[WoIaF Spoilers] Oily Stone: Yeen, Asshai, The Wall, 5 Forts, Hinges of the World

[Ulthosian Stark]

Mel seems like a slave controlled by her ruby collar and she does not know it.

Or that piece of stone isn't a ruby its the piece of the Bloodstone, with her own Obsession on blood containing power and the power of sacrifice I wouldn't be too surprised

That'd make more sense actually, a chip off the stone is red when cut thin bit the whole thing looks black

[barristan-b]

I think GRRM has explicitly said that the irregular seasons have a magical cause, rather than a physical one. So I agree with you that it probably wasn't a natural disaster that disturbed the balance of the seasons.

If the black stone is involved, it's likely not the stone itself but what people did with it that caused problems, IMO. Which could include building the Five Forts (and the Wall, even if it's not of black stone- though who knows what's under all that ice), but I suspect that a huge magical city like Asshai, and the things that happened there, had a part as well. If I had to guess, I would say that whatever wiped out this ancient race (or dispersed it, as you suggest, which I actually really like) also threw the seasons out of balance. Because it had to have been a Big Event. Much bigger than the building of a structure, and much bigger even than the Doom of Valyria, since it apparently was planet-wide.

I'm liking this apprroach better than my own. Thanks for clarifying the seasonal rift cause per GRRM.

The dispersal idea just makes sense to me considering where the pre-Yi Tish Golden Empire is presumably located relative to where we find these black oily stones. I think the guy who in myth is the Bloodstone Emperor is the one who helped cause the season change by his use of the stones. This could have propelled blood magic and began in the mountains around Stygai to Asshai.

Ahhhh this just tripped me out

Saw the one poster say Mel doesn't have a glass candle.

Well what if she does, but she doesn't know it is what it is and refers to it as some sort of a part of a whole larger powerful stone.

Like the actual Bloodstone worshipped by the Bloodstone Emperor! If he was corrupted by it where did it go? Maybe the place where everything drinks sunlight there's no children people walk around masked and practice dark arts openly etc etc

Because you gotta think, if Dawns material came from the sky, and so did this Bloodstone and the whole concept of balance within the series, wouldn't something equally as "evil" have to fall somewhere else?

Could be why only glass candle pieces have power like they do, or they were dipped in the molten Bloodstone, like a candle gets dipped and molded.

If the Bloodstone is R'hollor itself..... The whole you can't have shadow without light thing might be true, and its been trying to work its way towards Westeros all this time, just as Dawn was passed down...

AH HA!! The series is the prequel to the Dark Crystal!!!! The Skexies and Old Ones combine to create ice-like but beautiful beings!!! Sjjdjxhdjedn *aneurism*

Jk

I think since IMO there are no actual "gods", that blood magic stems from this black stone and how it is used. The same applies to obsidian but the oily black can be used in even more powerful manners. It'd be crazy if R'hllor is the essentially the result/echo of the Bloodstone Emperor's tampering with it. If people can draw the same power as weirwoods through glass candles, I wonder what can be done when an entire city is built from it a la Asshai. There are natural magical elements to the planet and foreign magical elements. It's like there is the fire & ice...and the element that tampers with it: oily-black stone.

[MaesterSam]

I'm liking this apprroach better than my own. Thanks for clarifying the seasonal rift cause per GRRM.

The dispersal idea just makes sense to me considering where the pre-Yi Tish Golden Empire is presumably located relative to where we find these black oily stones. I think the guy who in myth is the Bloodstone Emperor is the one who helped cause the season change by his use of the stones. This could have propelled blood magic and began in the mountains around Stygai to Asshai.

I think since IMO there are no actual "gods", that blood magic stems from this black stone and how it is used. The same applies to obsidian but the oily black can be used in even more powerful manners. It'd be crazy if R'hllor is the essentially the result/echo of the Bloodstone Emperor's tampering with it. If people can draw the same power as weirwoods through glass candles, I wonder what can be done when an entire city is built from it a la Asshai. There are natural magical elements to the planet and foreign magical elements. It's like there is the fire & ice...and the element that tampers with it: oily-black stone.

I agree with the bolded part. The location of pre-Yi Ti is smack dab in the center of all these haunted ruins. And yes to blood magic originating in Asshai! Where else?

