Heresy 139 [World of Ice and Fire Spoilers]

[Black Crow]

Welcome to Heresy 139 the latest edition of the long-running thread that takes a sideways look at the Song of Ice and Fire.

The Heresy title arises because the thread challenges a lot of the popular assumptions about the unfolding story; such as the Wall and the Nights Watch having been created to keep the Others at bay - and that the story is going to end with Jon Snow being identified as Azor Ahai. Indeed it questions whether the Others are really the threat they appear, or perhaps more accurately whether they are indeed an icy version of a Dothraki horde, or whether the threat they pose is at once more complicated and much closer to home.

Stepping into the world of Heresy might at first appear confusing. Normally we range pretty widely and more or less in free-fall, in an effort to try and reach an understanding of what may really be happening through the resulting collision of ideas. We are in other words engaged in an exercise in chaos theory. It’s about making connections, sometimes real sometimes thematic, between east and west, between the various beliefs and types of magick - and also about reconciling the dodgy timelines. We are also an inquiring thread, exploring the many influences apparent in GRRM's work, including Conrad's Heart of Darkness, and Celtic and other mythologies. However, beyond the firm belief that things are not as they seem, there is no such thing as an accepted heretic view on Craster’s sons or any of the other topics discussed here, and the fiercest critics of some of the ideas discussed on these pages are our fellow heretics.

If new to Heresy you may want to start off with this link to Heresy 100: http://asoiaf.wester...138-heresy-100/ where you will find a series of essays specially commissioned to celebrate our century by looking closely at some of the major issues. Links are also provided at the end of each of the essays to the relevant discussion thread, and for those made of sterner stuff we also have a link to Wolfmaid's essential guide to Heresy: http://asoiaf.wester...uide-to-heresy/, which provides annotated links to all the previous editions of Heresy. Be aware however that discussion moves on...

Don’t be intimidated by the size and scope of Heresy, or by some of the ideas we’ve discussed over the years. We’re very good at talking in circles and we don’t mind going over old ground again, especially with a fresh pair of eyes, so just ask, but be patient and observe the local house rules that the debate be conducted by reference to the text, with respect for the ideas of others, and above all with great good humour.

This particular thread opens amidst the revelations of the World of Ice and Fire. A one month embargo is in place requiring the use of the Spoilers warning in the title, so if you haven’t yet indulged in a copy and would rather not know just yet – look way now.

Oh, and don’t forget Snowfyre’s health warning either:

WARNING: Mental exercise is essential for a healthy life. But if you do not already exercise your mind, you should seek the advice of your doctor prior to beginning this or any other mental activity. Not all thought exercises are suitable for everyone, and any use of your imagination may result in injury to preconceived worldviews. Consult with your doctor before embarking on theories with The Snowfyre Chorus or other self-acknowledged Heretics. If you experience pain or discomfort during consideration of any theory, stop immediately and consult your doctor. The creators, producers, participants and distributors of Heresy-related theories cannot guarantee that component ideas are proper for every individual, or "safe" for his or her preconceived narrative expectations.

[Black Crow]

OK, as I noted in my gloating post of last night, the book is is of course a compendium of what is "known" by the maesters of contemporary Westeros. In broad terms it therefore conforms pretty closely to the pre-Conquest history of Westeros as first laid out by Maester Aemon and repeated as the introduction to The Hedge Knight.

There are however some interesting wrinkles. For starters although one dissenting opinion is recorded the age of the Wall is given as 6,000 years, not 8,000 years. This is a pretty hefty knock to the "traditional" timeline as it places the building the Wall as being contemporary with the supposed arrival of the Andals in the Vale of Arryn - not that the two are suggested anywhere as being even remotely connected but it does provide further support for a general shortening of the timelines and the Andals actually tooling up no more than 2,000 years ago.

There's other stuff that bears thinking about which we'll no doubt get on to in due course, but here's the passage Alysanne referred to; one of GRRM's footnotes:

Archmaester Fomas's Lies of the Ancients - though little regarded these days for its erroneous claims regarding the founding of Valyria and certain lineal claims in the Reach and westerlands - does speculate that the Others of legend were nothing more than a tribe of the First Men, ancestors of the wildlings, that established itself in the far north. Because of the Long Night, these early wildlings were then pressured to begin a wave of conquests to the south. That they became monstrous in the tales told thereafter, according to Fomas, reflects the desire of the Night's Watch and the Starks to give themselves a more heroic identity as saviors of mankind, and not merely the beneficiaries of a struggle over dominion.

Now, as usual it comes with an in-text health warning, and we know that they are monstrous, ie; demons made of snow and ice and cold* but its very interesting that we have an Archmaester no less suggesting a human origin, in accordance with our own speculation that they started off as human allies to the children.

