Jon and Mance's relationship is completely ridiculous

[Tiliana]

Okay so after some pondering and rereading of the text I just have to say that I find the relationship between Jon and Mance to just be absurd (and that's an understatement)

First we have their initial meeting in which Jon tells Mance that he turned his cloak because he was seated at the bastard table, or just general bastard resentment. What relevance does this have to desertion? He decided to leave an egalitarian organization because he was of a lower class than the top 1%? Can someone explain how this makes any sense? Or why someone would actually believe this? What is telling is that Jon thinks that this is the only thing he would believe, which is a statement of Jon's intelligence more than anything else

Then there is the "Fist fiasco" as I like to call it, where Jon is caught in a lie he told. So we have a very flimsy story as to why Jon deserted, as well as Jon being shown to be unfaithful to the wildling cause. Then if this isn't enough grounds for killing Jon, Jon tries to draw his sword and attack Mance. Seriously, why would anyone tolerate this? Especially someone who has gathered the wildling clans, and is thus supposed to be reasonably intelligent. But the incredulity of it all doesn't end there

When Mance and Jon reunite, Jon has already betrayed the wildling cause (what a surprise!) and he is given a warm welcome by not only Mance, but Tormund as well. He is sat down and treated not like a liar and a traitor but as someone who strayed from Mance's liking a bit. Why exactly does Mance still like him anyways? We'll never get the answer to that I'm guessing. But the absolute worst part is that he is let into their tent with a sword!

So lets recap: Jon joined the wildlings because being a bastard sucks, lied to Mance right off the bat, drew his sword against him, betrayed him earnest, and is now let into his tent with a weapon. WTF?

Then we have Stannis' charge coming, of which Mance has to ask if Jon is behind. While Jon is not actually behind it, any intelligent person would immediately come to the conclusion that the compulsive liar and traitor has now engineered an ambush. Why does he have to ask that at all? And he makes no move to detain Jon, or anything

The relationship between these two characters really tests my ability to suspend disbelief, does anyone else feel the same way?

[WinterRaven]

Yeah I agree that Jon's reason for desertion in the books isn't really all that good. The show did it better when they said he deserted because Mormont knew about the White Walker baby thing.

[Maid So Fair]

It basically boils down to the fact that Jon is more valuable as a self-confessed traitor than a corpse. Mance has very little to lose by keeping Jon alive since even if he somehow escapes (very unlikely), the NW either already knows or will find out soon enough they are under attack. While Jon is alive, they can get valuable information out of him. He can't get away with lying about everything. They eventually develop a relationship of mutual grudging respect, being two honourable men who find themselves fighting on the opposing sides.

The bastard explanation is a perfectly reasonable one - while the trueborn sons get the spotlight, the titles and the wealth, Jon is exciled to freeze at a Wall for the rest of his life. We know that it was Jon who chose this, but Mance does not necessarily know this and it's an easy tale to spin. Even if he did, he himself became disenchanted with the NW and their absurd rules so it's easy to see how Jon might as well. A bright and skilled young man hoping to win glory in battle and fall in love and LIVE? Inconceivable! He goes out of his way to find out why Mance deserted so he can pick something the man would relate to and he hears enough to know that a generic reason won't be believed so he chooses something deeply personal. He's basically saying he's looking for a chance to prove himself

Not telling Mance about the Fist is a lie, but it is an honourable one and it goes back to Mance having been in the NW. We see Mance still respects Qhorin, even after all these years of being enemies. He once had friends in the NW, too. There's a difference between turning your cloak or disagreeing with the NW's mission and directly betraying your friends. He only tries to draw the sword because he believes he's about to die, which is not unreasonable, and we also know that Mance is more than capable of beating Jon at this stage. He might not be convinced of Jon's loyalty, but there's little Jon can do while in the middle of the camp under guard and he can prove useful later. He also probably believed that even if Jon wasn't 100% committed at this stage, he might become so later on under Ygritte's influence. This actually almost occurs.

