Historic foreshadowing / history repeating itself

[RumHam]

Oh I guess I forgot that little detail.

[michiel deprez]

I think that what happend To Robb and what happend to Harren the black is also ( in a certain form ) history repeting itself.

Robb and Harren both die in the riverlands

they are both kings

they both have a (half)brother who is lord commander of the night's watch, and both Jon and lord commander Hoare had to see how their house got destroyed (and their vows kept them from going to war )

both house stark as house Hoare got destroyed over night inside a castle

Btw: I'm new to the forum :)

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I think that what happend To Robb and what happend to Harren the black is also ( in a certain form ) history repeting itself.

Robb and Harren both die in the riverlands

they are both kings

they both have a (half)brother who is lord commander of the night's watch, and both Jon and lord commander Hoare had to see how their house got destroyed (and their vows kept them from going to war )

both house stark as house Hoare got destroyed over night inside a castle

Btw: I'm new to the forum :)

Welcome! :)

Whilst there are indeed parallels between Robb and Harren, I would have to disagree on an important aspect... Whilst Harren's line ended with his "meet-up" with Balerion, House Stark continues, through Arya, Sansa, Bran and Rickon..

[Mithras]

Jon was away with the wildlings when Winterfell was sacked and Robb was slain.

[Red Tiger]

I'd rather hoped that what was done to Elia and her two children was unique.

But, some absolutely vile things have been done to Targaryen children, and mothers, in the past. Helaena was forced to choose which of her children would die. The survivor was then torn apart by a mob. And, her daughter was thrown onto iron spikes, to die in agony. Helaena may have been thrown to her death.

Prince Viserys was tortured to death by his step-mother, over *nine days*.

Prince Aegon had to watch his mother being fed to a dragon.

Aegon IV gave his own daughter a venereal disease.

The fuck? Where is this mentioned?

[Rhaegal Targaryen]

The fuck? Where is this mentioned?

I don't think this has been stated but i wouldn't call it unlikely.

[Ramsay's Penguins]

I don't think this has been stated but i wouldn't call it unlikely.

Aegon does Falena Stokeworth and marries her to Lucas Lothson when he gets bored. Later he gets it on with Jeyne Lothson, the twos daughter, who is thought to be his own, and if it is thought and Yandel dismisses it, it's probably true.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Aegon does Falena Stokeworth and marries her to Lucas Lothson when he gets bored. Later he gets it on with Jeyne Lothson, the twos daughter, who is thought to be his own, and if it is thought and Yandel dismisses it, it's probably true.

It would depend... Aegon frequently slept with Falena in between 149 AC and 153 AC. Jeyne was born only in 164 AC, some 11 years after Aegon's frequent visits stopped.

Though it is not unthinkable that Aegon kept visiting Falena every now and then... Especially as his mistress between 161 AC and 171 AC was Bellegere Otherys.... She wasn't constantly available for him, so a visit to Harrenhal might have been on his mind during this period.

Also, to keep the story straight ;) Aegon has an affair with Falena from 149 AC to 151 AC, when they are discovered by a KG knight. Prince Viserys then married Falena to his own master-at-arms, Lucas Lothston, and next convinced the King (which, in 153 AC, will have been Aegon III), to grant Lucas the seat of Harrenhal, effectively removing Falena from court. Aegon visited Harrenhal frequently two more years (so until 153 AC).

[The Red Widow of Coldmoat]

Aegon IV's affair with Bellegere Otherys started when he was sent off to Braavos by Baelor to keep him away from Naerys while she recovered from childbirthing complications. The question really is how long was Aegon off in Braavos, and how much opportunity would he have to meet up with Falena Stokeworth? It does seem that between Aegon being sent away in 161 and Daemon's birth in 170 (and the events leading to that), Aegon's whereabouts are unaccounted for.

As a side note, we're told Baelor sent Aegon to Braavos in 161, which is the same year Baelor took the throne. Presumably, he had to do this pretty much right after he took the throne, right? Baelor took his march to Dorne, which clearly had to take quite some time, and then was away from King's Landing for another half year or so after he got to Storm's End. It would also make sense to send a diplomatic mission to Braavos after Daeron's death as Daeron had been working to arrange a marriage to the Sealord's daughter.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Aegon IV's affair with Bellegere Otherys started when he was sent off to Braavos by Baelor to keep him away from Naerys while she recovered from childbirthing complications. The question really is how long was Aegon off in Braavos, and how much opportunity would he have to meet up with Falena Stokeworth? It does seem that between Aegon being sent away in 161 and Daemon's birth in 170 (and the events leading to that), Aegon's whereabouts are unaccounted for.

As a side note, we're told Baelor sent Aegon to Braavos in 161, which is the same year Baelor took the throne. Presumably, he had to do this pretty much right after he took the throne, right? Baelor took his march to Dorne, which clearly had to take quite some time, and then was away from King's Landing for another half year or so after he got to Storm's End. It would also make sense to send a diplomatic mission to Braavos after Daeron's death as Daeron had been working to arrange a marriage to the Sealord's daughter.

Presumably, Aegon was send away after Baelor returned... It would seem Daeron's death occured early in the year, as Baelor, after his walk, was unconscious for half a year, and only afterwards imprisoned his sisters (an event which still occured in 161 AC).

Aegon's relationship with Bellegere lasted for 10 years (161 - 171), but he won't have been at Braavos for ten years... Bellegere was a captain, and Aegon lived at either KL or Dragonstone, which both have a port ;)

[The Red Widow of Coldmoat]

Presumably, Aegon was send away after Baelor returned... It would seem Daeron's death occured early in the year, as Baelor, after his walk, was unconscious for half a year, and only afterwards imprisoned his sisters (an event which still occured in 161 AC).

