Jon and Mance's relationship is completely ridiculous

[Universal Sword Donor]

It has to do with how the other wildlings see Mance as well; what's to keep the other crow from turning back?

Other than a death sentence and the fact every single widling has pledged him fealty?

[Leonardo]

Other than a death sentence and the fact every single widling has pledged him fealty?

And can unpledge it just as easily.

Also what I said has nothing to do with mance questioning his own turning and that's now what I intended or implied lol. Its all about the view of Mance's own turning of the cloak in others eyes

[Brightstar_]

Other than a death sentence and the fact every single widling has pledged him fealty?

I agree, I doubt that there's any wildling who thought "hey that Snow bastard turned out to still be a crow, let's dethrone Mance because he might still be a crow too!"

[Brightstar_]

I feel like we're kinda missing your whole point Leonardo, do elaborate please.

[Universal Sword Donor]

And can unpledge it just as easily.

Also what I said has nothing to do with mance questioning his own turning and that's now what I intended or implied lol. Its all about the view of Mance's own turning of the cloak in others eyes

It's really, really simple. They wouldn't have pledged fealty to him if they thought there was even a remote chance of it happening.

[sifth]

More like a pet project that helps prove his own devotion and faith in the cause. Mance also sees a lot of himself in Jon, and like mormont was seemingly grooming him for command at one point, or possibly trying to train someone worthy enough to be his successor

Sure Mance would like to have more crows on his side. That doesn't mean he should send one who only joined his side for about a week on a top secret mission to destroy Castle Black. Especially after Jon already betrayed him by not telling Mance that the Old Bear was at The Fist of the First Men, with 300 members of the watch.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

An undermanned Wall, with most of it's castles empty. You do realize most of the people The Old Bear got killed on his "Great Ranging" were rangers. Who do you think make the patrols along the Wall? Two rangers one builder. Most of the rangers went with Mormont, leaving only a handful to patrol The Wall.

If all of that isn't enough simply send over more than one team. You seemed to ignore that part, unless you believe The Watch is a lot stronger than it really is, especially in the paroling department after having more than 1/3 of its men killed.

Of course I do. That's why Mance was certain that Styr would succeed. When he learned of the failure after the gate was not open, then he'd have to rearrange plans.

So Jon is like a fetish?

A bit.

He definitely sees a lot of himself in Jon. Would you kill yourself? For a decision you made as well?

[Universal Sword Donor]

Sure Mance would like to have more crows on his side. That doesn't mean he should send one who only joined his side for about a week on a top secret mission to destroy Castle Black. Especially after Jon already betrayed him by not telling Mance that the Old Bear was at The Fist of the First Men, with 300 members of the watch.

Um Jon told him exactly the that Mormont led 300 men at the Fist.

[sifth]

Um Jon told him exactly the that Mormont led 300 men at the Fist.

Only after Mance figured it out on his own, by discovering the devastation at The Fist. Go back and read Jon II of A Storm of Swords. Mance is pissed at Jon in that chapter and out right threatens to kill him should he lie again.

[cassidyaj]

I don't think Mance would have taken the wall down. They need to be on the other side of it and keep it between them and the WW. But destroying the NW would also not work or simply sneaking through. He needed an attack that was enough to bloody the NW but still allow for them to be able to negotiate to let the Free Folk in. The Free Folk follow strength so Mance was trying to negotiate things on his terms but Stannis screwed it up for him. Free Folk would have abandoned him if he had begged to get south of the Wall and the Northmen would have hunted them down if they snuck thru. Maybe keeping Jon was a way to have a NW sympathetic to them that could help him negotiate things better. Killing him would have served no purpose to Mance but keeping him alive might have helped him in the future. And Jon was so closely watched that he never had much chance to get away. He never would have gotten away if Summer hasn't been there.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

It's because...

He's actually... his father!

Eh, I don't think book Mance was nearly as smart as people made him out to be. The way he handles the attack on the Wall is utterly ridiculous. Waiting the southern raiders to attack first was dumb. Not throwing everything he had at the Wall was dumb. Naming off about 5 other viable plans for attacking the Wall but not doing any of them was REALLY dumb. Show Mance was much smarter, IMO.

That's not being dumb, that is being uneducated.

Remember, Mance is not part of the nobility, nor did he ever take part in any military operation beyond about a dozen rangers. The whole stuff is way beyond his knowledge and that of any other Wildling.

Then why does everyone in the book praise him like he's some sort of military genius?

Mostly people in this books are idiots :dunno: :lol:

Mance's skills in commanding could be terrible (to be honest, I dunno), but I was referring to his other qualities like being able to know people and get them into his side. He managed to unite the wildlings, I guess hes' good with people.

