No Sex Please, We're Irish

[DraculaAD1972]

From the 'Irish Logic' section of an irish jokes website:

A kid comes home from school with a writing assignment. He asks his father for help. "Dad, can you tell me the difference between potential and reality?"

His father looks up, thoughtfully, and then says, "I'll demonstrate. Go ask your mother if she would sleep with Robert Redford for a million pounds. Then go ask your sister if she would sleep with Brad Pitt for a million pounds. Then come back and tell me what you've learned."

The kid is puzzled, but decides to ask his mother. "Mum, if someone gave you a million pounds, would you sleep with Robert Redford?"

"Don't tell your father, but yes, I would," she replies.

He then goes to his sister's room. "Sis, if someone gave you a million pounds, would you sleep with Brad Pitt?"

She replies, "Omigod! Definitely!"

The kid goes back to his father. "Dad, I think I've figured it out. Potentially, we are sitting on two million quid, but in reality, we are living with two sluts."

From the Guardian:

Paying for sex is to be banned in Northern Ireland after members at the Stormont assembly members backed the move in a landmark late-night vote.

The proposal to outlaw purchasing sex is among a number of clauses contained in a bill aimed at amending Northern Ireland’s laws on trafficking and prostitution.

Paid-for consensual sex is currently legal in Northern Ireland though activities such as kerb crawling, brothel keeping and pimping are against the law. The proposed ban is similar to the model operating in Sweden.

The human trafficking and exploitation bill was tabled before the assembly by Democratic Unionist peer Lord Morrow.

The fate of the bill’s contentious clause six, proposing the ban on purchasing sex, was uncertain at the outset of the debate, with Sinn Fein’s decision to back the prohibition along with the DUP proving crucial.

The clause was passed during the bill’s consideration stage by 81 votes to 10 shortly after 11.30pm.

Stormont’s justice minister, David Ford, leader of the cross-community Alliance party, opposed the clause.

While the legislation still has to pass further assembly stages, the significant majority support within the devolved administration means it is essentially now destined to become law.

Research published by Queen’s University in Belfast says about 17,500 men pay for sex in Northern Ireland every year.

Sex workers opposing the clause and a trafficking victim in support of the ban were among those at Parliament Buildings in Belfast to watch the marathon debate.

[Lord Toblerone]

That Joke is appalling.

As for the "end demand" approach to prostitution (aka sex work):

Women don't sell sex because men want to buy sex. This should be obvious. Women sell sex because they need to make money. There could be many reasons why they choose this particular way: They have no other options, of the few options they have, they consider sex work the best one, they are at a point in their lives where this suits them better than other work, or even that they genuinely enjoy this work and wouldn't do anything else.

The problem is viewing prostitution as a problem, as a social ill. It is not. It may be symptomatic of real social ills, - poverty, unemployment, lack of access to education and training - but thinking of sex work as problematic by its very nature leads to thinking of it as THE problem to be solved - all the actual problems a sex worker might have become simply because she's in sex work.

If you want reduce numbers in sex work, address the reasons people do it. Don't try to take away their income and expect that to do anything for them. Treat them like grown ups, in charge of their own lives. Ask them what their needs are. If they want to get out, help them find a way. If they want to keep doing it, give them the supports they need.

Don't impose moralistic laws on people.

Sex trafficking and exploitation are already illegal, and the extent to which they really happen is highly disputed. This approach is not going to make a big difference to people who really are being exploited.

[ants]

Totally agreed Lord Toblerone. Making prostitution legal and regulating it should be the best way of identifying those being trafficked/exploited from those who are legit, as it doesn't force the legit ones to act like criminals.

And that joke is pretty disgusting. Switch the genders and I doubt the men would be called sluts.

[Athias]

That Joke is appalling.

As for the "end demand" approach to prostitution (aka sex work):

Women don't sell sex because men want to buy sex. This should be obvious. Women sell sex because they need to make money.

