Photos of Dany and Tyrion together

[oierem]

Do you honestly believe that just from watching the show anyone can piece together R+L=J? I know people have pieced together that Jon may not be Ned's son; but most people don't even remember who Lyanna is.

.

ON the contrary, I think the reveal will work better on TV.

The book gives away too many clues: every fan of ASOS know about R+L=J. A lot of them will be very dissapointed if the answer is indeed that and not something more shocking because we've known the answer for decades!!

On the TV series the mystery about Jon's origin has been set up. Rhaegar and Lyanna's story has been told several times, with little detail, but we learn something new every time they talk about it. That's how you reveal a big surprise. The ingredients are there, but it cannot be obvious. You shouldn't be able to guess, but when the revelation happens, it will make sense!

[Annara Snow]

Arya's only contribution to the overarching plot in the books was to make it a little easier for Bolton to take over Harrenhal. If she had died in book 1, Jaqen, Gendry, and Hotpie would probably be dead, the Hound would probably be in a different place, and almost nothing else would be different. Arya's story is engaging despite, rather than because of, its impact on the rest of the story.

And your point is...?

Surely the fact that the point of Arya's storyline so far has been 1) her character arc, and 2) the portrayal of the horrors of war and the impact of it on smallfolk, rather than some plot purpose, should mean that those two things should be portrayed in the show, rather than watered down and largely ignored in favor of "cool" conversations with Tywin Lannister, which were hugely OOC for Tywin, illogical and misrepresenting of the Westerosi class structure and behavior during the war, and added absolutely nothing to Arya's character development, turning a really compelling storyline which is a subversion of the "cool tomboy goes on adventures" trope, into 'fun scenes' that 100% played the trope straight and made it seem like Arya's time in Harrenhal was a walk in the park as soon as Tywin showed up, that little girls alone in warzone can hope for a nice grandpa mass murderer lord to make them their cupbearer for reason at all and then treat them like an equal and let them talk back to him, because he finds them so charming for not being one of that majority of 'stupid girls', and that they don't have to fear being taken a hostage if he finds out they're highborn.

Yeah, I'd be pretty upset if Tyrion's storyline gets the season 2 Arya treatment.

[The Reader Lisa]

Were these photos leaked or are they official HBO products? Or to be really cynical, were they

officially 'leaked"? Perhaps HBO wants us to know way in advance just how noncanonical Season

5 is going to be and wants the uproar done and dusted long before it airs. Photos speaking louder

than words...so to speak.

[midi]

Were these photos leaked or are they official HBO products? Or to be really cynical, were they

officially 'leaked"? Perhaps HBO wants us to know way in advance just how noncanonical Season

5 is going to be and wants the uproar done and dusted long before it airs. Photos speaking louder

than words...so to speak.

Really... Really? HBO conspiracy is where it's at here now? -.- I bet they we're responsible for 9/11 too!! You seriously think the GoT team at HBO has time to waste on something like that in the mid of the season production? I can tell you with 100000000% certainty that they don't.

This "storm in a teacup" about the show changing stuff has been going on at full steam pretty much since the House of The Undying (from season 2) which was totally different on the show... (book-) Fandom will always fight over every little change since they were first introduced to the books and many consider them "the bible" that the show should abide by, when even GRRM has said that the show is and HAS TO BE different than the books. The medium is different, they can't and won't introduce characters or filler element/plotlines (and R'hllor knows the books are full of those) that will make it hard for the people who only watch the show to follow the main plot.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

The anti-R+L=J crowd can certainly use the show as *some* kind of basis to "show" that R+L=/=J. So far all the show has done in giving any kind of clue to the audience [and only in showing that Jon isn't Ned's son] is the line in Season One: "you may not have my name, but you have my blood." And that's it!

If R+L=J, then it's going to be a soap opera-esque reveal on the show because NOTHING would make ANYONE even remotely crackpot such a theory. My Unsullied friend doesn't even know who Rhaegar is. She doesn't mind spoilers so when I told her she said "but I thought Dany had one brother, the one with the molten crown." I don't hate D&D as some people do, but their decisions to undermine several key aspects of the story always baffle me. I used to be the one telling people to give them a chance...I'm slowly giving up.