It also makes me wonder whether that "tribe" might have lived on the Fist before becoming changelings...

*© Stannis Baratheon

[Frey family reunion]

The idea that the Others never actually existed is an intriguing concept. And what I mean by that is the possibility that there never was a race of beings from a "land beyond" who exist as an external threat to the land of men. But instead (and this definitely connects to your Heart of Darkness thread), the Others exist as an internal boogeyman. A race of people that only truly exist in legend and in the retelling of stories. This would lead credence to the idea that the current Others are a construct or a golem. Built to resemble the Others of legend (with a bit of Knight of the Kingsguard thrown in) to maximize Wildling terror to convince a large group of people to migrate south of a giant Wall.

I've mentioned Jung's concept of the Shadow before. Our Shadows are the negative aspects of ourselves that we often sublimate or refuse to acknowledge. Jung theorized that we often project our Shadows up on other people, and sometimes completely externalize our Shadow giving it a life of its own which he called the Other.

[Urrax2]

... our own speculation that they started off as human allies to the children. ...

"Our own?" "Our"? :thumbsdown:

[Urrax2]

... the idea that the current Others are a construct or a golem. Built to resemble the Others of legend (with a bit of Knight of the Kingsguard thrown in) to maximize Wildling terror to convince a large group of people to migrate south of a giant Wall. ...

Those weren't constructs or golems that slew Ser Waymar, were they?

[Black Crow]

Those weren't constructs or golems that slew Ser Waymar, were they?

Certainly not, but what Archmaester Fomas was suggesting that the Others of the Long Night originated as First Men. Granted he's writing from the point of view that the Others of legend don't exist and never existed, but as they do and we've seen them his assertion of a possible human origin is in line with the theory [which I know you don't subscribe to] that they were human allies of the children, represented at the present time by Craster's sons.

As an aside on that we've seen in in the pre-release chapter on the Kings of Winter how the Warg King was allied with children and greenseers - from whom he presumably derived his powers, so intrinsically there's no reason why in other places men should not be allied with the old powers. I'll mention here again that suggestion in the Nights Watch chapter about the white queen. There's always been ambiguity about her and while Old Nan's reference to a "corpse queen" might be consistent with her other statement that the walkers were cold dead things, its not consistent with GRRM's insistent that they "are not dead". The new suggestion therefore that the "corpse queen" may indicate a barrowlands connection and gives point to the ambiguity of life up North and Archmaester Fomas assertion that That they became monstrous in the tales told thereafter, according to Fomas, reflects the desire of the Night's Watch and the Starks to give themselves a more heroic identity as saviors of mankind, and not merely the beneficiaries of a struggle over dominion - a struggle for dominion clearly set out in the Kings of Winter chapter.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Case in point. Never heard of Eudora Welty before and probably never would, but having now heard of her I've cone and looked her up and may begin reading. I particularly liked her mother's contention that any room in the house was somewhere to read books,

I recently received a copy of One Writer's Beginnings as a gift from the in-laws, and am looking forward to reading it. Otherwise, I've only read portions of Collected Stories... which includes the full text of The Golden Apples. It's a very nice book to have... many of her short stories are very brief, easy to read in a sitting. The Golden Apples is a bit more challenging, but no less enjoyable. I made a point of reading it straight through, and I expect you would be pleasantly surprised by the correspondence between Welty's Apples and Martin's Song. Welty's stories are set in the small town of Morgana, in Maclain County, Mississippi... a town in which the Stark and Maclain families figures prominently. Shades of Cu Chulainn and the Morrigan... as well various as various Greek myths. Well worth the read.

(Welty is often viewed as the female literary counterpart to Faulkner - he of the conflicted human heart - and The Golden Apples is in some ways a response to Faulkner's Go Down Moses and Other Stories.)

Oh, and don’t forget Snowfyre’s health warning either:

Very important to stay healthy! Let no one proceed under false impressions of "safety"... :commie:

[Skagosmagnar]

Certainly not, but what Archmaester Fomas was suggesting that the Others of the Long Night originated as First Men. Granted he's writing from the point of view that the Others of legend don't exist and never existed, but as they do and we've seen them his assertion of a possible human origin is in line with the theory [which I know you don't subscribe to] that they were human allies of the children, represented at the present time by Craster's sons.

As an aside on that we've seen in in the pre-release chapter on the Kings of Winter how the Warg King was allied with children and greenseers - from whom he presumably derived his powers, so intrinsically there's no reason why in other places men should not be allied with the old powers. I'll mention here again that suggestion in the Nights Watch chapter about the white queen. There's always been ambiguity about her and while Old Nan's reference to a "corpse queen" might be consistent with her other statement that the walkers were cold dead things, its not consistent with GRRM's insistent that they "are not dead". The new suggestion therefore that the "corpse queen" may indicate a barrowlands connection and gives point to the ambiguity of life up North and Archmaester Fomas assertion that That they became monstrous in the tales told thereafter, according to Fomas, reflects the desire of the Night's Watch and the Starks to give themselves a more heroic identity as saviors of mankind, and not merely the beneficiaries of a struggle over dominion - a struggle for dominion clearly set out in the Kings of Winter chapter.