I would assume that there are women who do in fact sell sex because there are men who want to buy sex. You're right in that their reasons for entering the industry can vary, but as far as the logistics are concerned, they sell sex because there's a demand for it--otherwise they wouldn't sell. The converse of this argument is true as well--there are men who purchase sex due to the women supplying it. The need to make money is a rather moot point and doesn't really demonstrate causation. One could say that we all "need" to make, yet we are not all prostitutes.

Prostitution is the oldest business and probably the earliest demonstration of an economic system.

[ants]

I would assume that there are women who do in fact sell sex because there are men who want to buy sex. You're right in that their reasons for entering the industry can vary, but as far as the logistics are concerned, they sell sex because there's a demand for it--otherwise they wouldn't sell. The converse of this argument is true as well--there are men who purchase sex due to the women supplying it. The need to make money is a rather moot point and doesn't really demonstrate causation. One could say that we all "need" to make, yet we are not all prostitutes.

Prostitution is the oldest business and probably the earliest demonstration of an economic system.

You think the need to make money is a moot point in people choosing to become a prostitute? Really? Because I thought they woke up one day and said - "this is prostitution? Damn it, I thought this was the acting industry. Better go switch jobs". Or maybe they thought the money was just a tip for something they were happy to do for free?

Of course those not coerced are doing it for the money. There might be a small percentage doing it as a thrill, but that's going to be a pretty low share.

[DraculaAD1972]

And that joke is pretty disgusting. Switch the genders and I doubt the men would be called sluts.

As tasteless as the joke was, I fear its logic is superior to that of the Irish lawmakers. In defence of the joke I must say the term 'slut' can be used to describe men as well as women. Of course the word isn't unproblematic - but to describe a bloke as a slut is perfectly normal.

[Edda van Heefmstra Ruston]

LT has already covered most of what I was going to say, but since you've made this conflation multiple times: You are aware that Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland are two separate legal entities, right? One is part of the UK, and the other is not. It's true that both are on the island of Ireland, but the adjective "Irish" usually tends to refer to the Republic, not the North.

Also, where do you live? I've never heard of men being called 'sluts' without modification (e.g. 'man-sluts'.) Besides, in a thread about sex work & prostitution, it's particularly insensitive regardless.

There's plenty to discuss about sex work, prostitution, trafficking, and all of the laws surrounding them. We've done it here before, though usually in the feminism threads, and there's certainly lots of ground to go over. We ought to be able to do it without stereotypical jokes and slurs, though.

[DraculaAD1972]

LT has already covered most of what I was going to say, but since you've made this conflation multiple times: You are aware that Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland are two separate legal entities, right? One is part of the UK, and the other is not. It's true that both are on the island of Ireland, but the adjective "Irish" usually tends to refer to the Republic, not the North.

Also, where do you live? I've never heard of men being called 'sluts' without modification (e.g. 'man-sluts'.) Besides, in a thread about sex work & prostitution, it's particularly insensitive regardless.

There's plenty to discuss about sex work, prostitution, trafficking, and all of the laws surrounding them. We've done it here before, though usually in the feminism threads, and there's certainly lots of ground to go over. We ought to be able to do it without stereotypical jokes and slurs, though.

The article I quoted makes reference to Northern Ireland as opposed to the Republic, however I apologise for the conflation implied in my use of the word Irish. Accuracy was sacrificed on the altar of brevity.

I live in Manchester. Not sure what difference location makes however, but regarding use of the S-word, as I stated it isn't unproblematic. But Manchester is a very modern place, we have a Gay Village in our city centre and heterosexual men can be referred to as sluts, if they can earn the title. Such men are rare, they are like Michael Fassbender in the film Shame. However women sometimes say things like "all men are tarts", describing male sexuality in general. Surely this isn't so unusual?

[Edda van Heefmstra Ruston]

Not sure what difference location makes however, but regarding use of the S-word, as I stated it isn't unproblematic. ... Surely this isn't so unusual?

Location is only relevant because I was honestly curious. I really haven't lived anywhere that uses that word without assuming women as the base.

