The Riverlands Web V.2

[Booknerd2]

Here is the OP. It will always be a work in progress as characters, objects, places, post questions, and stuff is updated.

Here is the link to The Riverlands Web V.1 :

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/115856-the-riverlands-web/

Thank you again…and continue to bring on the funny!

The Riverlands Web: Or How Some People Can’t Shake a Connection if They Tried.

This was started because it branched out of another thread and took on a life of its own.

Many had thoughts regarding some characters and how far away they were from each other, and from the last two books we see that is now narrowing. The overlap or just missing each other that has been occurring will go somewhere eventually. In some cases, some theories were more likely than others. Many have debated what I called to myself the 6 degrees of Kevin Bacon or Starks. I dabbled here and there on threads, but always wished it would be in one place with everything in front.

Arcs are narrowing and have or are about to intersect. We started to only brush the surface and took a look. So we wanted to delve into situations/connections and interpretations of what they mean and could mean, and give it a place of its own.

Here are some we have discussed, there are certainly more: Mini-fact, organizer, profiles...

Primary Tier Characters:

Common thread: All in Riverlands area, and all looking for Sansa and Arya.

Brienne –of Tarth. Former Rainbow Guard member of Renly. Associated with Sapphires. Knew Catelyn, met Gendry and knows he’s Roberts’s son of her own accord, and I don’t need to elaborate on what she is currently doing for LS and BWB. We know her Jaime situation and she has fetched him. She is currently looking for Sansa and Arya Stark. She did not realize it but met Sandor on the QI. EB knows what her current mission is, he might have told Sandor. Sandor was standing around in his Novice Brother Halloween costume and surely heard something. Knows Thoros. Current Status: With Jaime

Sandor – No ser. House Clegane. Former bodyguard to King Joffrey. KG. Familiar with Sansa and Arya Stark. Run-in with BWB, LS thinks he was the last person to see Arya. Sandor knows Jaime from KL and earlier than that. Currently with EB (or maybe not?) Knows Thoros. Saw Gendry with Arya. Knows Catelyn Stark was the girls mother. Knowledge of LS through EB???Unknown and Speculative. Was there when Brienne showed up to QI. Reaction presently unknown. News he has gathered or input from EB unknown. Current Status: QI or Maybe not

Gendry – Ser of the Hollow Hill - Knighted by Dondarrion. Bastard son of King Robert. Part Targ and Estermont. Former blacksmith's apprentice. Familiar with Arya – now knows Brienne – at orphanage assisting with looking for Arya/ Sansa - member of BWB. Saw Sandor take Arya. Met Ned, and is working with LS. Knows Thoros. Current Status: with LS, Thoros, BWB

Lady Stoneheart (Catelyn Tully Stark) – AKA - Mother Merciless, The Hangwoman, LS for posts, - House Tully/Stark/BWB - Looking for Sansa and Arya. Knows Gendry. Reaction unknown. Most likely knows he was with Arya.Thinks Sandor took Arya. Working with BWB and familiar with Brienne and Jaime as Catelyn and now LS (again we know they are headed toward her, so no need to elaborate). Knows Thoros. Current Status: WIth BWB, Gendry, Thoros, etc.

Brynden - AKA Blackfish - House Tully - Uncle and Great Uncle of LS, Arya, & Sansa. Certainly no Jaime fan, a'tall. Whereabouts currently unknown, but last seen escaping from Riverrun. Knows Hound. Current Status: ??? - which translates to: No one has any idea where the hell he is currently.

Jaime -House Lannister - KG - familiar and with Brienne. Knew Catelyn and will possibly soon know LS. Knows Blacksfish. Knows Arya and Sansa and looking for them. Knows Sandor. Knows Thoros. Current Status: with Brienne

Stranger - "Driftwood" - Badass horse of Sandor Clegane - House Clegane - Allegiance to Sandor - No one else can go near him risking personal injury/loss of body parts - ex: ear - hates everyone but Sandor - Knows Sansa and Arya - Knows Jaime -Knows Thoros - Knows Gendry - Knows BWB - Saw Brienne briefly as she walked into his stable (he would say "jail") - hates Sandor's Novice Brother Halloween Costume - wants to keep his "bits" - surely incensed that EB could not come up with a better name than "Driftwood" (makes him sound like a dork) - grateful in a way that his stable stall is not near the others - unable to be gelded - unable to be handled/cared for by anyone but Sandor - Advice: Don't even try! Not looking particularly for Sansa and Arya but will most likely agree to it, if his owner will get a move on already and get him the hell off the QI. Actually, the horse will probably agree to anything at this point for freedom. Current Status: Eye-rolling and attempting to kick the damn stable door down at the QI, or he would say "jail."

Nymeria - AKA BIG NYMS -House Stark - direwolf - one of original 6 in litter - 4 left - only female left of litter - Arya's direwolf - Connection/shared extension of/with Arya - hates the friggin Lannisters, Freys, etc. for many reasons - female alpha - roaming Riverlands - Hates everyone - Knows/hates Jaime - Knew Catelyn - pulled Catelyn as LS out of water/aware of LS to some degree - might have seen Arya/been aware of a presence -More concerned with Arya than Sansa most likely, but…still went in to retrieve LS/Arys's mother - might know Gendry/BWB/Thoros anyone Arya was around ( few reasons it could be or could not be) - rules pack of other male and female wolves -HDWIC - Current Status: Pissed off! Meanwhile in the Riverlands...

