[TWoIaF spoilers] The Death of the Dragons ...

[Lord Varys]

Alys Rivers does not have a dragon.

[Skinchanging Sweetrobin]

It's in the Vale section of the WoIaF. Nettles and Sheepstealer founded the Burned Men.

Hmm certainly a possibility. To be fair, it only says a witch and a dragon founded the Burned Men. But why would both Maester Gyldayn and Yandel say that Sheepstealer disappeared when she is hanging in the Vale? Sheepstealer was huge (and stole sheep). You'd think people would remark about him flying around stealing sheep. It makes the witch's dragon seem like it was small and isolated dragon (perhaps flightless).

I'm still on board with Sheepstealer being the skeleton in the Red Waste.

[Colonel Green]

But why would both Maester Gyldayn and Yandel say that Sheepstealer disappeared when she is hanging in the Vale?

Because they don't know that it's Sheepstealer (Yandel, in fact, seems to think the whole "fire witch" thing is a myth).

[Veltigar]

Hmm certainly a possibility. To be fair, it only says a witch and a dragon founded the Burned Men. But why would both Maester Gyldayn and Yandel say that Sheepstealer disappeared when she is hanging in the Vale? Sheepstealer was huge (and stole sheep). You'd think people would remark about him flying around stealing sheep. It makes the witch's dragon seem like it was small and isolated dragon (perhaps flightless).

The Burned Men from the books are the most feared of the Mountain Clans. They are probably so aggresive because they had to feed the dragon on top of the human members of their tribe.

[RumHam]

Hmm certainly a possibility. To be fair, it only says a witch and a dragon founded the Burned Men. But why would both Maester Gyldayn and Yandel say that Sheepstealer disappeared when she is hanging in the Vale? Sheepstealer was huge (and stole sheep). You'd think people would remark about him flying around stealing sheep. It makes the witch's dragon seem like it was small and isolated dragon (perhaps flightless).

I'm still on board with Sheepstealer being the skeleton in the Red Waste.

That she was last seen flying over the Bay of Crabs supports the idea that she would be in the Vale. Look at a map. Gyldayn may have thought she crashed into the ocean, but Yandel says nobody knew where she went until years after. So he does know what became of her.

[Maia]

So, was Morning the little green female with withered wings seen by Ser Arlan of Pennytree when he was young? Was Rhaena separated from her/dead at this point?

I am also really curious as to what became of Silverwing. If she had been killed by a dragonslayer, there should be a well-known story/legend about the event, no? I suspect that she was also poisoned by the maesters, myself. As we have seen, dragons are attracted by blood and all over free grub, so once they knew where she lived, it wouldn't have been that difficult.

[Skinchanging Sweetrobin]

That she was last seen flying over the Bay of Crabs supports the idea that she would be in the Vale. Look at a map. Gyldayn may have thought she crashed into the ocean, but Yandel says nobody knew where she went until years after. So he does know what became of her.

So, he knows, but he doesn't say? If he knows, why wouldn't he mention that the witch was Nettles or the dragon Sheepstealer? A bit weird. He thinks the Vale witch is a myth, after all.

Drogon had a pretty wide hunting area and was seen all over. Wouldn't Sheepstealer be the same? People in the Vale would comment on the dragon in their skies. But we don't have that.

The other thing is the discovery of the knowledge. We know that the last known dragon died during the reign of Aegon III which ended in 157. In fact, the Citadel acolytes say this is well known. So, this witch's dragon, if real, needed to die before that.

But, here's the issue: Gyldayn's writing is likely after 157. So Gyldayn writes that the Dance was the dying of dragons, which means he is writing after the last dragon has died. And he uses Eustace, Mushroom, Munkun and other's writen accounts, meaning its likely after all of their deaths as well. And he speaks of the war being like no other, which implies there have been others since (maybe the Blackfyre Rebellion?)

Whatever the case, Gyldayn doesn't know the fate of Sheepstealer so its a mystery at least when he is writing.

Yandel, though, claims he does know. But Yandel also claims that he thinks the Vale witch a myth. So, it seems that sometime after Glydayn's writing and before Yandel's, the fate of Sheepstealer was revealed, but that it wasn't the Vale witch story, which Yandel doesn't believe.

