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The Riverlands Web V.2


Booknerd2

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For dirt, dirt in general and the act of throwing it, and funerary stuff...



When throwing dirt, it means you are throwing something away. Land, soil is of value, or important. Maybe in his case his identity of the hound was a big part of his life and who he was. So it could mean that. Or on the other hand, the Hound anger and negative shortcomings had no value, thus "cleaning house" or "throwing out the garbage" of his past life as the Hound.



The act of throwing it means you are losing it, giving it way, tossing it out, what have you.



I already posted that I took it as an insult because it hit their feet. Hence the "throwing dirt" or "mud-slinging."



Man, the "losing ground' expression can be interpreted many ways. Even stretching with "falling away."



And with funerary stuff. Seeing the throwing of dirt on a grave as planting a new seed. A new life. Resurrecting. Emgerging in a new form.



Er, the chapter other stuff is going to take longer.








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Just speculating. I am leaning toward thinking that Arya may come back near the Riverlands. That is my first choice or preference. Which isn't worth a damn. Just guessing. KL would be my second choice. Now the whole North thing. Well, especially here, she would be identified so quick not even funny, if she met Nymeria already, with or without a disguise. We know that. But not so, if she pulls her FM face tricks, but no Nymeria. We just don't know. So I don't think that is happening. I don't know how going anywhere with Nymeria is going to work, unless she is within a big group of people, on her side, or a big group of wolves. The BWB could serve that purpose, but they are having internal problems too. Also, North, we have what’s going on there with Stannis, Ramsay, and a bunch of Northern houses, and everybody else. So even going unidentified as with another face, they are keeping track of everybody. If you are a new washerwoman, or even posing as a prostitute, or a new stable boy, they are going to be watching your ass, so it is even worse if you are unidentified or unknown. In the wartorn Riverlands with bodies, and movement/travelling to get in or away front the war, harder to notice a new person, Nothing. In the North they are making note of everyone for fear of treachery. There are already unexplained deaths and people disappearing. The high tension in the north has been going on for awhile, and then there is the whole Jon Snow stuff. I don't think she ends up there, not yet. Maybe by 7. Or I could be completely wrong. Even the hooded man has been lucky getting around. And I am pretty convinced she will meet up with Big Nyms again, so that will dictate who will go where and to whom. That is connected to exactly where she goes after leaving Braavos.

Because she is going to bust out of there and from them eventually.

We will do a Mercy segment one day. But that list is going to keep her from FM permanence too. Has already…she, also like Needle, won’t give the list up.

I think it would be repetitive for her to go to the Riverlands again and be hanging around the BWB. Some don't like her Braavos chapters and keep complaining about when are they going to be over and others didn't like her travelogue which kept going around in circles and she did nothing to influence the plot. I liked her chapters then but I wouldn't like it if it happened again. I don't think there's anything in the Riverlands that could help answer the question of what's her purpose, what did she do that no one else could have, how did she influence the plot since it didn't answer those questions before and there are no major potential targets. We are getting these answers with the other Starks or at least we have an idea but we don't have that with her.

As for disguise if she leaves then it's also possible that she leaves without finishing her training which means without face changing magic. Some think she's going to leave immediately but I don't think that makes much sense since there are still things in Braavos she has to do even the chapter gave hints and the fact that she doesn't have her face and she has no idea how to get it back on her own. I don't agree with the idea that she just won't care about her face and will leave anyways without it (this was proposed in another thread).

Anyways, as for the BWB I think it would be even worse if she started hanging with them as they were her captors Before the Hound snatches her she realizes that they held her captive and her wish to be a Wenda the White Fawn with them can't happen.

ETA: It's possible that there isn't a major reveal until sometime in ADoS. Jon said the longer you hide the sterner the penance and she will be sewing through winter.

We also have the fact that for some reason "Arya" is still going on. It could have just unraveled when Theon and Jeyne escaped but for some reason it didn't.

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I think Arya is heading back to Westeros sooner rather than later. I don't get the impression she's going to stay in Braavos much longer. Easy enough to get her face back, she got it back in between jobs last time.

That night they gave her back the face of Arya Stark.

Two things are drawing her back, Nymeria and Jon Snow. They keep coming up in her story, her dreams and her memories. I always thought when she went back and got Needle, that would be a sign...

Also, at the same time, Jon's story had a significant plot featuring Arya (in the last book). It's not that it was actually Arya, but that his motivation was about his little sister. Motivation is everything.

I think what's helpful at looking at the Riverlands is not just the physical location, but that this was a place where significant things happened to the various players. Connections...

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She got it back from them meaning they had to do it for her. The belief that she is just going to flee immediately after what she did doesn't hold up in that she doesn't have her face, and doesn't know exactly where it is, and even if she did she does not yet have the training to put it back on herself. It was 3 stages of learning first mummery, then glamor, then face changing is last.



Dunsen is possibly going there and

that iron key might allude to the Iron Bank.



Riverlands is a place for connections yes but it did not help her specifically influence the plot. She didn't kill anyone where it would have a major impact and freeing the Northmen was going to happen anyways, and there was a repeated cycle of her getting places too late and not accomplishing what she set out to do. A major critique was also that she used the names on no name characters instead of major ones.



We have Jon who may have connections there. HIs father died there yet he is located somewhere else and has another obvious influence-potential savior. Bran is going to be a greenseer so he's another potential savior. Sansa is in the Vale and LF is there so that's a character that can be taken down which does have plot significance. Rickon has his story of trying to return North where he can be used to rally the North.




