Jon and Dany dying, who wants it?

[Storm's Arrival]

Am i the only person that wants these two to die? Keep ASOIAF's brutal realism rather than transform it into a fairytale ending?

Danaerys should die, her ADWD chapters prove that.

Jon is slightly leas nauseous, but he has been stabbed numerously. He should die under the medieval health care plan.

As we learnt after Ned and Robb, there are still plenty of amazing characters to continue the story, so who else wants them to die?

[Faydra]

I think you confuse realistic with random. Having the action centered on a few characters who acomplished great steps is not exclusively fairy-like. In this life we have people who lived both adventurous and monotonous lives. Writing about the former is not far from realistic.

I have to ask, why Dany and Jon? What other amazing character do you want to continue the story and what does he/she have that Dany and Jon do not?

[LordStoneheart]

It doesn't mean it's a fairy tale just because it's not always brutal 100% of the time. Jon and Dany can survive with the story still being "brutal and realistic." Also, "realism" was out of the window from the prologue. GRRM's just good at keeping the magic minimal.

Plus, I think you're really doing the term "fairytale" a disservice by thinking it's just an unrealistic, overly happy story. Real fairytales could be scary as f**k. Faerie stories can be just as or more brutal than this series.

Danaerys should die, her ADWD chapters prove that.

The only thing proven here is that you have a bias against the main two characters of the series.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

Absolutely. I'm fine with them living if they don't get the throne. Either winning this would be deeply disappointing. Jon appears to be the prophecised saviour of every culture in the world and Dany seems to be the undefeatable conqueror who doesn't actually get her hands dirty. Thumbs down to both

[Dolorous22]

Not me, but thank you for this line,

He should die under the medieval health care plan.

For me, Dany & Jon are legendary characters who rather than 'settle' for whatever is easy or comfortable, chose to shape and mold the world around them. Both of these characters could of shrunken into bit part players or yielded to others. Instead they give us a story and create drama. Their complexity allows their next move to become a mystery and less of a forgone conclusion. Imagine their meeting, what would it be like? It's actually difficult (and fun) to predict how one would gauge the other. The support cast enjoy a larger role than they would in another story, this is GRRM spoiling and indulging us. I agree that a characters mortality is what ultimately makes you care about them, it does not make them interesting.

Now I'm no fan of Dany. I find her both fickle and sanctimonious. But it would be massively detrimental to the story to remove her. IMO.

It's no coincidence that both Dany and Jon find themselves in great peril by the end of DwD. There are forces they do not understand working against and for them. The fact that they can survive what would kill most others is what makes it a 'story' and not a mere morbid recollection of events in a fictitious environment.

Absolutely. I'm fine with them living if they don't get the throne. Either winning this would be deeply disappointing. Jon appears to be the prophecised saviour of every culture in the world and Dany seems to be the undefeatable conqueror who doesn't actually get her hands dirty. Thumbs down to both

I seriously have to question whether you hare read or just 'skimmed' their chapters if thats your conclusion to both. Both characters have suffered immensely in many ways.

[Storm's Arrival]

No i am not confused simply because my opinion of a character differs from yours.

I want to know if anyone else would get a kick out of seeing Jon and Dany die despite their targ blood (supected or known), dragons, prophecies and 'main character status'.

I think its concievably realistic that the commander of a wall of thieves and murders defending against barbarians and undead could die, you may recall he had just been stabbed multiple times?

I think it is concievably realistic that a conqueror of a foreign city could meet her death, considering the amount of people that would like it.

There is of course a chance they could survive and save the world and have little targ kids. But that sounds pretty dull.

Study the word fairytale all you wish, you know the happy ending template of which i mean.

[Ellfoy]

If they die before the end, I would found it lame because sacrificing narrative just to subvert the troopes would be lame.

[Roxy Carmichael]

Based on how the series has been written, I think it makes the most sense - by far - for them both to die by the end of the series.

If Dany lives, I think she'll become one of the crones at Vaes Dothrak or something like that.

If Jon lives, he'll probably continue on in the NW if it's still around, or as a castellan for Rickon or something.

Really though, if Martin wants to write the best literature (not the best fanfiction) that he can, they'll both die.

[Storm's Arrival]

Exactly. I'd hate a Harry Potter ending, where a few people you like die, but the 'main characters' some how cheat death and live happily ever after.

Dany,Tyrion or Jon can't all survive until the end. The Others are pretty much near to Apocalypse, and these characters shouldn't be immune to this because of prophecies and the sufferings they have endured.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

No, I don't believe you're the only one who hopes for deaths of the characters they don't like. Hey, write a heartfelt letter to George, maybe you'll sway him.

[Ellfoy]

Exactly. I'd hate a Harry Potter ending, where a few people you like die, but the 'main characters' some how cheat death and live happily ever after.

Dany,Tyrion or Jon can't all survive until the end. The Others are pretty much near to Apocalypse, and these characters shouldn't be immune to this because of prophecies and the sufferings they have endured.

Then why not Tyrion ? I mean until then, If you want to be realistic, he shoud have been dead for a long time.

It's not because you don't like a few of the main characters that they had to die to make the story better.

[sj4iy]

Do I want them to die? No, because I like both characters. Will I accept it? If it's done in a way that services the story, yes.

However, wanting them to die just indicates nothing but a person's bias against said characters.

[LordStoneheart]

There is of course a chance they could survive and save the world and have little targ kids. But that sounds pretty dull.

Study the word fairytale all you wish, you know the happy ending template of which i mean.

Who was proposing that ending though? No one in this thread suggested it. If you saw it in other threads, I'm sure you could've said it was dull there... I don't think Jon and Dany will have children, but if they do hook up romantically I doubt it will be happy at all.