Thoros - of Myr, priest of R'hllor, BWB, bromance with Beric, with LS/not happy with how she runs things, Knows Sandor. Knows Stranger. Knows Jaime. Looking for Arya and Sansa. Drinking buddies with King Robert. Known for sword on fire circus trick. Knows Brienne. Knows Gendry….???? we will get back to this. Current Status: With LS, Gendry, BWB

Secondary Tier Characters:

Harwin- House Stark allegiance - son of Hullen, Master of Horse of Winterfell - grew up and worked at Winterfell - stable boy/guard - Knows all members of House Stark very well, including previous generation, Rickard, Lyarra?, Ned, Brandon, Benjen, and Lyanna. Could id any Stark possibly. Used to lead Arya's pony as a child. Looking for Arya and Sansa. Could recently id Arya. BWB. Knows LS, Thoros, Sandor, Gendry, Jaime, other BWB members. Knows Nymeria. Current Status: BWB, and theories about being sent somewhere else.

Tom of Sevenstreams - AKA - Tom O' Sevens, Tom Sevenstrings - BWB. Knows Thoros, Sandor, Jaime, LS, Arya, Gendry. Singer/Lyricist/Musician. Plays woodharp. Hit single "The Floppy Fish." Familiar with House Tully (Edmure, Lysa, Hoster?) might know or know of Brynden. Current Status: Apparently, still in BWB, posing as musician looking for work, has infiltrated Frey camp at Riverrun, where he encountered Jaime. Can update LS on status of Edmure/other intelligence.

Lem Lemoncloak - Lem short for Lemoncloak - Redundant double name - some speculate an alias with more background he is not revealing for some reason - BWB - known for yellow cloak, bad teeth, broken nose not set and healed properly, large, strong man - Knows Thoros, Gendry, Arya, LS, Sandor, Brienne, Pod, Hyle. Currently: Utlizing Sandor's Hound Helm ( Mistaken identity issue? with BWB at the hanging that was halted.)

Anguy- AKA - The Archer - From Dorne - commoner -excellent at archery - Known to blow money on luxuries and girls - BWB - Knows Thoros, Gendry, Arya, LS, Sandor. Knows and turned down offer from Ned Stark to join the Hand's Guard. Current Status: BWB

Septon Meribald- Septon that travels the Riverlands - from the area originally - illiterate - able to memorize religious doctrine of the Seven - lives on random assistance for food and shelter in exchange for carrying out septon duties. Distributes food and goods to poor. Travels with a donkey and a dog named "Dog." Knows Brienne, EB, Pod, Hyle, did run in to Sandor and Stranger on QI. Brings up the "tales" of Nymeria in circulation, but doesn't know who she is. Knows BWB. Current Status: Unknown, But allowed to go about his business by BWB.

Podrick Payne - "Pod" - House Payne - House is sworn to House Lannister - former squire to Tyrion - now accompanying Brienne - Knows Sandor. Saw EB, Sandor, Stranger? Would he know Sandor's horse? Knows Jaime. Looking for Arya and Sansa Stark. Looking for Tyrion. Knows Sansa enough to possibly id her, which would be asset to Brienne. Knows BWB. Knows LS. Knows Gendry. Knows Thoros. Knows Meribald. Current Status: Held for insurance by LS and BWB - almost hung, but reprieved temporarily.

Hyle Hunt- House Hunt - knight - allegiance to House Tarly - Knows Brienne, Pod, BWB, LS, Thoros, Meribald - rocky acquaintance with Brienne to begin with - Saw EB, Sandor, and Stranger - marriage proposal to Brienne was flatly denied - Did offer to fight Jaime in Brienne's place, offer denied. Seems to be looking for Sansa and Arya Stark, really, doing and going wherever Brienne is/does. Issues: may report back to Randyll Tarly. Obviously, knows Brienne is sole heir to Tarth and female, thus why he attempted to propose marriage. Current Status: Held for insurance by LS and BWB - almost hung, but reprieved temporarily.

The Hot Pie - From Flea Bottom, orphan, baker, does not kick people in the balls to death, contrary to what he said, Familiar with Arya and Gendry, Knows BWB, Knows Thoros, Current Status: In Riverlands at Inn of the Kneeling Man - baking the Westeros version of the cronut - Inn named for Arya Stark ancestor, Torrhen, The King Who Knelt.

Tertiary Tier Characters:

Post Questions Previously Covered: But hey, rehash at any time!

Post Question #1: Do you think Thoros knows already who Gendry is? Will a Gendry identity reveal, in general, cause problems in an already divided BWB? Is his safety at risk? LS?

Post Question No. #2: Why do we love Stranger and why he is like an Ancient Greek theatre aside?

Post Question #3: Why we love Nymeria (Big Nyms), Nymeria going forward, and how she is one of the “Benchwarmers.”

Post Question: #4: The Wolf Pack dynamic: or how to name-drop Hot Pie and get him back into the story.

Post Question #5: Who the hell is Jaqen H’gar? What is it with that guy?

Post Question #6: Sandor Goes Trick-or-Treating: What is in store for him, especially in the Riverlands? When a Sandor Eulogy Gets Cancelled

Post Question #7

Do you want to ride in my Mercedes, boy: It's the last thing you'll ever do. (mercy chapter)

Post Question #8: Jaime Lannister is going to have a bad day…a really friggin' bad day.