There's really nothing in the Riverlands that answers well what in turn will she do that has impact or potential impact. At best there's the Freys but she's not learning mass murder, and has no army, and killing Freys now doesn't really influence the major plot but the subplot and it's a task a secondary or minor character can fulfill. I would hate at the end of the story where what was her significance the answer was she killed some Freys while the others oh they saved the world, they saved the North, they killed someone who actually matters while she killed some Freys no one remembers their name without looking it up.



LS is there but still to the theories of Arya killing her that doesn't influence the plot either. Stopping LS is only stopping her from killing random Freys. In the grand scheme of things LS doesn't matter. There would be no chain reaction that leads to a major plot changes unlike say Tyrion killing Tywin or Cersei killing Robert.



At that point minor characters would be more significant than her and there would be no answer to the question of why he gave her so many chapters and made her a major character and what was it leading up to.



IA that her list is a motivating factor but her list mainly has irrelevant characters on it and she's not going to kill the one relevant character. She already passed on killing Cersei.



A critique on her Braavos chapters was that she is removed from the plot but her travelogue in the Riverlands had no impact on the major plot either.


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To be honest, I have many concerns. I feel and there is a lot of textual evidence for how I envision Arya’s Point A to point Z in the series.



It is the timing and B to Y that I flip flop. I never said I know exactly where she is going and what she is going to do, but a few things for me hold:



Certain things are clear, for me, by Z. Some more evidence than other, some by emphasis, focus, and repetition. Some by reading between the lines or many lines.



She will have Needle again.



She will leave the FM.



She will meet with Jon again, possibly other Starks too.



She will meet up with Gendry again. Hot Pie, I can only hope to hell. That’s on me. I love that guy…



She will meet up with Nymeria again.



I am toying with Jaqen, still not as sure as my stuff above



Eventually Jon is leaving the North. She will meet him again. She is not going up there, until possibly later and even by end of the series. There is enough going on up there with Mance, Stannis, Jon has to recover or whatever the hell happened, Mel is in the way, Selyse, Patchface, Shireen, Boltons, the Northerners, and I give up. I can’t type anymore. There is just too much hanging. There are a bunch of other big problem, issues, and events coming up there. And it will be resolved. Not with her though. But I agree with LeCygne that Jon and Arya will meet again, and the most important thing, is that the motivation by both to do so, their connection and love from the very beginning of book 1, to all their thoughts of each other across several books to 5 means a lot.



I feel very strongly that things have to come to a head and be resolved up there, and her path does not include that until much later possibly. There really is enough going on there without her. I would be dangerous for her up there alone. Jon is is no position to help her, he is very vulnerable right now. And she is not safe with anyone up there right now, hence, look at what was done to Fake Arya? I can't trust anyone up there, even Northerners seeming to emerge as the better guys.



Just my opinion, but they are my beliefs, gut feelings, and there is textual evidence for it.



Now as an aside, gift chapters are very important. But I will leave that out for another time to devote just for that. And to put a spoiler box when the time comes.



I am not worried about her not completing all FM training. Her powers will be her Starkness. She has her warging abilities, her wolf, and her Needle. Every superhero has their abilities and assets, and they are not 100%. Ok, she is not a superhero, but this is Arya. I think she will use what she learned in the FM, but she will not squeeze out every thing possible that they could have taught her. Or be around to put the time in to do so. And I don’t think that means it is the end for her. We saw even Jaqen can be fallible. FM are not Superman. They can get in tight spots too.



But Jon gave her Needle. Very important. She knew what it is like to get rid of a sword for good without blinking. She did it to Joffrey. The minute…the minute that Needle wasn’t permanently disposed of. Meaning, no way of a possible retrieval ever again…I knew...my heart soared. Her FM journey had the clock ticking at that point.



With Needle, Jon gave her survival on the road, a piece of his love for her, and her identity that would always lead her back, when she was ready.



Lyanna was great with swords and skills and many things that the typical female in that World wouldn’t do. All we know is Ned was cool with it and when he sees it in Arya he does support it too. Her father, Rickard, would not let Lyanna run around with a sword.



But I love that Lyanna’s son, Jon Snow, bestows the invaluable Needle on Arya, her neice and likeness, and a relative he loves too. It is a nice piece of writing and lovely, really. Lyanna, might just, through Jon, have given her beloved brother Ned’s beloved daughter a fighting chance.



Jon, when she retrieves Needle, essentially, is going to give Arya her life back, her identity, and her purpose.



It is Jor-el leaving the crystal for Kal-el. One crystal led to everything about himself becoming clear.



Now this is long. So I will leave this one piece for a bit.



I do have something to say about the BWB, and the Riverlands and Arya too, but I want to word it better. It will be short, because they are going to be covered down the road.

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For dirt, dirt in general and the act of throwing it, and funerary stuff...

When throwing dirt, it means you are throwing something away. Land, soil is of value, or important. Maybe in his case his identity of the hound was a big part of his life and who he was. So it could mean that. Or on the other hand, the Hound anger and negative shortcomings had no value, thus "cleaning house" or "throwing out the garbage" of his past life as the Hound.

Firstly, I like this post, thanks for doing this research. The idea of "cleaning house" or "throwing out the garbage" does relate to where Sandor is now.

The act of throwing it means you are losing it, giving it way, tossing it out, what have you.

I already posted that I took it as an insult because it hit their feet. Hence the "throwing dirt" or "mud-slinging."

Yes, the man who thinks so little of knights definitely was 'mud slinging' at them, literally and figuratively.

Man, the "losing ground' expression can be interpreted many ways. Even stretching with "falling away."

Losing ground and falling away, now this is interesting. Could 'the Hound' be losing ground in Sandor's psyche and falling away as a defense mechanism?

