Why the Dothraki can take westeros

[bryden blackfish tully]

Yes I know there have been a hundred threads like this, but going through those I am surprised how many people think this isn't possible and until recently I fully agreed, until I had to make a paper for my history class on the mongol empire.

While doing my research I immediately started to see all the links between these people and the Dothraki, which are pretty much the same as the links between the vikings and the Ironborn: they are essentially the same, except that GRRM's version is dumbed down. But if there would be some small revolutionary as for instance a prophecised great leader who will united the tribes and ride to the end of the world on horseback, the Dothraki would stand a pretty good chance.

The Mongols had a few things, which the Dothraki also have, that made them able to take over the entire world:

- they believed their leader was a somewhat divine fellow (Mongol Genghis = Dothraki Stallion). If there were to be a Stallion, he would not only have military authority, but also religious, providing the loyalty and discipline of his followers.

- they had a shitload of horses: Mongols usually had 2 to 4 horses which would allow them to travel very far very fast and still have fresh mounts for battle

- they could shoot on horseback.

Mongol armies essentially only had two kinds of soldiers: archers on horseback and lancers. The great disadvantage of archers was always that units were easily destroyed by close combat, but putting them on a horse made it easy for them to simply retreat and continue firing.

I think that the Stallion could provide the few changes that would need to be made to transform the stupid Dothraki into dangerous Mongols. The Stallion would need only one small khalasar. If he can tell his warriors to use less arakhs, and more lances and archers, he will be defeating other Khals in no time. The dothraki do not have a very strong military culture, so the Stallion should not have too much trouble slightly reforming Dothraki warfare. If he can simply bring basic things like flanking and lancing into his army and if he chooses his officers wisely, he will unite the Dothraki.

When this is done the invasion of westeros should not prove to be too hard. All major fleets are on the western or southern shores and as they won't need a supply line, they won't need a navy. Lending ships from a willing Free City should not prove to be so tough and a landing on westeros is all that is needed. The middle kingdoms are probably the best choices to start with as these are the most fertile and thus the easiest to raid. If the Dothraki succeeded in reforming their warfare, a typical western medieval army as a Tyrell-Lannister force should be easy to defeat in the mongol-style. If it wouldn't be winter the north might be an effective target as well and even in winter it still would be possible if the Dothraki would have gained more discipline by then. The Vale may be tougher to conquer, as the Dothraki have little experience in rougher terrain, the Arryn army still is at its full force and the supplies are still pretty good there, although it still might be unlikely but possible, if the dothraki can exploit hostilities between Petyr and the mountain houses. The iron islands will be a problem as well, as you simply would need a navy and experienced sailors. The only province that will be truly impossible to take for the Dothraki would be Dorne. It is too arid to support an army without supply train, the Dornish are great with spears and pikes, which is troublesome for a horse-army, Dorne is mountainous in many regions, Dorne is undivided and Dorne has history of expert guerrilla warfare.

So this is why I think Dothraki can conquer most of Westeros, if the Stallion will rise. I think Dany is the Stallion, which might help even more on some points, but that's another discussion.

If you disagree with me on certain points feel free to discuss them here and I will answer what I can.

Thanks for reading

[Bright Blue Eyes]

No.

If you read the old threads, you are fully aware why: Dothraki are not Mongols.

Furthermore, naval invasions across the Narrow Sea are basically impossible, especially for the Dothraki.

[Wmarshal]

The Mongols had a few things, which the Dothraki also have, that made them able to take over the entire world:

- they believed their leader was a somewhat divine fellow (Mongol Genghis = Dothraki Stallion). If there were to be a Stallion, he would not only have military authority, but also religious, providing the loyalty and discipline of his followers.

Rhaego was declared such, yet no one denied the second he was born his brain would be smashed.

- they had a shitload of horses: Mongols usually had 2 to 4 horses which would allow them to travel very far very fast and still have fresh mounts for battle

as well the cunning to make this speed work for them.

- they could shoot on horseback.

True

Mongol armies essentially only had two kinds of soldiers: archers on horseback and lancers. The great disadvantage of archers was always that units were easily destroyed by close combat, but putting them on a horse made it easy for them to simply retreat and continue firing.

I think that the Stallion could provide the few changes that would need to be made to transform the stupid Dothraki into dangerous Mongols. The Stallion would need only one small khalasar. If he can tell his warriors to use less arakhs, and more lances and archers, he will be defeating other Khals in no time. The dothraki do not have a very strong military culture, so the Stallion should not have too much trouble slightly reforming Dothraki warfare. If he can simply bring basic things like flanking and lancing into his army and if he chooses his officers wisely, he will unite the Dothraki.

Dothraki have no lances. And their lies the issue they wear no armor, they would e torn apart by large hordes.