As for the other bit... WOW. Asshai being made entirely of the oily black stone could well explain its power.(A power that, in the right hands, would be unimaginable, given the entire city is made of this magical material!) It never occurred to me that the buildings and roads themselves were sources of magical power, but it's the perfect explanation.

It happens to also explain why, back in Westeros, the children of the forest would have called down the Hammer of the Waters from Moat Cailin- it would be the most magically powerful location in Westeros, even as a ruin.

And why we see two types of architecture (fused stone and huge stone blocks) using the black stone: it's not about the style, it's about the material. Maybe two different offshoots of the original pre-Yi Ti culture built in different ways, but remembered the power of the black stone.

Very cool theory! :cheers:

[Rhaechyll Targaryen]

Mel seems like a slave controlled by her ruby collar and she does not know it.

Could she be being controlled by the Great Other?

[Mithras]

Could she be being controlled by the Great Other?

I don't think there is a Great Other. Mel's hidden master might be a shadowbinder from Asshai.

[Rhaechyll Targaryen]

I wonder if Mel's powers are stronger at the Wall because the Wall is made of that oily black stone as has been suggested. At first I thought that Mel's powers were stronger because she was closer to the Great Other assuming there is such a thing. (I actually think there might be and think it's weird that we don't know the Great Other's name but know R'hllor's. Doesn't think indicate that we'll learn it at some point? Unless of course R'hllor turns out to be the Great Other--entirely possible IMO.)

[aryagonnakill#2]

^ We do know his name, it's Hodor.

That's not canon just my opinion.

[Mithras]

Oldtown was built in stone, and all its streets were cobbled, down to the meanest alley. The city was never more beautiful than at break of day. West of the Honeywine, the Guildhalls lined the bank like a row of palaces. Upriver, the domes and towers of the Citadel rose on both sides of the river, connected by stone bridges crowded with halls and houses. Downstream, below the black marble walls and arched windows of the Starry Sept, the manses of the pious clustered like children gathered round the feet of an old dowager.

The pious are likened to widow’s sons (masonic reference). They are the residents of the Starry Sept which was the center of the Faith for a long time. George made several homages to Lovecraft including the Church of Starry Wisdom. Arya hears the acolytes of the Church of Starry Wisdom doing their prayers in Braavos and they are located close to the Red Temple. In Oldtown, the bells of the septs (including the Starry Sept) announcing the dawn are joined by the singing from the Red Temple.

(Many scholars count the Bloodstone Emperor as the first High Priest of the sinister Church of Starry Wisdom, which persists to this day in many port cities throughout the known world).

However, maester Yandel says that the Church of Starry wisdom has a sinister reputation.

Here is some info about the Church of Starry Wisdom and Nyarlathotep from Lovecraft universe in spoiler tags:

The Church of Starry Wisdom, or Starry Wisdom Cult, is a cult that worships Nyarlathotep in his aspect as the Haunter of the Dark. The cult was founded in Providence, Rhode Island circa 1844 by Professor Enoch Bowen, a renowned archeologist and occultist. The cult used a sacred relic known as the Shining Trapezohedron to summon the Haunter of the Dark, who demanded outrageous sacrifices in return for limitless knowledge of the universe.

Although the cult was publicly denounced by the other local churches, it nonetheless grew to have a membership of around 200 members. Mysterious disappearances in the area brought the cult under public scrutiny. After run-ins with both local citizens and the municipal government, the church closed and 181 people left Providence for unknown reasons. However, there is veiled evidence that they were dealt a more summary kind of justice than banishment.

The church held an extensive library of occult literature. The majority of these books was removed by one Doctor Dexter after the church was raided following the mysterious death of Robert Blake.

Though the Providence sect was officially disbanded in 1877, the Church of Starry Wisdom has appeared in other places including Yorkshire, England (1880 to 1890), Chicago, Illinois (where it was known as the Celestial Providence sect, but was later disbanded by the Great Chicago Fire of 1871), Arkham, Massachusetts, (during the 1920s), and more recently in San Francisco (though the group was reputedly destroyed by arson). A few contemporary sects may still exist in Canada. As recently as the 1970s the cult was present on Bioko (Fernando Poo) in Equatorial Guinea.