And with funerary stuff. Seeing the throwing of dirt on a grave as planting a new seed. A new life. Resurrecting. Emgerging in a new form.

With the Gravedigger, we see him "throwing out the garbage" as he digs the graves and "planting a new seed" and "emerging in a new form" when the dead is buried and the graves are filled in.

OK, I hope that's what this symbolism means any way. :)

Er, the chapter other stuff is going to take longer.

Nice work Bookie!

:bowdown:

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Ok, and I said I would post about how if he was staying on the Isle, things might have been written differently.



Here it is:



Because really, If the plan was to have him at peace and have him want to stay on the Isle, I believe it would have been written very differently, that chapter. And other stuff too.



First off, in general, the two closest men to Arya and Sansa, both make a cameo appearance in book 4, like a reminder to keep an eye on them. That they are still there and not doing too well. Also, the tension in many of the chapters is all the people looking for Arya and Sansa, and the two that care a lot, pop up in the book. They were both left as out of the story in book 3, and one even left for dead. One is all angry, hanging with an Arya lookalike (as Brienne, not so nonchalantly, had come into her thoughts for the readers) working at what is an orphanage, where kids are being brought there because the people he is with are looking for Arya, and Sansa. And the Hound makes his disguised appearance, yet his counterpart, Stranger, is the exact opposite of what EB is telling Brienne, and the mood being forced on us.



Yeah, the counterpart is manic and angry, frustrated and wants out, like when a group of people forcibly try to put a straight jacket on someone in a movie cliché, and they can’t stop them. Stranger seems to be the only one who knows it is not right for him and Sandor. We don’t get conversation from Sandor, but there is a piece of evidence, dirt-throwing, that he might be thinking what his horse is. But EB, might know this too, and might have done some good PR work, and might be pulling Brienne's leg. To send her off on her way thinking that he is dead, he did it so as not to lie exactly, and sending her off the track, while he truly knows Sandor is planning on leaving eventually. They even stopped trying to geld Stranger, I think.



Now I love this. I did some research on ear symbolism. I found it can represent birth and awakening.



So I love that Stranger bites the ear from the brother. Like, you can’t stop Sandor from being who he is, waking up, and getting off this Isle. Not on my watch…



Er, with me too. Quickly, I hope.



And how about more food for thought ear symbolism with Sandor and Stranger:



Ears are our antennae. They pick up thoughts, vibrations and sounds. Some of these you will use to fulfill your expectations of yourself. They also allow you to hear what you want to hear in relation to other people, places and situations. They are part of the guidance system that allows you to hear the truth from within as well as from without.



Oftentimes, you are in situations where other people are speaking about you or to you and this affords you an opportunity to hear another side of your own story. From another perspective you draw people to you, as well as drawing out of them the things they say. You draw it out of them so that you can fulfill certain expectations about yourself. There is never a "thing" done that you do not have a direct influence upon in terms of its creation. There are no accidents, happenings, fate, or circumstances."



When there are problems with the ears, you should ask yourself:



What is it that I don't want to hear?


Who is it that I don't want to listen to?”



So Stranger draws attention to the ear. Hear me out, I want off. We have got to make this happen on our own. Me and my owner, with that stupid gown somehow.



We visit the QI as bystanders, readers…I took it like the cliché when you see a movie and there is a prison, or a character is being trapped, and calls out to some passerby.



“Help me, get me out of here.”



Ancient Egyptians had ear symbols, meaning to hear my prayers.



And this one I love. That it is a symbol of obedience.



So Stranger bites it off. Symbolizing he is not going to be obedient. It is an act of defiance.



So if it was left as it seemed. He is “dead” to Westeros. He never leaves. This Isle is serene and quiet. People take a vow of silence. It is safe and comfortable. A refuge from the war torn Westeros. He is totally happy with staying there to burrow and never come out. He likes it and wishes it.



Ok, Fine. Now if I really thought he was done. All that had to be done was:



Well, let’s rewind. It could have just been left with him dying with Arya. We gave him forgiveness, because with his last, he showed remorse, and made it clear he cared for Sansa. That could have been a moving, but very clean end.



Or he makes it to the Isle, and we see he still has life within him. Hey, R’hllor seemed to say so, as per Beric?



No need to mention Stranger than. His counterpart horse would have been gelded. He'd be doing farm work and at peace too, a vehicle to demonstrate closure for both him and Sandor. He is Sandor’s psyche, he would need to get on board too. But…that isn’t what happened with Stranger.



He would have been fine with it, to show and give some oomph that his owner is fine with it, because Stranger is. He reflects his owner, at all times, there is a lot of evidence for that.



Maybe just to prove it is Sandor, it would have been a quick reference to Stranger. Something like Pod recognizing him from KL, or something else to confirm somehow.



“Yeah, that is is horse…that nutjob one…”



Or Brienne still thinks he is dead. And we get a part where Brienne has left and we see EB talk briefly to Sandor or whatever, just some type of writing where it is made clear to us that it is him, and he is at peace, out of the game, and somehow, that he definitely has no desire to leave.



But…with Stranger acting up on the Isle, I like to think of it as this.



Martin is giving us a message. It is this:



So, have you been paying attention now, readers? Are you paying attention to what I have been trying to tell you throughout the entire series so far? That the connection between a person and their animal is strong and symbiotic, and that they both are and know their owner, very well. They reflect their feelings. They are their avatar, an extension of themselves.



So, In a soft, quite, peaceful environment with a silent non- expressive Sandor…well, except for the dirt and the horse…



I will take it one step further.



I think we just got what is really going on in his mind internally through his horse.



It is like an animal counterpart pop quiz. You know those dating game shows when it tests how well you know your partner.



And Stranger is a sidekick too. I know Robin has rescued Batman before.