Now, here are a few possibilities:

1) Nettles goes to Essos (maybe the Red Waste) and eventually dies. The story takes a while to get back to Westeros. Thus, Gyldayn misses it, but Yandel catches it. Perhaps a traveling Maester eventually discovered Sheepstealer's fate.

2) Nettle hides in Westeros with a heavily injured Sheepstealer (maybe the Vale). Eventually, their bodies are found. Thus, Gyldayn misses it, but Yandel catches it. Perhaps the smallfolk eventually find the bodies. The myth of the Burned Men's origin grows from the discovery.

3) A loyalist takes in Nettles and Sheepstealer and hides her. Only years later, do they feel the political environment is safe to reveal her fate.

4) Nettles goes to the God's Eye. Howland Reed or another visiting Crannogman eventually learns of her fate and tells the world.

[Free Northman Reborn]

So, he knows, but he doesn't say? If he knows, why wouldn't he mention that the witch was Nettles or the dragon Sheepstealer? A bit weird. He thinks the Vale witch is a myth, after all.

Drogon had a pretty wide hunting area and was seen all over. Wouldn't Sheepstealer be the same? People in the Vale would comment on the dragon in their skies. But we don't have that.

The other thing is the discovery of the knowledge. We know that the last known dragon died during the reign of Aegon III which ended in 157. In fact, the Citadel acolytes say this is well known. So, this witch's dragon, if real, needed to die before that.

But, here's the issue: Gyldayn's writing is likely after 157. So Gyldayn writes that the Dance was the dying of dragons, which means he is writing after the last dragon has died. And he uses Eustace, Mushroom, Munkun and other's writen accounts, meaning its likely after all of their deaths as well. And he speaks of the war being like no other, which implies there have been others since (maybe the Blackfyre Rebellion?)

Whatever the case, Gyldayn doesn't know the fate of Sheepstealer so its a mystery at least in 157.

Yandel, though, claims he does know. But Yandel also claims that he thinks the Vale witch a myth. So, it seems that sometime after Glydayn's writing, the fate of Sheepstealer was revealed, but that it wasn't the Vale witch story.

Now, here are a few possibilities:

1) Nettles goes to Essos (maybe the Red Waste) and eventually dies. The story takes a while to get back to Westeros. Thus, Gyldayn misses it, but Yandel catches it. Perhaps a traveling Maester eventually discovered Sheepstealer's fate.

2) Nettle hides is Westeros with a heavily injured Sheepstealer (maybe the Vale). Eventually, their bodies are found. Thus, Gyldayn misses it, but Yandel catches it. Perhaps the smallfolk eventually find the bodies. The myth of the Burned Men's origin grows from the discovery.

3) A loyalist takes in Nettles and Sheepstealer and hides her. Only years later, do they feel the political environment is safe to reveal her fate.

4) Nettles goes to the God's Eye. Howland Reed or another visiting Crannogman eventually learns of her fate and tells the world.

What about the simplest explanation? Nettles goes to the remote Mountains of Moon first, and spends some years there, birthing the legend of the Fire Witch. Then she departs again, and travels on to some other destination, where her exploits and eventual fate is later recorded.

[Skinchanging Sweetrobin]

What about the simplest explanation? Nettles goes to the remote Mountains of Moon first, and spends some years there, birthing the legend of the Fire Witch. Then she departs again, and travels on to some other destination, where her exploits and eventual fate is later recorded.

I like it!

That would make sense. A story of the witch grows, but when forces go to find her, she's already gone making it seem like a myth. Then, her fate in Essos is discovered by a Westerosi traveler (maybe a Maester) much, much later.

It would eliminate the need for two dragons (one for the Vale and one for the Waste).

[Free Northman Reborn]

I like it!

That would make sense. A story of the witch grows, but when forces go to find her, she's already gone making it seem like a myth. Then, her fate in Essos is discovered by a Westerosi traveler (maybe a Maester) much, much later.

It would eliminate the need for two dragons (one for the Vale and one for the Waste).

I've never understood the obsession with the dragon skeleton in the Red Waste. The place is just next to Valyria. The most likely explanation for the skeleton is that it is a 400+ year old Valyrian dragon skeleton, that has lain there undisturbed in this isolated spot.

[Lord Varys]

Maia,

more dragons hatched during the reigns of Aegon III. The last two dragons hatched on Dragonstone. Morning did not, for all we know. Rhaena was in the Vale.