Aegon's relationship with Bellegere lasted for 10 years (161 - 171), but he won't have been at Braavos for ten years... Bellegere was a captain, and Aegon lived at either KL or Dragonstone, which both have a port ;)

We don't have an exact date on when Baelor put his sisters in the Maidenvault, do we? The closest we have is a mention of their "decade of isolation" when Baelor died. That doesn't necessarily mean it was strictly ten years, I don't think. I could see it being closer to nine years and still being described as a decade. In fact, we know that at the maximum it had to be less than ten years, strictly speaking. Baelor didn't confine his sisters until after he came back from Dorne and Baelor himself seems to have died early in 171 (as he'd been fasting for 40 days and this was apparently shortly following Daemon's birth, which was in 170). Baelor's actual walk to Sunspear, then negotiation with the Prince of Dorne, then walk back to Wyl (and Aemon's carrying Baelor to Blackhaven) had to have taken months, didn't it? And it was apparently "half a year and more" at Storm's End before Baelor could return to King's Landing.

And yes, I agree that clearly Aegon did not spend the entirety of his relationship with Bellegere in Braavos, especially as Daemon Blackfyre was born in 170. Still, the main question is whether Aegon would've had the free time and opportunity to visit Harrenhal around 163-164 (edit: or for Falena Stokeworth to visit Aegon whereever he was, I suppose)

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

We don't have an exact date on when Baelor put his sisters in the Maidenvault, do we? The closest we have is a mention of their "decade of isolation" when Baelor died. That doesn't necessarily mean it was strictly ten years, I don't think. I could see it being closer to nine years and still being described as a decade. In fact, we know that at the maximum it had to be less than ten years, strictly speaking. Baelor didn't confine his sisters until after he came back from Dorne and Baelor himself seems to have died early in 171 (as he'd been fasting for 40 days and this was apparently shortly following Daemon's birth, which was in 170). Baelor's actual walk to Sunspear, then negotiation with the Prince of Dorne, then walk back to Wyl (and Aemon's carrying Baelor to Blackhaven) had to have taken months, didn't it? And it was apparently "half a year and more" at Storm's End before Baelor could return to King's Landing.

And yes, I agree that clearly Aegon did not spend the entirety of his relationship with Bellegere in Braavos, especially as Daemon Blackfyre was born in 170. Still, the main question is whether Aegon would've had the free time and opportunity to visit Harrenhal around 163-164 (edit: or for Falena Stokeworth to visit Aegon whereever he was, I suppose)

We sort of do. Semi-canon, we have gotten an indication of ages of the three girls from when they were imprisoned. As GRRM usually doesn't seem to be doing difficult with namedays when listing stuff from history, that would place the imprisonment in 161 AC

The eldest daughter of King Aegon III was sixteen when her brother Baelor ascended the Iron Throne, dissolved his marriage to her (which had been celebrated but never consummated), and confined her and her sisters to their own apartments in the Red Keep, soon known as the Maidenvault.

Princess Elaena was only eleven when locked away in the Maidenvault. At that age she was a skinny thing, the runt of the litter, but she had more than a little of her sister Daena's wilfullness even then, as she would prove when she grew older.

[direwolves_and_dragons]

There are a number of similarities which appear between Euron and Harwyn (history travelling in Essos to return to rule the iron islands and alleged kinslaying of their brothers).

I'm not sure what it foreshadows exactly, perhaps just ironborn invasion of Westeros which is pretty clear anyway and possibly the doom of the Greyjoy House in the green lands rather than their home, as Harwyn's grandson faced at Harrenhal.

I just find the alleged killing of Harwyn's brother via a Faceless Man and the prevalence of that theory around Balons death to suggest there is some important link.

Hadn't seen the faceless man point mentioned in the thread but I'd imagine I'm not the only one?

[Fire Eater]

There are a number of similarities which appear between Euron and Harwyn (history travelling in Essos to return to rule the iron islands and alleged kinslaying of their brothers).

I'm not sure what it foreshadows exactly, perhaps just ironborn invasion of Westeros which is pretty clear anyway and possibly the doom of the Greyjoy House in the green lands rather than their home, as Harwyn's grandson faced at Harrenhal.

Harren died fighting against a man named "Aegon" who rode a black dragon and wielded Blackfyre. Remind you of anyone?

[Red Tiger]

Harren died fighting against a man named "Aegon" who rode a black dragon and wielded Blackfyre. Remind you of anyone?

Im sorry, I don't get it

[Fire Eater]

Im sorry, I don't get it

Anyone introduced in ADwD who is connected to black dragon, wielding Blackfyre and named "Aegon."

[Red Tiger]

Anyone introduced in ADwD who is connected to black dragon, wielding Blackfyre and named "Aegon."

Yeah, I thought you might have meant that, but I think it would be pretty lame, which is sorta what I think of Faegon's whole reveal.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Anyone introduced in ADwD who is connected to black dragon, wielding Blackfyre and named "Aegon."

To be honest, Aegon does not have Blackfyre yet, nor a black dragon.

[Red Tiger]

To be honest, Aegon does not have Blackfyre yet, nor a black dragon.

I think he's alluding to Aegon BEING a Blackfyre and the standard for the Blackfyres is a black dragon.

[Mithras]

To be honest, Aegon does not have Blackfyre yet, nor a black dragon.

He is the black dragon and he has Blackfyre in those chests ;)