Nyarlathotep, known to many by his epithet "The Crawling Chaos," is an Outer God in the Cthulhu Mythos. He is the creation of H. P. Lovecraft and first appeared in his prose poem "Nyarlathotep" (1920). Nyarlathotep appears in numerous subsequent stories by Lovecraft, and is also featured in the works of other authors, as well as in role-playing games based on the Cthulhu Mythos.

Nyarlathotep differs from other Outer Gods in a number of ways. Most of them are exiled to the stars, like Yog-Sothoth and Hastur, or are sleeping and dreaming like Cthulhu; Nyarlathotep, however, is active and frequently walks the Earth in the guise of a human being, usually a tall, slim, joyous man. He has "a thousand" other forms, most reputed to be quite horrific and sanity-blasting.

Most of the Outer Gods have their own cults serving them; Nyarlathotep seems to serve these cults and take care of their affairs in their absence. Most Outer Gods use strange alien languages, while Nyarlathotep uses human languages and can be mistaken for a human being. Finally, most of them are all powerful yet evidently without clear purpose, yet Nyarlathotep seems to be deliberately deceptive and manipulative, and even uses propaganda to achieve his goals. In this regard, he is probably the most human-like among them.

Nyarlathotep enacts the will of the Outer Gods, and is their messenger, heart and soul; he is also the servant of Azathoth, whose fitful, spastic wishes he immediately fulfills. Unlike the other Outer Gods, causing madness is more important and enjoyable than death and destruction to Nyarlathotep. It is suggested by some that he will destroy the human race and possibly the earth as well.

Nyarlathotep's first appearance is in the eponymous short story by Lovecraft (1920), in which he is described as a "tall, swarthy man" who resembles an Egyptian Pharaoh. In this story he wanders the earth, seemingly gathering legions of followers through his demonstrations of strange and seemingly magical instruments, the narrator of the story among them. These followers lose awareness of the world around them, and through the narrator's increasingly unreliable accounts the reader gets a sense of the world's utter collapse. The story ends with the narrator as part of an army of servants for Nyarlathotep.

Nyarlathotep (usually referred to in conjunction with the subnomen, "The Crawling Chaos") subsequently appears as a major character in The Dream Quest of Unknown Kadath (1926/27), in which he again manifests in the form of an Egyptian Pharaoh when he confronts protagonist Randolph Carter. He is here depicted as an avatar of the Other Gods, executing their will on Earth and in Dreamland.

The twenty-first sonnet of Lovecraft's poem-cycle Fungi from Yuggoth (1929/30) – not to be confused with the entities identified as the fungi from Yuggoth, or Mi-Go in "The Whisperer in Darkness" – is dedicated to Nyarlathotep, and is substantially a poetic retelling of the short story "Nyarlathotep."

In "The Dreams in the Witch House" (1933), Nyarlathotep appears to Walter Gilman and witch Keziah Mason (who has made a pact with the entity) in the form of "the 'Black Man' of the witch-cult," a black-skinned avatar of the Devil associated with New England witchcraft lore.

Finally, in "The Haunter of the Dark" (1936), the being of pure darkness dwelling in the steeple of the Starry Wisdom sect's church is identified as another form, or manifestation of, Nyarlathotep.

Though Nyarlathotep appears as a character in only four stories and one sonnet (still more than any other Great Old Ones or Outer Gods), his name is mentioned frequently in numerous others. For example, in "The Whisperer in Darkness" Nyarlathotep's name is spoken frequently by the fungi from Yuggoth in a reverential or ritual sense, indicating that they worship or honor the entity.

Despite similarities in theme and name, Nyarlathotep does not feature at all in Lovecraft's story "The Crawling Chaos," (1920/21) an apocalyptic narrative written in collaboration with Elizabeth Berkeley.

I think the Hightowers might not be the pious worshippers of the Seven as people think. I think the Faith was highly corrupted by the Church of Starry Wisdom and the Hightowers are still secret worshippers of the Church of Starry Wisdom. Leyton is probably doing that for a decade, i.e. worshipping an alien god. It is said that even the Wall can be seen from Hightower. That is very similar to the rumors about Denethor while he was using the Palantir and falling under the influence of Sauron, who came from outer space and pretended to be a god.

