Did the Frey deserve to be cooked into pies?

[Stannis's Lawyer]

Seriously, I hate the WH Freys as much as anyone, but Manderly should have stopped after hanging them.

Q. They were dead anyways!

A. So was Cat when she was stripped naked and thrown into the river.

Q. But it's badass!

A. Huh?

Q. But they were Freys!

A. So what?

[Booknerd2]

The really ironic thing is if they just buried Cat or actually carried out Tully style funeral and didn't throw her in the river to mock those customs she wouldn't be hanging them.

Exactly. Payback is a bitch. Oh, they have her dead…and a little bonus too. Not good for them though.

[Ramsay Gimp]

I don't think the RW alone was enough for the pies. It was that they, quite literally, added insult to injury in White Harbor.

[JoramunsKazoo]

Those pies didn't deserve to have Freys cooked into them.

:agree:

Everyone loves a pie. Life is short, and so many pies to be had. Hot, warm, cold, savory, and sweet. Alas, the pie is the victim here.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Agree that Martin writes for us, 21th century readers.

BUT he (and many writers) don't only write for us to be witness and judge the characters with our modern goggles: They want us to ask "what would I do instead?", and that question is ambiguous because it presents two possibilities:

1. what would I do if I face a similar situation than X in my world?

2. what would I do if I face a similar situation than X and I'm in Westeros?

Because our world and Westeros are completely opposite and are ruled by different sets of morals and values. In Westeros, you can't go all "let's respect everybody's rights!" because you would be seen as weak. And weak people don't survive, neither their families, hence, what happened to Robb Stark. Westeros is a world where there is a lot of chest beating to prove you're the strongest and most powerful gorilla. Even if you want to make a change, you need first to prove you're the biggest "dawg" out there or people won't take you seriously and kill you instead or look to get you destroyed. And, the funny thing is that in OUR WORLD, that happens. Look at any kind of political election and we can see a lot of candidates showing their plumage to others. They don't go and pillage towns, but they definitely try to let an impression there and many times it's not pretty, despite there is no beheadings involved.

I think what many people feels appalled about Westeros is the violence. That's something they say "I will definitely and absolutely won't do that". We all condemn Tywin for his actions, for instance, because even in their world, there are other options. There was no need of him to kill the Castamere children, for example. He's an asshole in his world and ours. Whatsoever, I find curious how many people say so casually that Robb -now we're talking about the RW- shouldn't have married Jeyne and marry her to someone else. How that translates into our world? I'm a married man who gets a girl pregnant and tells her 'sorry, darling. I'm married. Can you please marry my uncle instead?'. Just because there is no violence involved, it doesn't make it less shitty.

[Cat of the Rivers]

Seriously, I hate the WH Freys as much as anyone, but Manderly should have stopped after hanging them.

Q. They were dead anyways!

A. So was Cat when she was stripped naked and thrown into the river.

Q. But it's badass!

A. Huh?

Q. But they were Freys!

A. So what?

:agree:

My point exactly.

I don't think the RW alone was enough for the pies. It was that they, quite literally, added insult to injury in White Harbor.

Huh? How did they literally add insult to White Harbor?

Exactly. Payback is a bitch. Oh, they have her dead…and a little bonus too. Not good for them though.

I actually think that the payback will come in a Cersei's WOS manner. Some people will sympathize and some will find it disproportionate.

[RoamingRonin]

Seriously, I hate the WH Freys as much as anyone, but Manderly should have stopped after hanging them.

Q. They were dead anyways!

A. So was Cat when she was stripped naked and thrown into the river.

Q. But it's badass!

A. Huh?

Q. But they were Freys!

A. So what?

Exactly. Who cares?

[Civility Reigns]

:agree:

Everyone loves a pie. Life is short, and so many pies to be had. Hot, warm, cold, savory, and sweet. Alas, the pie is the victim here.

It is the life goal of all food to be delicious, pure, and enjoyed by everybody. But Manderly destroyed that goal before those pies were even baked. Did you see how reluctant everyone was to even taste them? Soul crushing defeat doesn't even begin to describe what they must have felt...