When this is done the invasion of westeros should not prove to be too hard. All major fleets are on the western or southern shores and as they won't need a supply line, they won't need a navy. Lending ships from a willing Free City should not prove to be so tough and a landing on westeros is all that is needed. The middle kingdoms are probably the best choices to start with as these are the most fertile and thus the easiest to raid. If the Dothraki succeeded in reforming their warfare, a typical western medieval army as a Tyrell-Lannister force should be easy to defeat in the mongol-style. If it wouldn't be winter the north might be an effective target as well and even in winter it still would be possible if the Dothraki would have gained more discipline by then. The Vale may be tougher to conquer, as the Dothraki have little experience in rougher terrain, the Arryn army still is at its full force and the supplies are still pretty good there, although it still might be unlikely but possible, if the dothraki can exploit hostilities between Petyr and the mountain houses. The iron islands will be a problem as well, as you simply would need a navy and experienced sailors. The only province that will be truly impossible to take for the Dothraki would be Dorne. It is too arid to support an army without supply train, the Dornish are great with spears and pikes, which is troublesome for a horse-army, Dorne is mountainous in many regions, Dorne is undivided and Dorne has history of expert guerrilla warfare.

So this is why I think Dothraki can conquer most of Westeros, if the Stallion will rise. I think Dany is the Stallion, which might help even more on some points, but that's another discussion.

If you disagree with me on certain points feel free to discuss them here and I will answer what I can.

Thanks for reading

The Redwynes, the largest sea power is on the East coast, and any word of a horde of dothraki massing to invade would reach every major power in no time. They would need supplies, no westerosi lord is going to watch as a horde eats at their land. Also the lending of fleets, the amount and cost to give them those ships would be so much they may as well hire sellswords to wipe them out. The tyrells and lannisters are very well armed and lead by competent commanders. Even in summer, the North is a endless forest, Not to mention Moat Calin. No lord is going to bow to invaders of the worst kind. In order to reform the dothraki the way you say would require generations of blood and gore in Essos alone. They are racist who believe their armor less charge move is the best way in the world. Cleaning that off isn't as simple as, put on armor and use a lance. This guys never have used lances or armor, who is going to train them?

[TallTyrion]

Lots of discussion on this already. Essentially Dothraki don't equal Mongols and unarmored cavalry with inferior tactics and weapons lose to a Westerosi army nine times out of ten.

[Minstral]

The Magyars were at one point a dominant power in Europe, but this was eventually ended by the German kingdoms/states under the umbrella of the Holy Roman Empire. The Dothraki are probably closer to this example, but would still end up as the inferior if a thorough comparison was attempted.

[Creticus]

The Dothraki are a bit . . . lacking when compared to historical steppe nomads.

Speaking of which, the Mongols fought on much the same model as their counterparts. What set them apart was their excellent organization, which is not something that can be said of the Dothraki.

[Dolorous22]

They'd still need a navy and siege weapons.

Borrowing ships does not make a Navy. You need knowledge of the sea in order to transport thousands of men, horses and supplies.

The Dothraki came unstuck against the unsullied, a disciplined and well regimented group.

In conclusion, I think you've simplified some really key issues here.

If Dany is leading them with dragons then that would be that. Without them I think they'd wither eventually.

[Skoboe]

Forget borrowing ships....it's called the Narrow Sea because it's, well, narrow. And with a serious dose of winter coming there could well be pack-ice forming south of the Fingers.

If they want to get across they just need to ride across the ice.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Forget borrowing ships....it's called the Narrow Sea because it's, well, narrow. And with a serious dose of winter coming there could well be pack-ice forming south of the Fingers.

If they want to get across they just need to ride across the ice.

Helcaraxe-like? It's about 500 miles wide, that would be about a month even on dry land.

No way in hell.

[Singer's stew]

Forget borrowing ships....it's called the Narrow Sea because it's, well, narrow. And with a serious dose of winter coming there could well be pack-ice forming south of the Fingers.

If they want to get across they just need to ride across the ice.

Good luck with that. Dothraki never even saw winter, their "clothes" are painted leather vests and horses dont eat snow or ice.

[Gwynbleidd]

Funny, i got into a huge heated debate in youtube specifically in the Qotho vs Jorah video where i said that the Dothraki won't stand a chance against westerosi army unless they probably use some guerilla tactics, which in the end, still won't be able to win the war. No matter how many times i repeat myself to those people like a broken inc, they keep bringing up "The Dothraki are the mongols! They are way superiorz to the knights!" "The Dothraki will win because of how good they are to horseback archery!"(As if this is enough to win all the battles) so i just let them off since it's a lost cause to continue arguing to people who don't even bothered reading your posts no matter how concise it is.

Short answer for this thread, no.

-No Armor

-No Strategy(They don't even use Hit and Run tactics like the Mongols)

-No Siege Weapons

-Clueless about Westeros' terrain and climate

-40,000 naked men are not enough unless some Targaryen Loyalist decided to join them like what Robert feared.

[Skoboe]

Helcaraxe-like? It's about 500 miles wide, that would be about a month even on dry land.

No way in hell.

There are places where it's only about 200...still a long way but doable. The Mongols could travel 50 miles a day...and if GRRM can have a 20 cubic kilometre wall of ice built in a few years then he could probably get a horde of horselords across a little bit of ice.