Pate knew about the glass candles, though he had never seen one burn. They were the worst-kept secret of the Citadel. It was said that they had been brought to Oldtown from Valyria a thousand years before the Doom. He had heard there were four; one was green and three were black, and all were tall and twisted.

When the first shaft of sunlight broke through the clouds to the east, morning bells began to peal from the Sailor's Sept down by the harbor. The Lord's Sept joined in a moment later, then the Seven Shrines from their gardens across the Honeywine, and finally the Starry Sept that had been the seat of the High Septon for a thousand years before Aegon landed at King's Landing. They made a mighty music. Though not so sweet as one small nightingale.

Wow, I never noticed this before! 1400 years ago, 4 glass candles (one green and three black stones) were brought from Valyria to Oldtown and within just 100 years; the Starry Sept became the center of the Faith (but which Faith?). The Church of Starry Wisdom was started by a person who worshipped a black stone that had fallen from the sky.

[Summer Is Coming!]

Pate knew about the glass candles, though he had never seen one burn. They were the worst-kept secret of the Citadel. It was said that they had been brought to Oldtown from Valyria a thousand years before the Doom. He had heard there were four; one was green and three were black, and all were tall and twisted.

When the first shaft of sunlight broke through the clouds to the east, morning bells began to peal from the Sailor's Sept down by the harbor. The Lord's Sept joined in a moment later, then the Seven Shrines from their gardens across the Honeywine, and finally the Starry Sept that had been the seat of the High Septon for a thousand years before Aegon landed at King's Landing. They made a mighty music. Though not so sweet as one small nightingale.

Wow, I never noticed this before! 1400 years ago, 4 glass candles (one green and three black stones) were brought from Valyria to Oldtown and within just 100 years; the Starry Sept became the center of the Faith (but which Faith?). The Church of Starry Wisdom was started by a person who worshipped a black stone that had fallen from the sky.

It's interesting that the glass candles were brought to Oldtown from Valyria. Is there any reference to Valyrian religion? I know that Aegon I made a tacit conversion to the Faith when he was crowned, and some of the Targaryen dragons were supposedly named for Valyrian deities, but do we have other references to them?

It's also interesting that the major settlement in Westeros during the spread of the Valyrian Freehold was Oldtown, yet the Valyrians never conquered it or really colonized Westeros beyond Dragonstone and Driftmark. Is it significant that the Freehold does allows Oldtown to exist under the Hightowers or Gardeners' Reach, yet the candles are sent there?

[RumHam]

Is there any reference to Valyrian religion?

It's said that they allowed worship of of many gods and didn't hold any one above the others. The impression I get is that the dragonlords and powerful sorcerers largely considered themselves above religion.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Wow, I never noticed this before! 1400 years ago, 4 glass candles (one green and three black stones) were brought from Valyria to Oldtown and within just 100 years; the Starry Sept became the center of the Faith (but which Faith?). The Church of Starry Wisdom was started by a person who worshipped a black stone that had fallen from the sky.

The Bloodstone Emperor, who usurped his sister's throne and ushered in the Long Night, when the Maiden-Made-of-Light turned her face away from the world so as not to witness the evil the BE had brought, and the Lion of Night came with demons to unleash his fury upon the wickedness of the World.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Great_Empire_of_the_Dawn It's a cool story. The black stone that the Bloodstone Emperor worshiped seems to be the same kind of oily stone found in interesting locations all over the world, including the base of the lighthouse in Oldtown, and the Seastone Chair (but not the Starry Sept, interestingly).

The Starry Sept was built for the Faith of the Seven, as the Hightowers converted to that faith after the Andal invasion. But it's interesting that they chose the word Starry for it. The walls of the sept are black marble. Also...no one seems to know for sure where the Hightowers came from. The name is from their high tower, but the family itself is said to have been around during the Dawn Age. Maester Yandel even mentions they might have been a seafaring family from another land...Yi Ti's Great Empire maybe?

Apologies if this has been covered up-thread.

[MaesterSam]

It's interesting that the glass candles were brought to Oldtown from Valyria. Is there any reference to Valyrian religion? I know that Aegon I made a tacit conversion to the Faith when he was crowned, and some of the Targaryen dragons were supposedly named for Valyrian deities, but do we have other references to them?

