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Some questions on WW


TheSpymaster

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Based on what we know happened last time and the ferocity with which they were able to invade, plus the fact the society of the first men was likely not near as developed as current asoiaf, tells me that this move south is one of desperation. Like all the old races, the others are dying out, and this last push is a last battle against extinction. Like men did the first time in the war, they only want to survive

That is a really good point. GRRM has briefly mentioned in an interview about wanting to explore the nature of genocide in fantasy. (link http://www.rollingstone.com/tv/news/george-r-r-martin-the-rolling-stone-interview-20140423?page=3 ) Anything is possible at this point.

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no no, i wouldnt assume that at all. just because there's a big chunk of an element they seem to manipulate, after the night's king was driven back, it's possible the watch made a pact with the cotf and together they made the weirwood gate underneath the wall, AFTER the night's king was driven back.

you had mentioned in a post that there wernt any female others, but we see one in the night's king lore...and all his records were destroyed. So it could be entirely possible that this story was made up by the 14th lord commander to oust the night's king....

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you had mentioned in a post that there wernt any female others, but we see one in the night's king lore...and all his records were destroyed. So it could be entirely possible that this story was made up by the 14th lord commander to oust the night's king....

precisely. though as someone open for debate, i do have to consider the possibility she DOES exist as well. two sides sorta thing

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but what if the night's king was actually innocent ......why else would you destroy all the records about someone....?? just because he is bad...?? naah that dsnt sound right. The 14 th lord commander did it just to wipe out evidences against him. I guess NK is being potrayed in the books in a similar way to rhaegar...first we think he is bad kinda and then as the story goes on more revelations will come and he ll be not so bad after that ....!!

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Thats cool..the Orcs of cotf...Others. :cool4: .

The wights did come throught the wall...though they were carried in!!

Were they wights before they crossed the wall or did they rise as wights once across? They were found fairly close to the wall and they may have been killed very recently. We really do not know what the deal is with Others and wights at this point, but I cannot wait to find out. In regards to what they showed us of the Night's King on the show, there is indeed more to them than just mindless zombies. Stay tuned!

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Were they wights before they crossed the wall or did they rise as wights once across? They were found fairly close to the wall and they may have been killed very recently. We really do not know what the deal is with Others and wights at this point, but I cannot wait to find out. In regards to what they showed us of the Night's King on the show, there is indeed more to them than just mindless zombies. Stay tuned!

they were wights before they crossed the wall .... they had blue eyes and no animals went near them

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So i have some questions on others ....Dunno whether they have been asked before..

1) if WW are so hellbent on invading westeros why dont they just cross the bay of seals on ships and invade westeros. Atleast they could send wights via seas...

2) Do they only plan to invade westeros ...or will they also invade ESSOS. Why dont they capture a ship at hardhome and invade essos.

3) In AGOT the wights are pretty powerful on the other side of the wall. so why dnt WW send the monstrously strong wights to scale the wall..??

4) What if Others are doing a la Ra's al ghul....destroying the wall and westeros as they no longer can stand the coruption...

5) Could the others have a genuine motive to invade westeros...or is killing and wighting their only aim...?? Is there any good in them..??

( I believe the others have a good side and their motives are much more than just invading westeros and killing people. I think their invasion is a well planned one and is in response to some events triggered by the humans. They could eventually turn out to be good guys or a race that is fighting for its survival. )

I think you are pushing ahead too fast.

If we look at the Other's 'expansion' its a gradual push out from the Lands of Always Winter slowly heading south and east. Hardhome is only now being reached, as is the wall.

I think the more southerly 'operations' of the Others (eg early Craster's Keep appearances, GoT prologue) were more like scouts further south. Only now are they really 'coming up against' the Wall. They may have begun going around it already ("dead things in the water") if that is possible, but its only just starting to happen now.

you had mentioned in a post that there wernt any female others, but we see one in the night's king lore...and all his records were destroyed. So it could be entirely possible that this story was made up by the 14th lord commander to oust the night's king....

We see a woman, not an other in the Nights King lore. Pale skinned and blue eyed, yes. Possibly an Other even. But the NK giving an inhuman super-cold being his seed - not happening physiologically. (General concept amusingly well treated in the NSFW Oglaf.com webcomic - think frozen appendage breakage and similar...)

I think it more likely that the NK and his human woman lost an internal power struggle with other humans who demonised him and blamed it on the woman as propaganda and the propaganda and the propaganda stuck and became legend.

More likely, but Other options are still possible, one way or another. No doubt still distorted by time though.

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The Others are possibly no different to humanity in that their motives are nothing other than displacing other species for their own improvement and then adjusting their environment to suit themselves. This is not necessarily wholly evil, it's just a personification of the worst aspects of human nature.



Perhaps that's why the Others aren't just malevolant with no motive other than evil itself. Humanity believes it is justified (at least, most humans seem to without thinking) in perpetually expanding itself at the expense of its environment and other species. The very act of using a computer is proof of my complicity in this, as uncomfortable as admitting that is. I don't want it to be true, but I reap the benefits of humanity's paths in history.



The Others are, at least, I think they may, represent this aspect of human nature. From our perspective, condemning a species to death and then ruining their lands by bringing eternal winter is an act of pure evil... but it's hardly far removed from what humans do throughout the world to other species.


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There is no proof that there are no female Others. For all we know ALL of them could be female.



The only reason for wiping out all of the records prior to Night's King is if he was an integral part of the Watch from the very beginning, and thus his name is all over the records. Sort of supports the idea that the Last Hero ended up becoming NK.



