Gerold+Joanna=Tyrion (G+J=T)

[Crowfood's Daughter]

In another thread, reddit.com/user/DaveSuzuki mentioned:

"I don't know why people dismiss the idea of Tyrion being a Targ out of hand. Tyrion makes so many references to being a bastard, it's almost like GRRM is clubbing us on the head with it."

Like a magician, I believe GRRM may be getting his readers to look stage left. If you have read my previous post regarding Tyrion you may have noticed some similarities to Asterion, the Minotaur and Tryrion Lannister

As far as the storyline goes, I feel that Tyrion's father being either Tywin or Aerys would be less than climactic. Tyrion or Aerys are what is expected. Those seeds GRRM has planted he has not tried to hide from you but rather has thrown it in your face and expects you to ponder Aerys or dismiss the notion and stand firm in resolution that Tywin is Tyrion's father.

Asterion (Does the name sound oddly familiar?)

In the myth of the Minotaur, King Minos prayed to Poseidon for a white bull which was intended for sacrificial purposes to please the Gods. Instead King Minos decided to keep it for himself out of greed. The gods became angered and Aphrodite coerced King Minos' wife Pasiphae to fall in love with the white bull. The result of this unholy union was a monster half man/ half bull with the head of a bull and the body of a man and he was given the name “Asterion”.

“Lannister!” he shouted, slaying. His arm was red to the elbow, glistening in the light off the river. When his horse reared again, he shook his axe at the stars and heard them call out “Halfman! Halfman!” Tyrion felt drunk.”--Tyrion

“Plate and scale, I think. The scales gilded bright as the sun, the plate enameled a deep Lannister crimson. I would suggest a demon’s head for a helm, crowned with tall golden horns. When you ride into battle, men will shrink away in fear.”-Tyrion

• When Astrerion had grown up and become a most ferocious animal of incredible strength, King Minos (Asterion's psuedo-father) had him shut up in a prison called the labyrinth. In ASOIAF, Tyrion is imprisoned in the black cells after a trial which was administered by Tywin.

"Her twin’s face had a haggard look. “The shaft goes down to a chamber where half a dozen tunnels meet.“ Whoever did this might still be lurking in the walls. It’s a maze back there, and dark.” She imagined Tyrion creeping between the walls like some monstrous rat..”

• Occasionally in GRRM's writing there will be its of hints or foreshadowing in opening sentences and paragraphs of POV chapters. The following exerpts are solely for example of this phenomena:

"Ned and the girls were eight days gone when Maester Luwin came to her one night in Bran’s sickroom, carrying a reading lamp and the books of account. “It is past time that we reviewed the figures , my lady,” he said. “You’ll want to know how much this royal visit cost us.” -Cat GOT

"The hunt left at dawn. The king wanted wild boar" -Bran GOT"

"Eddard Stark had left before dawn, Septa Mordane informed Sansa as they broke their fast. “The king sent for him. Another hunt, I do believe. There are still wild aurochs in these lands, I am told.” “I’ve never seen an aurochs,” Sansa said, feeding a piece of bacon to Lady under the table. The direwolf took it from her hand, as delicate as a queen."-Sansa GOT

• Now in the first sentence of Tyrion's first POV chapter in the first book. Is as follows:

"Somewhere in the great stone maze of Winterfell, a wolf howled."--Tyrion

In both stories, King Minos and Tywin are quite similar in their treatment of and relationship with Asterion and Tyrion. Both are humiliated, embarrassed, fearful and shun their sons with resulting imprisonment. The cause of infidelity in King Minos' wife was her husband's greed in wanting to keep the White Bull for himself. This greed angered to Gods and Asterion was born. Interestingly, the Lannisters are a house closely symbolized with greed and betrayal.

• Knowing that the actual father of Asterion was the White Bull, this brings me to ponder G+J=T. Gerold Hightower (The White Bull) was on Aerys' Kingsguard when Tywin was Hand. Tywin was Hand for about five years before Tyrion was born.