I stumbled across an interesting discussion in some comments on We Hunted the Mammoth today about the various models for legalisation / decriminalisation of sex work / prostitution, and I wish I could dig it up again to link it. Pointed out there, as well as pointed out in this BBC article, there is the very real belief* that the Swedish form of the law actually drives sex workers away from going to the police for help, and that it also doesn't really do anything to help victims of trafficking or coercion.

It's obviously a complicated issue, far more complicated than just "we only need to do X and it will all be peachy!"

*Or fact? I haven't seen any actual studies or figures, so I don't know for sure myself.

[DraculaAD1972]

Location is only relevant because I was honestly curious. I really haven't lived anywhere that uses that word without assuming women as the base.

I stumbled across an interesting discussion in some comments on We Hunted the Mammoth today about the various models for legalisation / decriminalisation of sex work / prostitution, and I wish I could dig it up again to link it. Pointed out there, as well as pointed out in this BBC article, there is the very real belief* that the Swedish form of the law actually drives sex workers away from going to the police for help, and that it also doesn't really do anything to help victims of trafficking or coercion.

It's obviously a complicated issue, far more complicated than just "we only need to do X and it will all be peachy!"

*Or fact? I haven't seen any actual studies or figures, so I don't know for sure myself.

I suppose the theory is that the Swedish model empowers women - by effectively decriminalising the transaction for women while criminalising it for men. So a woman could report an abusive client and add the paying-for-sex charge to any other charges, is the only benefit I can think of. But the message to women is clear- you have no right to choose, instead the chivalrous morality police will protect you from yourself and from the men who are willing to take advantage of your need for money.

The article you linked describes success in driving street workers off the streets, effectively cleaning up the neighborhoods. Presumably the local residents of such neighborhoods see that as a good thing.

[Edda van Heefmstra Ruston]

Oh, I get the rationale behind it. By decriminalising or legalising the selling of sex (or related activities), the providers are in the clear, while the procurers can still be punished. It seems that that's not really the way it's working out, though.

I still haven't been able to find the article again with the comments (it wasn't related to sex work, so it's not as obvious to dig up), but another point that was raised was this: if she (the wman writing the comment) were to go to the police about one client, then the police know for sure that she's an easy conduit to further arrests. She herself is doing nothing wrong, but her clients are, and all the police have to do is target her place of work to find them. This would almost assuredly drive her clients away and put her out of business.

Of course, if these laws really do help crack down on trafficking and forced prostitution, then a society may decide that the loss of willing sex work is a trade worth making. It all goes back to whether that's really how it ends up, though.

[DraculaAD1972]

Oh, I get the rationale behind it. By decriminalising or legalising the selling of sex (or related activities), the providers are in the clear, while the procurers can still be punished. It seems that that's not really the way it's working out, though.I still haven't been able to find the article again with the comments (it wasn't related to sex work, so it's not as obvious to dig up), but another point that was raised was this: if she (the wman writing the comment) were to go to the police about one client, then the police know for sure that she's an easy conduit to further arrests. She herself is doing nothing wrong, but her clients are, and all the police have to do is target her place of work to find them. This would almost assuredly drive her clients away and put her out of business.Of course, if these laws really do help crack down on trafficking and forced prostitution, then a society may decide that the loss of willing sex work is a trade worth making. It all goes back to whether that's really how it ends up, though.

Another issue is enforceability. The uk police have trouble keeping tabs on a few hundred suspected terrorists, how they could ever monitor thousands of men and women is a mystery. Presumably undercover policewomen could act as honey traps in the same way that the police do with men who target underage girls.

[ants]

....

Of course, if these laws really do help crack down on trafficking and forced prostitution, then a society may decide that the loss of willing sex work is a trade worth making. It all goes back to whether that's really how it ends up, though.

I still find it hard to believe that the best way to fight that isn't to make it easily clear who is doing it legally, so you can ignore one whole chunk of the picture and focus on the other. If girls need an (inexpensive) registration and some contact with a bureau a couple of times a year, and there are legal brothels, then police can focus on the bits which don't fall into this segment. And clients with any conscience can also make a clean choice.