It's also interesting that the major settlement in Westeros during the spread of the Valyrian Freehold was Oldtown, yet the Valyrians never conquered it or really colonized Westeros beyond Dragonstone and Driftmark. Is it significant that the Freehold does allows Oldtown to exist under the Hightowers or Gardeners' Reach, yet the candles are sent there?

Indeed, and it is also interesting that there are 4 of them. Why would you need 4 glass candles in one location? Isn't one enough to see the future and communicate with others far away? Four seems excessive, like having 4 weirwoods or 4 night fires.

[barristan-b]

Indeed, and it is also interesting that there are 4 of them. Why would you need 4 glass candles in one location? Isn't one enough to see the future and communicate with others far away? Four seems excessive, like having 4 weirwoods or 4 night fires.

Marwyn's has lit a black candle that has certain qualities described of how it manipulates light:

White was bright as fresh fallen snow, [ice]

Yellow shone like gold, [gold]

Reds turned to flame, [fire]

And shadows were so black that they looked like holes in the world [shadows]

It's definitely interesting..here's a part of Sam & Marwyn's talk:

"What feeds the flame?" asked Sam.

"What feeds a dragon's fire?" Marwyn seated himself upon a stool. "All Valyrian sorcery was rooted in blood or fire. The sorcerers of the Freehold could see across mountains, seas, and deserts with one of these glass candles. They could enter a man's dreams and give him visions, and speak to one another half a world apart, seated before their candles. Do you think that might be useful, Slayer?"

"We would have no more need of ravens."

It seems to magnify elements of the world through light and possesses magic-like qualities. It makes me think that the normal spring-summer-fall-winter seasons are all encompassed by a magical and non-magical season that makes certain things work or become more apparent.

The oily stone may do the same thing. If Dawn is made of the oily-black stone, add in Valyrian stone made of dragonglass, I wonder what becomes of the swords in times of magic? Maybe that's why it's called lightbringer...(if it's Dawn), it has a distinct light that permeats from it that can obliterate the undead. Marwyn also tells Sam how he'll be needed at the wall in an important way.

Sam most definitely will look to avoid Horn Hill so may not initially take the Roseroad north. Maybe he'll head east first with Arellas/Sarella, bringing them to Starfall...where he discovers Dawn is starting to generate light and they can see stuff just like the glass candles...finding out it needs to be taken to the Wall.

[barristan-b]

Also, I made a map of the Empire of the Dawn dispersal idea:

http://s2.postimg.org/k7txcgm7t/asoiafmap.jpg

[TheSovereignGrave]

Also, I made a map of the Empire of the Dawn dispersal idea:

http://s18.postimg.org/ho2om1xyx/asoiafmap.jpg

Why are the Mazes of Lorath on there? They're not really anything special; they're just made of blocks of regular old stone.

EDIT: They're also in the wrong place; that's not Lorath.

[barristan-b]

Why are the Mazes of Lorath on there? They're not really anything special; they're just made of blocks of regular old stone.

EDIT: They're also in the wrong place; that's not Lorath.

I didn't include them at first but for some reason was thinking they've been disputed as what they're made of so just threw it in there. And yeah it's misplaced :eek:

attempt 2:

http://s2.postimg.org/k7txcgm7t/asoiafmap.jpg

[TheSovereignGrave]

I didn't include them at first but for some reason was thinking they've been disputed as what they're made of so just threw it in there. And yeah it's misplaced :eek:

attempt 2:

http://s2.postimg.org/k7txcgm7t/asoiafmap.jpg

Sorry for this, but what about Yeen?

[barristan-b]

One more attempt haha:

http://s29.postimg.org/72tlxe987/asoiafmap.jpg

[Falcon2908]

I didn't include them at first but for some reason was thinking they've been disputed as what they're made of so just threw it in there. And yeah it's misplaced :eek:

attempt 2:

http://s2.postimg.org/k7txcgm7t/asoiafmap.jpg

I'm curious. What's this about?

[barristan-b]

I'm curious. What's this about?

The world has been shaped by the dispersal of the Empire of the Dawn after a meteor shower brought the oily black stone to Planetos then the Bloodstone Emperor used it for his own power. Different factions fled to different locales.