GRRM has also stated that ASOIAF is not a world with black or white characters. "nobody is wholly good or evil". From all accounts from Jaime, The White Bull was almost inhuman, praised, exalted, someone to look up to.

"Worn by the bony arse of Barristan the Bold and Ser Gerold Hightower before him, by Prince Aemon the Dragonknight, Ser Ryam Redwyne, and the Demon of Darry, by Ser Duncan the Tall and the Pale Griffin Alyn Connington. How could the Kingslayer belong in such exalted company?"

‘You swore a vow to guard the king, not to judge him.’ That was the White Bull, loyal to the end and a better man than me, all agree.”

• Lannisters are known for their blond hair, Targaryens are also known for their blonde hair. A Lannister/Lannister coupling or a Lannister/Targaryen coupling would produce blonde children. Yes, I know Tyrion is blonde, but I believe the yellow and black beard should not be the product of Lannister+Lannister OR Lannister+Targaryen parentage.

"He had let his beard grow to cover his pushed-in face, until it was a bristly tangle of yellow and black hair, coarse as wire."

Gerold Hightower was a massive, strong man. Many of the massive men in the ASOIAF world are referred to as giants. Such include:

• Andrik the Unsmiling
• Erik Anvil Breaker
• Bloodbeard
• Harmond Umber
• Aenys Frey
• Hodor

The realization chilled him. Robert had been stronger than him, to be sure. The White Bull Gerold Hightower as well, in his heyday, and Ser Arthur Dayne. Amongst the living, Greatjon Umber was stronger, Strongboar of Crakehall most likely, both Cleganes for a certainty.

• Despite Tyrion's size, he is frequently referred to as casting a big shadow or being a giant:

“And what am I, pray?” Tyrion asked her. “A giant?” “Oh, yes,” she purred, “my giant of Lannister.” She mounted him then, and for a time, she almost made him believe it. Tyrion went to sleep smiling"

“He might even be slain. Tyrion had snorted in derision. “If Littlefinger is dead, then I’m a giant.”

“Maester Aemon said from the far end of the table. He spoke softly, yet the high officers of the Night’s Watch all fell quiet, the better to hear what the ancient had to say. “I think he is a giant come among us, here at the end of the world.” Tyrion answered gently, “I’ve been called many things, my lord, but giant is seldom one of them.” “Nonetheless,” Maester Aemon said as his clouded, milk-white eyes moved to Tyrion’s face, “I think it is true.”

• If the White Bull was Tyrion's father and Tyrion was not afflicted with dwarfism, he would have in reality grown to become a truly massive man.

Now there have been questions and replies regarding storyline and why GRRM would add this to the already rich and multifaceted plot that is ASOIAF. My answer is as follows.

I believe that the "Strong" and the "G+J=Theory" is interconnected to the God's Eye Conspiracy Theory which House Strong and House Hightower (Gerold is specifically mentioned) are major players. When reading the GECS make sure to read all four pages because the OP placed continuations of the theory (pages 1-2) in the comments.

This a topic building on the theory posted here by LemonyLemonyLemonCakes who had the original minotaur connection.

[Kyoshi]

Do you have textual evidence of Joanna and Gerold meeting even once?

[Crowfood's Daughter]

Do you have textual evidence of Joanna and Gerold meeting even once?

If she had met the king then she has met the Kingsguard. Tywin was Hand for about 5 years before Tyrion was even born. They slept under the same roof. They are also from prominent houses both port cities even Oberyn from Dorne met Tyrion as a baby.

[King Tyrion I]

Interesting catch.

I'm at work - I can't type much.

[Stannis's Lawyer]

This twist would appear to be completely pointless from a narrative POV. I mean, how would the story be better if Tyrion's father is a random KG knight who's not of particular importance to the story? In fact, the story would be much much worse, even worse than A+J=T.

Theories based solely on foreshadowing is just dumb. For instance, think about Sansa wishing some hero would cut off Janos Slynt's head. Pretty clear foreshadowing for Jon beheading him, right? Well, no, because Jon originally hanged Janos.