Post Question:#9: Where in the World is Brynden Sandiego?

Post Question #10: Uncat Rises: A Season of Bloom and Doom

Post Question #11: The Hound and The Bull at the Helm: What do they mean to them, to their story, the series, and you.

[*ghosti-]

On the previous thread, posters discussed Yoren & the three prisoners from the Black Cells. Given what we later learn of Biter & Rorge, what did Yoren think would happen with those guys at the Wall? From all appearances they appear unwilling to follow any rules.

[Booknerd2]

On the previous thread, posters discussed Yoren & the three prisoners from the Black Cells. Given what we later learn of Biter & Rorge, what did Yoren think would happen with those guys at the Wall? From all appearances they appear unwilling to follow any rules.

Exactly. We know them to be completely uncontrollable and unruly. Committing mass crimes…and God knows what they were arrested for initially, which surely was a single incident, yet they had many before that. I think we can bet on that.

The NW that desparate? Yeah it is. They are always saying that, and we hear it voiced from many crows. But you wonder if people are going to be that much of a liability, and you have to sleep next to them with the lights on, is it worth it?

Nothing…phases Yoren. He seems to have seen it all and maybe the approach was to deal with it day to day. Or, he just didn’t have the info we have about them as readers. Worry about it later? Straighten them out over time? Uh, let Thorne deal with it?

Maybe he only heard things and gives everyone a chance, and from what he saw they were both very subdued, because for whatever reason they were scared silly of Jaqen.

[Booknerd2]

Just a list of the five we covered in V.1 I will leave this as a permanent post in the V.2 OP and update as it goes.

Post Question #1: Do you think Thoros knows already who Gendry is? Will a Gendry identity reveal, in general, cause problems in an already divided BWB? Is his safety at risk? LS?

Post Question No. #2: Why do we love Stranger and why he is like an Ancient Greek theatre aside?

Post Question #3: Why we love Nymeria (Big Nyms), Nymeria going forward, and how she is one of the “Benchwarmers.”

Post Question: #4: The Wolf Pack dynamic: or how to name-drop Hot Pie and get him back into the story.

Post Question #5: Who the hell is Jaqen H’gar? What is it with that guy?

[Dya of Oldstones]

Sansa is still in the Vale, which may not be actually Riverlands, but close enough. I suspect her storyline will keep her in the Riverlands for a while before she heads back north, especially if she crosses paths with Sandor and Stranger again.

As much of a badass as Stranger is, he's a sweet summer horse stallion. I know...blasphemy, but hear me out. It was mentioned several times in ADWD when Stannis was headed to Winterfell how hard of a time the destriers and coursers (the type of horse Stranger is) were having in the heavy snow. I don't have the chapters handy now, but the southron knights with Stannis the Mannis' army kept falling behind the northerners who were riding garons.

He's one of my favorite critters in the series and right up there with the Stark children's direwolves and Mormont's raven. I'm just thinking that GRRM is hinting that Stranger and Sandor have further "bidness" to take care of in the Riverlands.

[Booknerd2]

Sansa is still in the Vale, which may not be actually Riverlands, but close enough. I suspect her storyline will keep her in the Riverlands for a while before she heads back north, especially if she crosses paths with Sandor and Stranger again.

As much of a badass as Stranger is, he's a sweet summer horse stallion. I know...blasphemy, but hear me out. It was mentioned several times in ADWD when Stannis was headed to Winterfell how hard of a time the destriers and coursers (the type of horse Stranger is) were having in the heavy snow. I don't have the chapters handy now, but the southron knights with Stannis the Mannis' army kept falling behind the northerners who were riding garons.

He's one of my favorite critters in the series and right up there with the Stark children's direwolves and Mormont's raven. I'm just thinking that GRRM is hinting that Stranger and Sandor have further "bidness" to take care of in the Riverlands.

Hey!

Did you totally read my mind today? Guess who are coming up next? Hint: They are in your post. Well, v.2 just started, and I have been fixing the OP, putting all the post questions together as a list and just fixing stuff in general.

I'm not sure but I have a few more snippets and Jaqen might be wrapping up. But with all the questions, we can go back to anyone at any time, because it all has to do with the Riverlands Web.

So, why do I think you read my mind? Because Sandor is up next. Maybe today, maybe tomorrow. It depends how fast Jaqen gets wrapped up, and I have to do a little post question blurb thing for Sandor. And you know, wherever he goes, his trusty steed is right behind him, so Stranger is coming up too.

And we can't discuss them without discussing Sansa too.

I am hoping a bit more Jaqen, I know there is more stuff, and we will have to revisit him, but hopefully later today, Sandor.

[Booknerd2]

Ok, a few more snippets with Jaqen and Arya. We can wrap it up, comment if you want, and then Sandor later today.

So...