We already know that Mance is perfectly capable of respecting the enemies he considers honourable. Jon and the NW have fought fiercely and honourably against very high odds and Mance is a kind of man that would respect that and not take a desertion personally. The wildlings also respect cunning, intelligence and strength, qualities that Jon has. And why be petty when the only reasonable conclusion is to believe that Jon basically fled to die with his brothers?

[sj4iy]

Yeah I agree that Jon's reason for desertion in the books isn't really all that good. The show did it better when they said he deserted because Mormont knew about the White Walker baby thing.

I enjoyed that version myself. It was perfect. Can't say I ever really understood his reason in the books.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Maybe Mance never actually believed him but he rather kept him close than letting him go with information about them to the Watch or whoever could have helped them. Also, Mance is no idiot. He has proven to be capable and smart. There was so much he could have found out from Jon, even if he didn't speak it aloud, and he liked him for being smart as well.

[alienarea]

Okay so after some pondering and rereading of the text I just have to say that I find the relationship between Jon and Mance to just be absurd (and that's an understatement)

First we have their initial meeting in which Jon tells Mance that he turned his cloak because he was seated at the bastard table, or just general bastard resentment. What relevance does this have to desertion? He decided to leave an egalitarian organization because he was of a lower class than the top 1%? Can someone explain how this makes any sense? Or why someone would actually believe this? What is telling is that Jon thinks that this is the only thing he would believe, which is a statement of Jon's intelligence more than anything else

Then there is the "Fist fiasco" as I like to call it, where Jon is caught in a lie he told. So we have a very flimsy story as to why Jon deserted, as well as Jon being shown to be unfaithful to the wildling cause. Then if this isn't enough grounds for killing Jon, Jon tries to draw his sword and attack Mance. Seriously, why would anyone tolerate this? Especially someone who has gathered the wildling clans, and is thus supposed to be reasonably intelligent. But the incredulity of it all doesn't end there

When Mance and Jon reunite, Jon has already betrayed the wildling cause (what a surprise!) and he is given a warm welcome by not only Mance, but Tormund as well. He is sat down and treated not like a liar and a traitor but as someone who strayed from Mance's liking a bit. Why exactly does Mance still like him anyways? We'll never get the answer to that I'm guessing. But the absolute worst part is that he is let into their tent with a sword!

So lets recap: Jon joined the wildlings because being a bastard sucks, lied to Mance right off the bat, drew his sword against him, betrayed him earnest, and is now let into his tent with a weapon. WTF?

Then we have Stannis' charge coming, of which Mance has to ask if Jon is behind. While Jon is not actually behind it, any intelligent person would immediately come to the conclusion that the compulsive liar and traitor has now engineered an ambush. Why does he have to ask that at all? And he makes no move to detain Jon, or anything

The relationship between these two characters really tests my ability to suspend disbelief, does anyone else feel the same way?

I can only quote from Macbeth: "It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing."

[James Steller]

You know, it's one thing for a man to betray an inferior fighting force and join the obvious winners, but quite another to reveal that you were fighting for the underdogs all along by leading them in a near suicidal stand against your massive army. I can't find it hard to imagine Mance would have some respect for Jon. Jon could have stayed on the obvious winning side but he stuck by his ideals even when faced with insurmountable odds.

[sj4iy]

Maybe Mance never actually believed him but he rather kept him close than letting him go with information about them to the Watch or whoever could have helped them. Also, Mance is no idiot. He has proven to be capable and smart. There was so much he could have found out from Jon, even if he didn't speak it aloud, and he liked him for being smart as well.