Also, explain the famous "Tywin named Tyrion" SSM. If there was a legitimate mystery about Tyrion's birth, GRRM would have said 'Jon was named by Ned, Dany by Rhaella, and Tyrion by Tywin.' Instead, he said 'Jon was named by Ned, Dany by her mother and Tyrion by her father', implying R+L=J and nothing else.

[Lord Ross]

This twist would appear to be completely pointless from a narrative POV. I mean, how would the story be better if Tyrion's father is a random KG knight who's not of particular importance to the story? In fact, the story would be much much worse, even worse than A+J=T.

Theories based solely on foreshadowing is just dumb. For instance, think about Sansa wishing some hero would cut off Janos Slynt's head. Pretty clear foreshadowing for Jon beheading him, right? Well, no, because Jon originally hanged Janos.

Also, explain the famous "Tywin named Tyrion" SSM. If there was a legitimate mystery about Tyrion's birth, GRRM would have said 'Jon was named by Ned, Dany by Rhaella, and Tyrion by Tywin.' Instead, he said 'Jon was named by Ned, Dany by her mother and Tyrion by her father', implying R+L=J and nothing else.

Basically this. I appreciate the work you've put in. Particularly around the parallels between Tyrion and Hephaestus. Hoever there is little to be gained from Tyrion having a different father.

If his father is Aerys then it destroys his claim to Casterly Rock and he might get to ride a dragon, however TPATQ showed that you don't need a direct targ lineage to ride a dragon.

If his father is Gerold Hightower then it destroys his claim to Casterly rock and....?

Changing Tyrion's father would add little to the story. Unless it comes up that he gets tried for kinslaying at some point in the future and it's been proven that he didn't kill Joffery, and he can prove that it's true; it won't add much to the story. It'll just undermine much of his character development to this point.

[Crowfood's Daughter]

This twist would appear to be completely pointless from a narrative POV. I mean, how would the story be better if Tyrion's father is a random KG knight who's not of particular importance to the story? In fact, the story would be much much worse, even worse than A+J=T.

Theories based solely on foreshadowing is just dumb. For instance, think about Sansa wishing some hero would cut off Janos Slynt's head. Pretty clear foreshadowing for Jon beheading him, right? Well, no, because Jon originally hanged Janos.

Also, explain the famous "Tywin named Tyrion" SSM. If there was a legitimate mystery about Tyrion's birth, GRRM would have said 'Jon was named by Ned, Dany by Rhaella, and Tyrion by Tywin.' Instead, he said 'Jon was named by Ned, Dany by her mother and Tyrion by her father', implying R+L=J and nothing else.

Ha! I was waiting for you to show up Stannis' Lawyer. I think pointless might just be your favorite word. Love the horns buddy!

[Frey family reunion]

If there is a "minotaur" in the story (and I think there is) I've always thought that it is Gerold Dayne. His name even hints to it: Gerold (White Bull, the father of the Minotaur) coupled with the Dayne surname giving a hint to his starry side. Which would make Balon Swann, Theseus in our story. Balon Swann of the white and black swans and Theseus of the sails of black or white. Theseus is led to the Minotaurs lair by the princess Ariadne, while Swann is led by Arianne's half sister Obarra to Gerold's lair.

I like your comparison of Tyrion to Hephasteus, btw.

In addition I think there is a substantial amount of imagery linking Tyrion to Balor a giant with an evil eye of Irish folklore and a god of drought and blight.

[Crowfood's Daughter]

Basically this. I appreciate the work you've put in. Particularly around the parallels between Tyrion and Hephaestus. Hoever there is little to be gained from Tyrion having a different father.

If his father is Aerys then it destroys his claim to Casterly Rock and he might get to ride a dragon, however TPATQ showed that you don't need a direct targ lineage to ride a dragon.

If his father is Gerold Hightower then it destroys his claim to Casterly rock and....?

Changing Tyrion's father would add little to the story. Unless it comes up that he gets tried for kinslaying at some point in the future and it's been proven that he didn't kill Joffery, and he can prove that it's true; it won't add much to the story. It'll just undermine much of his character development to this point.