I think the only way you can concretely say that both of them dying will be more "realistic" or entertaining is if you've already decided that it will be a happy ending, formed an opinion of that, and then rolled with it. I never said it wasn't realistic for them to die, but I don't think it pushes realism for them to survive. What GRRM has said of the ending is that it will be bittersweet. Not a brutal death party.

But in all honesty, if you want realism you're looking at the wrong series. This one begins with ice demons resurrecting a corpse into a magic puppet, and the first book ends with a woman walking into a fire unharmed and hatching dragons. The very idea that this series is realistic is pure fantasy.

[sj4iy]

Exactly. I'd hate a Harry Potter ending, where a few people you like die, but the 'main characters' some how cheat death and live happily ever after.

Dany,Tyrion or Jon can't all survive until the end. The Others are pretty much near to Apocalypse, and these characters shouldn't be immune to this because of prophecies and the sufferings they have endured.

What about Arya? Since there's actual foreshadowing that she may die at the end?

[Storm's Arrival]

I like Tyrion and Jon to a lesser extent. Its not character hate to want to see main character casualties.

[Ellfoy]

So far the major deaths of the books have served to move the story forward, what would be the point of killing Jon and Dany now ? Dany whole arc would be pointless and Jon's death wouldn't serve anything (chaos in the NW if he survives the stabing and chaos if he doesn't survive). Then, if you think that they should die at the end of the books, what makes you think that the end of their story arc would not be interesting if one of them or both survives ? There is an entire realm of possibilities of what Dany and Jon may end with, nobody knows what GRRM has really planned for them.

(And by the way, Dany would never accept to be one of the crones at Vaes Dothrak)

[Mithras]

I think Tyrion and Dany will not survive the series. In fact, very few of the characters we know will survive. Just look at the body count of the First Dance. The Second Dance will be as bloody as the first one. In addition to that, we have a zombie apocalypse coming with a terrible winter. And we already had the Wot5K.

I don't think Jon will die because there is so much investment to him as the product of R+L=J, the prophecized savior and the king in hiding.

"Tropes" are not bad. What matters is how you "handle" them. A character can do the right things as expected from a traditional trope but in a closer look, if that character does the right things for wrong reasons, then it can be something unique.

[A spoon of knife and fork]

I really love Dany and also like Jon, so differ with that part of the OP. Yet, I think both of them dying eventually and permanently could be part of a satisfying ending to the series. I see more of a "going out in a blaze of glory" ending for them, though.

I also don't think that either of their failures mean they deserve death somehow. I would imagine that OP would not think that Stannis' failures on the BW mean he "deserved" to die, just a guess tho.

[ummester]

Jon and Dany dying, at this time, is just as unrealistic as them not dying.

Many characters have died - you would expect, in any conflict era, that some will make it all the way through. Some POVs from book 1 should exist in the last book.

Killing them won't make their characters consistent with the rest of the universe, that is not the issue. The issue is they have been obviously portrayed as the stories primary monomyths (in both the book and the show) from the very beginning.

So the best way to subvert them is not to kill them but subvert what being the monomyth in this tale means. get them to the end and then do things with them we haven't seen before or don't expect.

[DamoDega]

Am i the only person that wants these two to die? Keep ASOIAF's brutal realism rather than transform it into a fairytale ending?

Danaerys should die, her ADWD chapters prove that.

Jon is slightly leas nauseous, but he has been stabbed numerously. He should die under the medieval health care plan.

As we learnt after Ned and Robb, there are still plenty of amazing characters to continue the story, so who else wants them to die?

I believe peoples are too obsessed with that "if Jon end up Hero = fairytale/boring"

Wake up, he's already kinda the hero

And hidden behind this or that massacre/bloodbath/assassination/plot twist there are a lot of characters that benefit from narrative plot shield, they are just less obvious

Example, seeing that watching your sign it seem we are both Stannis fans... Stannis is another plot-shielded

Difference on his one is that we already know his shield have already a date writted over it, and that at some point GRRM is going to remove it

No way Stannis will end this run as the King, his whole character is about being "almost there"

Even deaths are often functional to the narrative, is not that random characters die because "lulz this is asoiaf bitch!"

Ned Stark die?

Mufasa in Disney's Lion King die too (fuck you, Scar)

Robb's death was a nice punch to the balls, but even his death is really narrative-driven

Robb was the naif idea of hope, of an easy solution against "evil"... he served the purpose to show that is not only about "i hope an hero defeat them!", because you can defeat evil in open field and still lose

Jon represent something similar but different.

Robb's war was a conflict of men. Little, vicious, tricky, traitors, backstabbing men. Good men (all good?) vs bad men(all bad?)... but still men, is not a real Good vs Evil, is just a war.

Jon's war against The Others seem going to be a more pure and narrative expression of Good vs Evil, and for that reason have him being a more pure and narraitive incarnation of "the Hero" sound coherent to me

I don't consider asoiaf characters "humans"... they are surely more mature and deep than many others, but still they are there to be leitmotifs with legs

They change, evolve, suprise... but still they only exist to serve the story

I like GRRM style, but i don't consider him the automatic negation of classic narrative pillars... if anything, he just take a (huge) deviation from it, but i can see him go toward a "classic" ending...

I believe it will end with heroes and big villains, with a final clash, with the "good guys" team winning

But i also believe being GRRMthe writer, it will have a huge price

He's trying to write his own epic/narrative/fantasy legend, i can easily see him give it an epic powerful ending using all classic tools of narrative instead go for a weaker/wierd gritty realistic one just because he MUST be "original"

My simple opinion is that peoples should stop say to GRRM what is or what should be GRRM style, and let him be GRRM :D