Eh, I don't think book Mance was nearly as smart as people made him out to be. The way he handles the attack on the Wall is utterly ridiculous. Waiting the southern raiders to attack first was dumb. Not throwing everything he had at the Wall was dumb. Naming off about 5 other viable plans for attacking the Wall but not doing any of them was REALLY dumb. Show Mance was much smarter, IMO.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Eh, I don't think book Mance was nearly as smart as people made him out to be. The way he handles the attack on the Wall is utterly ridiculous. Waiting the southern raiders to attack first was dumb. Not throwing everything he had at the Wall was dumb. Naming off about 5 other viable plans for attacking the Wall but not doing any of them was REALLY dumb. Show Mance was much smarter, IMO.

That's not being dumb, that is being uneducated.

Remember, Mance is not part of the nobility, nor did he ever take part in any military operation beyond about a dozen rangers. The whole stuff is way beyond his knowledge and that of any other Wildling.

[sj4iy]

That's not being dumb, that is being uneducated.

Remember, Mance is not part of the nobility, nor did he ever take part in any military operation beyond about a dozen rangers. The whole stuff is way beyond his knowledge and that of any other Wildling.

Then why does everyone in the book praise him like he's some sort of military genius?

But that's not even what I mean. I mean that Mance has plans...he just doesn't implement them for no discernible reason at all.

Take this part in particular:

Mance ran a hand along the curve of the great horn. “No man goes hunting with only one arrow in his quiver,” he said. “I had hoped that Styr and Jarl would take your brothers unawares, and open the gate for us. I drew your garrison away with feints and raids and secondary attacks. Bowen Marsh swallowed that lure as I knew he would, but your band of cripples and orphans proved to be more stubborn than anticipated. Don’t think you’ve stopped us, though. The truth is, you are too few and we are too many. I could continue the attack here and still send ten thousand men to cross the Bay of Seals on rafts and take Eastwatch from the rear. I could storm the Shadow Tower too, I know the approaches as well as any man alive. I could send men and mammoths to dig out the gates at the castles you’ve abandoned, all of them at once.”

“Why don’t you, then?” Jon could have drawn Longclaw then, but he wanted to hear what the wildling had to say.

“Blood,” said Mance Rayder. “I’d win in the end, yes, but you’d bleed me, and my people have bled enough.”

“Your losses haven’t been that heavy.”

“Not at your hands.” Mance studied Jon’s face. “You saw the Fist of the First Men. You know what happened there. You know what we are facing.”

“The Others...

“They grow stronger as the days grow shorter and the nights colder. First they kill you, then they send your dead against you. The giants have not been able to stand against them, nor the Therns, the ice river clans, the Hornfoots.”

“Nor you?”

“Nor me.”

Mance just admits several things:

1. That the Others are killing his people and he can't stop them

2. That he has enough men to break the Night's Watch's defenses

3. That he could send thousands of men to cross the Bay of Seals, storm the Shadow Tower, and dig out the gates at the abandoned castles all at once

Now...take all of that into account. Mance just admitted he vastly outnumbers the Night's Watch, has no choice but to break the Wall or they all will die, and has at least 3 other plans that he could be implementing all at the same time WHILE attacking the gate at Castle Black. Yet he doesn't. Why? Because he doesn't want to lose more people. But that's just stupid. Stupid, stupid. If Mance doesn't get his people south of the Wall, ALL of them will die. So it makes no sense for him to sit back and pound at Castle Black's gate when he could be pounding away at all of the Wall's other defenses which are not as heavily fortified as it is because he's worried about losing men when they ALL will die if he doesn't break through. It makes no sense whatsoever.

[sifth]

That's not being dumb, that is being uneducated.

Remember, Mance is not part of the nobility, nor did he ever take part in any military operation beyond about a dozen rangers. The whole stuff is way beyond his knowledge and that of any other Wildling.

I know man. In the books Mance comes up with some great ideas, how he executes them is horrible though. I mean he really should have attacked Castle Black from the North and South at the same time, like on the show. It's pretty obvious to see how this would mean certain doom for The Watch; even if you're not as educated as a great lord or Maester, this is just common sense.