Lord Ross,

I see where you are coming from and I had originally had both feet in the same camp as yourself when it came to the Tyrion parentage debate. As far as adding or detracting to the storyline, I feel that Tyrion's father being either Tywin or Aerys would be less than climactic. Tyrion or Aerys are what is expected. Those seeds he has planted he has not tried to hide from you but rather expects you to ponder Aerys. Like a magician, he has his readers looking stage left.

I feel the Strong theory has merit and would not harm Tyrion's claim to Casterly Rock if it were kept under wraps. Similar to a few Velarion/Strong dragon riders we read about in TPANQ? I honestly cannot get past the Bull/Smith references in these characters. I feel that many of them could be GRRM making archetypes to embody the seven, but the ones who have "strong" and "lusty" references, I continue to return to the same conclusion. Granted I may be wrong, and I can't prove it at this juncture, but then again how many of these theories can be actually be proven?

"Will you miss your giant of Lannister when he’s dead? He drained his wine, flung the cup aside, and sang lustily."

"He rode through the streets of the city, down from his hill on high,

O’er the wynds and the steps and the cobbles,

he rode to a woman’s sigh.

For she was his secret treasure, she was his shame and his bliss.

And a chain and a keep are nothing,

compared to a woman’s kiss."

.

[Crowfood's Daughter]

If there is a "minotaur" in the story (and I think there is) I've always thought that it is Gerold Dayne. His name even hints to it: Gerold (White Bull, the father of the Minotaur) coupled with the Dayne surname giving a hint to his starry side. Which would make Balon Swann, Theseus in our story. Balon Swann of the white and black swans and Theseus of the sails of black or white. Theseus is led to the Minotaurs lair by the princess Ariadne, while Swann is led by Arianne's half sister Obarra to Gerold's lair.

I like your comparison of Tyrion to Hephasteus, btw.

In addition I think there is a substantial amount of imagery linking Tyrion to Balor a giant with an evil eye of Irish folklore and a god of drought and blight.

Great comparisons! Impressed! I am going to reread Balor and take a look now. I also need to mention that Balor's storyline fits the Baelor the Blessed storyline (analysis in link). Could it be possible that GRRM is using the Minotaur for two characters as he has also done for Balor?

[unitron]

This twist would appear to be completely pointless from a narrative POV. I mean, how would the story be better if Tyrion's father is a random KG knight who's not of particular importance to the story? In fact, the story would be much much worse, even worse than A+J=T.

Theories based solely on foreshadowing is just dumb. For instance, think about Sansa wishing some hero would cut off Janos Slynt's head. Pretty clear foreshadowing for Jon beheading him, right? Well, no, because Jon originally hanged Janos.

Also, explain the famous "Tywin named Tyrion" SSM. If there was a legitimate mystery about Tyrion's birth, GRRM would have said 'Jon was named by Ned, Dany by Rhaella, and Tyrion by Tywin.' Instead, he said 'Jon was named by Ned, Dany by her mother and Tyrion by her father', implying R+L=J and nothing else.

Jon gave the order to hang Slynt, but changed his mind and decided on a personally delivered beheading (Stark family tradition) before Slynt was hanged, so not only could one argue that Sansa wish was foreshadowing, one could argue that Ned's sword swinging in the first Bran chapter was as well.

I personally might not (after a while all this foreshadowing becomes tedious, and I lose interest), but I will contend that at no point was Slynt actually hanged, or otherwise killed more than once.

[Poppa Chase]

Jon gave the order to hang Slynt, but changed his mind and decided on a personally delivered beheading (Stark family tradition) before Slynt was hanged, so not only could one argue that Sansa wish was foreshadowing, one could argue that Ned's sword swinging in the first Bran chapter was as well.

I personally might not (after a while all this foreshadowing becomes tedious, and I lose interest), but I will contend that at no point was Slynt actually hanged, or otherwise killed more than once.

I can't help but read your posts exactly the way that Professor Frink talks.

