Viserys and Daenerys.

It was Lady Jeyne Arryn who came to rule the Vale. Her nickname was "The Maiden of the Vale" suggesting that at least for a very long time, she did not have any children, if she ever did. Jeyne couldn't have had any brothers (otherwise, those brothers would have inherited the Vale, instead of her), and any children of her would be expected to inherit.

Yet, new in the MUSH 2.0, we have Joffrey Arryn, a most unlikely heir, born in 100AC. The MUSH 2.0 added characters who would appear in the World Book, making it as canon as possible, so Joffrey Arryn indeed once ruled the Eyrie.

With the knowledge that Jeyne doesn't seem to have been a child of Daella's (and thus was the only child of a younger brother of Daella's husband), combined with the knowledge that Jeyne's line did not continue the line of Arryn's, Jon Arryn won't have any Targaryen blood from Daella. (And thus, Joffrey Arryn either descended from an even younger brother of Daella's husband, or from a younger son of Hubert Arryn, who inherited the Vale during Aenys' reign, IIRC, after Lord Ronnel and his sons were killed; Hubert already had 6 sons of his own at that point).

As to House Stark, we've seen the family tree, for the most part. Up to Cregan Stark, there was no Targaryen wife. Cregan won't have had a Targaryen mother (grandchild of Jaehaerys and Alysanne), nor does it seem likely that it was a child of Jaehaerys and Alysanne (five are still unaccounted for) had married into House Stark, as Cregan, and the North, would then be more invested in the Dance, which they definitly weren't. Prior Targaryen generations did not include any women available to marry into House Stark.

So no, that quote above does not refer to any claims by blood that House Arryn or House Stark would have. It is about the rights of Conquest, which was strongest for Robert because he had the blood claim added to that ;)

[Ibbison from Ibben]

If the tapestries are themselves symbolically important (they may not be, as LF may have a contact inside the Red Keep that is smuggling something out with them), I see three possibilities:

1 - The color scheme AntZ noted above.

2 - They are hunting tapestries, formerly owned by House Baratheon. Possible associations

LF is seizing something the Baratheons once owned. (The IT or Storm's End.)

LF will ally with Lord Hunter.

LF will take up hunting, a leisure activity of nobles. (unlikely)

LF will "hunt" houses whose sigils are animals that are normally targets of hunts. (stags, foxes, boars)

3 - The tapestries replaced dragon skulls on the walls of the throne room. Possible associations

LF will not ally with any dragons, but seek to replace them.

By getting the dragon skull replacements removed from Red Keep, LF is making room for the return of the dragon skulls. (Targs)

Ain't symbolism fun? You can make it mean anything you want, if you squint and hold your tongue just right.

[Federico]

Someone made a point in this thread about LF's "Little Birds" that I think is important (what would be sent would be whatever his "Little Birds" pack into the shipment). So, the royal seal might ensure that no one opens and sees the contents, which may or may not be tapestries, Robert's or whatever.

LF has excelled at learning secrets and is wealthy. The Dary keep was taken and pillaged by Gregor's men. So, LF could have bought the tapestries pillaged from there. Then again, almost 300 years of rule, there are likely many more.

Regardless, LF likely gas something entirely different he needs shipped with low risk of being viewed. One example might be some of the stuff captured from Ned's household in the Hand's Tower: jewelry, cloaks, seal, furs, coat of arms, books, branded chests, etc.

[CassBlackfyre]

Jon Arryn had started the Rebellion, Robert Baratheon had personally led multiple important battles, and Ned had "conquered" the Iron Throne. All three could make a claim of conquest. Robert, in addition, had a claim of blood.

Legally, Robert's claim by blood didn't matter anymore. The kinslayer be acursed, by being declared a rebel, and later killing Rhaegar, Robert's blood would not give him any right to inheritance. But his bloodline was still there, for all those who cared. And thus, Ned was installed.

Daella Targaryen married a certain Lord Arryn, yet their offspring seems to have been only Lady Aemma, whose lineage we know, ends with Rhaegar, Viserys and Daenerys.

It was Lady Jeyne Arryn who came to rule the Vale. Her nickname was "The Maiden of the Vale" suggesting that at least for a very long time, she did not have any children, if she ever did. Jeyne couldn't have had any brothers (otherwise, those brothers would have inherited the Vale, instead of her), and any children of her would be expected to inherit.

Yet, new in the MUSH 2.0, we have Joffrey Arryn, a most unlikely heir, born in 100AC. The MUSH 2.0 added characters who would appear in the World Book, making it as canon as possible, so Joffrey Arryn indeed once ruled the Eyrie.

With the knowledge that Jeyne doesn't seem to have been a child of Daella's (and thus was the only child of a younger brother of Daella's husband), combined with the knowledge that Jeyne's line did not continue the line of Arryn's, Jon Arryn won't have any Targaryen blood from Daella. (And thus, Joffrey Arryn either descended from an even younger brother of Daella's husband, or from a younger son of Hubert Arryn, who inherited the Vale during Aenys' reign, IIRC, after Lord Ronnel and his sons were killed; Hubert already had 6 sons of his own at that point).

As to House Stark, we've seen the family tree, for the most part. Up to Cregan Stark, there was no Targaryen wife. Cregan won't have had a Targaryen mother (grandchild of Jaehaerys and Alysanne), nor does it seem likely that it was a child of Jaehaerys and Alysanne (five are still unaccounted for) had married into House Stark, as Cregan, and the North, would then be more invested in the Dance, which they definitly weren't. Prior Targaryen generations did not include any women available to marry into House Stark.

So no, that quote above does not refer to any claims by blood that House Arryn or House Stark would have. It is about the rights of Conquest, which was strongest for Robert because he had the blood claim added to that ;)

well all i can say is wow. i stand corrected