Good luck with that. Dothraki never even saw winter, their "clothes" are painted leather vests and horses dont eat snow or ice.

Somehow I think there's more chance of them donning some warm clothes and carting supplies than there is of getting several thousand Dothraki and their horses onto ships.

[DamoDega]

If mongols tried to conquer Europe they will have likely failed

Westeros look more or less equal to Europe (west/central/north), and Dothraki don't seem to be good as Mongols

[Singer's stew]

Ye, one percent against. zero

[Skoboe]

Funny, i got into a huge heated debate in youtube specifically in the Qotho vs Jorah video where i said that the Dothraki won't stand a chance against westerosi army unless they probably use some guerilla tactics, which in the end, still won't be able to win the war. No matter how many times i repeat myself to those people like a broken inc, they keep bringing up "The Dothraki are the mongols! They are way superiorz to the knights!" "The Dothraki will win because of how good they are to horseback archery!"(As if this is enough to win all the battles) so i just let them off since it's a lost cause to continue arguing to people who don't even bothered reading your posts no matter how concise it is.

Short answer for this thread, no.

-No Armor

-No Strategy(They don't even use Hit and Run tactics like the Mongols)

-No Siege Weapons

-Clueless about Westeros' terrain and climate

-40,000 naked men are not enough unless some Targaryen Loyalist decided to join them like what Robert feared.

In a straight up 'Dothraki go to this corner, Westerosi Army in this corner, and on 1..2....3...' type of fight, yes, the Dothraki would be decimated.

But it won't be that way, will it.

If they do make it to Westeros it will be with Dany (why else would they bother), and that means dragons. They'll also be setting foot (or hoof) into a land that's already been ravaged by war. Look at the damage Gregor Clegane and his band of what, 20? men did to such a large area.

Not only that, but Dany will be setting foot in Westeros in a time of unrest - the Usurper is dead, 5 kings declared and civil war breaks out. 2 kings are murdered, then one born of incest with no legal claim is murdered. The two remaining kings are a boy with dubious parentage and a stodgy old man that no one likes. Thousands are dead, crops have been destroyed and winter is coming...it's times like this people look for new leaders.

Dany might land in Westeros with 20,000 Dothraki behind her, but she may reach Kings Landing with 20,000 Dothraki plus another 30,000 Westerosi who have flocked to her banner - all without drawing a sword.

[joluoto2]

The thing with the Dothraki is that they wage war to raid, not to conquer. When they have raised enought castles and towns (if they are able to, considering they really don't do sieges) they'd go home, and maybe take the Iron Throne with them to Vaes Dothrak.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

There are places where it's only about 200...still a long way but doable. The Mongols could travel 50 miles a day...and if GRRM can have a 20 cubic kilometre wall of ice built in a few years then he could probably get a horde of horselords across a little bit of ice.

On ice?

In a straight up 'Dothraki go to this corner, Westerosi Army in this corner, and on 1..2....3...' type of fight, yes, the Dothraki would be decimated.

But it won't be that way, will it.

If they do make it to Westeros it will be with Dany (why else would they bother), and that means dragons. They'll also be setting foot (or hoof) into a land that's already been ravaged by war. Look at the damage Gregor Clegane and his band of what, 20? men did to such a large area.

Not only that, but Dany will be setting foot in Westeros in a time of unrest - the Usurper is dead, 5 kings declared and civil war breaks out. 2 kings are murdered, then one born of incest with no legal claim is murdered. The two remaining kings are a boy with dubious parentage and a stodgy old man that no one likes. Thousands are dead, crops have been destroyed and winter is coming...it's times like this people look for new leaders.

Dany might land in Westeros with 20,000 Dothraki behind her, but she may reach Kings Landing with 20,000 Dothraki plus another 30,000 Westerosi who have flocked to her banner - all without drawing a sword.

So, you mean a Targaryen loyalist army spearheaded by dragons can have Dothraki trailing them and still conquer Westeros. Why are we talking about the Dothraki then? They're a mostly useless addition!

By the way, Gregor Clegane had 300 men. Full 900 including Lorch and Hoat.

[Light a wight tonight]

Dothraki is a High Valyrian word meaning "overrated". The only folks we've seen them defeat, other than other Dothraki, is a bunch of Lamb Men. The other Essosi pay them off because it's easier than eradicating them and the Dothraki are useful as slave takers, supplying that particular economic need.

On top of that, transporting a large number of Dothraki across the Narrow Sea is just too much of a logistical nightmare, especially with Winter coming and the storms kicking up. Food and water for 3 or 4 horses for each rider plus those horses will require more ships than whichever leader they might be following will be able to collect.

[Lion Of The Night]

Look this topic has been discussed many times, but if you want to beat a dead horse (and there would be many if the dothraki tried to take westeros) one more time....

Forget the logistics of getting them to westeros, forget the lack of siege weapons to take fortifications.... The only way the dothraki will beat all of westeros is if they use the Zapp Brannigan doctrine... Send wave after wave of your men to be killed by the others until they are so tired they cant kill any more...

[LionOfCasterlyRock]

Dorthraki are basically a Paper Tiger.