[Stannis's Lawyer]

Jon gave the order to hang Slynt, but changed his mind and decided on a personally delivered beheading (Stark family tradition) before Slynt was hanged, so not only could one argue that Sansa wish was foreshadowing, one could argue that Ned's sword swinging in the first Bran chapter was as well.

I personally might not (after a while all this foreshadowing becomes tedious, and I lose interest), but I will contend that at no point was Slynt actually hanged, or otherwise killed more than once.

Slynt was hanged in GRRM's original version of the chapter. A fan said Jon would do what Ned did and that made him change it.

[JRose1989]

Lord Ross,

I see where you are coming from and I had originally had both feet in the same camp as yourself when it came to the Tyrion parentage debate. As far as adding or detracting to the storyline, I feel that Tyrion's father being either Tywin or Aerys would be less than climactic. Tyrion or Aerys are what is expected. Those seeds he has planted he has not tried to hide from you but rather expects you to ponder Aerys. Like a magician, he has his readers looking stage left.

I feel the Strong theory has merit and would not harm Tyrion's claim to Casterly Rock if it were kept under wraps. Similar to a few Velarion/Strong dragon riders we read about in TPANQ? I honestly cannot get past the Bull/Smith references in these characters. I feel that many of them could be GRRM making archetypes to embody the seven, but the ones who have "strong" and "lusty" references, I continue to return to the same conclusion. Granted I may be wrong, and I can't prove it at this juncture, but then again how many of these theories can be actually be proven?

"Will you miss your giant of Lannister when he’s dead? He drained his wine, flung the cup aside, and sang lustily."

"He rode through the streets of the city, down from his hill on high,

O’er the wynds and the steps and the cobbles,

he rode to a woman’s sigh.

For she was his secret treasure, she was his shame and his bliss.

And a chain and a keep are nothing,

compared to a woman’s kiss."

.

None of that adequately explains the point of this switch other than 'His father is too obvious.'

His father is obvious because he is his father!

Joanna by all accounts was a supportive wife, what textual evidence do you have that proves she was likely to cheat on Tywin?

I think there comes a point when people need to accept that not every single word written has meaning other than the obvious, these novels are huge and words are going to be used multiple times throughout when describing things.

This would add absolutely nothing to the story. And if it was discovered and kept 'under wraps..' again, what's the point of it existing in the first place??

[Crowfood's Daughter]

None of that adequately explains the point of this switch other than 'His father is too obvious.'

His father is obvious because he is his father!

Joanna by all accounts was a supportive wife, what textual evidence do you have that proves she was likely to cheat on Tywin?

I think there comes a point when people need to accept that not every single word written has meaning other than the obvious, these novels are huge and words are going to be used multiple times throughout when describing things.

This would add absolutely nothing to the story. And if it was discovered and kept 'under wraps..' again, what's the point of it existing in the first place??

JRose,

You blunt criticism poses a great question. Why would Joanna want to cheat on Tywin? My answer would be she would want to cheat on Tywin because he is Tywin. Although Antz did illustrate the "softer" side of him, he is a stern prude who gets what he wants through cunning and force. This is the same man who masterminded the Rains of Castamere which was brutal, he had a hand in the red wedding, he treated Tryrion's wife as a whore and had tryrion and all of the guards rape her, he is a turncloak who ordered the murder of Elia and her children. Tywin speaks fondly of his wife as do most widowers and I agree he truely loved her. Even love and a caring devoted good husband can become a cuckold.

I will touch on concerns of storyline in my topic edit which should come in the next week. I appreciate you taking a look at this.

[Crowfood's Daughter]

1st edit complete

[Crowfood's Daughter]

Lord Ross,

I see where you are coming from and I had originally had both feet in the same camp as yourself when it came to the Tyrion parentage debate. As far as adding or detracting to the storyline, I feel that Tyrion's father being either Tywin or Aerys would be less than climactic. Tyrion or Aerys are what is expected. Those seeds he has planted he has not tried to hide from you but rather expects you to ponder Aerys. Like a magician, he has his readers looking stage left.