[dRagonese]

Mance knew the whole time that John was a crow through and through. That being said he figured maybe a little fire crotch to warm him up at night may help sympathize him to the wildling cause and when the time came for Mance to treat with the NW with would be great to have a sympathetic brother in the watch. This was his plan the whole time to just show Jon that wildlings and the southern folk are very much alike and that Mance needs Jon to help get them safety past the wall. All in all it was a great play and it was minimal risk. He used Jon perfectly and ended up getting more then he could ever hope for out of his "trust in Jon" Ygrette helped sway Jon to be sympathetic but Mance knew that living with a group for any period of time would have Jon realize they are just people, Mance is a genius and it really could not of went any better for him. The fact that Jon ended up as LC was the best thing that could of happened to Mance, his little traitor won him a golden ticket through the wall. Mance for president 2016!

[Universal Sword Donor]

It's because...

He's actually... his father!

Mostly people in this books are idiots :dunno: :lol:

Mance's skills in commanding could be terrible (to be honest, I dunno), but I was referring to his other qualities like being able to know people and get them into his side. He managed to unite the wildlings, I guess hes' good with people.

I would be interested to see Mance vs Ser Rodrik as commanders, with a slight benefit to Mance. Their combined tactical acument might hit Benfred Tallhart.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Look guys. Martin writes a character driven story, in which by his own admission: "The human heart in conflict with itself is the only story worth telling."

So at times he tends to get drawn too far into a focus on the internal significance of certain motivations to the point of view character, to the extent that external logic needs to be put on hold a bit.

We see this perfectly demonstrated in the Jon-Mance situation. Jon talking about his bitterness at being a bastard is highly significant to him - in fact it is central to his character. But Martin gets drawn in so much into the "beauty" of this internal struggle that his perspective on the external world is twisted by it. Just because it is a big deal for Jon, does not mean Mance will give a shit about it.

We see it again with Victarrion and his internal issues about Euron stealing his wife and his grief at killing her. This internal struggle is then used as a supposedly plausible motivation for him to agree to work for Euron again, with the intention of "stealing" his dragon bride from him, however implausible that reasoning is from an external perspective.

I am sure there are more examples, but these are the two that spring to mind.

[KingofSothoryos]

Okay so after some pondering and rereading of the text I just have to say that I find the relationship between Jon and Mance to just be absurd (and that's an understatement)

First we have their initial meeting in which Jon tells Mance that he turned his cloak because he was seated at the bastard table, or just general bastard resentment. What relevance does this have to desertion? He decided to leave an egalitarian organization because he was of a lower class than the top 1%? Can someone explain how this makes any sense? Or why someone would actually believe this? What is telling is that Jon thinks that this is the only thing he would believe, which is a statement of Jon's intelligence more than anything else

Then there is the "Fist fiasco" as I like to call it, where Jon is caught in a lie he told. So we have a very flimsy story as to why Jon deserted, as well as Jon being shown to be unfaithful to the wildling cause. Then if this isn't enough grounds for killing Jon, Jon tries to draw his sword and attack Mance. Seriously, why would anyone tolerate this? Especially someone who has gathered the wildling clans, and is thus supposed to be reasonably intelligent. But the incredulity of it all doesn't end there

When Mance and Jon reunite, Jon has already betrayed the wildling cause (what a surprise!) and he is given a warm welcome by not only Mance, but Tormund as well. He is sat down and treated not like a liar and a traitor but as someone who strayed from Mance's liking a bit. Why exactly does Mance still like him anyways? We'll never get the answer to that I'm guessing. But the absolute worst part is that he is let into their tent with a sword!

So lets recap: Jon joined the wildlings because being a bastard sucks, lied to Mance right off the bat, drew his sword against him, betrayed him earnest, and is now let into his tent with a weapon. WTF?

Then we have Stannis' charge coming, of which Mance has to ask if Jon is behind. While Jon is not actually behind it, any intelligent person would immediately come to the conclusion that the compulsive liar and traitor has now engineered an ambush. Why does he have to ask that at all? And he makes no move to detain Jon, or anything

The relationship between these two characters really tests my ability to suspend disbelief, does anyone else feel the same way?

I disagree, I think Mance's actions as regards to Jon do make sense especially when you take into account that Jon killed the Half-Hand. To Mance, Jon has nowhere to go. He can't go back to the Night's Watch or he'll be hanged or beheaded for desertion and killing his commanding officer. So all Mance really wants to know is why has Jon irreparably turned his back on the Night's Watch in order to see if he is someone that he can work with. Its only under the unprecedented threat of Mance's huge host and the warning that Jon brings of it, which allows him back into the Night's Watch. And if Janos Slynt had become Lord Commander, even that wouldn't have sufficed.

Mance was at Winterfell for the feast for King Robert in order to observe. He probably made note of Jon sitting below the salt staggering out angrily drunk on the brink of tears after talking with Benjen and then six months to a year later, he's in the Night's Watch in the Frostfangs. It doesn't take too much of a leap of logic to conclude that a bastard lordling unhappy with his lot in life, seemingly forced into the Night's Watch (with its crazy oaths and thankless duty) would be happy to be free. And Jon thinks this is the only thing that Mance will believe because it is Jon's truth. It is the pull that tugs on Jon, that if he was not a bastard, this would not be his life. Maybe we can just chalk it up to Jon thinking the only thing Mance will believe is the truth. Whether it will be because of how Jon delivers it or because of the actual words, we know Mance will be weighing every non-verbal and verbal clue to Jon's sincerity. Remember also that Mance didn't really have a choice himself about joining the Night's Watch either, he was simply raised on the Wall and becoming a brother was the only life he knew.