[Stannis's Lawyer]

They deserved death and I don't care what happened to their corpses after.

Exactly. Who cares?

I don't get it. Are you suggesting we shouldn't care about what happened to Catelyn's body?

[The Drunkard]

The worst part about this wasn't the pie-making, but Manderly feeding them to so many people at Winterfell.

Plus, I'm not typically into corpse desecration.

[Brightstar_]

Agree that Martin writes for us, 21th century readers.

BUT he (and many writers) don't only write for us to be witness and judge the characters with our modern goggles: They want us to ask "what would I do instead?", and that question is ambiguous because it presents two possibilities:

1. what would I do if I face a similar situation than X in my world?

2. what would I do if I face a similar situation than X and I'm in Westeros?

Because our world and Westeros are completely opposite and are ruled by different sets of morals and values. In Westeros, you can't go all "let's respect everybody's rights!" because you would be seen as weak. And weak people don't survive, neither their families, hence, what happened to Robb Stark. Westeros is a world where there is a lot of chest beating to prove you're the strongest and most powerful gorilla. Even if you want to make a change, you need first to prove you're the biggest "dawg" out there or people won't take you seriously and kill you instead or look to get you destroyed. And, the funny thing is that in OUR WORLD, that happens. Look at any kind of political election and we can see a lot of candidates showing their plumage to others. They don't go and pillage towns, but they definitely try to let an impression there and many times it's not pretty, despite there is no beheadings involved.

I think what many people feels appalled about Westeros is the violence. That's something they say "I will definitely and absolutely won't do that". We all condemn Tywin for his actions, for instance, because even in their world, there are other options. There was no need of him to kill the Castamere children, for example. He's an asshole in his world and ours. Whatsoever, I find curious how many people say so casually that Robb -now we're talking about the RW- shouldn't have married Jeyne and marry her to someone else. How that translates into our world? I'm a married man who gets a girl pregnant and tells her 'sorry, darling. I'm married. Can you please marry my uncle instead?'. Just because there is no violence involved, it doesn't make it less shitty.

I agree largely with what you've said.

comment on the bolded part however: Even though that's a good comparison of the situation, in our world doing the "right thing" (getting a divorce and marrying the girl) does not get you killed, in Westeros it does ( and did).

[RoamingRonin]

I don't get it. Are you suggesting we shouldn't care about what happened to Catelyn's body?

You know good and well I am not.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I agree largely with what you've said.

comment on the bolded part however: Even though that's a good comparison of the situation, in our world doing the "right thing" (getting a divorce and marrying the girl) does not get you killed, in Westeros it does ( and did).

Not killed, but depending on who is your wife or who you are, an scandal can ruin your career.

[Stannis's Lawyer]

You know good and well I am not.

Then what are you saying? Because I really don't understand.

[RoamingRonin]

Then what are you saying? Because I really don't understand.

Seven save me... What does my first post say? You even quoted it. The Freys died and were butchered for meat, who cares?

[Pib_Juju]

Manderly is a hero for what he did. It was deeply insulting, matched the crime (killing guests at a wedding feast is extremely taboo, like cannibalism), and even reflected his own persona. As revenge goes, it was artistry.

[Booknerd2]

Walder Frey is causing his House's downfall due to extreme tunnel vision…and ego, spite, and other things.

It is not just Robb he was pissed at. I feel it had alot to do with Hoster too and old slights as well.

He gets Edmure and Riverrun married with Frey. Always wanted it and he gets it. Robb is out, but if Arya surfaced he would have gotten that marriage with Stark and Winterfell too. Or something else maybe even. Possibly some extra family members married into Northern houses and off his hands, and other benefits, maybe even with Riverland houses because of his Edmure link.

Honestly, if nothing happened, meaning no RW, he could have milked things and bitched, and might have gotten another marriage or something else he wanted, and Robb and Cat, to smooth ruffled feathers, and to watch their backs always, might have considered it.