[Good Guy Garlan]

I kinda like his reason in the books (I like the one of the show too) because I think he was basically saying: "With the NW I was just one among hundreds, and at Winterfell I was even less than that. But here I can raise higher, like you, and one day become like part of the King Beyond the Wall's court or some shit"

That works for Jon's latent envy for Robb too, and plays to Mance's dislike for the lack of individuality of the NW (remember he wanted to keep the red on his cloak, possibly as a means of differenciating himself)

I agree with the rest, though. At best, Mance should have commanded his men to kill Jon as soon as they crossed the Wall

[Kundry]

I think that Mance never believed Jon was a turncloack, he knew that he would return to the NW and I suspect that Mance thought that Jon was on some sort of mission for the NW.

Nevertheless, he also saw that Jon was a good and smart guy, and he knew that Jon was meant and trained to be the next LC.

So, letting Jon undersand wildlings, getting friend withthem was a smart move on his part, as there woul be a chance that further Jon could help wildlings to go through the wall.

Mance said that he just wanted wildlings go south the wall in order to survive and tat he meant to negotiate it, and having Jon on the other side ofthe negotiators could only be a good thing.

[sifth]

I kinda like his reason in the books (I like the one of the show too) because I think he was basically saying: "With the NW I was just one among hundreds, and at Winterfell I was even less than that. But here I can raise higher, like you, and one day become like part of the King Beyond the Wall's court or some shit"

That works for Jon's latent envy for Robb too, and plays to Mance's dislike for the lack of individuality of the NW (remember he wanted to keep the red on his cloak, possibly as a means of differenciating himself)

I agree with the rest, though. At best, Mance should have commanded his men to kill Jon as soon as they crossed the Wall

He was the Lord Commanders steward and being groomed for command by one of The Watches strongest fighters. Even if Mance didn't know about the former, he certainly knew about the latter. Jon Snow was not your every day solider in the Night's Watch.

[wolfmaid7]

I had a problem with Jon's explanation for him leaving the watch myself and worst off that Mance believed it.I'm guessing Mance knew how Jon was treated just knowing about Ned and Benjen's character a little bit would have one conclude Jon wasn't mistreated.That and seeing Jon playing with Robb as a child ...yeah lame excuse. At best being a well treated bastard would maybe-depending on who pissed you off- would cause you to pee in a few cups,maybe put a bit a poo in Cat's shoe or something but not turning your cloak on an organization that had nothing to do with you being a bastard.

I agree the show did it better i could see that connection as plausible and one Mance would believe. So i'm forced to consider that maybe Mance knew Jon was spewing some :bs:

[Wight Shrute]

Don't forget when rattleshirt(mance) and jon have that sword fight in the yard in castle black and mance just starts beating the crap out of him doesn't he say something while he's on the ground I can't remember

This couldve just been a bit of mance payback now that they're on that side of the wall and now that he has that security he's decieving jon IMO because it seems like he wrote the pink letter

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Then why does everyone in the book praise him like he's some sort of military genius?

But that's not even what I mean. I mean that Mance has plans...he just doesn't implement them for no discernible reason at all.

Take this part in particular:

Mance ran a hand along the curve of the great horn. “No man goes hunting with only one arrow in his quiver,” he said. “I had hoped that Styr and Jarl would take your brothers unawares, and open the gate for us. I drew your garrison away with feints and raids and secondary attacks. Bowen Marsh swallowed that lure as I knew he would, but your band of cripples and orphans proved to be more stubborn than anticipated. Don’t think you’ve stopped us, though. The truth is, you are too few and we are too many. I could continue the attack here and still send ten thousand men to cross the Bay of Seals on rafts and take Eastwatch from the rear. I could storm the Shadow Tower too, I know the approaches as well as any man alive. I could send men and mammoths to dig out the gates at the castles you’ve abandoned, all of them at once.”

“Why don’t you, then?” Jon could have drawn Longclaw then, but he wanted to hear what the wildling had to say.