On top of the information Black Crow provided there is also the information on page 135 which states the following:

"...A curse was placed on the great barrow that would allow no living man to rival the First King. This curse made the pretenders to the titles grow corpselike in their appearance as it sucked away their vitality and life"

This results in the big question: Who rivaled the Barrow Kings?

Answer: The Starks of Winterfell

Draw your own conclusions :)...

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Really hoping to see a copy of this World book today. I pre-ordered through Amazon for a guaranteed release day delivery (ie, today)... but as far as I can tell, it still hasn't shipped. Hopefully that's just a glitch, but we'll see. (I only pre-ordered last week.)

"Our own?" "Our"? :thumbsdown:

Certainly more than one of us has entertained such speculation. I know I have. Which is not to say that I've always considered it the most likely explanation. Or even that I do right now. Sometimes, I waffle on these things. But the idea BC highlights is certainly one we've discussed and considered in these threads for some time.

I've mentioned Jung's concept of the Shadow before. Our Shadows are the negative aspects of ourselves that we often sublimate or refuse to acknowledge. Jung theorized that we often project our Shadows up on other people, and sometimes completely externalize our Shadow giving it a life of its own which he called the Other.

This is such a great interpretive angle - I'm glad you brought it up again. "Shadows, Others, and Selves"... I think you could do an entire reread and analysis of Martin's Song using these concepts as central (and centering) themes, and you'd come away with a very powerful, very effective understanding of his use of imagery throughout the storylines. I also can't help but wonder if Martin is familiar with the Other as discussed by Emmanuel Levinas and Jaques Lacan...

Just to pull a quick comment from the Lacan Wikipedia page:

"It is the mother who first occupies the position of the big Other for the child... it is she who receives the child's primitive cries and retroactively sanctions them as a particular message". ...the child discovers that this Other is not complete because there is a "Lack (manque)" in the Other. This means that there is always a signifier missing from the trove of signifiers constituted by the Other. Lacan illustrates this incomplete Other graphically by striking a bar through the symbol A; hence another name for the castrated, incomplete Other is the "barred Other."

One might find a lot of potential questions right there, with respect to one Jon Snow...

[Frey family reunion]

Those weren't constructs or golems that slew Ser Waymar, were they?

Actually that's exactly what I'm suggesting. The Other that slew Waymar is a golem given life through the sacrifice of either one of Craster's children, or someone that predated Craster who sacrificed his own children for their creation. I think they are basically frozen air, created by an aeromancer. They are intentionally created to resemble a boogeyman that only truly exists in the collective unconscious of Westeros.

[Urrax2]

Actually that's exactly what I'm suggesting. The Other that slew Waymar is a golem given life through the sacrifice of either one of Craster's children, or someone that predated Craster who sacrificed his own children for their creation. I think they are basically frozen air, created by an aeromancer. They are intentionally created to resemble a boogeyman that only truly exists in the collective unconscious of Westeros.

Interesting. but doesn't seem to me to fit with the relevant SSMs.

[Black Crow]

Interesting. but doesn't seem to me to fit with the relevant SSMs.

Here at least we find ourselves in agreement, although it really is a matter of interpretation. I presume the SSMs you're referring to are those which treat of the Others as something living and more specifically the Tommy Patterson email in which he flatly stated that they were not dead, but rather a different kind of life. Golems or other simulacra might arguably be given life through sacrifice or some kind of transfer but although I've considered that option in the past I'm very much of the opinion that we should be looking at the simpler option of changelings.

At all events I think this strengthens the theory that however the transformation is effected there is a human origin and that the Others are integral to what's going and has been going on, rather than a random external intrusion

[Frey family reunion]

Interesting. but doesn't seem to me to fit with the relevant SSMs.

If you're talking about the SSM that says they appear to be Sidhe made of ice, it actually fits pretty well. Sidhe is Gaelic for wind.

ETA: And we know that words are wind. Words (i.e. stories) were used as a model for the creation of these "wind" golems.

[Black Crow]

On top of the information Black Crow provided there is also the information on page 135 which states the following:

"...A curse was placed on the great barrow that would allow no living man to rival the First King. This curse made the pretenders to the titles grow corpselike in their appearance as it sucked away their vitality and life"

This results in the big question: Who rivaled the Barrow Kings?

Answer: The Starks of Winterfell

Draw your own conclusions :)...