Now about the motivation for the gelding… I won’t like it if I find out it was an attempted sucker punch, or that they tried to do it without informing Sandor, behind his back. But we won’t know that.



They know he is difficult. Did they try to geld him without Sandor? We don’t know, but I think, he wouldn’t want that for his horse. WE don’t know if it was suggested, forced, or they didn’t tell him. Or they did tell him? Or pulled the crap that he was sleeping, out cold, or resting…and that thought it best for his horse.



He could even be soured on them because of that. Pissed. We don’t know.



But someow I don’t think he was okay with it.



For humor, a part of me always pictured Sandor thinking, knowing Stranger could defend himself and that it was NOT going to happen.



Ok, guys. You want to try and geld him. Go right ahead…best of luck to you!



And he stands back with arms folded knowing his horse would be fine.



So the horse in turmoil might show his owner is, that he wants to get back out there.



Or Stranger knows what is best for him before he does.



Or because it is a cliffhanger, we are gifted with hope, which is how I took it, that Sandor is making like a tree, but when the time is ripe he is out of there, and Stranger is just the teaser trailer to the movie coming up.



Healing. So many literary characters think they want something and don’t. They have someone or people that were trying to help and then think that means you have to totally follow their program.



He doesn’t do personal training programs someone doles out to him. He never like it. Then it is as bad as if he went along with the knight or kg program.



Check in and check out. That is my take on the QI for both of them. Well, it certainly seems that it is what Stranger wants.



In a way I think of Dr. Frankenstein and Frankenstein. Mold you, but he wasn’t prepared for the fall out. He couldn’t control the monster and it wanted self-autonomy.



And I don’t mean EB is evil. But I could see the octopus tendencies if they emerged clearer. Or I could be wrong. He was so thorough with Brienne, he sounds like he could be a self-rigtheous pain in the ass, that only sees things his way, and Stranger did not fall for this QI business from day one. I am holding out and sticking with that EB talked to Sandor, is harboring him until he leaves, and he can go with no strings attached, because EB will understand. I hope.



Stanger has to be pissed. He only went because Sandor was injured and did what he was told. Sandor had to be near him or guide him somehow. I am sure he didn’t think they would be staying there or people would try to mess with him. Er, his nuts.



Now we don’t know EB that well, so some of this is worst case turnout scenarios. I will be prepared just in case.



He can’t stop Sandor. He can plead with him, he can try to change his mind.



But ultimately when he goes, he is going to go.



And that upped the ante on the Isle. When he goes, he is going back to life and the real world with problems.



His time on the isle changed him, it did not change anything on the outside in Westeros.



It won’t be easy. He is going to have problems. People are looking for him for various reasons. He deserted Joff and KL and Lannister service, he was the last one with Arya and had taken her, and now, due to the helm, people think he is responsible for atrocities outside too.



So the helm getting taken and causing more problems was a great piece of writing, it just made more tension for him when he gets out.


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Lyanna was great with swords and skills and many things that the typical female in that World wouldn’t do. All we know is Ned was cool with it and when he sees it in Arya he does support it too. Her father, Rickard, would not let Lyanna run around with a sword.

But I love that Lyanna’s son, Jon Snow, bestows the invaluable Needle on Arya, her neice and likeness, and a relative he loves too. It is a nice piece of writing and lovely, really. Lyanna, might just, through Jon, have given her beloved brother Ned’s beloved daughter a fighting chance.

Jon, when she retrieves Needle, essentially, is going to give Arya her life back, her identity, and her purpose.

I love the way you put this. I am getting teary just reading it. Something about those two, Jon and Arya, and this shows Lyanna is still a part of it all. That's just beautiful.

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So the helm getting taken and causing more problems was a great piece of writing, it just made more tension for him when he gets out.

I just don't trust the Elder Brother for some reason. Sandor is stuck staying with the EB, because the EB left the helm on the grave. Sansa is stuck with LF because LF set her up for regicide. The former was presumably unintentional, the latter most certainly intentional.

How to get around it, that's the question. They both have the same problem. Cersei wants them dead. They both are undercover, with false identities. Looking at what GRRM said again, the Hound is dead, but we know there's the gravedigger (I wonder what they are calling him?) Sansa may be dead, but there's Alayne.

Back to Brienne and Gendry, right now Gendry is no longer associated with the Bull helm, and he seems relatively free to move around. But if Brienne tells someone who he is, other than Gendry himself, that may no longer be the case. There's that suspense, too.

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But I love that Lyanna’s son, Jon Snow, bestows the invaluable Needle on Arya, her neice and likeness, and a relative he loves too. It is a nice piece of writing and lovely, really. Lyanna, might just, through Jon, have given her beloved brother Ned’s beloved daughter a fighting chance.

I love the way you put this. I am getting teary just reading it. Something about those two, Jon and Arya, and this shows Lyanna is still a part of it all. That's just beautiful.

Yes, this was very beautiful. Thank you.

I just don't trust the Elder Brother for some reason. Sandor is stuck staying with the EB, because the EB left the helm on the grave. Sansa is stuck with LF because LF set her up for regicide. The former was presumably unintentional, the latter most certainly intentional.

How to get around it, that's the question. They both have the same problem. Cersei wants them dead. They both are undercover, with false identities. Looking at what GRRM said again, the Hound is dead, but we know there's the gravedigger (I wonder what they are calling him?) Sansa may be dead, but there's Alayne.

Back to Brienne and Gendry, right now Gendry is no longer associated with the Bull helm, and he seems relatively free to move around. But if Brienne tells someone who he is, other than Gendry himself, that may no longer be the case. There's that suspense, too.