“Blood,” said Mance Rayder. “I’d win in the end, yes, but you’d bleed me, and my people have bled enough.”

“Your losses haven’t been that heavy.”

“Not at your hands.” Mance studied Jon’s face. “You saw the Fist of the First Men. You know what happened there. You know what we are facing.”

“The Others...

“They grow stronger as the days grow shorter and the nights colder. First they kill you, then they send your dead against you. The giants have not been able to stand against them, nor the Therns, the ice river clans, the Hornfoots.”

“Nor you?”

“Nor me.”

Mance just admits several things:

1. That the Others are killing his people and he can't stop them

2. That he has enough men to break the Night's Watch's defenses

3. That he could send thousands of men to cross the Bay of Seals, storm the Shadow Tower, and dig out the gates at the abandoned castles all at once

Now...take all of that into account. Mance just admitted he vastly outnumbers the Night's Watch, has no choice but to break the Wall or they all will die, and has at least 3 other plans that he could be implementing all at the same time WHILE attacking the gate at Castle Black. Yet he doesn't. Why? Because he doesn't want to lose more people. But that's just stupid. Stupid, stupid. If Mance doesn't get his people south of the Wall, ALL of them will die. So it makes no sense for him to sit back and pound at Castle Black's gate when he could be pounding away at all of the Wall's other defenses which are not as heavily fortified as it is because he's worried about losing men when they ALL will die if he doesn't break through. It makes no sense whatsoever.

Mance bluffed. These plans are extremely time consuming and he's running short.

I know man. In the books Mance comes up with some great ideas, how he executes them is horrible though. I mean he really should have attacked Castle Black from the North and South at the same time, like on the show. It's pretty obvious to see how this would mean certain doom for The Watch; even if you're not as educated as a great lord or Maester, this is just common sense.

Impossible to coordinate that without radio, especially in a society as militarily advanced as the Wildlings.

I kinda like his reason in the books (I like the one of the show too) because I think he was basically saying: "With the NW I was just one among hundreds, and at Winterfell I was even less than that. But here I can raise higher, like you, and one day become like part of the King Beyond the Wall's court or some shit"

That works for Jon's latent envy for Robb too, and plays to Mance's dislike for the lack of individuality of the NW (remember he wanted to keep the red on his cloak, possibly as a means of differenciating himself)

I agree with the rest, though. At best, Mance should have commanded his men to kill Jon as soon as they crossed the Wall

King in the North as well. Remember, Jon is 20 years younger than Mance. He'll expect to survive him.

[aryagonnakill#2]

Jon never drew his sword on Mance... His hand twitched towards it when he was afraid he would be killed, and Mance warned him, that's significantly different than actually trying to kill someone. I agree with your overall sentiment but that's a pretty big detail.

[sj4iy]

Mance bluffed. These plans are extremely time consuming and he's running short.

No more time-consuming than spending weeks attacking the gate of Castle Black. Mance could have been attacking ALL of those places at once without spreading himself thin. It's not as if he was even using a fraction of his forces to attack the gate. If he had attacked all of those at once, he would have broken the Wall before Stannis got there because odds are that at least ONE of those attacks would have worked.

Like Mance said, you don't go hunting with only one arrow in your quiver. But shooting one arrow at a time doesn't make sense when you have several archers who can all shoot an arrow at the same time.

[farm_ecology]

I'm of the mind that Mance is actually a lot smarter, and lot more devious than Jon gives him credit for. I can't help but feel that Mance doesn't actually care that Jon is lying through his teeth. Instead, Mance is quite content with the fact that Jon isn't actually much of a threat, but could potentially be used at some point later (which happened).

I doubt if Mance predicted all the events, but Mance 'believing' Jon's story now means he and his wildling army are now on the right side of the wall, the Black Brothers are in Chaos, Mance himself is in winterfell. I have a feeling that Mance is about to make a much bigger play very soon.