And when you see the shitstorm he caused because of RW.

Well, hindsight, again...

[kimim]

Manderly did not flay them or burn them. He killed them in a manner that is considered routine in Westeros, then ate them. Once a person is dead, what you do with their flesh is of no concern to them.

Edit: So not cruel, merely insulting to their family.

[Mrs_Darcy]

I definitely don't have any issues with the three Frey men being killed, not sure how I feel about the wifes and servants - whom I assume also got killed.

As for being cocked into a pie; they were already dead, don't see why it should bother them. Think it was more meant to be an insult/revenge on the Boltons and Freys at Winterfell who are them.. So a better question is maybe if the Bolton/Freys deserved to be fed human flesh...and that is a yes from me!

The wives and servants did not get killed IIRC.

[Cat of the Rivers]

I don't get it. Are you suggesting we shouldn't care about what happened to Catelyn's body?

He was justified in hanging the Freys but cooking them into pies and feeding them to his relatives was failing to be a decent human being. The Freys rightly deserve the hate they get for the RW and the aftermath and IMO Manderly deserves dislike for cannibalism.

Agree that Martin writes for us, 21th century readers.

BUT he (and many writers) don't only write for us to be witness and judge the characters with our modern goggles: They want us to ask "what would I do instead?", and that question is ambiguous because it presents two possibilities:

1. what would I do if I face a similar situation than X in my world?

2. what would I do if I face a similar situation than X and I'm in Westeros?

Because our world and Westeros are completely opposite and are ruled by different sets of morals and values. In Westeros, you can't go all "let's respect everybody's rights!" because you would be seen as weak. And weak people don't survive, neither their families, hence, what happened to Robb Stark. Westeros is a world where there is a lot of chest beating to prove you're the strongest and most powerful gorilla. Even if you want to make a change, you need first to prove you're the biggest "dawg" out there or people won't take you seriously and kill you instead or look to get you destroyed. And, the funny thing is that in OUR WORLD, that happens. Look at any kind of political election and we can see a lot of candidates showing their plumage to others. They don't go and pillage towns, but they definitely try to let an impression there and many times it's not pretty, despite there is no beheadings involved.

I think what many people feels appalled about Westeros is the violence. That's something they say "I will definitely and absolutely won't do that". We all condemn Tywin for his actions, for instance, because even in their world, there are other options. There was no need of him to kill the Castamere children, for example. He's an asshole in his world and ours. Whatsoever, I find curious how many people say so casually that Robb -now we're talking about the RW- shouldn't have married Jeyne and marry her to someone else. How that translates into our world? I'm a married man who gets a girl pregnant and tells her 'sorry, darling. I'm married. Can you please marry my uncle instead?'. Just because there is no violence involved, it doesn't make it less shitty.

I admit I'm confused on this argument. This post says that the authors want us to think about what would we do in this situation which means putting ourselves in Westeros world yet I feel as if this post is criticizing people for putting themselves in that situation and judges the situation with a modern viewpoint (Robb's situation with Jeyne) which the very thing this post told the reader to do at the very beginning of this post. Maybe I'm misunderstanding the argument though. Could you clarify please? Thank you.

The decent thing for Robb to do was to secure her future. Which meant marrying her to one of his bannermen or taking care of the child if she had conceived a baby. Marrying her was violating a marriage contract that was the meaning between life and death. It's different from Brandon sleeping with Barbrey Dustin. The thing he should have done was marry one of the Freys.

I don't feel appalled at the violence. I certainly don't revel in it but I am okay with Ned beheading the deserter. I'm willing to accept that as part of their times. But I am not willing to accept behavior such as Frey pies that violate human rights.

Manderly did not flay them or burn them. He killed them in a manner that is considered routine in Westeros, then ate them. Once a person is dead, what you do with their flesh is of no concern to them.

Edit: So not cruel, merely insulting to their family.

Are you okay with Robbwind and Catelyn being thrown naked into a river then? Because their dead so who cares? The fault is with Manderly for desecrating their corpses.