Just speculating. I am leaning toward thinking that Arya may come back near the Riverlands. That is my first choice or preference. Which isn't worth a damn. Just guessing. KL would be my second choice. Now the whole North thing. Well, especially here, she would be identified so quick not even funny, if she met Nymeria already, with or without a disguise. We know that. But not so, if she pulls her FM face tricks, but no Nymeria. We just don't know. So I don't think that is happening. I don't know how going anywhere with Nymeria is going to work, unless she is within a big group of people, on her side, or a big group of wolves. The BWB could serve that purpose, but they are having internal problems too. Also, North, we have what’s going on there with Stannis, Ramsay, and a bunch of Northern houses, and everybody else. So even going unidentified as with another face, they are keeping track of everybody. If you are a new washerwoman, or even posing as a prostitute, or a new stable boy, they are going to be watching your ass, so it is even worse if you are unidentified or unknown. In the wartorn Riverlands with bodies, and movement/travelling to get in or away front the war, harder to notice a new person, Nothing. In the North they are making note of everyone for fear of treachery. There are already unexplained deaths and people disappearing. The high tension in the north has been going on for awhile, and then there is the whole Jon Snow stuff. I don't think she ends up there, not yet. Maybe by 7. Or I could be completely wrong. Even the hooded man has been lucky getting around. And I am pretty convinced she will meet up with Big Nyms again, so that will dictate who will go where and to whom. That is connected to exactly where she goes after leaving Braavos.

Because she is going to bust out of there and from them eventually.

We will do a Mercy segment one day. But that list is going to keep her from FM permanence too. Has already…she, also like Needle, won’t give the list up.

In a way, with fate playing a hand too, it could be Jaqen saved her life. No Hound to protect her after the bar brawl. She was away from the Bwb. It kept her safe. But life is hard. Keeping her safe and away from Westeros got her into stuff I’d rather she not, but then again she will also learn survival skills, and other stuff. She already has.

Also, the list would be anticlimactic. You can’t kill people you know before becoming an FM. Or so we hear. There would go the whole list. Not happening. It is staying around for now like Needle has.

I want to eventually come back to the coin’s purpose. The FM calling card, if you will. I need to think about how I want to say it and re-visit it for a later date.

I am not really worried about Jaqen/Pate and Sam. Sam is so not dying, so maybe he foils him or something happens. He leaves? Something else?

We hit this before. Does Jaqen and/or the FM know she is Arya Stark? No. Or if so, how early?

Can Jaqen tell she is highborn? He knew she was a girl. I think he “read” this super quick, through mannerisms, speak, maybe other stuff. That despite hard living on the road, he would know what to look for.

What is in it for you if you join FM, really? If you are not of the religion, you can’t even train to kill people that have wronged you. You do not get paid at minimum or live in luxury. No ties or family. Ok, you exist. Or when you go up the scale it gets better. Does Jaqen get a bank account, unlimited funds, or he steals and lives off each day's experience?

The answer: Someone with no options becomes an FM. But you would think with the formidable skills they have, why not go elsewhere if you can? We think, Jaqen only picked Arya because he saw something in her. How do they know that if you receive training and become James Bond after they take you up. Anyone get dismissed?

So what is the admissions policy for acceptance?

And Jaqen. What is the point? He has no regrets? He wants that life for Arya? If he does care for her and they are buddies?

[Booknerd2]

Ok. Let us move on from Jaqen. We can always get back to him or any question whenever. We’ve done a mystery assassin killer, a horse, a direwolf, and a Hot Pie for the last few questions. Now for a Hound…

Oh, gosh, this one came out super silly too…and long, but a lot to cover.

Post Question #6: Sandor Goes Trick-or-Treating: What is in store for him, especially in the Riverlands?

When a Sandor Eulogy Gets Cancelled

So I get a phone call back. I had left a message and tried to keep the hysterics to a minimum. That’s okay, people were used to my hyperventilating over Lady and Ned. I called someone who read the series before me. Thank God, for dial-a-dork emotional counseling and assistance.

My honey watches the show. He is no friggin’ help. No books. Doesn’t know what the hell he is missing…

I was in deep morning. The curtains closed. I wore black. Ok, not for the Hound, that is just what I had on. I had thrown a book down and was prepared to pull a Sansa and cry myself to sleep at the sadness and unfairness of it all. A book 3 re-read was upon me.

But then I had also been on the forums to read some stuff/threads from book 4 that were not making sense to me, because I was still reading book 4 after the QI and it hadn’t sunk in yet. Also, I had just started reading the forums. And I was re-reading parts of book 3 because I had to relive the sad parting when Arya leaves and the Hound dies, because I had just seen something, and had to be sure….I didn’t want to celebrate too early, nor get out of mourning prematurely.

My thoughts were in a whirl as it was.

All that I had known for a short time, because I flew through the books, was that my favorite swashbuckling, binge-drinking, sour wine-swilling, red shirt with a puffy dog decal wearing, dog-loving, Stranger-daddying, Sansa-worshipping, Arya-needling, Joffrey-protecting, bad temper-throwing, foul mouthed-swearing, knight/ser-hating, fire-fearing, Gregor-score-evening, corny with the ladies… but fierce-fighting, yet good heart-hiding, character was dead. And it sucked.

So about that phone call…But this had been my rule beforehand: Don’t tell me anything unless I ask and I am up to that part in the book. You read it first, I am not there yet. I haven’t finished. I don’t care if I fold in a moment of weakness and want to know. I really don’t. Just think of a kid getting their presents a week before Christmas. I am not stable at the moment. I don’t really mean it. Don’t listen to me. I am still getting over Lady and Ned…and other stuff.

But now I was past the part I was asking about. So I asked. This is what I was told during that phone call.

“It is a shame the Hound died. He is dead. When you are really dead you can’t come back. That is the obvious layer.”

Layer of what? What?

“But he is not dead. Well, the Hound is, but even he, or all of the “Hound” may not be forever…if that makes sense. And Sandor, on the other hand, is very much alive.”

I responded.