I've not read that far yet [to be honest I'm finding the history of the Targaryen kings rather tedious], but yes, however narrowly you interpret this it is consistent with the picture we're given in the Kings of Winter chapter of the old North being a place where things went bump in the night and that beastlings, wargs, skinchangers, and other horrors were not confined to the Otherlands beyond the Wall, and that the children and greenseers were not innocent bystanders to the rise of the Starks.

[Phillip Frye]

I had to miss last night, so I want to catch up:

At least up until he betrayed Eddard, he still had Cat's trust as of AGOT, so I don't think he had earned his reputation as a backstabber yet. But I understand your scepticism as to why Brandon would take the word of a person that he recently fought a duel with. But I doubt after the Harrenhall tournament it would have taken too much convincing for Brandon to believe Rhaegar was responsible. Having said that I still think someone must have convinced Brandon that Rhaegar was responsible for him to react the way he did. I doubt Brandon would have ridden to King's Landing solely based on Rhaegar's crowning of Lyanna at Harrenhall. It doesn't have to be Littlefinger, but it had to be someone. (Maester Walys perhaps?).

If Littlefinger was involved in the whole Tower of Joy fiasco, it would not have been as the seducer of Lyanna Stark. However, we know that he was present at Riverrun at the same time as Brandon. If he mentioned to Catelyn that he knew that Rhaegar had abducted Lyanna, and trusting, easily-manipulated Catelyn then turned and told Brandon, it would explain why Brandon ran off to the Red Keep so quickly with his bloody sword in hand. Then, the wounded Littlefinger would be shipped off to the Vale during the ensuing melee, missing all of the danger, and later being reunited with his most loyal pawn, Crazy Lysa.

The real question is: Martin has been at great pains to tell us about all of the people at the Harrenhal Tourney, but I don't recall ever hearing anything about whether House Tully and its retainers (including Littlefinger) attended. If Littlefinger was at the tournament, then he could have lied about overhearing something that Rhaegar said, confirming suspicions regarding Rhaegar crowning Lyanna as the Queen of Love and Beauty.

[Skagosmagnar]

I've not read that far yet [to be honest I'm finding the history of the Targaryen kings rather tedious], but yes, however narrowly you interpret this it is consistent with the picture we're given in the Kings of Winter chapter of the old North being a place where things went bump in the night and that beastlings, wargs, skinchangers, and other horrors were not confined to the Otherlands beyond the Wall, and that the children and greenseers were not innocent bystanders to the rise of the Starks.

Not to forget that it makes sense in two other ways:

- The swords guarding the graves of the dead Starks in the cripts

- Lady Dustins interest in the cripts (The Dustins are said to be descendants of the Barrow Kings, I know, Lady Dustin is not a Dustin by birth, but anyway interesting)

[Phillip Frye]

Regarding Black Crow's theory that the tower was the location for the OK Corral some ways up the road from Starfall, that theory is elegant and well constructed, and I am 90% going along with it. However, if the importance of that site was only as the place for confrontation, then why would Prince Rhaegar refer to it as a tower of joy? That is the big gaping hole in the theory.

However, Martin takes pains to note that Starfall also has towers (one of which overlooks the sea, specifically the Palestone Sword). What if Ned is mixing up the towers in his fever dream? Instead, what if the tower of joy is at Starfall, where Rhaegar either successfully romanced Lyanna (one theory) or implanted her with Targaryen seed (another theory)? That would close the gap in Black Crow's theory. It would also display masterful misdirection, leaving readers babbling about a watchtower on the road for years when the real issue is the occurrences at Starfall.

[Phillip Frye]

Hey, BC - have you seen this?: http://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/2kgfy7/spoilers_all_ama_with_authors_of_the_world_of_ice/

Little jab in there from Elio and Linda:

2. Fan theories: the one you like the most, the one that annoys you the most, and the one you wish would be true.

A: ...Most annoying: Anything with "heresy" in the title. Any theory that makes tenuous claims by making esoteric comparisons to mythology (sorry, guys, George really doesn't work that way). Any "theory" that is simply a claim that can't be 100% disproved but otherwise has no support but the basest conjecture...

I choose to interpret this statement as evidence the Elio and Linda do us the courtesy of following Heresy closely.

[Phillip Frye]

However, I must confess that we are clearly doing this wrong from the standpoint of the forum originators. We must clearly change our ways and become more like the rest of the forum.

Therefore, I propose an immediate change of topic to conform with the rest of the forum topics.

I will kick it off. Tell me, who is your favorite ASOIAF character?

Mine is Jon Snow. He's so dreamy. Plus, I heard a rumor that he might be secretly Targaryen. Wouldn't that be super-neat?

[Black Crow]

I still vote for a discussion as to who is the fastest gun in Westeros.