I'm kinda glad my Unsullied aren't the only ones who have no idea who Rhaegar is, which, excuse me D&D enthusiasts, is UNFORGIVABLE. Rhaegar is pretty much the most important character of the books who isn't alive, as his actions set up the events of the current plot.

And that's one of the reasons, as you say, that one feels to give up. I understand the need to cut plots that would affect the budget. But to introduce Rhaegar Targaryen doesn't cost any money. It only took one line for Oberyn to say that Rhaegar left Elia for another woman. People understood the story of Castamere, and they know the reasons of Oberyn wanting revenge. They have no real reason for not have done it already.

[Visenya Stark]

GRRM has said that the show is and HAS TO BE different than the books.

When did he say this? Is it confirmed then that the show will have a different ending than the books? Because I was under the impression that since GRRM told D&D the ending to his story, they would follow it.

[lenniegroove]

These two statements are not mutually exclusive.

The ending and key plot lines can be broadly similar even as specific details are quite different.

[lenniegroove]

Anyway, since the Tyrion and Dany storylines were bloated in ADWD, this could theoretically be a big improvement. We'll see how it turns out in practice 6-7 months from now.

[sj4iy]

Anyway, since the Tyrion and Dany storylines were bloated in ADWD, this could theoretically be a big improvement. We'll see how it turns out in practice 6-7 months from now.

I read a thread on another site, and most of the posters seem thrilled with the idea and agreed that 4 & 5 can be improved with a lot of trimming. I think it's good to get out of the echo chamber sometimes.

[I Hate Daenerys]

4, 1, 3, 2 for me.

4

1

2

3

[Guard of the Rainking]

4

1

2

3

Talisa? Tully butchery? Stannis? Theon torturing? Tyrion's screentime? What is the reason? I need to know!

[Janicia]

Also, if that's the case, then the show runners greatly underestimate the intelligence of viewers. At this point, the Unsullied's ignorance of R+L=J can be placed solely at the feet of the show runners. However, if the clues are given and viewers just forget, then we can go ahead and question the "remembering capacity" and in a roundabout way, the intelligence and attention span of the viewers. At this point, the show runners haven't even tried to give the viewers the chance, the benefit of the doubt. And maybe that's the problem, if we operate under the assumption of limited understanding, sheer ignorance and stupidity...what's the point? We should all be watching the Real Housewives of Something or Somewhere.

There is always a backstory. I’m sure Barristan’s father did fascinating things in his life that impacted the life decisions that Barristan made. Those things haven’t been part of the books, but in a parallel universe maybe they would be and fans would be dedicated to seeing Barristan’s father’s backstory in the adaptation. But we don’t know it in this universe and we don’t clamor for it.

I think the show just cares more about Arya, Tyrion, Stannis, and yes, Pod, than it does about Lyanna, Rhaegar and Tysha. Which makes sense to me since the former are flesh and blood characters and the latter are not. At some level, it would be a strange use of resources for the show to put a lot of energy into character development of people that died before the show’s start.

GRRM does cool things with the backstory, certainly. But isn’t it kind of better to watch the alive characters in a TV show doing things instead of watch them tell stories about their awesome dead relatives? And actually flashing back to the “past” would be far too chaotic and confusing in a show with so very many characters and locations already.

Anyway, I think the show only cares about R+L=J as it impacts Jon, Melissandre, and other show characters.

[Janicia]

Surely the fact that the point of Arya's storyline so far has been 1) her character arc, and 2) the portrayal of the horrors of war and the impact of it on smallfolk

... added absolutely nothing to Arya's character development

The show has conveyed the devastation of the Riverlands, the struggles of decent smallfolk, and the evil of rampaging soldiers.

At the start of season 2, Arya opened up to Gendry with the truth instead of coming up with a lie. She opened up to Tywin about her fascination with dragons. Arya also initially stumbled over her three wishes with Jaqen.