My guess is that Munkun implemented a plan to eradicate the dragons during his time as regent (and eventually sole regent and Hand), and began it by poisoning the older dragons (i.e. most likely Morning). If he was very subtle, then the poison really affected the offspring more than the older it was administered to.

Morning was neither stunted nor otherwise sickly. She was merely too small to fight in the Dance.

Silverwing could have been killed by a dragonslayer. Just because we don't know it does not mean it did not happen.

Gyldayn does not actually state that Nettles disappeared forever during the Dance. It could just refer to the war itself. Or Gyldayn was citing a contemporary source in TPatQ which is not credited and thus things are confusing. There exist a lot of different deaths for Lyman Beesbury, too.

[Moondancer]

In my copy the dragons name is simply Morning... ?

:huh: Well, I was spoiled for that piece of info... It's similar enough. :D

[Skinchanging Sweetrobin]

I've never understood the obsession with the dragon skeleton in the Red Waste. The place is just next to Valyria. The most likely explanation for the skeleton is that it is a 400+ year old Valyrian dragon skeleton, that has lain there undisturbed in this isolated spot.

It would be covered with dirt and sand if it were 400 years old. Let's keep in mind that the cities of the waste have bones lying out and iron weapons. Maybe the cities and the dragon have different stories, but bones crumble and becomes covered. Iron rusts.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

I've always believed that Nettles used blood magic (all those sheep whose throats she cut) to temporarily bind Sheepstealer each time she rode. The fact that the Burned Men legend refers to a witch associated with a dragon fits that. I also still think it is very possible that Nettles was a glamoured Leaf during her 200 year walkabout. What did Nettles ever do that could cause anyone to think of her as a witch, if there wasn't something else atypical about her?

[Spring Bass]

Cannibal is probably dead by the events in the books even if nothing specifically killed him/her/it. Dragons aren't immortal - Balerion died of old age at around 200-ish years old (he was one of the five dragons brought from Valyria with the Targaryens), and presumably the other four Valyrian dragons died from old age as well.

That's got to be one of the reasons why they went extinct in most places after the Doom. They're never going to have large population numbers to begin with, and thinning them out reduces the chance that they'll be able to mate and lay eggs.

[ADB]

It would be covered with dirt and sand if it were 400 years old. Let's keep in mind that the cities of the waste have bones lying out and iron weapons. Maybe the cities and the dragon have different stories, but bones crumble and becomes covered. Iron rusts.

Why would it be covered? Or crumble? Deserts are fantastic at preserving things; we've found natural mummies thousands of years old that way. I think this is reading way too much into a bit of added scenery.

[scotcat]

We don't know for sure how long the dragons actually live for. It's entirely possible that the untamed dragons - or ones that spent a great deal of time riderless - have a longer lifespan. We know that the 'domestic' dragons tended to be smaller than their wild counterparts, so could they live longer as well?

As for the Nettles/Sheepstealer fate - who's to say that she wasn't the one who founded the Burned men, went to Essos and dies there, making Sheepstealer the dragon skeleton. There's nothing that states explicitly that the two of them were killed at the end of the dance, we only know that the two were seen flying off, so she could well have gone to Essos (via the Vale).

[HexMachina]

And we don't get the Syrax story.

We get that in the Princess and the Queen, that's why. Joffrey rode his mother's dragon to the dragonpit but was thrown off. Syrax was then killed in the Pit, if memory serves me correctly.

Silverwing could have been killed by a dragonslayer. Just because we don't know it does not mean it did not happen.

Well she/he was in the Reach, irrc...

It would be covered with dirt and sand if it were 400 years old. Let's keep in mind that the cities of the waste have bones lying out and iron weapons. Maybe the cities and the dragon have different stories, but bones crumble and becomes covered. Iron rusts.

Just think of Dorne. Its mentioned that bones surface in the Red Sands all the time, from wars long gone.

[RumHam]

We get that in the Princess and the Queen, that's why. Joffrey rode his mother's dragon to the dragonpit but was thrown off. Syrax was then killed in the Pit, if memory serves me correctly.

I think he meant the story from Dance where Tyrion proves he's better read than the half-maester. I think it was a Swann who tried to hide behind a reflective shield and kill Syrax.

[Lord Varys]

Yeah, that's the story. Ser Byron Swann tried to pull a Serwyn and got fried.