I also think that Mance would not have respected Jon, if he had completely forsaken the Night's Watch. I think Mance having been a crow and still having respect for some of his old brothers, understands Jon's reluctance to just completely betray the Watch. Mance believes from Jon's reason for leaving the Watch that it is not that Jon hated the Watch or all his former brothers. Jon hates his lot in life which forced him into the Watch due to his bastard Lordling status. But the fact that Jon is conflicted about betraying his brothers is reasonable for someone who only wanted to be free of their oaths, but is still an honorable person that was forced to make a hard life decision and chose the same side that Mance had chosen when he had that same hard decision to make.

I think three other reasons why Mance was so eager to have Jon on his side was 1. Jon has Stark blood. The Wildlings and Mance are keenly aware of the power of the Starks, whether with the Old Gods or just the fact that every Wildling incursion past the Wall has been broken by the Watch and the Starks. So having Jon may help his cause when dealing with Winterfell. 2. Jon brings knowledge of the Southron way of doing things, which is sadly lacking in his ragtag army. To have someone else who can help with order would be of great advantage. 3. Jon's a warg. The Wildlings are all too familiar with skinchangers and wargs and I'm sure Mance understands the value in that skill.

I also think when Mance and Jon reunite after the battle, Jon comes as an envoy and Mance is confident that he will still win due to his overwhelming numbers, so there is no reason for him to be angry or dismissive of Jon. Plus, Mance and Tormund both respect the supreme courage it must have taken for Jon to walk back into their camp as an envoy to treat with them. As Mance is truly trying to negotiate a way through the Wall, he was going to treat with who ever the Watch sent to him, even if it was someone at any other time he would kill on sight. And i don't think Mance feared Jon's blade. Obviously Mance is a great fighter or he wouldn't have been King-Beyond-the-Wall. And he is surrounded by a huge host; so if Jon did kill him, it would be a certain death. So between the fact that he doesn't think Jon is suicidal, on top of probably being supremely confident that Jon couldn't kill him if he tried, Mance didn't care if Jon was armed or not. So when Stannis charges, Mance cannot believe that this is some trick of Jon's because it would have meant that Jon was suicidal and came knowing full well he was going to die when the ruse was up.

I think all in all, Mance wanted to believe Jon because he knew he would be a strong addition to his host and the better he got to know Jon, the more he respected him. But I believe first and foremost he figured Jon had no choice but to keep faith with him because he couldn't go back to the Watch after killing the Half-Hand and pretty much at all times when Jon was with the Wildlings, he was surrounded by blades which would kill him at a moment's notice of treachery. And truth be told, they would have killed Jon when he did betray the Wildlings if it wasn't for Summer and Ygritte's inability to kill him.

[David Selig]

I very much agree. Poor Mance is a total victim of Jon's stupidity inducing field.

His reason for joining Mance was simply his way of saying he had had enough of living without options. "Did you see where they put the bastard," as in after they had him in the back long enough they shipped him off to the night's watch, neither of which were his choice.

But that's not true at all. An acknowledged bastard of Ned Stark, raised as a trueborn and educated by top tutors in arms and other stuff has way more options than 99,99% of the population of Westeros. Yes, compared to his siblings he had it worse, but they are literally among the 30 or so most privileged persons on the continent.

"They put the bastard" on the tables with the other nobles who weren't of Ned and Robert's rank, aka every noble below the Lord paramount level. The horror...

[RainGhost]

I think Mance probably found it easier to believe that someone would want to leave the NW than stay faithful. And even if Jon does go back, he's only one man, the NW is still outnumbered. Mance wanted the NW to let them through the Wall; the more crows who stopped seeing the wildlings as enemies the better.

[Salafi Stannis]

Yeah I agree that Jon's reason for desertion in the books isn't really all that good. The show did it better when they said he deserted because Mormont knew about the White Walker baby thing.

That scene was cut from the show.

[sifth]

Mance didn't want to kill the watch, and he didn't hate them.

GRRM was showing us that some of the wildlings have quite a deal of civility, unlike what we've heard about them.

Also Mance left the watch,and he knows Jon killed an officer (though not why).

Even if Jon did go back he would be executed if Mance, or one of his men spilled the beans, hell he nearly was!

Nope he just wanted every person at Castle Black dead. What a guy.

[Ingelheim]

I very much agree. Poor Mance is a total victim of Jon's stupidity inducing field.

But that's not true at all. An acknowledged bastard of ned Stark, raised as a trueborn and educated by top tutors in arms and other stuff has way more options than 99,99% of the population of Westeros. Yes, compared to his siblings he had it worse, but they are literally among the 30 or so most privileged persons on the continent.

"They put the bastard" on the tables with the other nobles who weren't of Ned and Robert's rank, aka every noble below the Lord paramount level. The horror...

I think the reason Jon gave in the TV Show was better than the original version, to be honest.