NQ was not a regular woman. Her skin was cold as ice and she had Other/wight eyes. Old Nan referred to her as dead, which if I recall is what she thinks of the Others as well. NQ could easily have been an Other. If they can do fun stuff with ice, they might also be able to transform their appearances.


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We don't know enough of them to even discern if they have a gender. GRRM has described them as a different kind of life.

True, but until such time as he gives us the information we want, it's all speculation.

I've got a feeling that the WWs are an old magical race, in a similar vein to the COTF. Their Long Night can be seen similarly to the First Men invasion, and the Andal invasion of Westeros, as in an expansion of their territories and power.

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The only reason for wiping out all of the records prior to Night's King is if he was an integral part of the Watch from the very beginning, and thus his name is all over the records. Sort of supports the idea that the Last Hero ended up becoming NK.

All records of him were destroyed, not all records period.

Which does not support the idea that the LH became the NK.

NQ was not a regular woman. Her skin was cold as ice and she had Other/wight eyes. Old Nan referred to her as dead, which if I recall is what she thinks of the Others as well. NQ could easily have been an Other. If they can do fun stuff with ice, they might also be able to transform their appearances.

... in a legend best part of 8000 years later.

Take away the exaggeration of legend and propaganda of victorious enemys and she could easily be a pale skinned blue eyed woman. Even teh Legend says she was a Woman, not an Other.

Yes, she may have been an Other. I don't however, see a man giving an Other-woman his seed as being even possible, probably. Sex with an ice-being might work physiologically for a woman, but not for a man.

So on balance of probabilities, at this stage I think the story probably contains considerable exaggerations/propaganda lies, especially about the NQ.

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All records of him were destroyed, not all records period.

Which does not support the idea that the LH became the NK.

... in a legend best part of 8000 years later.

Take away the exaggeration of legend and propaganda of victorious enemys and she could easily be a pale skinned blue eyed woman. Even teh Legend says she was a Woman, not an Other.

Yes, she may have been an Other. I don't however, see a man giving an Other-woman his seed as being even possible, probably. Sex with an ice-being might work physiologically for a woman, but not for a man.

So on balance of probabilities, at this stage I think the story probably contains considerable exaggerations/propaganda lies, especially about the NQ.

Sam said ALL of the early records are missing. He doesn't have info on LCs 1-12 and then 14-674/998.

How many women have you known who had skin cold as ice? You don't see how reproduction between a human man and an Other woman would be possible? This is a fantasy series...with magic. And if women can mate with male Others I see no reason why the reverse wouldn't work.

Half-way solution: Night's Queen was an Otherized human or live-wight. She was not an Other, but neither was she a regular human.

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Sam said ALL of the early records are missing. He doesn't have info on LCs 1-12 and then 14-674/998.

Thats because the First Men didn't use written records, not because all records of LCs1-13 were deliberate destroyed.

The NK legend says that after he was vanquished all records and mentions of him were destroyed which is why not even his name is known. Sounds very similar to the heretical Pharoah Akhenaten.

How many women have you known who had skin cold as ice? You don't see how reproduction between a human man and an Other woman would be possible? This is a fantasy series...with magic. And if women can mate with male Others I see no reason why the reverse wouldn't work.

Skin cold as ice would very easily be a lie or exaggeration. How would any of the enemies who defeated them know anyway?

Cold as ice is not conducive to maintaining an erection. For most at least. No erection, no ejeculation, no seed.

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Thats because the First Men didn't use written records, not because all records of LCs1-13 were deliberate destroyed.

The NK legend says that after he was vanquished all records and mentions of him were destroyed which is why not even his name is known. Sounds very similar to the heretical Pharoah Akhenaten.

Skin cold as ice would very easily be a lie or exaggeration. How would any of the enemies who defeated them know anyway?

Cold as ice is not conducive to maintaining an erection. For most at least. No erection, no ejeculation, no seed.

If the First Men didn't use written records, then there should not have been any records of Night's King TO destroy. Night's King was a member of the Watch before he was elected LC, and likely a prominent member. Getting rid of every mention of him would mean getting rid of a lot of records previous to his LC reign as well. Simple logic.

The Last Hero's name isn't known either. Odd, don't you think? The greatest hero Westeros has ever known, and no one bothered to preserve his legacy by at least remembering his name. You'd think once they started writing someone would have written that one down.

Um...the Others bring an extreme cold with them. It's in the books. It makes no sense for them to bring extreme cold and have warm skin.

Take it up with the author. I didn't write this stuff.

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Thats because the First Men didn't use written records, not because all records of LCs1-13 were deliberate destroyed.

The NK legend says that after he was vanquished all records and mentions of him were destroyed which is why not even his name is known. Sounds very similar to the heretical Pharoah Akhenaten.

They had records but they were written in runes set in stone

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Um...the Others bring an extreme cold with them. It's in the books. It makes no sense for them to bring extreme cold and have warm skin.

Then why is her skin mentioned and not the 'aura' of extreme cold?

Answer - because perhaps she wasn't an Other and therefore didn't actually have ice-cold skin. That perhaps thats merely propaganda from her enemies.

Perhaps.

Take it up with the author. I didn't write this stuff.

Don't need to. There's a very simple explanation. In a series where the actual memories of living people remembering events they particpated in are realistically unreliable (eg Sansa's kiss) its hardly likely that 8000 year old legends are entirely accurate.

Consider, for example, what stories might be told in just a couple of generations about Robb Stark or Stannis Baratheon and Melisandre, should the current Bolton/Frey alliance 'win' to write the histories.

Then multiply that out 8000 years...

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