Tiliana Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 I think if we look at life for the average Westerosi, you would find that it is best currently in the Vale and Dorne. Why? Because their respective leaders both chose peace while their bannermen clamoured for war. If the people are happy and have a high likelihood of surviving winter wouldn't you call that good leadership? People like to get caught up in the "badass" antics or clever political maneuvers of the Starks or Lannisters and such but don't even look at what destruction and misery their choices have lead to for the people they rule as well as other innocents. Doran and Lysa stand above the rest imo, for choosing to say no to the game of thronesI believe we should appreciate these two figures more, despite their other personal failings as the models of what a lord/lady should aspire to be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elessar Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 When either of them could've dramatically changed the outcome yet neither chose to intervene while the Kingdom was torn asunder... "Paragons of leadership" is as far from the truth as can be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Good Guy Garlan Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 The wellfare of the smallfolk and their lords was far from Lysa's mind, that's for sure. She only cared about keeping enough swords around her and her son. And in true Lysa fashion, she almost failed in that too when she almost had Tyrion killed for nothing, which would have brought Tywin's wrath over the ValeAs for Doran, he gets closer to that title, but we know that despite his prevaricating he's still plotting for war Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferocious Veldt Roarer Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 Step 1: assist in setting your brother's and your sister's houses on fire.Step 2: observe from afar, refuse to lend your garden hose.Step 3: collect the prize for inspiring leadership, apparently justly earned during Steps 1 and 2. WTF?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trickrs Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 1. Doran is plotting for a war.2. Lysa was neutral to be get the Littlefinger, not to protect her people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Tony of House Stark Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 i do not believe the ends justify the means. the fast that there is relative peace in Dorne and the Vale does not mean they are paragons of leadership. Doran is biding his time for war and Lysa is just nuts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pod The Impaler Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 Step 1: assist in setting your brother's and your sister's houses on fire. Step 2: observe from afar, refuse to lend your garden hose. Step 3: collect the prize for inspiring leadership, apparently justly earned during Steps 1 and 2. WTF?! Step 3: Get pushed out of Moon Door by disinterested lover you sacrificed everything for. Step 4: Collect leadership prize, posthumously. Still, a better leader than Balon Greyjoy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blizzardborn Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 Doran I grant you but not Lysa. She was protecting herself and her son, not anyone else. Doran on the other hand knows he has fewer troops than anyone realizes and an outright war in the last few decades would have brought utter destruction for his people. Staying out of it and playing a long game instead was the only decent and logical thing to do. He's going to have to be very careful choosing sides in the upcoming Dance because all involved will have the power to roast him and his, though I don't think Daenerys will--he is family, after all, and his beloved Water Gardens were built for the first Daenerys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TallTyrion Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 Lysa can't be used as an example of good leadership since she isn't leading anything. She is Littlefinger's puppet nothing more. Lysa's "leadership" also lead to her murder, probably her sons murder, and losing Arryn control of the Vale. That's pretty god awful leadership if you ask me. As for Doran not "playing the game of thrones" that's just plain laughable. He has been plotting his revenge for years and will undoubtably be at war in the next book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingofSothoryos Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 If Lysa cared anything about peace or the smallfolk, she wouldn't have poisoned Jon Arryn, just to keep her boy close to her. And she sure wouldn't have sent that letter to Cat, blaming it on the Lannisters. I think the peace and tranquility that their regions enjoy has more to do with their respective remoteness, rather than because of great leadership. If either of their regions were on the west coast or at the crossroads of the continent, they would have been ravaged. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Tony of House Stark Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 :agree: Lysa def doesn't give two shits about the small folk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimim Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 If Lysa cared anything about peace or the smallfolk, she wouldn't have poisoned Jon Arryn, just to keep her boy close to her. And she sure wouldn't have sent that letter to Cat, blaming it on the Lannisters. I think the peace and tranquility that their regions enjoy has more to do with their respective remoteness, rather than because of great leadership. If either of their regions were on the west coast or at the crossroads of the continent, they would have been ravaged. Lysa is no paragon, I agree. Doran knows that Dorne can't take on anyone on its own, so that's a plus. He's also taking his time moving his pieces. I'm not sure what route he'll go; it might not be war at all, but some weird LF/Varys move. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janicia Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 It is often better to be lead by a passive do-nothing type than by somebody that charges around pursuing bad goals. The passive people probably aren't going to be the best leaders, but they won't be the worst either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Arthur Hightower Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 Doran is going to be a tragic character IMO, he genuinely cares about protecting his people, but he can't let go of his desire for revenge and ambition, despite, as Ellaria said, everyone even remotely responsible for Ellia's death having died horribly by this point. He is trying for revenge and to be a good Prince at the same time, but I see Dorne suffering because he wanted to get into the war. Lysa is Lysa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Tony of House Stark Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 Doran will likely die soon and Arianne will take over and inevitably screw things up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blizzardborn Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 Doran will likely die soon and Arianne will take over and inevitably screw things up :agree: I hope Doran gets to see dragons before he dies though. And that he and Dany share a moment of grief over Quentyn's death. I want her to see the Water Gardens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cat of the Rivers Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 Step 1: assist in setting your brother's and your sister's houses on fire. Step 2: observe from afar, refuse to lend your garden hose. Step 3: collect the prize for inspiring leadership, apparently justly earned during Steps 1 and 2. WTF?! Step 3: Get pushed out of Moon Door by disinterested lover you sacrificed everything for. Step 4: Collect leadership prize, posthumously Still, a better leader than Balon Greyjoy. Step One: Kill your husband who is the small piece of glue holding everything together Step Two: Go to the Eyrie and hope nobody notices you. Continue to smother your child and make him dependent on you for his every need even though he's the bloody ruler of the Vale Step Three: Involve your sister, brother and uncle in a total shit storm which ends up destroying your family and thus your natural allies Step Four: Accuse Tyrion Lannister of the murder of your husband which you committed and try to kill him and in the process anger Tywin Lannister Step Five: Send Tyrion to the High Road and get the mountain clans Lannister steel (Yes, seeing the mountain clans gaining Lannister steel requires hindsight but it was dishonest of Lysa to send Tyrion on the High Road even after he won his trial by combat and would have gotten him killed and thus bring Tywin's rage down on the Vale) Step Six: Somehow manage not to put down the mountain clans even though you possess the means of doing so Step Seven: Marry the guy who really doesn't bring much to the table and give him all your power. Anger and slight all the other suitors while doing so. Surely nothing could go wrong. Step Eight: Try to shove your niece out the Moon Door Step Nine: Get yourself shoved out the Moon Door by your apathetic lover who psychologically and emotionally manipulated you for all your life. Step Ten: Win the leadership prize. Profit. Lysa could not give any less fucks about the smallfolk and the mountain clans are ravaging the Vale ( targeting the villages which are populated with smallfolk) which she hadn't managed to put down (and now possess Lannister steel thanks to her) and was expecting LF to take care of everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee-Sensei Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 The fact that Lysa's Vale ended up better off than most other Kingdoms says a lot about the quality of some of Westeros' leaders. Doran's done pretty well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingofSothoryos Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 The only High Lord who truly seems to care about their smallfolk is Edmure Tully and we see just how bad a Lord he is cast as in the story! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The King in Black Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 They ain't no paragons for shit. The logical conclusion is that OTHER leaders in westeros suck more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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