I feel the Strong theory has merit and would not harm Tyrion's claim to Casterly Rock if it were kept under wraps. Similar to a few Velarion/Strong dragon riders we read about in TPANQ? I honestly cannot get past the Bull/Smith references in these characters. I feel that many of them could be GRRM making archetypes to embody the seven, but the ones who have "strong" and "lusty" references, I continue to return to the same conclusion. Granted I may be wrong, and I can't prove it at this juncture, but then again how many of these theories can be actually be proven?

"Will you miss your giant of Lannister when he’s dead? He drained his wine, flung the cup aside, and sang lustily."

"He rode through the streets of the city, down from his hill on high,

O’er the wynds and the steps and the cobbles,

he rode to a woman’s sigh.

For she was his secret treasure, she was his shame and his bliss.

And a chain and a keep are nothing,

compared to a woman’s kiss."

.

edit is complete and storyline is addressed

None of that adequately explains the point of this switch other than 'His father is too obvious.'

His father is obvious because he is his father!

Joanna by all accounts was a supportive wife, what textual evidence do you have that proves she was likely to cheat on Tywin?

I think there comes a point when people need to accept that not every single word written has meaning other than the obvious, these novels are huge and words are going to be used multiple times throughout when describing things.

This would add absolutely nothing to the story. And if it was discovered and kept 'under wraps..' again, what's the point of it existing in the first place??

Edit is complete and storyline is addressed. Thank you for this feedback.

[Blazfemur]

Why the hell can't Tyrion just be Joanna & Tywin's? SO much wasted mental energy..

[Crowfood's Daughter]

Why the hell can't Tyrion just be Joanna & Tywin's? SO much wasted mental energy..

I think you are entitled to your opinion, and I think your thoughts have validity. There is a central theme of people not being who we assume them to be or becoming another person in ASOIAF such as Arya, Sansa, Cat, Maester Aemon, Arstan Whitebeard, young Griff, Jaqen H'ghar, probably Jon, probably Mel etc. If anything this will now be tucked the back of your mind when you do rereads or when TWOW comes out. The bull (ox, cow, aurochs, bullocks) and smith (hammer, anvil etc) are given almost exclusively together for certain characters, HUGE characters. Thank you for taking a look at this, and I appreciate your feedback.

"The heart tree stood before him, a pale giant with a carved face and leaves like bloody hands."

[sarah.jenice]

OP, I see you put a lot into this theory and I think the parallels between Hephaestus and Tyrion are interesting, but I just can't agree that everything you've come up with means Tyrion is the son of Gerold Hightower and Joanna.

Hephaestus' birth is such an important part of his story. Hera was so angry at Zeus for having kids with other women that she used her godly powers to have Hephaestus on her own. When he was born, he was ugly and deformed and she hurtled him from Olympus. That is nothing like Tyrion's story.

I guess what I'm trying to point out is that George gets inspiration from a lot of different things. There might be numerous attributes of Hephaestus that are similar to Tyrion, but I'm sure you could find similarities between him and countless other fictional/historical people. It doesn't all have to mean something, and in my humble opinion, all of these similarities don't mean Gerold Hightower is Tyrion's father.

I don't know why there are so many theories that Tyrion isn't Tywin's. I think it would take away from Tyrion's story and his personal journey if Tywin isn't his father. Tywin played such a tremendous role in shaping who Tyrion is. When Tyrion finally fought back against that abuse and slayed the monster that had plagued him his whole life and essentially stole the only woman Tyrion feels will ever love him, it was a huge turning point in his life. Killing his father has had and will continue to have a huge effect on him. What would be the point of having him find out that he didn't really commit patricide because Tywin isn't his birth father? For all intents and purposes, Tywin raised him and has been the only father he has ever known, so I just don't see what it will add to the story for Tyrion to find out some long-dead kingsguard knight is his real father. He can't even tell him where whores go because he's dead.

As for tying in The Princess and the Queen, I think the point of that short story was to show us what a war fought between dragons and dragon riders will look like and possibly foreshadowing having the dragons being taken by rogue dragon riders.