By the end of the season, Arya tried to have Tywin assassinated, leveraged Jaqen to her advantage, and was acting as a harder, more purposeful, more careful, and more deceitful person. Her instincts had changed - she was very wary and closed off with the BWB from the start. The brushes with Tywin and Jaqen did change Arya. She just changed differently, and at different stages, from the books.

[The Reader Lisa]

Really... Really? HBO conspiracy is where it's at here now? -.- I bet they we're responsible for 9/11 too!! You seriously think the GoT team at HBO has time to waste on something like that in the mid of the season production? I can tell you with 100000000% certainty that they don't.

This "storm in a teacup" about the show changing stuff has been going on at full steam pretty much since the House of The Undying (from season 2) which was totally different on the show... (book-) Fandom will always fight over every little change since they were first introduced to the books and many consider them "the bible" that the show should abide by, when even GRRM has said that the show is and HAS TO BE different than the books. The medium is different, they can't and won't introduce characters or filler element/plotlines (and R'hllor knows the books are full of those) that will make it hard for the people who only watch the show to follow the main plot.

That doesn't answer my question as to where the photos come from, does it? Leaking information is a pretty standard PR practice

nowadays for corporations, politicians, you name it. It gives you the jump on a situation that will likely come to light at some point. Isn't

this a rather strong reaction to a genuine question? And please don't drag that event into something this trivial. I find it quite offensive.

Use JFK or Pearl Harbor, something with a lot more distance, if you want to mock someone as a conspiracy theorist.

[Le Cygne]

And when they finally reveal it, it will seem like something out of soap opera..."by the way, that sister Ned had that we vaguely never mentioned to you, and that silver-haired harpist, no, not the one with the molten crown, yes, the one with the rubies on his chest, yeah, those dudes are Jon's folks. No, no one swapped anyone at the hospital...it's really a long and convincing story that has many clues and motivations backing it but we just didn't see the point in investing any time in it because it would ruin the big reveal. We swear we didn't lift this from a soap opera."

Big reveals are nice...when done right. Otherwise they are just cheap and so old, so cheap and old.

Yep, there are several other moments I have already guessed from all the clues (they have Easter Eggs/subtext all over the place on this show, Alex Graves wasn't jiving), they are going for the big reveal, and it's likely going to seem like soap opera.

But any way you look at it, it's not going to be as enjoyable to watch as it would have been, had they built up to it properly. The audience likes to go along for the ride. These characters live in the present for the most part, they rarely stop to reflect.

Out of sight, out of mind... until the big moment.

[Farwynds Oceanseer]

Perhaps someone demanded Tyrion be tried as a spy or a kinslayer, Tyrion demanded a trial by combat, and Jorah has become Tyrion's champion now that they've spent episodes 3-8 becoming friends in their "bro-mantic comedy?"

Opinion about the trustworthiness of Tyrion might be divided in Dany's court, and Dany could trust Jorah's judgment on Tyrion's loyalty but be unable to take her Old Bear back into her inner circle since the court knows he confessed to spying. Perhaps Jorah fights first in his own trial and then for Tyrion, because this is the only way Dany can get the various factions of her court to accept the new bro-mantic couple. That is about the only way I can think of that Dany would watch Jorah in the fighting pits with Tyrion in the royal booth.

[Tolsimir]

I read a thread on another site, and most of the posters seem thrilled with the idea and agreed that 4 & 5 can be improved with a lot of trimming. I think it's good to get out of the echo chamber sometimes.

Are you seriously implying that this site is an echo chamber?

OT: With every new change we get it's clear D&D will come up with a lot of original content. Judging by how this went in the past, I predict that this will easily be the worst season. And I actually like that Tyrion will already join Dany, but it will probably be handled very poorly.

I also don't get this obsession people have with saying that things that move the plot forward are inherently better tv than things like character development. I've read people saying that they are glad Jaime ''will be doing something'' instead of leading a no risk campaign in the Riverlands. Why would pointless fights with the sand snakes be better then his character development? Why would showing us that he means to never hurt another Tully be bad TV? To show us that he has become a better person and to show us how he burns Cersei's letter? Personally those were some of my favourite parts in the books, and unlike Dany's Mereneese rule I will be sad to not see it on tv.