What the hell are you talking about? What is this crap? How long have we been friends? Will you…dare you toy with me? He is dead. I saw it. I mean, I read it. And it sucked. And it was really sad. And he could have done and been so much more with time. Sansa may never know he cared to my liking. But my rainbow of hope got shot down fast, so please….step off my cloud.

Then I shut up. I let what she told me sink in.

Wait. What do you mean he is NOT dead?

And the conversation went on. Back to book 4 and back to theories for book 4 on the forum. And it came together for me.

Yeah, the Hound is dead, but Sandor is alive.

Oh, that is right. He is going trick-or-treating on the QT on the QI. I am speaking in code, because I don’t want to reveal it is him in that godawful Novice Brother Halloween Costume. Well, EB (Elder Brother) knows, Stranger certainly knows, and maybe some and not all other brothers or people that come to stay or will stay do? But nobody knows off the Isle. That’s what matters. That is what I let the code go.

You know, how the female areas got a few mentions. Any females coming to QI down the road. Those theories are out there.

Ah-ha. See what I did right there? I said the Hound, not Sandor. Who is still pissed that we profiled Stranger before him. He will get over it. He is totally used to not getting female attention…

But hopefully not that pissed anymore, after rest, relaxation, reflection and some serious psychoanalysis time with EB. Get it all off your big chest with the broad shoulders, big guy. It can only help in your case, and I think it has. Because after you heard a Sansa update, went bat shit crazy with shock and grief, did some college frat binge drinking, almost got yourself killed, (smack my head) and then broke down and blubbered to Arya all about her sister and other regrets you had. Er, the transformation was already set in motion; the desire to change. And the most important part, it was not coerced. It came from you. And really, nothing else matters.

And let’s admit it. Well, before that, Sandor, you were already trying to steer conversation with Arya to Sansa. Don’t want to embarrass you, dude, but it happened. That is ok. Many have been there before. Guilty.

But you get brownie points, because you made Arya get out of a hole. You knew to keep her up and at ‘em, to keep busy and a sense of routine. Out of caring and concern, but also because you know first hand. It is a hard hole, depression, anger, disaster, and hopelessness, to dig and crawl yourself out of. Because the RW was a disaster and earth-shattering for her and for you. You both took it badly.

So, we can wait. I don’t mind waiting…

I have no problem letting you benchwarm, just like Stranger, Big Nyms, and Gendry are doing, but especially you, Stranger, and Gendry when you guys signed up for a cameo appearance in AFFC.

You know, to let us know you are not down for the count, still in the running, to leave a cliffhanger, and to let us remember you, and that you are not leaving us yet.

So you and EB faked your death. Smart. Threw the Hound helm out there on a fake grave for good measure. You do have some tricks up your sleeve. The sleeve of that dorky gown and cowl that Sandor has to look like a complete idiot in.

But you know what, maybe you are not that smart?

Or I blame EB and a little bit of both of you.

But maybe you are smart, smarter than me, because I had to get a phone call, a tv show-like lifeline thrown to me, like the one EB threw you, and he probably regrets it now terribly, but Stranger too. Also, the forum posts helped me put it together and get out of mourning for you. In a way, I was so used to the disaster in the series, your scene was so moving and real and tragic, (well, your whole life), Arya left you, and other stuff, that I was lulled into not taking notice of anything anymore, or was too pained to bother to open my eyes when hope (the QI chapter) was staring me right in the face. Just too much to register…and your girlfriend is in trouble and needs you, misses you, and I couldn’t open myself up to the both of you, and your back and forth crap, and that maybe…it wasn’t over yet.

But it’s in there; several treats, like the shoveling of graves. The one quiet, novice brother dude being tall and broad-shouldered and it being noted, was even taller than Brienne. Not speaking and covering up with the robes and cowl like Batman. Scratching a dog named Dog. Stranger getting to the Isle and the death count is 0, well, so far, but the injury count probably soaring in the stable. EB’s whole conversation with Brienne…and that little throwing the dirt thing, which thank you LeCygne for pointing that choice morsel out, for I never picked up on that. Oh, and many other things too.

But I’m not mad. I love your character and I am relieved. Joyous and relieved both.

But guess what? Nobody tricks or treats on the QI. Well, Brienne, Hyle, and Pod came to the door, and oh, boy, we certainly got a friggin treat!

But what I really mean is, and Stranger and I would both, like to make an intervention here; lose the friggin Halloween Costume already!

And Stranger…he is concerned about you and his nuts, yours too, and he just wants the name Driftwood dropped. Not so much the candy this Halloween, but his jewels. They had already threatened to geld him. To change and distort him, and he doesn’t want it to happen to him or you either. He will fight to keep his edge until his dying breath, and no problem there, he likes to fight usually over nothing for fun anyway, but staying in that stable any longer is pushing him off the edge, and into the deep end. And he, er, would like to avoid that.

He doesn’t belong there. Neither do you. You need to take what you have learned, temper the inner beast, stop making like a tree, sort yourself out, push forward and move ahead. Oh, and while you are at it, please, lose the gown,‘kay?

Take the time for what it is worth, but truly don’t end up burying yourself alive there, until you really are dead.

Stranger told me. He calls me too. He knows that some of us love him and joke with him, not at him, on this thread and profiled him already. He is trying to reach you. But so far he can’t. But he hasn’t given up hope yet. Not his style. Not while there is fight still left in him, the good fight to fight, any fight to fight, and he still has guts, nuts, and spirit, but he is seriously tired of trying to fight off the brothers. The fall out and count of cuts, bruises, missing ears, bandages, and what have you is mounting.