Agree with this. Shucking the false identities will be hard, but it will be done. Just like Arya will no longer be "No one."

Ah, booknerd2! I had to have dial-a-dork emotional counseling too! I was not spoiled, but told “keep reading.” I did, begrudgingly at first. And I never realized I’d have to read two more books and still not have a real Sandor as Sandor sighting yet. But, I believe it will happen. As said, no reason to have that whole AFfC chapter if that was not the case, nor have Stranger kicking to get off the Isle.

Now, just for my own clarification, I don’t think the Hound was a stalker. GRRM had to have ways of throwing them together, so he happened to be there when Sansa was running down the serpentine steps. Other than that, their encounters happen in the course of the events at court; he would have attended the feast after the tourney, he was in the bailey when Sansa was beaten because he escorted her there, warning her beforehand, he attended Joff’s name day tourney in the royal box, where he would have been stationed, was out and about the day of the riots doing his KG duty, and before the battle of Blackwater, Sansa ran into him, not the other way around. Therefore, not a stalker.

Also, I don’t view him as an alcoholic – I know this wasn't said specifically – but I don’t see any reason he’d need to quit. Just not do the 'heavy, quick drinking' he did at the Crossroads with Arya. The only times he was drunk in KL was on the night he ran into Sansa on the serpentine steps, when he says he was off duty, and after facing fire in the battle after going out three times. And that he drank heavily enough after that which would result in passing out against a tree (nice foreshadowing on GRRM’s part) is understandable to me, he would’ve still been freaked out about the fire, about leaving Sansa, and about what the hell he might do next.

What’s next for Sandor Clegane? These are what I see as possibilities:

1. Still needs to wear the robe for a while. Too identifiable, he’ll know that, though we knows he’s a self-professed fraud hater. But going into TWoW many major characters in AFfC/ADwD are playing a false part. Whoever’s POV chapter he ends up in will either themselves identify him or see him identified by another character. But no worries, booknerd2, he’ll lose the robe soon enough.

2. When he next meets Sansa (I don’t believe in an ‘if’ on this one), he will be silent at first, I’d say. And I am building this off of the ‘why will he not speak to me’ part she asks when she has her meet and greet with Ser Ilyn (and the Hound). As a writer, I think GRRM would note that in all of their past exchanges, it’s Sandor who’s telling stories to the stories girl, and not the other way around. It would be progressive if Sansa was the one who spoke first and had a story of her own to tell.

3. I’ve wondered if Sandor would notice any more ‘acceptance’ from Sansa, when they meet and I’ve decided that the plentiful “look at me” moments he demands are in the past. I think he’ll notice. He seems to have a sixth ‘Sansa’ sense, (for instance, his callous ‘remember the dance he did’ comment about Ned was, in fact, similar to how she remembered it when thinking of it previously), so I think he will do the double, triple take at this new sense of acceptance from her.

4. What with GRRM’s recent comments about

Jeyne Westerling in the prologue of TWoW, I think it’s possible that Jeyne ends up on the QI and that she will be the woman who I think has been foreshadowed will die there. If that is the case, then Sandor would be present for the prologue chapter. Big wish on my part.

5. The changes I would expect to see in Sandor would be more respect for life (all that burying has to have some purpose/effect) and an initial plan of some sort which he did not have (reclaim Clegane Keep?, take part in the plan of whoever the Elder Brother really is?, look for Arya or Sansa?). Sandor’s character needs to come into his ‘own’ – he needs to fully embody the concept of his name which he now seems to ‘own’ more than “the Hound”, which has become a name others' own, while character’s like Jaime begin to call him “Sandor.” In Armageddon Rag, GRRM calls out the meaning of “Alexander” – protector of man. And that reference, that theme, becomes important in the end. Sandor Clegane needs to become a protector of men. He has been so far, but not successfully. Otherwise, GRRM would have chosen a different name for the character, and not a near match of the lead character (Sander) in the book he wrote right before GoT – the one that flopped financially and led him to Hollywood before coming back to writing. Building to a successful protector of man would be a critical part of his character development and a part of the climax of his role in the story, in my opinion.

6. The Hound, to me, is the “truth” of the novels. Sometimes he’s aware of his truths, “sharp steel and strong arms”, and sometimes he’s not, “your uncle’s bloody wedding.” It’s funny that when most of the main characters step out in their false identities in AFfC/ADwD, the “truth” of the novels has gone missing. It’s been a fascination of mine that when the Hound says to Sansa, “a siege, a burning tower, an enemy with a torch. One fool asked if it was dragonsbreath”, that he may have unknowingly identified each of his turning points in the novels – a siege (Blackwater) and an enemy with a torch (Beric and his flaming sword) – may have been alluded to by the Hound back in GoT. Are the burning tower or dragonsbreath coming some day?

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No more fire. He was burned by fire, then there were two subsequent encounters with fire that are full of meaning, for Sandor and his stories with Sansa and Arya. Rule of three.

In a list like that, the author wouldn't mix up literal and figurative; a siege is a siege, but a sword is not a torch. And his biggest turning point was nearly dying on the Trident, and there was no fire, nor fear of fire, and that's not on that list.

It would not be meaningful for a list of wrong reasons - that people who meant nothing to him and didn't understand him came up with - to come true. (That is not meaningful and overly repetitive.)

It would be meaningful for him to tell the real reason to someone who does mean something to him and does understand him. That's Sansa. That's about helping each other and the trust that has developed between them.