[Le Cygne]

To wander back to the bearpit, reflecting on what the past meant, and smack Red Ronnet for dissing Brienne, that was character development, too. It also set up the rest of his story with Brienne.

Because the horror! A character stopping to reflect on what his story meant! Why, he could gain dimension, and the audience might be drawn to him for reasons that have to do with his own journey.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

And your point is...?

Surely the fact that the point of Arya's storyline so far has been 1) her character arc, and 2) the portrayal of the horrors of war and the impact of it on smallfolk, rather than some plot purpose, should mean that those two things should be portrayed in the show, rather than watered down and largely ignored in favor of "cool" conversations with Tywin Lannister, which were hugely OOC for Tywin, illogical and misrepresenting of the Westerosi class structure and behavior during the war, and added absolutely nothing to Arya's character development, turning a really compelling storyline which is a subversion of the "cool tomboy goes on adventures" trope, into 'fun scenes' that 100% played the trope straight and made it seem like Arya's time in Harrenhal was a walk in the park as soon as Tywin showed up, that little girls alone in warzone can hope for a nice grandpa mass murderer lord to make them their cupbearer for reason at all and then treat them like an equal and let them talk back to him, because he finds them so charming for not being one of that majority of 'stupid girls', and that they don't have to fear being taken a hostage if he finds out they're highborn.

Yeah, I'd be pretty upset if Tyrion's storyline gets the season 2 Arya treatment.

As much as I did enjoy Tywin and Arya, I do have to admit you have a point about it being OOC and against the class structure. Not to mention, I really did want to see some Roose and Nan on my screen. Mostly, your point about Tywin playing nice with Arya, and having deep convos to boot, LOL, remind me of the contrast in the books of Arya noting that Roose looked at her like a piece of furniture that spoke............when she talked out of turn. Eh, I guess that in itself, Arya's feelings about Roose, should have been a clue on my first read, hahaha, about a lot of things.

[Kyoshi]

Okay, okay, I concede, not because I agree, but because I think we all expect different things from the show. I'll reiterate my opinion that TV shows should never undermine the viewers' intelligence. Otherwise they are just creating week-by-week money machines...because they want to keep people "hooked" [because live, flesh and blood characters are visually better than memories of characters we don't know, even if the arcs and developments of the memories are far superior to the flesh and blood characters], or because big reveals sell in a big way in the entertainment industry...who the hell knows, anyway.

I'm opposed to this line of thinking:

ON the contrary, I think the reveal will work better on TV.

The book gives away too many clues: every fan of ASOS know about R+L=J. A lot of them will be very dissapointed if the answer is indeed that and not something more shocking because we've known the answer for decades!!

On the TV series the mystery about Jon's origin has been set up. Rhaegar and Lyanna's story has been told several times, with little detail, but we learn something new every time they talk about it. That's how you reveal a big surprise. The ingredients are there, but it cannot be obvious. You shouldn't be able to guess, but when the revelation happens, it will make sense!

The book does not give away too many clues. The author simply writes the tale such that when the mystery is revealed, there is no lie about it, no "ooohh, maybe I should shock them with this!" That is incredibly poor writing. As readers, we can go back and find the trail of crumbs...there is nothing cheap about such a mystery. Also, RLJ is big in the forums and not so big outside. I'll confess, I didn't even remotely pick up on it on my first read, it was only when I read the theories online that it all seemed to slap me in the face. Maybe that's a sign of my limited reading skills, but I wouldn't think it out of the ordinary to discover that a majority of readers have not solved this mystery, particularly those who don't belong to any online communities...even with all the clues.

In any case...I have the strong feeling that it's going to be so soap opera-esque, it will be embarrassing to watch. Then again, I am a drama king. Big reveals sell, but shock is cheap. And doing things for the sake of shocking people is just dumb.