Stranger said they tried to put a novice robe on him too, but he knocked a brother out cold and broke the asshole’s fibula. He had warned him. Er, I think he exaggerated that part and took it a little too far. Maybe he thought it would sound better for his street cred in the post question? That part I don’t believe of his sad story… Hey, but this is what Stranger told me, ok. Oh, I mean the robe part. I totally believe somebody got knocked out cold and an asshole got his fibula broken. He is probably being modest and like took out three guys.

Also, everyday that stable door gets a little bit less stable…if you know what I mean. Because he will not go down with out kicking and fighting… He can’t be assimilated. As Axl Rose once said: “They won’t break me.” That is from a charming ditty entitled “Outta Get Me.” He won’t be forced into something he is not. And to him that stable, the QI even is a cage, and he is raring to get out and go.

He has faces to bite on the outside. Time is a-wasting. Come on, it is what he does best.

Because I think, much like the Red God, hey, we have something in common, who knew, me and R’hllor….We both think that your life is not over yet. Actually, it might just be beginning. I can’t forget the important things you have done, or what is holding you to life, but I see a lot. It won’t be easy but I am taking the Red god’s word on this one. Not Mel’s, or anyone of his other supposed reps.

And Stranger doesn’t care either way, he just wants to get the hell off the island.

Let us also do a little Scrooge and take a look at your life highlights.

You made friends with Arya, rocky at first but it improved. You got off her shit/hit list. You protected her. You didn’t trust the BWB and put your ass on the line. Sorry, I don’t believe the reward bit. You just told Arya that. Because that directly conflicts with pushing for cash, returning her, and leaving, and going about your not so merry, pissed off way, and then also saying you want to join Robb Stark’s service. “He needs me.” No, be honest, you want to be needed, and that is no short term proposition. You also mentioned lord and land and that is pretty permanent too. It sounded like a life plan. Not a five year one. And I want to see you buddy road it again with Arya or at least work for a common purpose with others. Maybe down the road she might even be your sister-in-law? To get that chance with the Starks you wanted, but never got, because shit happens.

Well, really Freys, Boltons, and Lannsiters make stupid shit happen, but they will pay for that. It has already started.

You wanted to give up everything, whoever you were and wanted to be, your values, beliefs, for love. Well, you did. You left KL for a death sentence, you wanted to be a dog ruled by you alone, and you, against everything you ever believed, were willing to go help Robb and get into Stark service for the girl you loved. Totally, trying to build a new life, new start, and hopefully help get the girl back. And to fight with the good guys, and you knew it wouldn’t be easy. You have a rep. With no strings attached. No guarantees. That would also have been helping her mother Cat. Sansa was still on the inside, the KL big house, and you were out, so you tried to do what she couldn’t. Go find her family and help them with whatever you could offer.

And Sansa. I have nothing to say. You love her.

The risks and sacrifices, really your whole life and vision for yourself, though unsuccessful at the time, but that you were willing to take or part with, speaks volumes. It almost cancels out the really bad flirting and compliments that went oh, so wrong. The harsh words, the scare tactics, most of anything you said and did that was not thought out very well.

Pssst…between you and me…. You did it. She likes you. It may not be unrequited. All she does is think about you and compare you to other guys. You did good. Er, whatever you did. It friggin’ worked. Get this, she even thinks you kissed her, and…she didn’t want to throw up or wash her mouth out.

You like dogs and pet “Dog” the dog. Animal lovers also get some brownie points.

And you were an insider. You have to help the Riverlands Webers maybe. But certainly Sansa and Arya both. You know who the bad guys are. You worked for them. They harbored your brother and still do. Well, whatever parts of him, physical/mental or whatever with a little mix of pixie dust and magic that the creepy Qyburn crammed into a fancy white KG suit of armor, like a stuffed sausage. You have to contribute to that.

Even if not Cleganebowl, than that whole network of Cersei’s and the rest of the bad guys, because you are on Team Stark and wanted to join. You were on anyway for your caring of Sansa and Arya.

So now, if you do get out, and encounter Sansa. Let the Love Doctor give you same advice.

(Click) Oh, another phone call. It is Stranger again from the QI. He got hold of a cell phone so I am not sure if that zero death count just went up to 1. I just hung up. He wants out. I can’t do anything to help. Sandor has to do it. I’m not taking any more phone calls from him. Sorry.

Nobody can make Sandor do it. It will come from him. But I am not saying that news or someone comes to him, and helps it along. Or he just does a lot of hard thinking and realizes he has to go. I also think that the thought of Sansa and Arya out there, would help it along too.

Ok, let us hit the second button line, which is Sandor.

Even though you are calling and I can’t see you, thank God, I don’t have to look at that stupid gown.

He is using Stranger’s phone. God, that horse has to do all the thinking lately…

Well then, now, as for Sansa, when you see her again, a bit of advice, because you’re not so smooth conversations with her have got to go.

Somebody asked me once: What do you make of Sandor every time he acts like a fool and a giddy teenager when he attempts to talk to Sansa and gets it, oh, so very wrong?

Me: He talks to her like some idiot that is drunk-dialing someone they are in love with. And they are so going to regret it in the morning, that and the hangover. Cringe-inducing. Yeah, almost every conversation sounded something like that. I felt sorry and embarrassed for you. I had to close the book several times and then start again. But I laughed my ass off too. Er, sorry. I did.