Also, here's the payoff, where they both understand:

I wish the Hound were here. The night of the battle, Sandor Clegane had come to her chambers to take her from the city, but Sansa had refused. Sometimes she lay awake at night, wondering if she'd been wise. She had his stained white cloak hidden in a cedar chest beneath her summer silks. She could not say why she'd kept it. The Hound had turned craven, she heard it said; at the height of the battle, he got so drunk the Imp had to take his men. But Sansa understood. She knew the secret of his burned face. It was only the fire he feared. That night, the wildfire had set the river itself ablaze, and filled the very air with green flame. Even in the castle, Sansa had been afraid. Outside... she could scarcely imagine it.

"Please," Sandor Clegane rasped, cradling his arm. "I'm burned. Help me. Someone. Help me." He was crying. "Please."

Arya looked at him in astonishment. He's crying like a little baby, she thought...

"You want me dead that bad? Then do it, wolf girl. Shove it in. It's cleaner than fire." Clegane tried to stand, but as he moved a piece of burned flesh sloughed right off his arm, and his knees went out from under him...

His arm, Arya thought, and his face.

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Yes, this was very beautiful. Thank you.

Agree with this. Shucking the false identities will be hard, but it will be done. Just like Arya will no longer be "No one."

Ah, booknerd2! I had to have dial-a-dork emotional counseling too! I was not spoiled, but told “keep reading.” I did, begrudgingly at first. And I never realized I’d have to read two more books and still not have a real Sandor as Sandor sighting yet. But, I believe it will happen. As said, no reason to have that whole AFfC chapter if that was not the case, nor have Stranger kicking to get off the Isle.

Now, just for my own clarification, I don’t think the Hound was a stalker. GRRM had to have ways of throwing them together, so he happened to be there when Sansa was running down the serpentine steps. Other than that, their encounters happen in the course of the events at court; he would have attended the feast after the tourney, he was in the bailey when Sansa was beaten because he escorted her there, warning her beforehand, he attended Joff’s name day tourney in the royal box, where he would have been stationed, was out and about the day of the riots doing his KG duty, and before the battle of Blackwater, Sansa ran into him, not the other way around. Therefore, not a stalker.

Also, I don’t view him as an alcoholic – I know this wasn't said specifically – but I don’t see any reason he’d need to quit. Just not do the 'heavy, quick drinking' he did at the Crossroads with Arya. The only times he was drunk in KL was on the night he ran into Sansa on the serpentine steps, when he says he was off duty, and after facing fire in the battle after going out three times. And that he drank heavily enough after that which would result in passing out against a tree (nice foreshadowing on GRRM’s part) is understandable to me, he would’ve still been freaked out about the fire, about leaving Sansa, and about what the hell he might do next.

What’s next for Sandor Clegane? These are what I see as possibilities:

1. Still needs to wear the robe for a while. Too identifiable, he’ll know that, though we knows he’s a self-professed fraud hater. But going into TWoW many major characters in AFfC/ADwD are playing a false part. Whoever’s POV chapter he ends up in will either themselves identify him or see him identified by another character. But no worries, booknerd2, he’ll lose the robe soon enough.

2. When he next meets Sansa (I don’t believe in an ‘if’ on this one), he will be silent at first, I’d say. And I am building this off of the ‘why will he not speak to me’ part she asks when she has her meet and greet with Ser Ilyn (and the Hound). As a writer, I think GRRM would note that in all of their past exchanges, it’s Sandor who’s telling stories to the stories girl, and not the other way around. It would be progressive if Sansa was the one who spoke first and had a story of her own to tell.

3. I’ve wondered if Sandor would notice any more ‘acceptance’ from Sansa, when they meet and I’ve decided that the plentiful “look at me” moments he demands are in the past. I think he’ll notice. He seems to have a sixth ‘Sansa’ sense, (for instance, his callous ‘remember the dance he did’ comment about Ned was, in fact, similar to how she remembered it when thinking of it previously), so I think he will do the double, triple take at this new sense of acceptance from her.

4. What with GRRM’s recent comments about

Jeyne Westerling in the prologue of TWoW, I think it’s possible that Jeyne ends up on the QI and that she will be the woman who I think has been foreshadowed will die there. If that is the case, then Sandor would be present for the prologue chapter. Big wish on my part.

5. The changes I would expect to see in Sandor would be more respect for life (all that burying has to have some purpose/effect) and an initial plan of some sort which he did not have (reclaim Clegane Keep?, take part in the plan of whoever the Elder Brother really is?, look for Arya or Sansa?). Sandor’s character needs to come into his ‘own’ – he needs to fully embody the concept of his name which he now seems to ‘own’ more than “the Hound”, which has become a name others' own, while character’s like Jaime begin to call him “Sandor.” In Armageddon Rag, GRRM calls out the meaning of “Alexander” – protector of man. And that reference, that theme, becomes important in the end. Sandor Clegane needs to become a protector of men. He has been so far, but not successfully. Otherwise, GRRM would have chosen a different name for the character, and not a near match of the lead character (Sander) in the book he wrote right before GoT – the one that flopped financially and led him to Hollywood before coming back to writing. Building to a successful protector of man would be a critical part of his character development and a part of the climax of his role in the story, in my opinion.

6. The Hound, to me, is the “truth” of the novels. Sometimes he’s aware of his truths, “sharp steel and strong arms”, and sometimes he’s not, “your uncle’s bloody wedding.” It’s funny that when most of the main characters step out in their false identities in AFfC/ADwD, the “truth” of the novels has gone missing. It’s been a fascination of mine that when the Hound says to Sansa, “a siege, a burning tower, an enemy with a torch. One fool asked if it was dragonsbreath”, that he may have unknowingly identified each of his turning points in the novels – a siege (Blackwater) and an enemy with a torch (Beric and his flaming sword) – may have been alluded to by the Hound back in GoT. Are the burning tower or dragonsbreath coming some day?