The gruff speech is somebody that doesn’t have a clue what they are doing, how they come off, and needs some polish. But no bad intentions for her…the talk doesn’t match the walk. I know that. Deep down, you are a good guy, and you are trying to be. The anger has to be resolved and let go. Could be nerves too, because you are almost always nursing a sour red wineskin for liquid courage when you talk to her. Usually, you did it before you even got there. And you do have the oddest way of noticing things or appearing out of thin air.

Coincidence, is it, that you just manage to walk into her? I don’t think so.

How do you do it? Have you been talking to Jacket Cigar about spying?

I think not. But, you know what, I don’t think girlfriend noticed. And it doesn’t matter, because she totally does not mind you so much anymore.

Your secret is safe with us. We know you are a stalker or were. She doesn’t.

Just if and when she rescues you, you rescue her, or she just runs into you, or whatever theory is out there, leave the knife at home, and the gruff language. It did not do you any favors. You scared the crap out of her and made yourself look like a moron and a loose cannon.

Maybe go easy on the wineskin too?

Mean what you say. Mind how you act. Think first. And you will save yourself a lot of grief.

But sometimes that works for you too. So in the moment, emotional, honest, hurt, that you just spill stuff out, or say or do stupid or terrible things to put a wall up.

If I can be crass and so not engaging… I won’t get hurt.

Sandor: Silence.

Cut the crap. We know it is you. Stop the vow of silence shit right now. I think you are posing as a brother, yours is a special case. I don’t think you dived right in to actually being one. Save it for the Isle! The line connection is fine.

Click.

Ok, I hung up. Nothing I can do for you. You have to go it alone. Heed my words.

But I will be fist-pumping and rooting for you in the next installment. And cheering the Deathly Drop-Kicking Destrier as well. Stranger, the Medical Insurance Premium Raiser, that was whelped in hell.

So for the Riverlands Web: Where to next? Does he get off? How? Why? What will he be like? Where does he go? Does he and Stranger team up with anyone? How does he view Sansa now? Any presence in the Riverlands Web and when?

[LongRider]

On the previous thread, posters discussed Yoren & the three prisoners from the Black Cells. Given what we later learn of Biter & Rorge, what did Yoren think would happen with those guys at the Wall? From all appearances they appear unwilling to follow any rules.

They did join The Brave Companions for awhile (an organised group), but totally turned outlaw when they could. My (rather lame) point being that they could be part of a group, at least for awhile, but yeah, I've wondered the same as you.

Edit: oh, and YAY! Volume II! Congratulations booknerd2!

:commie: :commie: :commie: :commie:

[LongRider]

I got 'spoiled' on the Gravedigger theory after book 3 and before book 4. When I came to the QI passages, I read them three times just to wallow in them. I read a thread awhile back on Sandor's redemption and many fans think he is 'at peace' and his arc should end. Someone made a comment along the lines of, 'Who sez he's at peace? He very well could not be and can't wait to move on.' Well, that's a paraphrase of course, but that made me think that perhaps that poster was on to something.

Since then the idea as Stranger as a barometer of Sandor's feeling has come to my attention I no longer think Sandor is at peace. Like Stranger, sooner or later, he will be kicking to get out.

As for the concern for Stranger in winter, yes that's a worry. Plus, Sandor is southern boy and what does he know of snow? He'll take the best care of Stranger he can, that we know. So I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

[Booknerd2]

I got 'spoiled' on the Gravedigger theory after book 3 and before book 4. When I came to the QI passages, I read them three times just to wallow in them. I read a thread awhile back on Sandor's redemption and many fans think he is 'at peace' and his arc should end. Someone made a comment along the lines of, 'Who sez he's at peace? He very well could not be and can't wait to move on.' Well, that's a paraphrase of course, but that made me think that perhaps that poster was on to something.

Since then the idea as Stranger as a barometer of Sandor's feeling has come to my attention I no longer think Sandor is at peace. Like Stranger, sooner or later, he will be kicking to get out.

As for the concern for Stranger in winter, yes that's a worry. Plus, Sandor is southern boy and what does he know of snow? He'll take the best care of Stranger he can, that we know. So I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

Thank you, Longie! Yeah, V.2. And only five questions were covered in that first one. There is just so much with this Riverlands stuff. I forgot to post yesterday, but I even am going to throw out some future topics too to get the brains prepped. Stuff to think about beforehand, because it is a lot.

I wish that had happened to me, maybe less stress. I should be the poster person for threads about "Stuff you didn't notice the first time." For the big stuff, my first time reading, I wasn't used to his style, and I really thought the Hound was dead, I only realized R&L=J from the forums, for example.…. I just trusted face value stuff. LOL! I just took what was there and left it at that.

Many believe he is at peace, or they want that for him. That is fine, everyone can have their opinion. I gave it a shot long ago, but it doesn't sit well with me. For many reasons, but, like you said. Especially Stranger. And like that great, yet simple, quote from the poster you mentioned. Yeah! "Who says he is at peace?"

You used the perfect word. That is it in a nutshell. "Stranger as Sandor's barometer." What took me rants and like three essays to ramble about, you got it in one word.

That is why I don't think Sandor stays on the Isle, nor that he wants too, or will. Stranger reflects him just as much as the dire wolves reflect their owners thoughts and feelings. Stranger is his counterpart too. He busted Sansa and Arya a lot about their affinity with wolves, ok, and you have a big one with dogs and your horse.