Whoah…this was wonderful.

Thank you for pointing out amazing stuff that I never noted.

1. I feel he is still on the QI mostly. But let me get your take on this, only if you'd like, of course. I did see an interesting case made for the possibility that we don't know but that he left QI already. How do you feel about that? I flip flop with the QI and his leaving bit, when, how, why, where to, what condition he will be in, EB's cutting the strings or pulling some crap, and of course, how long poor Stranger can take much more of this.

2. Totally agree and can see that. It will show he has learned and progressed. That old schtick of blurting out, being awkward, imposing words and will and every thought in your head, though, it is him, will still be there. When it really counts, and in the right situation/conversation, but being silent, observing, and presenting himself in other ways, more positive, maybe even more effective, well, that will now be there too. And yeah, she is going to have to reach out too and maybe be more out there. And it looks like she is on her way already.

What I want to say is, just better delivery period on his part. I feel I can articulate #2 better.

3. Totally agree. And we were shown it. We were prepped with her thoughts of him, the unkiss, and later stuff in the series. Some has to come from her, and it will.

4. Blown away. Never considered that. Other things but not that. It is so new and fresh of a thought for me, I have nothing to say. I have to let it marinate and wrap my brain around it, and come back to it.

5. Ditto.

6. Ditto. And I never thought of the quotes that way. Wonderful, and like 4, I have to think about that. So new to me.

Oh, and stalking and drinking. There were one or two events where I felt he was looking for her. Even at the Guard Dog appearances he made on duty with Joff, oh, he had to be there, he was on company time, but he made sure to talk to her too. Like approaching her with Lady, the night he was drunk, etc. I was cracking jokes too, and I just want to say I didn't mean it like a bad thing. Just that he cares for her and always wondered how many times he was on the brain and he sought her out.

Same with the drinking. I could have worded it better. Could have gone bad. Actually, I thought it did and he died because of it. I take it was a warning, that he almost once died because of it. The tavern brawl with Arya. Not something I think he will do again, but he was upset, like Blackwater, and hearing of Sansa. He does it, and those were two that may have caused him harm. The only thing that will slow his skills and make him vulnerable, because he is a strong, smart, and skilled fighter. Drinking a lot to fast, not good for him, in crucial situations.

It wasn’t clear, and I feel I could have elaborated.

Oh, he Is not Dontos, that is for damn sure.

But for him, in very serious situations regarding split second decision making – it is not good. It has caused him to not be on his game and not in tip top form. It is one of the reasons that Sansa might have not gone with him. She saw how he was and wouldn’t take him seriously in a way. And that might have been the dumb reason for the knife part. He might have second guessed doing that and scaring her.

Thank you, this post was excellent.

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Well, that was a very unusual circumstance for a man who had nearly been burned alive as a child. The world was on fire that night. Sansa looked back and thought this:

The Hound had turned craven, she heard it said; at the height of the battle, he got so drunk the Imp had to take his men. But Sansa understood. She knew the secret of his burned face. It was only the fire he feared. That night, the wildfire had set the river itself ablaze, and filled the very air with green flame. Even in the castle, Sansa had been afraid. Outside... she could scarcely imagine it.

GRRM talking about the script he wrote for the show:

There was a line in the script that was cut unfortunately where Sansa says to him well, how are you going to get out of the city, there are guards at all the gates. And he draws his sword and says, "I'm going to get out with this and no man is going to stop me," and then he sort of hesitates and says, "unless he's on fire." I was sorry to lose that line, I really liked that little moment which emphasized the whole fire thing here.

The official app:

During the Battle of the Blackwater, Clegane leads a force attempting to hold the King's Gate, but is unable to fulfill his duties due to his fear of the burning wildfire raging on the river and on the docks. Instead, he finds his way to Sansa Stark's chambers, where he forces her to sing him a song while trying to work up the courage to take her with him out of the city. Her fear of him -- as well as her song -- makes him leave without her.

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I love the way you put this. I am getting teary just reading it. Something about those two, Jon and Arya, and this shows Lyanna is still a part of it all. That's just beautiful.

Honestly, I got emotional typing it too. It just flew out from somewhere. Needle beats through my mind like a mantra.

There is something just very all-important about it. In books and show it got a lot of face time.

This is a bit long because you brought up a bunch of stuff in both posts.

Much is made of Jon (very important character) giving it to her. A smith makes it, creates something crucial to her, and her best bud for a time was a smith. Her father discovers it, and gives her the acceptance from a father that Lyanna didn’t get. And, Ned, her father puts the plug in the outlet for her. To better use this gift, that Jon, who he once protected for his sister gave his daughter to always protect her, and he gets someone, Syrio, to instruct her.

Needle is an issue when travelling with Yoren and on the road later. It is taken from her and found again. It is like the light saber, Harry’s wand, other literature and legendary objects that are special and demand notice.

I will love if Needle got so much face time because George laid the tracks for us, knowing early on, that it is what gets her out of the FM, and to find herself again.

Needle was taken from her. Not voluntarily, but Needle finds his way back to her. But now it is her turn. She put Needle away a bit. It is up to her to go to Needle this time and return the favor.

For the second post: Totally, and they share that same individual goal. How to throw off the yoke of outside influence and manipulation.

How to be free and attain personal freedom again is something they both have to deal with. Er, Stranger too. Lady, was decimated by it. Even all the Starks, and Jon and his present situation.

And Bran and Rickon have to make sure who to trust too, and watch the roads they are on.

So the big question: how to cut the strings from the puppet masters of the series?

I think of it this way. I even would like to word some of this better. But I thought of it like this, because it popped up in my head out of nowhere.