Now, if he was staying…I think the chapter would have been written differently. But I have some ideas and have to write it out. How? I will post something later. Because your post now, just made a whole bunch of stuff fly into my head, that I have to think over. I will post again.

[LongRider]

Thank you, Longie! Yeah, V.2. And only five questions were covered in that first one. There is just so much with this Riverlands stuff. I forgot to post yesterday, but I even am going to throw out some future topics too to get the brains prepped. Stuff to think about beforehand, because it is a lot.

I wish that had happened to me, maybe less stress. I should be the poster person for threads about "Stuff you didn't notice the first time." For the big stuff, my first time reading, I wasn't used to his style, and I really thought the Hound was dead, I only realized R&L=J from the forums, for example.…. I just trusted face value stuff. LOL! I just took what was there and left it at that.

Many believe he is at peace, or they want that for him. That is fine, everyone can have their opinion. I gave it a shot long ago, but it doesn't sit well with me. For many reasons, but, like you said. Especially Stranger. And like that great, yet simple, quote from the poster you mentioned. Yeah! "Who says he is at peace?"

You used the perfect word. That is it in a nutshell. "Stranger as Sandor's barometer." What took me rants and like three essays to ramble about, you got it in one word.

That is why I don't think Sandor stays on the Isle, nor that he wants too, or will. Stranger reflects him just as much as the dire wolves reflect their owners thoughts and feelings. Stranger is his counterpart too. He busted Sansa and Arya a lot about their affinity with wolves, ok, and you have a big one with dogs and your horse.

Now, if he was staying…I think the chapter would have been written differently. But I have some ideas and have to write it out. How? I will post something later. Because your post now, just made a whole bunch of stuff fly into my head, that I have to think over. I will post again.

You and me both sister, poster children for "What do you mean there is more than meets the eye?" LOL! That's why I love the forums, I've learned so much and see how GRRM is such a good writer.

And your point that if Sandor was staying on the QI it would have been written differently is very good and makes sense. Stranger wants to jet and the Gravedigger disses' Brienne's party by throwing dirt on their feet. That Sandor, always has an opinion about everything and makes it known, even if he has taken a vow of silence.

[Le Cygne]

I spent so much time on the last thread talking about Sandor! He's my favorite, what can I say. But no, he's not going to stay there. And there's more to come with Sansa.

[Booknerd2]

Crap, I know what you guys mean.

We were on one thread a long time ago, not just RW, and we went to town on Sandor. And I can't find it, but there were a few posts back and forth about the dirt-throwing.

When it was pointed out to me, I took it as the Wild West movies thingie. Like when someone spits or doesn't care and misses a spittoon. And they too usually get the cowboy boot or whatever. LOL! He was pissed, and/or it was a hint that he has not lost his edge. He is still him, with vast improvements of the the stuff he had to fix.

Then…I was just compelled to do a little research on dirt-throwing. I found some interesting takes on it. Let me put it together and I will post that and the how I think the chapter would have been written differently stuff if he wanted to stay, too.

[Le Cygne]

That sounds good! Also I don't even think he'd have bothered writing the chapter if he was going to stay. Just have someone mention it. So GRRM not only wrote the chapter, but told horsey stories, which, much as we love Stranger, where his head is at these days doesn't merit inclusion in the book - if not for Sandor.

But also that Sansa is still going to town with her Sandor-paloozas is telling. There were a couple of chapters where she was practically channeling him throughout, the one at the Fingers, and her last chapter. And of course, he's still a constant presence in her chapters, even though, as she put it, he left her.

And... his name is mentioned frequently by others as well, throughout the last two books.

[LongRider]

And after AFFC, Sandor and the Hound was mentioned in chapter after chapter in each book. Like, 'hey you guys! I won't let you forget about Sandor Clegane! What do you think he's dead or somethin'?'

That GRRM, sometimes not such a subtle fellow.

:P

[Le Cygne]

And this, about Sansa, "she will be singing to the Stranger, begging for his kiss." Such an obvious nod to the unkiss and you know who.

Also GRRM playing the Elder Brother:

Question: Will Sandor and Sansa meet again in the future?

GRRM: Why, the Hound is dead, and Sansa may be dead as well. There's only Alayne Stone.

Bad link, looks like they archived it here:

http://bn.cdn.lithium.com/t5/Center-Stage/April-14-18-George-R-R-Martin/td-p/167745/page/2

[Booknerd2]

Oh, yeah…and he is a stranger in many ways. To himself, hence needing a time out on the isle, he is one because an old identity is known to be dead, and he may have to re-enter life off the island and not singing from the rooftops who he is, meaning he may lie low and go around incognito for awhile, and his horse is Stranger.

And also I thought of this:

What is the old literary motif, with the girl in stories going somewhat:

He left me, he left me, oh, I can’t believe he left me….

Well, the dude always seems to come back. Not 100% always, but they usually re-enter the story.

[LongRider]

I think you've uncovered a theme Bookie, Sandor, a stranger in many ways, and Sansa, a Lady and a lady, both name their beloved animals........Stranger and Lady!

Cool!

[Le Cygne]

There's also Lady and the Tramp. Get ready to laugh:

http://paloma-nevada.tumblr.com/post/73713764788/game-of-disney-second-part-of-it-is-here