Stranger is so far fighting what seems like a losing battle. He has to convince Sandor. He can’t go without him. But until then he is going to bite and tear at the strings that bind them, and try to cut at them, for both him and Sandor. And it is upsetting, because the damn horse is trying so hard, and getting resistance.

Arya, will get to the point, that with Needle, she is going to slash right through those strings and free herself. Needle, Jon, and Nymeria may help even further down the road. And my opinion too, that the allies, the good ones, can help too, Gendry being one. So few, but so formidable for her.

Sansa is going to use her best qualities and her development of strategy, her brain, and skills she learned observing players, and hard lessons. She has seen the worst of people, yet she will not become them truly. Only for good and to help herself and others out, only to defend and free herself. She is still loving, caring and sympathetic to others. She will do it differently from the rest. Not physically nor thorough external weaponry. Hers, like Bran, will come from within. She is going to make like a maze and forge paths and plans and take all the strings and knot them in one fell swoop. She will be the trap you don’t expect and can’t see, until you are hanging upside down by your feet and incapacitated and ultimately at her mercy. We already have hints that she is going to be able to do this to LF and that it has started. She will be his downfall and it won’t seem like it until it is too late. She will stop them from pulling stings and for her to free herself from her situation. She doesn’t need to outright touch the puppet masters, or the strings, she will not them unfoil and tangle themselves. Then she will hold in her hand one big knot or ball of string, that won’t budge.

Rickon is strong and unruly. He will just fight the puppet masters. No puppet masters. Not the stings to pull him. He will go more after the masters than the strings. He will throw them off him.

Bran has the edge and powerful magic and abilities. He will just bypass everything, making the masters and strings, relatively useless. No matter how hard they pull, they can’t control him. He has many upper hands.

Poor Robb walked right into it and was trapped. Grey Wind tried to warn him. Damn it…it still hurts.

I like to think that some of them got a bit from like Uncle Brandon too, the fight and fierceness in them – Jon, Rickon, and Arya.

Jon will pull back and make the strings go the way he wants them with stubbornness and tenacity. He will end up holding them. Surely, most around him think he is down, but he isn’t.

Oh, and with helms that are missing. Funny that it is the too closest to Arya and Sansa. But I have written about that before. There identities are being taken, so new ones can emerge? I hope this is it.

Oh, Christ, this is tearing material too…

Regarding Lyanna, Jon, Ned, and Arya again...

That for all this poor girl’s worries on her death bed and before. Most recently for her, her family, all that had happened to them and anyone and everything involved, and surely getting to see Ned one more time... and the worst of all: What is going to happen to your baby son? You will not be around and it is out of your control.

That her neice, loved and was closest to Jon. Surely, somewhere she is terribly grateful to her likeness, Arya. Jon had someone growing up, some love and Stark connection when the fall out of being a bastard in that world fell on him, and it helped create the great man he was and the great things he is going to do. Like maybe help save the world.

Needle was the least that could be done for Arya. Lyanna and Jon made it happen, Ned provided the tools to use it.

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Lyanna dying is so sad, she lost her love, and had to say goodbye to her baby, too. That's just unbearably sad. The rose petals in her hand, promise me, Ned. No wonder he was haunted. That's just too sad...

He could still hear her at times. Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave his word, the fear had gone out of his sister’s eyes.

So yeah, some good to come of this would be nice...

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But for him, in very serious situations regarding split second decision making – it is not good. It has caused him to not be on his game and not in tip top form. It is one of the reasons that Sansa might have not gone with him.

Agree absolutely, the drinking led to the Hound "not on his game," definitely.

As for the QI and whether Sandor is still there – I flip flop on this too. I think that the women’s cottages come into play there and it was such a big deal that Pod not stay with Brienne in one. Therefore, a woman needs to come to stay there again, imo. The whole place has gotten way too much description. What was with the gravedigger serving food? Just so the reader sees the limp again? What about the high harp that was there that someone was playing? Songs? Music? Who plays the high harp in the series? Sansa. What about the renowned cider? The brothers go out and sell that at markets. So if Sandor leaves, I’m going with it’s brief and he comes back and there’s some kind of goings on there and then he leaves for good.

The gravedigger throwing dirt – Septon Meribald "could have gotten a mouthful" we’re told. Having grave dirt thrown on you by a gravedigger is not a good omen, I’d say.

Stranger being there is good news. His spirits we’ve addressed. But the Elder Brother says that he was looking for his horse when he got his ‘fatal’ injury. He needed the horse to be a knight. Sandor still has his despite all that must have taken to get him there. The EB says, “The Smith gave men horses to help them in their labors.” Sandor needs Stranger to help him in his ‘labor’ and to continue being a knight, er, not-a-ser, 'knight.'

Agree that the Hound was looking out for Sansa in KL. He is concerned and when they are together, even in court settings, he goes out of his way to notice or help or just wave from the back of the box. And my sincere interest in Sandor Clegane came at the moment of the very first Sansa description of "almost gently." That stood out for me, I marked it down in my head because that is a description for a 'romantic lead character'; then she uses it over and over.

Ah, Le Cygne, no fire. I want it to be the case, but I am fascinated by it and wonder about it. And true, the big turning point was the fight and almost dying and there was no fire there, just hot, boiling wine. However, Sansa knowing about his burning by Gregor and not revealing this secret begs to have some future impact on the story. Perhaps Sansa saves Sandor later on. At a minimum, it seems very likely that she will defend him to someone in TWoW.

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snip

Very good and interesting post. If you wouldn't mind though, I'd like a clarification. You wrote that Jon will be eventually leaving the North. What did you mean exactly? What do you see him doing?

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